Quote from: jeff37923 on July 06, 2022, 03:35:39 PM

Quote from: Battlemaster on July 06, 2022, 03:27:10 PM
Oh Jesus Christ, does every fucking game thread here have to mention being  anti woke?  Does everyone  here have to fuckibg constantly virture signal how anti woke they are?

The anti woke crowd is as fucking tiresome as the woke crowd.

Methinks thou dost protest too much.....

Yeah, exactly. Sounds like you might need to take a break from therpgsite for your mental health Battlemaster.

Quote from: zircher on July 06, 2022, 02:32:55 PM
You could try asking on the MeWe group - Inglorious OSR.  But, they kind of lean hard the other way.
https://mewe.com/join/ingloriousosr

Hey zircher. Congrats on joining the 'banned from TBP' group. LOL

If you're recruiting for online play it's easy, just go to Dragonsfoot.org - an OSR site but there's plenty of players of new editions, and aggressively apolitical, where site is anti-woke and tends to attract the more 'colourful' personalities. 

OP, you're in a rough spot. You enjoy PF2e which is the bastion of woketardia, but want PF2e players who aren't woketards. That's a tough call.

The suggestion to game face-to-face is the best call. The internet is festering shithole and online gaming seems to bring out the worst of the basement dwellers.

In-person gaming suddenly becomes self-selecting. The more social skills a person has, the less likely they're woke. The more a person can interact like a normal upright human among others at a table, the less likely they'll go woke at that table.

What MIGHT help with player recruitment is using the PF2e system BUT with your own game world and your own adventures (or conversion of an obviously not-woke setting). Then, you would at least draw attention for people who are turned off by Paizo's shitty setting.

There was a Scarred Lands setting for 3e that was quite good and I'm sure all that stuff would convert easily to PF2e based on the shared D20 DNA.

Good luck and welcome to Mos Eisley.

I can't help you finding your players, as I live in a different country and over here the cancer of modern "politics" (the quote is important) is not so gripping. Having said that, I can give you some suggestions about not throwing out the baby with the water.

Every game - and, in a way, every character - has a political approach. This is unavoidable. My longest running D&D Campaign was based on the Iran-Contra scandal transferred in a fantasy milieu. That was political: a condemnation for the rulers of a country to ditch laws and traditional values "for the greater good" (in my case they were the gods themselves). A key NPC, a female druid of Eldath in the Forgotten Realms, was a total pacifist. I never rolled a single attack die for her, not even against constructs like golems or living statues. She was unyieldingly convinced that even the simplest form of violence led nowhere. That was a political statement. And so on. But my druidette - a character who became much beloved by the players - was never "preachy" about her beliefs (beliefs that, if anything, mirrored those of Salvor Hardin in Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" - not the adaptation by Apple of course).

Then, in my current Call of Cthulhu campaign, a player decided that he wanted to play a transgender male-to-female prostitute and famous card reader. I did some research and, to my surprise, transgenderism was already a thing in 1920. The idea works because she has a powerful pimp, works in a "classy" brothel, and people are attracted by the idea of an "unusual" experience. And she is also a killer card reader - literally (you just don't spend magic points in Arkham without someone losing a limb). All of this has roots in the historical research I did. So, did our group all of sudden became "woke"? No. It was an interesting character concept and we are exploring it (to be clear, I'm running a realistic 1920s campaign). And I guess that the woke crowd would scream anyway at the idea of a transgender character being a prostitute in need of a protector - history be damned.

That's, IMHO, what "freedom in my table" means. Do what you want. Don't ditch something because "it is woke". There is a deep and important difference between a concept and the same concept being now in hostage of some fundamentalist and twisted by them beyond recognition. Exploring diversity in the most ample meaning of the word is, historically, part of the fun of RPGs. Pathfinder 2E is riddled by the now chilling "diverse" and "inclusive" mantras (which, today, mean anything but BTW). My take is that if you need for the rulebook to enable you to include a certain content, then you are not understanding RPGs at all but just a slave to the written word.

