I'll wager, one of our more academically inclined members, could almost do a doctoral thesis on TBP. And how it's a microcosm of a fascist society.

Fascism and values it purports and lauds like strength, capability, strong men, etc are the direct opposite of anything on TBP.  That is late stage communism, the other side of the bent-too-far horseshoe. 

Communism and Fascism are both far left, statist ideologies.  They were widely recognized as such by proponents at the time.  It was only later that fascism was retconned into a far right ideology so that the far left could distance themselves from it.  National Socialism and International Socialism were two sides of the same coin not opposite extremes bent together by some horseshoe.

Quote from: yosemitemike on April 22, 2024, 04:59:59 AMCommunism and Fascism are both far left, statist ideologies.  They were widely recognized as such by proponents at the time.  It was only later that fascism was retconned into a far right ideology so that the far left could distance themselves from it.  National Socialism and International Socialism were two sides of the same coin not opposite extremes bent together by some horseshoe.

Greetings!

Very true, Yosemitemike!

People are so used to this paradigm of seeing them placed on opposite ends of a spectrum, like on a video or the whiteboard, or the chalkboard. This paradigm of Communism=LEFT, Fascism/Nazism=RIGHT, has quite literally been drilled into everyone, over and over, and over again from Gradeschool onwards.

Like branches of a fork, there are different flavours of Communism--and they were always violently opposed to each other.

Stalin had most members of the different flavours of Communism in the Soviet Union shot to death, or sent to be worked to death in Gulags. Mao had different flavours executed throughout Red China in his own consolidation of power.

As a sidenote, like with almost everything though, even in the area of Communism, there seems to always be an exception of some kind. It is interesting to note, that Communist Vietnam, once also guilty of mass purges and a grim consolidation of power, actually also fulfilled their stated main purpose of achieving and establishing Vietnam's independence and security. The Vietnamese also went to war against Communist China after the Vietnam War against us, and proceeded to bleed China dry and send China packing after inflicting severe losses against China. As the years went on, strangely, Communist Vietnam gradually dismantled Communism within Vietnam, bit by bit, replacing it with a Democratic Republic--which is also hugely Capitalist now. I'm not sure as of now how "Democratic" Vietnam is right now--they might be still more of an oligarchy--but I do know they are very much pro-market, pro-Capitalism, and, to a decent degree, do seem to also promote many freedoms and liberties in Vietnam.

The United States has long since normalized economic and trade relations with Vietnam and has also embraced an official military alliance with Vietnam. Vietnam is a member of SEATO, and regularly cooperates with all things military with the US, India, the Philippines, South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan. Furthermore, domestically, Vietnam seems to be very stable, strong, lawful, and orderly, and also dynamic. People throughout Vietnam seem to be very happy and content with the Vietnamese government.

Honestly, however, Vietnam has always been their own thing, even going way back. Ho Chi Minh started out in the 1920's as a guerilla and freedom fighter, seeking freedom and independence from France, which ruled Vietnam as a colony of their Empire. Later, during World War II, Ho Chi Minh bitterly resisted the Empire of Japan, regularly worked as an American ally, and even prepared a kind of copy of the US Constitution for governing an independent Vietnam after the war was won against Japan. The US supported, armed, and lavishly funded Ho Chi Minh, and also pledged our support for Vietnamese independence after Japan was to be defeated.

