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Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know

Started by RPGPundit, July 22, 2022, 11:33:05 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

RPGPundit

Quote from: jhkim on July 25, 2022, 05:19:11 PM


Bolding is mine above. That's exactly what I said. You claimed that it was "citizen policing" like the CHAZ uprising in Seattle. However, the text says that there are professional inspectors and highly-trained guards. It does say that mental illness is treated by their house of healing, but it doesn't say that is the default.


The antifa lunatics who took over the Chaz claimed to be "highly trained local guards".


Quote
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 25, 2022, 04:47:25 PM
And then we get to the key part, where YOU did exactly what you accuse me of doing.  You said above "the book specifies A highly trained guard" (note the "A").
The actual text here says "Highly trained LOCAL guardS". (note the lack of the a, the word local and the s at the end of guard)

YOU changed the text to fit your narrative, wanting to pretend that 3rd World Sigil has a single organized police force. IT DOES NOT. The text makes that very clear. A variety of organizations and councils administer peacekeeping and justice, and (presumably in each ethnic ghetto of 3rd World Sigil) there's (DIFFERENT) 'highly trained' LOCAL guardS (plural), meaning STREET GANGS with QUASI-GOVERNMENT AUTHORITY, exactly of the kind you see these days in Venezuela, Argentina, Seattle, Portland, Zimbabwe and other 3rd world shitholes.

Let me understand. You're trying to claim that

1) "a highly trained guard"
2) "highly trained local guards"

mean utterly different things. Where (1) evidently means a centralized police force, while (2) is enforcement by street gangs?!?

I never claimed that there was a single centralized police force, but I think "highly trained local guards" does not imply street gangs.

Yes it does. If you don't have a centralized police force, what you have is a situation of local people who act on their own authority. Note that there's clearly no law code. There's mob justice in a society where there is no police; meaning that what you get depends on who is really running each cultural ghetto in the citadel, but if this game had an ounce of realism none of it would be good.

Look at the "collectivos" in Venezuela. Or countless street gangs claiming to be "popular defense forces" in Mexico. That's what this is; it's just that Leftists believe that if there was no police then crime would miraculously diminish.
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Myrdin Potter

In the beginning sections of the book, they give general top level advice how to thoughtfully present the materials in the book, especially since many real world cultures are represented, albeit in fantasy dressings.

The advice is somewhat pandering and annoying to read, but I think it is because it is not aimed at me.

I think it is aimed at two audiences - one the overly concerned people (I guess overly woke would be the shorthand) who are so worried about offense that they need some handholding to encourage them that they can play a non-white character even if they are white (or a black character even if they are Asian, etc.).

I think that the other audience it is aimed at is younger and less mature players. Consider this advice from the book:

"Online and Streamed Games. Just as you don't have to breathe fire in real life to play a dragonborn in D&D, you don't need to be from the cultures that inspired the adventures in this book to play characters from them. However, take care to portray characters as three-dimensional people with relatable desires and fears.

One person's culture isn't another's costume. If you dress up, simple outfits are best. Avoid leaning into stereotypes or clothing with real-world religious significance. Instead, focus on "everyday wear" from the cultures you're exploring. Don't change your skin color, alter your features, or emulate hair styles you wouldn't normally have to appear like a different real-world ethnicity. Similarly, avoid mocking real-world accents in your roleplay."

Now that looks pretty pandering and dumb when aimed at an adult. But think about the 12 year old running a game and streaming to her 5 friends but which could be picked up by anyone. In that context, the advice seems perfectly appropriate. Many of the outrage people seem to forget the 10 year olds and 12 year olds that are playing and do not have the real world experience to understand.

WoTC and the authors are just trying to help them to not make fools of themselves online.

Once I remember that all advice is not aimed at me, mid-50's DM that has been playing for over 40 years and who has twice lived in foreign countries where I was a visible minority, I can see the point of it ...

Hzilong

That assumes 12 year olds will either read or care about this advice. My guess? They won't. Kids will be edgy and annoying online and no amount of preaching from a random company will change that. The majority of society agrees that certain words and phrases aren't exactly appropriate in polite society. Yet, fire up any competitive game with voice chat and you will be awash in deluge of these words. There's a reason we call them "gamer" words now. When you dig into who's using them, it's usually younger individuals who are purposefully trolling or showing off how non-conformist they are. The same will probably apply to this attempt at woke proselytizing.
Resident lurking Chinaman

Steven Mitchell

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 26, 2022, 12:11:43 AM

Look at the "collectivos" in Venezuela. Or countless street gangs claiming to be "popular defense forces" in Mexico. That's what this is; it's just that Leftists believe that if there was no police then crime would miraculously diminish.

