Quote from: SunBoyAnd, Otha, I see what you mean, but I actually found the "versions" very entertaining at least. If memory doesn't fail, my Corwin resembled quite closely one of them, whereas my Bleys included elements from all three (there where three, right? I don't have the book at hand). And I say "resemble". I didn't actually based them on the handbook's versions, but they (book's) were so well done they actually resembled my own .

Exactly, and a GOOD writer could do something similar with Arden, Rebma, the Golden Circle, or Amber City & Castle. Create something that gives you ideas and helps you along, rather than limiting you and tying you down.  That's what Erick did with the Elders.

It makes no sense to be fucking scared of either descriptions or stats; just of the people writing them.  If we can trust them, their work will be good.  And Erick assures me that we can trust these new guys.

RPGPundit

I don't know about that, Pundit.  Erick's 300/400/500-point Elders did a lot to support the idea that the Elders must be massively more powerful than the PC's, enough so that doing anything else is noteworthy.

It's not really the content that I dislike (please don't use the word 'scared' that's a straw man argument and you know it) it's the metacontent.

Well, you can still give more points to your PCs, and/or a fast advancement rate. I gave a base 120 points, and, 5 years later, had godlike 400-points PCs.

I did a similar thing in my various Throne Wars, with a range going from 150 to 300 points.

=> What you say is only partly true: The corebook surely enforces the idea that Elders are powerfull (shouldn't they be?), but you can easily make the PCs as powerfull as you want them to be.

(Sorry, I'm not really sure about my english there)

Quote from: OthaI don't know about that, Pundit.  Erick's 300/400/500-point Elders did a lot to support the idea that the Elders must be massively more powerful than the PC's, enough so that doing anything else is noteworthy.

Uhm.. yeah. And the current material on Arden indicates that it has a lot of trees. So what?

RPGPundit

My point is that the Elders don't HAVE to be massively more powerful than the PC's, but many GM's don't realize this because Erick makes out like it's a matter of canon, but it isn't, really.

If Merlin, Martin, and Dara (the archetypal Youngers from the first series) had had their stories told on the same epic scale that Corwin's had been, I think that impression would turn out to be flawed.

If you go into second-series, Rinaldo was able to kill Caine.  We don't know how difficult it was, but the fact that it happened should show that if you just look at the books (and not Erick's interpretation of them via his powerful writeups) the Elders don't have to be so unapproachable.

Quote from: CroakerWell, you can still give more points to your PCs...

Yes, and you can give fewer to the Elders.

What I'm saying is that even though giving 100 points to starting PC's is just a suggestion, even though giving them few points for advancement is just a suggestion, even though using the Elders out of the book is a suggestion, it's a strong suggestion and it has a powerful impact on the way Amber is expected to be run.

To get back on topic...

Putting detailed amplifications of Arden/Golden Circle/whathaveyou into print will also have a powerful impact on the way Amber is run.  People will be less surprised by an element that comes out of The Book than one that comes out of the GM's mishmash of an imagination.

Far better, I think, to have something like a concordance, where the book collects all the canon references to a person, place, or thing, so that the GM knows where he's starting from when he makes his own version of that person, place, or thing.

I think the GM's imagination ought to be given a freer range than this kind of content would do.

Quote from: OthaIt's not really the content that I dislike (please don't use the word 'scared' that's a straw man argument and you know it) it's the metacontent.

Do you care to elaborate? What metacontent?
The fact that Elders are tough isn't metaanything, it's quite plain. And I don't think they're "unaproachable". Or even REALLY hard to kill... or at least disable for a while.

What I mean by metacontent:

When you present three options, all of which have some quality in common between the two, it had damn well better be something canon.

Benedict has high warfare skill in every version?  No problem.

Corwin has Greyswandir in every version?  No problem.

Caine has a way to eavesdrop on trumps in every version?  No problem.

Flora has enough swordsmanship ability to beat a middle-ranked Younger?    Er, no.  Just like Fiona, at least some versions of her should have Amber rank warfare.

Llewella is as strong as a middle-ranked Younger?  No.  Same problem.

That's what I mean by meta-content.

I think the 'three examples' model is a bit too constraining.

Now for unknowns like Osric and Finndo, this works just fine.  They're excellent examples of how to build an NPC, if a bit overpowered for my tastes.

Here's a question...

In all of Corwin's Chronicles, did he ever go up against an enemy that had three to five times the resources he had?