So, my suggestion is to avoid "anti-wokeness" out of principle. That's not freedom. There is no point in becoming the mirror image of something. The transgender character in Call of Cthulhu (inspired by Jaye Davidson in "The Crying Game") works because the group understood that there are Things beyond human pettiness. Still, the player is very conscious of the social perils inherent to the transgender condition in the 1920s (ironically, the best protection was the idea that something "like that" was not possible). This creates both an interesting situation and narrative tension. No other player objected, nor this character was born to make a political statement. True, technically the acceptance by the others is political, but based of facts; and the 1920s milieu is not twisted to accept the idea at all.

The only occurrence where a specific set of beliefs should be respected, IMHO, is when you play in a setting based on an author's creation. Concepts like transgenderism or homosexuality in a "Lord of the Rings" campaign shouldn't be allowed (which is why the woke crowd is currently besieging Tolkien's works and Tolkien himself to "prove" the opposite - not unlikely as why Sauron besieged Gondor). OTOH, running Ursula Le Guin "Earthsea" with only white characters... well... and, of course, if you choose to run a campaign in "The Left Hand of Darkness"... So, even in published backgrounds there is space for everyone. Choose what you like.

Find respectful players, give back the original meaning to words like "diverse" and "inclusive", have fun in exploring ideas very different from your own and, generally speaking, have fun.

Oh dear, a lot of replies! Thank you to everyone who welcomed me. Older forums are so much more pleasant than social media...

I won't reply to every single person, if that's alright. The ideas in general are quite good. In short, try to find people IRL, try to find older people, try to do your own or a different setting and/or try to get into OSR style games. Which, honestly, I've never played specifially OSR-like, and I'm not sure I like everything about it, but it generally looks like something I could find fun.

The local games shop shut down during the pandemic (which is honestly a damn shame cause it was how I got into the hobby in the first place), but I guess it's time to try to challenge myself to be more social outside of that.

Quote from: Dropbear on July 06, 2022, 08:28:37 PM
To the OP: Welcome! I've had a lot of the same difficulties wanting to host an apolitical game. My best advice is to simply ignore woke or anti-woke sentiments presented in any gaming materials, and use only what you want from the materials you present for your games. Change what you disagree with to fit how you want to run your game.

And as for players, if they recognize that you have changed something and make a fuss at how you present the materials, advise that you took artistic license with the game matter presented to you just as that same game matter has been artistically changed up to suit the play style of those who re-wrote it in the first place. After all, most of the setting and materials for PF2 and 5E aren't really original or new, they are simply rewrites from a new crop of game designers. You are merely reinterpreting their reinterpretations, and they should not take offense or issue with it.

That might be a hard sell to the crowds most of these two games are written for these days, but it is worth a shot to run the game you want to.

I simply don't bother with 5E anymore unless it isn't a WotC product after my last fiasco. I hosted a one shot at an open table of Ravenloft in a game store and changed Dr. Viktra Mordenheim's name to Dr. Viktor Mordenheim and presented him as male rather than female and explained after a player interrupted to tell me I was "doing it wrong" that I would be using the original characters from Ravenloft and not the remade characters at my game, and it caused three of the players to have a hissy fit and demand I run it as written. I gave them the option to play the game as I presented it or step away from my table, and they left after "reporting" me to the game store owner.

Since then, my adverts for games have largely been for neither of those games, but I always write in them that I as the GM reserve the right to run, modify, and change any prewritten adventure at my table and no player should expect it to be run as written. I would advise that disclaimer for every GM seeking to run a game when they aren't sure who might be showing up at the table.

Oh, dear. That does absolutely sound horrible. I've definitely heard of people who take issues with, say, people modifying Curse of Strahd (which is afaik the 'token' 5e adventure). Which confuses me because I did run Icewind Dale as one of my first DM things, and I felt forced to modify a lot in order to make it make sense. WotC doesn't strike me as particularly good storytellers or module writers in general. That being said, I suppose changing genders could absolutely lead you to being 'reported'...