No matter how many times someone takes the French Revolution to its obvious and inevitable conclusion, there is never any shortage of people to claim it hasn't been tried right yet.  Bonus points when they can put into a fantasy gaming book where there will be no real-world consequences to upset the plan.

The real problem isn't even this, though.  It's that for a product to be useful, it has to be relatable to the human condition in some way that can be applied in a game.  A game run with the Radiant Citadel mindset is ultimately barren, indeed even self-sterilizing.

Cathode Ray

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 23, 2022, 04:36:35 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 23, 2022, 03:17:26 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 23, 2022, 10:42:25 AM
Quote from: Effete on July 23, 2022, 01:36:04 AM
wHiTe PeOpLe ArE nOt a MoNoLiTh.

Though my personal proportions have on occasion veered distressingly close to 1x4x9.

I see what you did there.....

I wondered if anybody would get that joke.  ;D
Another who got the joke.  and how naive to think it stops there... in three dimensions....
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Stephen Tannhauser

Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 27, 2022, 03:58:30 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 23, 2022, 04:36:35 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 23, 2022, 03:17:26 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 23, 2022, 10:42:25 AM
Quote from: Effete on July 23, 2022, 01:36:04 AM
wHiTe PeOpLe ArE nOt a MoNoLiTh.

Though my personal proportions have on occasion veered distressingly close to 1x4x9.

I see what you did there.....

I wondered if anybody would get that joke.  ;D
Another who got the joke.  and how naive to think it stops there... in three dimensions....

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Better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt. -- Mark Twain

STR 8 DEX 10 CON 10 INT 11 WIS 6 CHA 3

Omega

So they claim there is no police then turn around and describe what? Yes. Police. What the hell they think a city guard is? Complete with detectives and all that.

Funny how they say one thing and then do the opposite. Safe place my ass.

Still waiting to get a look at a copy though to see how stupid it all really is.

Myrdin Potter

Quote from: Hzilong on July 27, 2022, 02:20:42 PM
That assumes 12 year olds will either read or care about this advice. My guess? They won't. Kids will be edgy and annoying online and no amount of preaching from a random company will change that. The majority of society agrees that certain words and phrases aren't exactly appropriate in polite society. Yet, fire up any competitive game with voice chat and you will be awash in deluge of these words. There's a reason we call them "gamer" words now. When you dig into who's using them, it's usually younger individuals who are purposefully trolling or showing off how non-conformist they are. The same will probably apply to this attempt at woke proselytizing.

But at least they tried. And I ran enough games in the local games store with kids in them (and encouraged some to just DM) to see that the young DM's do actually do a lot more prep work including reading in advance than I do. I can just wing it. They really cannot. So they prepare more.

jhkim

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 26, 2022, 12:11:43 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 25, 2022, 05:19:11 PM
Let me understand. You're trying to claim that

1) "a highly trained guard"
2) "highly trained local guards"

mean utterly different things. Where (1) evidently means a centralized police force, while (2) is enforcement by street gangs?!?

I never claimed that there was a single centralized police force, but I think "highly trained local guards" does not imply street gangs.

Yes it does. If you don't have a centralized police force, what you have is a situation of local people who act on their own authority. Note that there's clearly no law code. There's mob justice in a society where there is no police; meaning that what you get depends on who is really running each cultural ghetto in the citadel, but if this game had an ounce of realism none of it would be good.

You're painting a binary where there can only possibly be a centralized modern-style police force, or mob justice. But as we discussed earlier, prior to the mid-1800s, there were no centralized modern-style police. Yet I wouldn't say that all 18th century cities were ruled by "mob justice". They had a watch and other figures that were officially authorized by the local government. It's just that all law enforcement didn't come under the same umbrella.

Even in modern times, we often refer to "local police", because police are organized into different districts. That doesn't mean that there is mob rule. Rather, it means that there is delegated authority.

I would also dispute your claim that there is no law code in the citadel. The governance section just before this says "All laws and major decisions of the city are decided by majority vote of the Speakers." It later elaborates "Governance is public, transparent, and participatory. Laws are not static, but evolve to meet new challenges and needs. Subcouncils and committees manage the city under the guidance of the Speakers."

