Quote from: ForgottenF on April 04, 2024, 01:32:27 PM
Gygax and company probably deserve more credit than they get for developing an entirely new subgenre of fantasy. Despite not having a label like "space opera" coined for it (that I'm aware of)

"Dungeon Fantasy". That's it.  That's the label.

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I wouldn't be surprised if you found that the real culprit was D&D itself.

That.  No RPG has ever been commercially successful if it doesn't grant the players cool ass-kicking superpowers, and "Seventeen different kinds of Fireball spells (including the Bouncing Betty)!" is the ultimate expression of that.

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D&D is a lot like Star Wars, in that it's a massive genre mashup that ends up producing something wholly unique

As Mike Mornard was fond of saying, "We made up some shit we thought would be fun".  Also like Star Wars, D&D has fallen victim to hagiographers who need there to have been a great deal more thought and intention put into it than there ever was.

This wizard's survivable as well, imo!  Even without the stuff I did.  She would just be relying on her men-at-arms, and 0-level guys for the first adventure.  Totally reasonable!

Another kick in the nuts for AD&D mages is starting money. In D&D everyone starts with 30-180 g.p. to equip their characters. In AD&D magic-users and illusionists only get 20-50 gold. Good luck hiring one bodyguard, let alone two or three!

A simple way to help AD&D magic-users is to use OD&D rules for them. Oh, and the Cover & Concealment Table: learn it; use it; LIVE IT!

  Spell services are surprisingly costly. If you cannot afford them, perhaps letting them in on the party's adventures to gain shares of experience and loot can be arranged...

Want that ratty, filled with holes and faded ink, non-magical treasure map to be Mended? Well, perhaps we can come to an agreement. (Paper is typically made of wood, vellum of skin, and inks typically of dyes, pigments, or charcoal, no? Just like fixing clothes.  )

Quote from: zagreus on April 04, 2024, 05:53:29 PM
This wizard's survivable as well, imo!  Even without the stuff I did.  She would just be relying on her men-at-arms, and 0-level guys for the first adventure.  Totally reasonable!

She sounds like a hoot, doesn't she! The temptation is to not lean too heavily into the Legally Blonde trope. Lean in enough to show some cleavage of course, but tastefully coquettish.

In AD&D Magic users listed age for human was in their 20s.

This and other comments in the book paint the picture of an apprentice who has been cloistered away studying and not much else for most of their formative years.

Quote from: Opaopajr on April 05, 2024, 03:58:17 AM
Spell services are surprisingly costly. If you cannot afford them, perhaps letting them in on the party's adventures to gain shares of experience and loot can be arranged...

Want that ratty, filled with holes and faded ink, non-magical treasure map to be Mended? Well, perhaps we can come to an agreement. (Paper is typically made of wood, vellum of skin, and inks typically of dyes, pigments, or charcoal, no? Just like fixing clothes.  )

Greetings!

Yeah, my friend! Also, while not specifically detailed and explained within the rulebooks, Wizards would certainly be able to earn *huge* amounts of gold, simply by selling their basic services and their intellectual and academic abilities. Spells and Cantrips, all easily inspire regular customers. Light, Identify, and on and on are especially valuable and needed by Adventurers. Many more mundane spells would be in high demand by ordinary, local people everywhere. Love spells, fertility, forune telling, and so on.

Then, going with the fiercely beloved Old School trope of "magic being rare!"--there isn't likely to be too many other Wizards providing competition for such services--thus, enhancing the Wizard's industriousness and wealth potential even more.

Furthermore, intellectually and academically, the Wizards likely knows a great deal of exotic knowledge that others are certainly likely to respect, appreciate, and pay well for. Wizards can very easily become tutors providing academic services and instruction in noble households--even Barons and other great Lords may often seek out personal instruction in History, Philosophy, Engineering, Astrology, Geography, and similar. The Wizard's knowledge of more than the Common tongue also means that the Wizard can easily make gold as an interpreter--not just interpreting speech and meetings, negotiations, and the like, but also translating books, scrolls, and other documents from "X" Language to the Common language. Noble courts, Churches and Temples, Counting Houses, Guilds, as well as any local academic institutions are all likely customers and patrons for the Wizard. Even when some of these jobs are not permanent, the Wizard gains very important *references* from the respected and upper echelons of society--and thus opens up new doors for new, more important and profitable associations for the well-respected and skilled Wizard.