It's definitely an issue with modern games, too, that everyone is too exposed to the media part. TTRPGs are run by the GM, and the GM ultimately makes the world according to his or her vision. When players have very set expectations, things can get weird. I get that rules are there to make things fairer, but at the same time, I feel like expectations are that the game should run like it's hosted by a celebrity GM somewhere and people who aren't into that style of game are objectively wrong.

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 06, 2022, 05:09:45 PM

Quote from: splishbuzz on July 06, 2022, 03:37:56 PM

Quote from: Battlemaster on July 06, 2022, 03:27:10 PM
Oh Jesus Christ, does every fucking game thread here have to mention being  anti woke?  Does everyone  here have to fuckibg constantly virture signal how anti woke they are?

The anti woke crowd is as fucking tiresome as the woke crowd.

I apologize for apparently brushing against a sensitive issue; I am a newcomer from a space where it's genuinely difficult to find online resources specifically for this, but I suppose if it helps, I won't add to it further in the future.

As for the other replies, I am grateful for the responses. Meeting in person is definitely something that's... probably been a bit lost on my generation, sadly, but definitely something that should happen more.

You don't have to apologize for shit. Battlemaster is perpetually butthurt and suffers from Trump Derangement Syndrome.

As for finding apolitical or non-woke gamers, try veterans. I have yet to meet a military veteran who is woke. I am sure that there are some out there, but I haven't met any yet.

Also, while Pathfinder 2e is known to be woke, nothing whatsoever is stopping you from playing a woke game like it was normal. Just throw out the woke garbage. Although this may mean tossing the entire game in the case of Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote and Crow.

Good luck with your search!

Sorry, but 'Thirsty Sword Lesbians' sounds like the funniest shit ever. XD

Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 06, 2022, 08:07:46 PM
i would suggest places like 4chan's /tg/ or saidit.net, or some other freespeech site i don't know right now.

I will say I thought you were a man with how you type, but when you revealed yourself to be a woman I was taken back. Of course I don't mind you being a woman.

There's probably a reason why I at one point thought I could be male. I'm disagreeable by nature, and in a group of female friends I'm usually the most assertive. Thankfully those are pretty good qualities for being a GM, and my husband appreciates it since he much prefers being a player lol. Either way, no offense taken.

'Free speech' platforms are a decent option, but there's also a lot of overly political people. I guess not woke, but you do actually find the kind of people who genuinely are anti-DnD (and similar) because it's a satanic game, or at the very least think it's a children's play pretend game that adults shouldn't engage in lest they soften their mind or whatnot. Ah, the unfortunate nature of life.

Quote from: Reckall on July 07, 2022, 05:12:20 AM
I can't help you finding your players, as I live in a different country and over here the cancer of modern "politics" (the quote is important) is not so gripping. Having said that, I can give you some suggestions about not throwing out the baby with the water.

Every game - and, in a way, every character - has a political approach. This is unavoidable. My longest running D&D Campaign was based on the Iran-Contra scandal transferred in a fantasy milieu. That was political: a condemnation for the rulers of a country to ditch laws and traditional values "for the greater good" (in my case they were the gods themselves). A key NPC, a female druid of Eldath in the Forgotten Realms, was a total pacifist. I never rolled a single attack die for her, not even against constructs like golems or living statues. She was unyieldingly convinced that even the simplest form of violence led nowhere. That was a political statement. And so on. But my druidette - a character who became much beloved by the players - was never "preachy" about her beliefs (beliefs that, if anything, mirrored those of Salvor Hardin in Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" - not the adaptation by Apple of course).

Then, in my current Call of Cthulhu campaign, a player decided that he wanted to play a transgender male-to-female prostitute and famous card reader. I did some research and, to my surprise, transgenderism was already a thing in 1920. The idea works because she has a powerful pimp, works in a "classy" brothel, and people are attracted by the idea of an "unusual" experience. And she is also a killer card reader - literally (you just don't spend magic points in Arkham without someone losing a limb). All of this has roots in the historical research I did. So, did our group all of sudden became "woke"? No. It was an interesting character concept and we are exploring it (to be clear, I'm running a realistic 1920s campaign). And I guess that the woke crowd would scream anyway at the idea of a transgender character being a prostitute in need of a protector - history be damned.