Did he ever have an ally that had three to five times the resources he had?

No.

His enemies and allies were his peers.

I find peers to be far more interesting characters for the PC's to interact with than the Elders as presented in the book.

Maybe it's because I'm forty-two years old now, and I've grown out of seeing my mother or anyone of her generation as being, by simple virtue of their generation, just plain better than me.

Oh. THAT metacontent.

I could point out that neither you or your mummy (as far as I know), belong to a royal house of godlike beings with nearly infinite power capable of shaping universes at their whim... but I will not.
Instead of that, I will say that in the novels the Elders ARE undoubtely showed as more powerful than the younglings, just look at lil'Random (during his attempt to rescue Brand) pulverising two dozen of those clawed thingies that chase him and Corwin in the first book, when Merlin can barely survive three hired killers in Amber City. Or look at Coral, little more than a Shadow lass (pardon the pun) after first walking the Pattern... Random is often described as the weaker of the Elders, and yet I really get the distinct impression, throughout the second pentalogy, that he could overpower Merlin in almost any sense. The blood of Dworkin is like a good wine, it improves with time. Or so it seems. Corwin definitely gets better at swordplay during the first series, just as Merlin's control over the Logrus during his.
To put it plainly, the Elders having a few centuries worth of XPs doesn't sound wrong to me.
Oh, and if memory serves, Dara wasn't exactly a youngster to begin with.
And I do not enjoy the implication that either I or anyone else here worships his or her mother, specially coming from someone who is, such as yourself, so prone to call people out on "strawman arguments", flawed reasoning or silly name-calling.
You know, mate, I often enjoy reading your arguments and theories, some of them are quite interesting, but you DO get a wee bit agressive some times.

Quote from: OthaIn all of Corwin's Chronicles, did he ever go up against an enemy that had three to five times the resources he had?

Did he ever have an ally that had three to five times the resources he had?

No.

His enemies and allies were his peers.

Except...

Clearly Dworkin scared him, to the point where he ran like a bunny.

Likewise, Oberon, when all the pretense was dropped, revealed that he had pushed Corwin around like a rag doll (remember, for example, that Oberon beat the snot out of Gerard?).

Yes, his siblings, and those of his generation were definitely his peers.

However, his father, of the next generation, was something else altogether.

And his grandfather, Dworkin, turned out to be the creator of his entire universe... and a bit more than a 'peer.'

You want to run a campaign where the parents of the player characters are peers? Certainly there's no one stopping you.

However, I find that the Elder Amberites are far too interesting for them to be merely the peers of the player characters. If for no other reason than they've been around for hundreds of years, building up some very interesting seasoning.

If you want peers for your PCs there's a simple solution. Just create additional siblings, cousins and others of their generation (arguably, that's what Zelazny did in the Merlin series, with Jurt and the like).

Canon, to me, means doing things the way we see things done in Zelazny's Amber works. So it makes sense that the Elder Amberites would be as superior to the player characters, as the Elder Amberites were inferior to Oberon and Dworkin in the Chronicles.

Erick

Preface: Please read this entire post before replying.  My point is at the bottom of the post.

Dworkin is neither enemy nor ally to Corwin.  Oberon, too, is neither enemy nor ally to Corwin.  They are forces of nature, elements that RZ uses to set the stage for Corwin's story.

The Elders, as they are portrayed in ADRP, are intended as enemies and allies for the PC's... but the points that they get make them forces of nature.

Instead of living in a universe where there are two forces of nature pushing them around, the PC's live in a universe with a dozen or more.  Is it any wonder that one of the first things that some Amber GM's do is kill off, incapacitate, or otherwise remove from play a significant number of the Elders?  There's just too much.

Now let me get back to my original point again, since this seems to be a side track that I keep finding us going down, and it's secondary to my point.

I'm not saying that the Elders should have the same number of points as the Youngers.  I'm not even saying that the Elders can't have vastly more points than the Youngers.  What I am saying is that when the rulebook presents the GM with three options, those being 300, 400, and 500, it's going to take a significant leap of faith and intuition (not impossible, just not easy) to realize that it could be 200, or 150, or 100.

That point is secondary, and an example.  The fact that people argue that it's right and proper that the Elders have far more points than the PC's illustrates my point!  That's a bias that's based on an interpretation of the books that's valid but not the only valid interpretation.