GeekyBugle

Quote from: jhkim on July 27, 2022, 09:02:31 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 26, 2022, 12:11:43 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 25, 2022, 05:19:11 PM
Let me understand. You're trying to claim that

1) "a highly trained guard"
2) "highly trained local guards"

mean utterly different things. Where (1) evidently means a centralized police force, while (2) is enforcement by street gangs?!?

I never claimed that there was a single centralized police force, but I think "highly trained local guards" does not imply street gangs.

Yes it does. If you don't have a centralized police force, what you have is a situation of local people who act on their own authority. Note that there's clearly no law code. There's mob justice in a society where there is no police; meaning that what you get depends on who is really running each cultural ghetto in the citadel, but if this game had an ounce of realism none of it would be good.

You're painting a binary where there can only possibly be a centralized modern-style police force, or mob justice. But as we discussed earlier, prior to the mid-1800s, there were no centralized modern-style police. Yet I wouldn't say that all 18th century cities were ruled by "mob justice". They had a watch and other figures that were officially authorized by the local government. It's just that all law enforcement didn't come under the same umbrella.

Even in modern times, we often refer to "local police", because police are organized into different districts. That doesn't mean that there is mob rule. Rather, it means that there is delegated authority.

I would also dispute your claim that there is no law code in the citadel. The governance section just before this says "All laws and major decisions of the city are decided by majority vote of the Speakers." It later elaborates "Governance is public, transparent, and participatory. Laws are not static, but evolve to meet new challenges and needs. Subcouncils and committees manage the city under the guidance of the Speakers."

So the politburo, but this isn't commie sigil...
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Effete

Quote from: Zalman on July 25, 2022, 06:50:21 PM
Quote from: Effete on July 23, 2022, 04:58:51 PM
Quote(Oooh -- now I'm imagining a city driven by a vast web of necromantic talismans, where the currency everybody uses is literally drawn from one's own life force, and you can never buy more than what you decide you can afford to sacrifice in bodily vitality and health.)

This is actually a pretty cool idea. It's still nightmare fuel, but with the right rules in place, it can make a pretty neat alternative to money.
Assuming everyone's soul has the same "weight" or "worth," and you MUST store souls within your own body, people could trade soul fragments back and forth as if it were currency. You can never buy more than you're worth, and you can never have more soul fragments than what makes up a full soul (i.e., you body can't have more than one soul).

This is very similar to what they did in the film In Time. In that movie, the amount of time you have until death is the currency (but there's no limit to the amount of time you can accumulate).

I had been meaning to watch that, but never, erm... found the time.

RPGPundit

Quote from: jhkim on July 27, 2022, 09:02:31 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 26, 2022, 12:11:43 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 25, 2022, 05:19:11 PM
Let me understand. You're trying to claim that

1) "a highly trained guard"
2) "highly trained local guards"

mean utterly different things. Where (1) evidently means a centralized police force, while (2) is enforcement by street gangs?!?

I never claimed that there was a single centralized police force, but I think "highly trained local guards" does not imply street gangs.

Yes it does. If you don't have a centralized police force, what you have is a situation of local people who act on their own authority. Note that there's clearly no law code. There's mob justice in a society where there is no police; meaning that what you get depends on who is really running each cultural ghetto in the citadel, but if this game had an ounce of realism none of it would be good.

You're painting a binary where there can only possibly be a centralized modern-style police force, or mob justice. But as we discussed earlier, prior to the mid-1800s, there were no centralized modern-style police. Yet I wouldn't say that all 18th century cities were ruled by "mob justice". They had a watch and other figures that were officially authorized by the local government. It's just that all law enforcement didn't come under the same umbrella.

Even in modern times, we often refer to "local police", because police are organized into different districts. That doesn't mean that there is mob rule. Rather, it means that there is delegated authority.

I would also dispute your claim that there is no law code in the citadel. The governance section just before this says "All laws and major decisions of the city are decided by majority vote of the Speakers." It later elaborates "Governance is public, transparent, and participatory. Laws are not static, but evolve to meet new challenges and needs. Subcouncils and committees manage the city under the guidance of the Speakers."