That's, IMHO, what "freedom in my table" means. Do what you want. Don't ditch something because "it is woke". There is a deep and important difference between a concept and the same concept being now in hostage of some fundamentalist and twisted by them beyond recognition. Exploring diversity in the most ample meaning of the word is, historically, part of the fun of RPGs. Pathfinder 2E is riddled by the now chilling "diverse" and "inclusive" mantras (which, today, mean anything but BTW). My take is that if you need for the rulebook to enable you to include a certain content, then you are not understanding RPGs at all but just a slave to the written word.

So, my suggestion is to avoid "anti-wokeness" out of principle. That's not freedom. There is no point in becoming the mirror image of something. The transgender character in Call of Cthulhu (inspired by Jaye Davidson in "The Crying Game") works because the group understood that there are Things beyond human pettiness. Still, the player is very conscious of the social perils inherent to the transgender condition in the 1920s (ironically, the best protection was the idea that something "like that" was not possible). This creates both an interesting situation and narrative tension. No other player objected, nor this character was born to make a political statement. True, technically the acceptance by the others is political, but based of facts; and the 1920s milieu is not twisted to accept the idea at all.

The only occurrence where a specific set of beliefs should be respected, IMHO, is when you play in a setting based on an author's creation. Concepts like transgenderism or homosexuality in a "Lord of the Rings" campaign shouldn't be allowed (which is why the woke crowd is currently besieging Tolkien's works and Tolkien himself to "prove" the opposite - not unlikely as why Sauron besieged Gondor). OTOH, running Ursula Le Guin "Earthsea" with only white characters... well... and, of course, if you choose to run a campaign in "The Left Hand of Darkness"... So, even in published backgrounds there is space for everyone. Choose what you like.

Find respectful players, give back the original meaning to words like "diverse" and "inclusive", have fun in exploring ideas very different from your own and, generally speaking, have fun.

I very much sympathise with your comment!
I didn't want to preface this with a whole~ endless comment, but I actually tick a lot of 'diversity boxes' irl, being mixed raced, a woman, and technically LGBT - (I won't associate with the 'community' any more, but I dated women before I met my husband.) Because I'm half asian, I actually grew up partially Buddhist though I consider myself an atheist. Heck, I'm a vegan of 14 years, which is not a very conservative position at all.

I'm not a close-minded person. But 'diversity' in our current age isn't diversity, and diversity of opinion is not tolerated well. I don't want to play a utopia. I'm a naturally darker GM and player. I don't want to play in a perfect society where there's no conflict, and I want to be able to explore topics such as racism etc because I do believe these things are part of the human condition. And despite the fact that we sometimes play gnomes and orcs and fishmen and ratpeople, RPGs at the core are about the human experience, imho. It's about overcoming challenges and companionship within the group of players.

What bothers me are idologues, and I will admit that part of it is because I have a lot of experience being yelled at on the internet. And yeah, sure, you want to grow a thicker skin probably, but I was hoping to just, avoid the kind of people that are frankly indoctrinated. You don't need to 'hate' trans people to be sceptical of their glorification, or question whether surgery and affirmative care actually helps people. There were historically a lot of people who performed the opposite gender role! Many women acted male because they wanted agency in their lives. Many men historically have given up their masculine roles. It doesn't mean necessarily that they were all trans in the modern sense, but it did happen. And nuance is actually very lacking in the sphere of ideologues.

TL;DR - absolutely agree that the modern woke are not diverse and not inclusive, and I am looking for players that are grounded in reality. Unfortunately, I do happen to live in the UK, where this entire thing tends to be very mainstream... :/

iirc isn't buddhism compatible with atheism (In the literal sense; no gods or higher beings) because both say there is no creator? And buddhism is less reliant on gods than other religions? unless you think there is no supernatural element to reality at all, in that case that's okay, just don't act like an ass to others that think differently.

i hope this doesn't go too off topic

Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 07, 2022, 06:42:32 AM
iirc isn't buddhism compatible with atheism (In the literal sense; no gods or higher beings) because both say there is no creator? And buddhism is less reliant on gods than other religions? unless you think there is no supernatural element to reality at all, in that case that's okay, just don't act like an ass to others that think differently.

i hope this doesn't go too off topic

There are different strains of Buddhism, some of which are indeed compatible with atheism, though often Buddha himself is worshipped as a God. At its core, though, you're right, Buddha mostly sets out to be a teacher, not a leader.