After the defeat of Japan, and the conclusion of the war, the French manipulated us by exclaiming that if we opposed their claim to their Vietnamese colony, then France would oppose our entire program with NATO in Europe. Europe at the time was seen by Eisenhower, and following administrations, as absolutely central to containing the Soviet Union, and guarding the peace in Europe. So, that is the ugly and frustrating truth about how America eventually found ourselves on the opposite side of a table from Vietnam, who was not just a former ally, but a friend that we promised to assist, and champion, as a friend. When we betrayed Vietnam, Ho Chi Minh embraced the hand of friendship from Communist China and the Soviet Union and proceeded to establish Vietnamese independence under the banner of Communism. China and Russia both were very eager to court Vietnam as an ally, and sent vast shipments of money, supplies, weapons and equipment to Vietnam. As mentioned previously though, Ho Chi Minh would be no one's puppet or slave, and eventually made it clear that Vietnam's primary and absolute focus was on achieving unity, independence, security, and autonomy. Ho Chi Minh and his Vietnamese Communists eventually defeated and threw the French out of Vietnam, after Dien Bien Pgu in 1954, then engaged in civil war against South Vietnam, then fought off and resisted the United States, before they managed to completely unify all of Vietnam in 1975. Then, Vietnam fought another war in defense against Communist China in 1979, as China sought to invade Vietnam and dominate them. China was crushed in defeat in a humiliating and bloody war, suffering very high casualties, in the hundreds of thousands of dead and wounded troops. China withdrew back to China and signed a peace treaty with Vietnam. Vietnam has been at peace ever since then.

Very interesting stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Like Barbie said, "That woman called me a fascist but I don't hold the reins of industry or control the railroads."

   I was not talking about how Fascism operates as a state, I am talking about the honey used to get people on board.  It is the opposite of the sort of degeneracy spouted by leftists.  That is true.  I do not disagree it is a far left philosophy on running the state...but the values it tries to attract followers with are not leftist for the most part. 

  Then again I never saw the original manifestos printed up in Italy either, so I could be basing too much of what its core values were off of screeching leftists.  When exercising and lifting weights is viewed by the far left as activities used to recruit for far right "fascists" it starts to get a bit cloudy.

Well trying to find a specific definition of fascism is a bit hilarious.  I did see where some historian said trying to define it is like trying to nail jelly to a wall.  It seems to remain, to this day just an extremely nebulous term that leftists can call up to throw at enemies...despite there being no solid definition of what it means, represents, or tries to accomplish...past total state control...which is the same thing as communism. 

  As an off topic question for the more politically science educated among you folks...what is an example of an explicitly right wing form of government as it functions on a state scale? 

Quote from: oggsmash on April 22, 2024, 10:17:40 AMThen again I never saw the original manifestos printed up in Italy either, so I could be basing too much of what its core values were off of screeching leftists.  When exercising and lifting weights is viewed by the far left as activities used to recruit for far right "fascists" it starts to get a bit cloudy.

Mussolini was a dedicated Socialist.   

oggsmash, the degeneracy mixed with communism of today is a fairly new thing.  One of the things that made the movement successful in the east was to condemn the corruption and degeneracy of the upper classes.

The issue with getting a definition of fascism is that when they actually clearly define it, it becomes a mirror. Fascism does have a clear definition that's been around over a hundred years now.  It's a form of socialism that is distinct by three characteristics:  1. social regimentation, everyone is given a clear place in society  2. all organizations are subsidiaries of the political party, nothing can be independent or non-political  3. it centers around a closed economic loop that has one group as resources provider and another as a manufacturing and engineering.  #3 was the driving force for  conquest and expansion by both Italy in the 20s and 30s and Germany in the 30s and 40s.

Quote from: SHARK on April 22, 2024, 08:58:54 AMVietnam is a member of SEATO...

Huh? SEATO was dissolved in 1977.

  Given marx was a full on degenerate...not so certain communism has not always been mixed with degeneracy and pushed by degenerates.

Quote from: oggsmash on April 22, 2024, 02:23:47 PMGiven marx was a full on degenerate...not so certain communism has not always been mixed with degeneracy and pushed by degenerates.

Depends on how different the degeneracy of today is from the degeneracy of Marx.

I do understand the new wave of social marxism had to seek for other grievances to rile given the places they were pushing this clap trap didnt have peasants starving and it took a MUCH more degenerate turn.  I think the people pushing it and spreading it all seem to be class alpha degenerates at all times though...the need to dismantle churches points to a clear need to re establish morality from that degenerate point of view early on.