But the section on crime seems to suggest that the law as it pertains to crime devolves back to the local ethnic ghetto that the crime happens in, with a "variety of councils and organizations" and "rehabilitation" (read: no cash bail, criminals blamed on society, free to loot/assault/damage again) and "restorative justice" (read: the criminal says he's sorry for burning down that house, and the local leaders force surviving relatives to accept it) being the "preferred methods" (suggesting that there's no fixed code of criminal law).
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you\'ve played \'medieval fantasy\' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

Effete

Quote from: Myrdin Potter on July 27, 2022, 05:16:09 PM
Quote from: Hzilong on July 27, 2022, 02:20:42 PM
That assumes 12 year olds will either read or care about this advice. My guess? They won't. Kids will be edgy and annoying online and no amount of preaching from a random company will change that. The majority of society agrees that certain words and phrases aren't exactly appropriate in polite society. Yet, fire up any competitive game with voice chat and you will be awash in deluge of these words. There's a reason we call them "gamer" words now. When you dig into who's using them, it's usually younger individuals who are purposefully trolling or showing off how non-conformist they are. The same will probably apply to this attempt at woke proselytizing.

But at least they tried. And I ran enough games in the local games store with kids in them (and encouraged some to just DM) to see that the young DM's do actually do a lot more prep work including reading in advance than I do. I can just wing it. They really cannot. So they prepare more.

I'd have to agree this is true.
I can remember back when I first started GMing, I would read all kinds of advice so I can "get it right" and give the other players a fun experience. Time is the ultimate teacher, though, and nowadays I can tell you for a fact there are plenty of gaming books I own where I haven't even read the first four or five pages. If a chapter header says "What is an RPG" or "Style over Substance" or something, I skip right over it because I've read those types of paragraphs hundreds of times already.

Younger gamers, especially if their passionate, will (in most cases) absorb that shit and commit it to memory. I think that's why many new GMs tend to be rules-lawyers; it's all they know so far.

VisionStorm

Quote from: Myrdin Potter on July 27, 2022, 01:32:25 PM
In the beginning sections of the book, they give general top level advice how to thoughtfully present the materials in the book, especially since many real world cultures are represented, albeit in fantasy dressings.

The advice is somewhat pandering and annoying to read, but I think it is because it is not aimed at me.

I think it is aimed at two audiences - one the overly concerned people (I guess overly woke would be the shorthand) who are so worried about offense that they need some handholding to encourage them that they can play a non-white character even if they are white (or a black character even if they are Asian, etc.).

I think that the other audience it is aimed at is younger and less mature players. Consider this advice from the book:

"Online and Streamed Games. Just as you don't have to breathe fire in real life to play a dragonborn in D&D, you don't need to be from the cultures that inspired the adventures in this book to play characters from them. However, take care to portray characters as three-dimensional people with relatable desires and fears.

One person's culture isn't another's costume. If you dress up, simple outfits are best. Avoid leaning into stereotypes or clothing with real-world religious significance. Instead, focus on "everyday wear" from the cultures you're exploring. Don't change your skin color, alter your features, or emulate hair styles you wouldn't normally have to appear like a different real-world ethnicity. Similarly, avoid mocking real-world accents in your roleplay."

Now that looks pretty pandering and dumb when aimed at an adult. But think about the 12 year old running a game and streaming to her 5 friends but which could be picked up by anyone. In that context, the advice seems perfectly appropriate. Many of the outrage people seem to forget the 10 year olds and 12 year olds that are playing and do not have the real world experience to understand.

WoTC and the authors are just trying to help them to not make fools of themselves online.

Once I remember that all advice is not aimed at me, mid-50's DM that has been playing for over 40 years and who has twice lived in foreign countries where I was a visible minority, I can see the point of it ...

I have read statements or seen videos using language almost identical to that paragraph before and they weren't directed 12 year olds, but about chastising people with woke messaging. "One person's culture isn't another's costume", for example, is taken from the "Not Your Costume" campaign that started around a decade ago of overly sensitive people complaining about Halloween costumes. This isn't aimed at 12 year olds. It's aimed at everyone and intended to reinforce woke ideals as a cultural norm.

Valatar

Let's be fair, almost every fictional setting has some conceits that don't hold up well to scrutiny, this is hardly unique.  Just take much-loved Star Trek, it doesn't take much pondering to reach, "If energy and materials are now basically free and nobody has to work, wouldn't like 95% of humanity turn into shut-ins getting laid in a holodeck 24/7 and bring the species to ruin?"

The trick in this instance is that this setting's conceits line up with the progressive talking points where our society would be improved by doing these things, and in their setting those things just happen to work out without a hitch and everyone's super happy about it.  It's wish-fulfillment of a particularly blatant stripe.  I think it would actually be fertile ground for a good setting, where it shows that government and those social constructs, then addresses weaknesses where bad actors have taken advantage of loopholes to pervert the noble intentions, or corruption has been creeping in through human nature or actual corrupt supernatural beings.  But of course that would be bad.