But the 'don't act like an ass' is probably a good way to approach everything, including TTRPGs. (: I am not perfect, I have a temper sometimes and definitely do occasionally let my emotions overrun me, but I do try my best to be tolerant, and see things from the other perspective. I definitely see the value of spirituality! At the end of the day, though, I feel like in the RPG space, it's fairly easy to say 'We have disagreements at the table, we just won't play on the same table', and leave it at that. It happens more often when you want different things from the game.

Quote from: splishbuzz on July 07, 2022, 07:00:07 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 07, 2022, 06:42:32 AM
iirc isn't buddhism compatible with atheism (In the literal sense; no gods or higher beings) because both say there is no creator? And buddhism is less reliant on gods than other religions? unless you think there is no supernatural element to reality at all, in that case that's okay, just don't act like an ass to others that think differently.

i hope this doesn't go too off topic

There are different strains of Buddhism, some of which are indeed compatible with atheism, though often Buddha himself is worshipped as a God. At its core, though, you're right, Buddha mostly sets out to be a teacher, not a leader.

But the 'don't act like an ass' is probably a good way to approach everything, including TTRPGs. (: I am not perfect, I have a temper sometimes and definitely do occasionally let my emotions overrun me, but I do try my best to be tolerant, and see things from the other perspective. I definitely see the value of spirituality! At the end of the day, though, I feel like in the RPG space, it's fairly easy to say 'We have disagreements at the table, we just won't play on the same table', and leave it at that. It happens more often when you want different things from the game.

that's a nice way to approach things.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 06, 2022, 10:05:34 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 06, 2022, 03:35:39 PM

Quote from: Battlemaster on July 06, 2022, 03:27:10 PM
Oh Jesus Christ, does every fucking game thread here have to mention being  anti woke?  Does everyone  here have to fuckibg constantly virture signal how anti woke they are?

The anti woke crowd is as fucking tiresome as the woke crowd.

Methinks thou dost protest too much.....

Yeah, exactly. Sounds like you might need to take a break from therpgsite for your mental health Battlemaster.

Fuck you. I'm finally as sick of the anti woke crowd as I am the woke crowd. I wish you'd both just fucking die already. Get rid of the woke left and the pepe right.

Quote from: Battlemaster on July 07, 2022, 08:07:30 AM

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 06, 2022, 10:05:34 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 06, 2022, 03:35:39 PM

Quote from: Battlemaster on July 06, 2022, 03:27:10 PM
Oh Jesus Christ, does every fucking game thread here have to mention being  anti woke?  Does everyone  here have to fuckibg constantly virture signal how anti woke they are?

The anti woke crowd is as fucking tiresome as the woke crowd.

Methinks thou dost protest too much.....

Yeah, exactly. Sounds like you might need to take a break from therpgsite for your mental health Battlemaster.

Fuck you. I'm finally as sick of the anti woke crowd as I am the woke crowd. I wish you'd both just fucking die already. Get rid of the woke left and the pepe right.

Cope, seethe, mald

Quote from: Battlemaster on July 07, 2022, 08:07:30 AM

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 06, 2022, 10:05:34 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 06, 2022, 03:35:39 PM

Quote from: Battlemaster on July 06, 2022, 03:27:10 PM
Oh Jesus Christ, does every fucking game thread here have to mention being  anti woke?  Does everyone  here have to fuckibg constantly virture signal how anti woke they are?

The anti woke crowd is as fucking tiresome as the woke crowd.

Methinks thou dost protest too much.....

Yeah, exactly. Sounds like you might need to take a break from therpgsite for your mental health Battlemaster.

Fuck you. I'm finally as sick of the anti woke crowd as I am the woke crowd. I wish you'd both just fucking die already. Get rid of the woke left and the pepe right.

