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Can There be an Ethical Thief?

Started by DeadVerySoon, January 18, 2022, 04:04:26 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Pat

Quote from: DeadVerySoon on January 18, 2022, 06:17:34 PM

You've completely confused the situation. There is a huge difference between ABLE AND UNWILLING to pay (selfish prick scumbag who makes life bad for everyone)  and UNABLE but taking away no potential sale, due to being unable and a virtual product, not tangible.
Name one person in a country with access to the internet and a PDF viewer who can't pay $10 for a PDF of a game that they could play for years.

There's not this razor's edge between starving to death in 3 weeks, and buying a game. You could buy that avocado at Walmart instead of Whole Foods, or buy a bag of rice instead. Or more likely, in any first world country, not buy 2 expressos one morning, or maybe put off your purchase of a new big screen TV for 30 seconds.

It's not between the unable and the unwilling. It's all about the entitled; people who think they are owed more than they're willing to save and pay for.

Rob Necronomicon

#16
it depends...

Ethical 'thievery' could be legitimate if your doing some good with it. But then how do we define thievery, and what good is it doing? I suppose you could be an ethical hacker as an example - stealing data, then passing it on to the authorities to stop a suspected terrorist attack. But technically you are still stealing.

The only way I think you can ethically steal a pdf is if the game is long out of print. Then you are doing some good by playing and preserving the game, and passing it on for others to enjoy.

Because you can't afford something doesn't entitle you to have it. And while you may not be stealing per se, you are partaking in copyright infringement and stealing the I.P.

However, some thievery may be more ethical than others.  ;D

As OP said, paying for a pdf is pretty low bar. It's not like you're buying a Ducati or something. A pdf is only a few of quid (in most cases).



GnomeWorks

Quote from: DeadVerySoon on January 18, 2022, 06:17:34 PMIt appears as if you are saying that " When someone who could pay, but chooses to  steal instead, the  owner  would not be harmed, because there never would have been a payment"

Your logic is flawed. There IS harm if the thief COULD have paid, but simply chooses not to do so.  That is a lost potential sale, when the thief is ABLE but unwilling, to pay.

No, my logic is not flawed. You are conflating ability and willingness.

Just because an individual is able to pay for something, does not mean they would do so.

If a person would not pay for a digital item in the first place, then their theft of a copy of said item is not a loss for the producer of the item because there was not going to be a sale to begin with.

QuoteUnder your model, those who CAN pay but do not  destroy the motive and ability for others to create and sell. That is an actual loss of a sale, stolen potential, because the money COULD HAVE BEEN PAID.

Just because it could does not mean that it would have.

Whether or not such behavior that I am discussing - ability to pay, but unwillingness to pay, resulting in theft of digital product - destroys motivations for production is a bit of a broader scope. You could probably make a cogent argument for your position, but I'm not sure it would hold water all that well.
Mechanics should reflect flavor. Always.
Playing: Cidallia "Cid" Rudolfeau, Human Gadgeteer Detective in Ironfang Invasion (D&D 5e).
Running: Chrono Break: Dragon Heist + Curse of the Crimson Throne (D&D 5e).
Planning: Rappan Athuk (D&D 5e).

jeff37923

No matter how you slice it, it's still bologna.....
"Meh."

DeadVerySoon

#19
Ok, this thread is closed. Too many dishonest asshole trolls on this site.

DeadVerySoon

#20
Ok, this thread is closed. Too many dishonest asshole trolls on this site.

Rob Necronomicon

Quote from: DeadVerySoon on January 18, 2022, 09:48:46 PM
A person who could NOT afford to pay, does no harm.

But that would assume a few things though. Like, that person would never pass it on to others. And also, that they 'would never' buy the pdf in the first place. But should they ever be in a position, to be able to 'buy' the pdf in question, but then don't, then they are harming the author, in a way.

There are too any variable to say that they are doing no harm in my opinion.

DeadVerySoon

#22
Ok, this thread is closed. Too many dishonest asshole trolls on this site.

DeadVerySoon

#23
Ok, this thread is closed. Too many dishonest asshole trolls on this site.

Pat

Quote from: DeadVerySoon on January 18, 2022, 09:46:58 PM
Quote from: Pat on January 18, 2022, 07:51:22 PM
Quote from: DeadVerySoon on January 18, 2022, 06:17:34 PM

You've completely confused the situation. There is a huge difference between ABLE AND UNWILLING to pay (selfish prick scumbag who makes life bad for everyone)  and UNABLE but taking away no potential sale, due to being unable and a virtual product, not tangible.
Name one person in a country with access to the internet and a PDF viewer who can't pay $10 for a PDF of a game that they could play for years.

There's not this razor's edge between starving to death in 3 weeks, and buying a game. You could buy that avocado at Walmart instead of Whole Foods, or buy a bag of rice instead. Or more likely, in any first world country, not buy 2 expressos one morning, or maybe put off your purchase of a new big screen TV for 30 seconds.

It's not between the unable and the unwilling. It's all about the entitled; people who think they are owed more than they're willing to save and pay for.

PDF viewers are free, as is library access to the internet. 
You are the one who sounds entitled
In most first world countries. But Bangladesh? Nigeria? It's going to be a bit more erratic.

I included literally everyone in all those countries who can meet the bare minimum standard of a computer and internet, and your response was completely oblivious to anything except your own first world privilege.

Tell me again how I'm the one who sounds entitled.

DeadVerySoon

#25
Ok, this thread is closed. Too many dishonest asshole trolls on this site.

DeadVerySoon

#26
Ok, this thread is closed. Too many dishonest asshole trolls on this site.

Rob Necronomicon

Quote from: DeadVerySoon on January 18, 2022, 09:57:52 PM

It's a totally different act to be unable to pay and steal a copy for yourself, and to steal it and give it to those who CAN pay but won't.

I'm trying to drill down to the core here.
I think some of the replies here are very insincere, just trolling.

Well... Given the fact that you don't want to talk about those certain factors. And appear to want to make it more of a binary argument (which is not the way to approach it in my estimation). Then 'technically', if we follow your playbook - it does not harm the author per se.

That said, it does not make it an ethical action. If you were stealing for food (because you had no other choice) then I'd see that as more ethical. PDF games are not a necessity (obviously).

jeff37923

Quote from: DeadVerySoon on January 18, 2022, 10:16:03 PM
Ok, this thread is closed. Too many dishonest asshole trolls on this site.

And you may be one of them!
"Meh."

Ghostmaker

Quote from: DeadVerySoon on January 18, 2022, 10:16:03 PM
Ok, this thread is closed. Too many dishonest asshole trolls on this site.
LOL. Opens a can of worms and is surprised when they crawl out.

.