Thus, at any time when the Wizard wants a break from their many duties, projects, and enriching gigs--they can choose to step out and accompany a band of adventurers. Along the way, even relatively low-level Wizards are likely to possess such considerable wealth and prestige, from all of these diverse activities. That means hiring a dozen Hireling bodyguards should not be a problem, even for a relatively low-level Wizard.

Wizards can be extremely capable, especially when played with some intelligence, tenacity, and resourcefulness.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

  I was naughty in a campaign, I made an NPC wizard, who could've been a hireling at the PCs' request, work a day job as a beer keg mover for his Tenser's Floating Disc. He made it so much easier to move barrels of beer by skipping the ramps and stairs issues that he was retained and allowed days off to freelance. He was sullen with himself that it's hard for him to speak up and befriend adventurers to improve his skills (has low CHA).

Wimpy wizard works with longshoreman and has gruff and sarcastic demeanor to match.

I'm always a little proud of my silly NPC hireling creations. Short and sweet and something I'd want to play.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on April 03, 2024, 11:41:42 PM
So what?  Are you suggesting that the medieval setting imposes some requirement to limit the fantasy to what might seem realistic in that setting?  Are you actually arguing for realism when it suits you, but not when it doesn't?

No, I'm suggesting that medieval fantasy is medieval fantasy, and modern world fat bastard fantasy is modern world fat bastard fantasy. Neither is a realistic understanding of how the medieval world worked, nor of how the modern world works, with or without fat bastards.

I don't want sports cars in D&D for the same reason I didn't like Shadowrun. I don't like to mix genres.

Quote from: Omega on April 05, 2024, 04:41:07 AM
This and other comments in the book paint the picture of an apprentice who has been cloistered away studying and not much else for most of their formative years.

Yes. Dweeby weaklings. In other words, your typical gamer. This is why people are uncomfortable with magic-users being weak, it reminds them too much of themselves. Neckbeard and all.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on April 05, 2024, 10:08:25 PM

Quote from: Omega on April 05, 2024, 04:41:07 AM
This and other comments in the book paint the picture of an apprentice who has been cloistered away studying and not much else for most of their formative years.

Yes. Dweeby weaklings. In other words, your typical gamer. This is why people are uncomfortable with magic-users being weak, it reminds them too much of themselves. Neckbeard and all.

There's a lot of projection in this post...

The OD&D magic user proves that the class does not need to be overly weakened for any kind of balance. The combat progression, lack of armor, and inability to use magic swords is restrictive enough without lowering hit points.

I have been unable, until now, to be able to post for this reply because I kept getting Internal Server Error. My previous post was an error cause I somehow hit Post and then everything went haywire for me. Anyway,

To El-V:

Just a quibble for a moment, but 2 of Gandalf's spells were basically made into 6th and 7th lvl Druid spells for AD&D 1E. That is Fire Seeds (when he lights pinecones and hurls them at the Wargs in The Hobbit). The other is Fire Storm (when he sets the woods ablaze near Moria fighting the warg pack lead by the werewolf in The Lord of the Rings). He also hurls the threat to 'shrivel you from tail to snout' at the werewolf, which sounds an awful lot like the 7th lvl Cleric spell Wither (the reverse of Regenerate). He also cast 5th lvl Mage spell Telekinesis on Gimli, pulling his axe from his hand, in The Lord of the Rings when he found Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas on the edge of Fangorn Forest. Gandalf is way more than 'just a 5th lvl Magic-User'.

I have my doubts as to people being uncomfortable with the MU being weak because they identify with it (due to a lack of physicality themselves) I think it is more of a case of lacking in delaying satisfaction.  People are delusional and usually do not realize they are pretty frail and weak unless put into a situation to demonstrate that to themselves...so I don't buy the uncomfortable personal reflection angle.   The AD&D MU is the game on a harder mode until you level up a bit...then it starts to change pretty drastically in the MU's favor.  I think more players want to think of themselves as "doing it all" or at least not dying in a fight with a house cat. 

  I always thought given how powerful Mages are later in the game the steep early ramp for magic users was fine.  The mere existence of the class points to the intention of the game to be a "team" game.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on April 05, 2024, 10:19:06 PM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on April 05, 2024, 10:08:25 PM

Quote from: Omega on April 05, 2024, 04:41:07 AMThis and other comments in the book paint the picture of an apprentice who has been cloistered away studying and not much else for most of their formative years.

Yes. Dweeby weaklings. In other words, your typical gamer. This is why people are uncomfortable with magic-users being weak, it reminds them too much of themselves. Neckbeard and all.

There's a lot of projection in this post...

So strong that it blinded the sun.