Hey dude, no skin off my teeth. You're a valued member of the community. Just trying to provide some perspective. I've had to take time off from the internets before.

Quote from: Battlemaster on July 07, 2022, 08:07:30 AM

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 06, 2022, 10:05:34 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 06, 2022, 03:35:39 PM

Quote from: Battlemaster on July 06, 2022, 03:27:10 PM
Oh Jesus Christ, does every fucking game thread here have to mention being  anti woke?  Does everyone  here have to fuckibg constantly virture signal how anti woke they are?

The anti woke crowd is as fucking tiresome as the woke crowd.

Methinks thou dost protest too much.....

Yeah, exactly. Sounds like you might need to take a break from therpgsite for your mental health Battlemaster.

Fuck you. I'm finally as sick of the anti woke crowd as I am the woke crowd. I wish you'd both just fucking die already. Get rid of the woke left and the pepe right.

I assure you this is 100% on you.

You come into this thread losing your shit cuz the OP (who's clearly not a ring-winger) brought up a valid concern about finding players who don't try to insert politics into their game. So you had to go off about being sick of anti-woke people when all the OP did was bring up problems they'd had with wokeness in gaming and you yourself ended up in this board due to problems with woke idiots in other boards IIRC. Then someone tells you maybe you need to take a break from these boards, so you go off at them them too and reassert you hate screed.

I've seen your posts a bunch of times over at the political side of the boards whenever the gaming side is dead and I dare venture into that cesspool cuz my curiosity gets the best of me. And every single time I run into your posts you're going off on some inarticulate and poorly spelled out hate screed about how you wish horrible death to come to right-wingers/Republicans if/when a US civil war finally brakes out, or something to that effect, even as you imply in the same post that it's really the OTHER side who're the complete violent lunatic retards. And your posts don't even refute anything they actually said, you're just angry that you saw someone post something you took offence to, so you go off on a deranged screed that doesn't even reply to what they're actually saying, just some partisan talking point or one-sided strawman you built in your head about what all people in "their" side believe or are collectively and single-handedly guilty off (cuz apparently Democrats played no role in fucking up the US).

If you're so fragile that you can't cope with reading posts from people you mildly disagree with and aren't equipped to provide a proper reply to what they're actually saying, maybe do what I do (most of the time) and don't spend hours on end at the political side of the boards frying your brain in online refuse and contributing most of it yourself.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 07, 2022, 10:32:30 AM

Quote from: Battlemaster on July 07, 2022, 08:07:30 AM

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 06, 2022, 10:05:34 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 06, 2022, 03:35:39 PM

Quote from: Battlemaster on July 06, 2022, 03:27:10 PM
Oh Jesus Christ, does every fucking game thread here have to mention being  anti woke?  Does everyone  here have to fuckibg constantly virture signal how anti woke they are?

The anti woke crowd is as fucking tiresome as the woke crowd.

Methinks thou dost protest too much.....

Yeah, exactly. Sounds like you might need to take a break from therpgsite for your mental health Battlemaster.

Fuck you. I'm finally as sick of the anti woke crowd as I am the woke crowd. I wish you'd both just fucking die already. Get rid of the woke left and the pepe right.

Hey dude, no skin off my teeth. You're a valued member of the community. Just trying to provide some perspective. I've had to take time off from the internets before.

Internet spat fights are bad for your mental health and just drag you into hours long discussions that mess up your productivity and provide NOTHING of value to your life. Best thing you can do if you can't deal with stuff you read online is GTFO and take a long break, instead of venting and getting dragged into them.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 06, 2022, 10:09:34 PM

Quote from: zircher on July 06, 2022, 02:32:55 PM
You could try asking on the MeWe group - Inglorious OSR.  But, they kind of lean hard the other way.
https://mewe.com/join/ingloriousosr

Hey zircher. Congrats on joining the 'banned from TBP' group. LOL

Howdy hey!

It took some effort, about six months ago I asked them to close my account and they refused.  [They probably needed the numbers or something to show to their advertisers.]  I didn't think asking them about satire was a perma-ban-worthy offense.  But, I guess I forced them to think and they panicked.