Now on the topic of Arden, Rebma, the Golden Circle, etc., the "Three options" model is, in my opinion, no better than it is for the Elders.  Instead, I'd rather see a concordance of facts that we know from the canon about these places, followed by (perhaps) a long list of questions a GM might consider for what the place is like.

So in the end, it's about preference; a matter of taste.  I don't like the "three options" Elders and I wouldn't like "three options" for Arden or the Golden Circle or anything else.  They're too constraining.  No, they're not actually locked-in constraints, but even as suggestions they go too far.  If someone wants to read what others have done with such places, there are plenty of sources on the 'net.

In summary:  I don't like powerful Elders.  Yes, I recognize there are good arguments for why they should be, but I don't find them compellling compared to th arguments for why they should not.  For this reason, I'm wary of the meta-content that would inevitably show up in a "three options" version of, for example, Arden.  

That's my opinion.  As such, I'm not sure how much discussion it bears.

No, the Elders are not the enemys and allies of the PCs in the game book, not as I've read it.  They are the parents, patrons, and obstacles.

The enemys and allies of the PCs are the other PCs.  

Its just like Erick said; the elders are like forces of nature, at least at first.  There comes a point in every good Amber campaign (if it runs long enough) when the PCs come to realize that they are actually able to deal with these forces; this is the "growing up" moment, not unlike what happens to Merlin in the second series.

RPGPundit

I'm in two minds on the whole intergenerational issue.

On the one hand, Oberon lays out Gerard with a single punch and Dworkin clearly scares the wooblies out of Corwin, but which mystically inclined character didn't?

On the other hand, while Dalt was defeated by Benadict and Eric, neither victory is as complete as the ADRPG godlike rankings of those elders suggest they should be, and Dalt clearly thought he stood a fighting chance, else why would he risk the fight in the first place? Even after loosing to Benedict and knowing how tough the older generation could be he didn't see Eric as being unbeatable.

Merlin, while cautious, is far less frightened of Dworkin's power than Corwin, perhaps because as a sorcerer himself he understands it better.

Personally, it seems reasonable to suggest that those elders who have lived an active life are likely to have the advantage over their kids - if benedict has spent millenia studing military atctics then a relative newcomer shouldn't really expect to compete. But where we are looking at base potential or a more casual level of training then the younger generation should be on a par, or even better if they have begun to specialise. Unless Fiona has hidden skills with a sword then most of the ounger generation, including Merlin (who has some training), Rinaldo and especially Dalt should find her no threat.

This is really no different from any other parent and child relationship where the parents remain at the peak of their performance. A strongman father who is still in training has an advantage over his son who needs to catch up, but that son should easily be able to pick up his seamstress mother and throw her around.

With this in mind, the problems in ADRPG as written stem from two points:

1) the assumption that the elders have a different attribute ranking list than the younger generation, and even the best of the "kids" can't beat the worst of the parents at the start. I seem to recall that this is stated, or at least strongly implied, but it may just be a common misconception that I have encountered.

2) the strange insistence that even those elders with no evident powers should have some hidden reserve of points to draw upon in an emergency wghich would allow them to defeat a starting PC. Flora springs to mind here.

Well stated.

Continuing with the "Meta-Content of Powerfully Superior Elders (even Flora)" idea, here's what I'd like to point out and contribute.

I like the idea of PCs being able to surpass and beat the First-Gen Elders (not often, but still).

I also like when players are surprised when they DO beat NPCs, whose stats, according to the different versions, clearly are superior.

This is done simply with creating new stats for NPCs, which is not uncommon when a GM needs to surprise his/her players (I like 1st gen to be about 150 to 250, perhaps 300 if there's a need for it).

The nice thing is that with the multiple versions of the elders (often ranging from 250 to 400) the PCs are afraid of them; due to the fact that the players get access to the ADRPG books and are aware of the superiority of their powers/stats/artifacts combinations.

Simply because Corwin doesn't understand how Oberon does a trick doesn't mean he can't attune to the Jewel of Judgment and pull a trick on Oberon or Dworkin that they wouldn't have thought of or knew of its possibility.

I don't often use Elders as antagonists, but I want PCs to be able to give them trouble from time to time. As long as the player is being creative (very creative, I suppose , I don't see why he couldn't get away with killing an elder amberite.

In your campaign, have any (lower generation) PCs killed Elder Amberites who should have bested them?