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How to give a Sword & Sorcery feel, to a D&D / PF setting?

Started by Jam The MF, June 26, 2021, 03:47:40 PM

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Jam The MF

I have a limited frame of reference, for Sword & Sorcery stuff.  I've watched the original Conan movies, and the first two Mummy and Scorpion King movies.  When very young, I once read The Sword & The Sorcerer.  Perhaps I have a little bit to work from?

I have some familiarity with the Dark Sun setting, via the D&D 4E Dark Sun MM.

Let the Dice, Decide the Outcome.  Accept the Results.

Pat

Sword & sorcery (anti-)heroes tend to fit the D&D PC mold fairly well. They're traditionally outcasts or wanderers, who don't really fit in anywhere. While they often fight evil, they're motivated by base urges, like lust or a desire for gold, instead of selfless ones. The settings usually draw more from the ancient world than the medieval, though there are tons of exceptions (like the Puritan Solomon Kane). The stories tend to extol the virtues of physical strength, martial prowess, and fortitude over more intellectual pursuits, and usually portray things like civilization and magic as decadent and corrupt or corrupting.

If you're looking for inspiration, start with R.E. Howard's Conan stories. They're the archetype. Secondarily, try Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories, which are amazingly well written and one of the core inspirations for D&D. Burroughs' John Carter of Mars books are another good resource, taking the genre to a fantastic planet with wondrous tech, and are another direct inspiration of D&D. I wouldn't start with Moorcock's Elric because it's a deliberate subversion of the standard tropes, but it's also a good example of the genre once you have some of the others under your belt, and is especially notable for incorporating a lot of magic and cosmic events.

Jam The MF

Quote from: Pat on June 26, 2021, 04:15:29 PM
Sword & sorcery (anti-)heroes tend to fit the D&D PC mold fairly well. They're traditionally outcasts or wanderers, who don't really fit in anywhere. While they often fight evil, they're motivated by base urges, like lust or a desire for gold, instead of selfless ones. The settings usually draw more from the ancient world than the medieval, though there are tons of exceptions (like the Puritan Solomon Kane). The stories tend to extol the virtues of physical strength, martial prowess, and fortitude over more intellectual pursuits, and usually portray things like civilization and magic as decadent and corrupt or corrupting.

If you're looking for inspiration, start with R.E. Howard's Conan stories. They're the archetype. Secondarily, try Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories, which are amazingly well written and one of the core inspirations for D&D. Burroughs' John Carter of Mars books are another good resource, taking the genre to a fantastic planet with wondrous tech, and are another direct inspiration of D&D. I wouldn't start with Moorcock's Elric because it's a deliberate subversion of the standard tropes, but it's also a good example of the genre once you have some of the others under your belt, and is especially notable for incorporating a lot of magic and cosmic events.


Motivated by base urges?  That describes almost everyone I know.  I know very few people who care to fight for selfless causes. 

I like the ancient world stuff.
Let the Dice, Decide the Outcome.  Accept the Results.

TJS

Honestly.   With D&D and Pathfinder?

Get the players to read lots of Lieber and Howard. Maybe some Thieves World and some more modern stuff like Malazan Book of the Fallen (which is closer to D&D tropes).

And then check the players are into it.  Then get the players to do everything they can to play that up.

Because with D&D or Pathfinder, short of rewriting the entire system, there ain't nothing you can do without massive player buy-in and a lot of effort from them.

If the players are trying to playing Sword and Sorcery characters then it can work.  If they aren't or they don't get it, no amount of rules tweaks will help.

Without a supporting system it's not something that can flow from the gm side alone.

oggsmash

Quote from: Jam The MF on June 26, 2021, 03:47:40 PM
I have a limited frame of reference, for Sword & Sorcery stuff.  I've watched the original Conan movies, and the first two Mummy and Scorpion King movies.  When very young, I once read The Sword & The Sorcerer.  Perhaps I have a little bit to work from?

I have some familiarity with the Dark Sun setting, via the D&D 4E Dark Sun MM.

  Get a copy of the Mongoose iteration of Conan.  It was made on the 3.5 ruleset with some rules specific to the setting (most notably that everyone has a defensive bonus that works like attack bonus, and armor makes you harder to hurt, not harder to hit). 

   A quick and dirty is to make magic users very rare, and using magic not a casual event.  Remove all non humans from availability as character classes, as well as no non humans in human society.  magic items tend to be for very specific purposes, and have either corrupting influences or are dangerous to use.   Make combat deadlier, Conan d20 had a massive damage threshold that triggered at 20 damage taken, given the higher damage of all weapons across the board, as well as the presence of rogues and sneak attacks,  this happened quite a bit and required a check vs death (Difficulty being 10+1/2 dmg inflicted) to stay up.    The setting tends to be a recovery from a fallen civilization, but D&D this is already the assumed history so not many changes there.

    In many settings good and evil have a great deal of gray; or more precisely, wonderful, pure good *may* exist, but tales of even hearing about it can create a religion.  Darkest evil most definitely exists.   Alignment has no place IMO in a S&S setting, I know Conan used reputation and corruption to represent how others viewed you. 

oggsmash

 I should have asked this question before I responded, are you looking to use the D&D or PF rules to run a Sword and Sorcery setting, or use the settings in those games to run a Sword and Sorcery game?  I ask this because in both settings the use of magic is somewhat common, and the world has been shaped around this.  So I am not so sure those settings will be compatible.  Now the RUINS of those settings from too much mucking about with magic, could make a perfect setting for Sword and Sorcery.

  Are you considering any other rules, or want the rules around the settings you describe?  If you are somewhat married to the D20 and feats, I can not recommend getting a copy of the Mongoose run of Conan enough.  If you are more willing to branch out, I have some suggestions, but I will hold those to see if rules and setting are set for you.

Vidgrip

Before you spend any money, much of the best S&S tales are free to read online. Start with this: http://www.eldritchdark.com/writings/short-stories/208/the-tale-of-satampra-zeiros

If you really want to use PF or 5e to do S&S then the essential setting and support (all free) are here: https://xoth.net/publishing/

But I would recommend a game shaped for Sword & Sorcery. I'm currently running a campaign of Crypts & Things, which is a simple OSR system. If you want a more complex system, there is Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperboria.

oggsmash

Quote from: Vidgrip on June 26, 2021, 07:20:14 PM
Before you spend any money, much of the best S&S tales are free to read online. Start with this: http://www.eldritchdark.com/writings/short-stories/208/the-tale-of-satampra-zeiros

If you really want to use PF or 5e to do S&S then the essential setting and support (all free) are here: https://xoth.net/publishing/

But I would recommend a game shaped for Sword & Sorcery. I'm currently running a campaign of Crypts & Things, which is a simple OSR system. If you want a more complex system, there is Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperboria.

  I agree on the rules specific for it, or use a generic system with some Sword and Sorcery flavoring.  I suggest Gurps Lite http://www.warehouse23.com/products/SJG31-0004   because it is free and with the relative danger of comat will do a pretty good job of emulating the genre (I do suggest building a beginner on 150 with 50 disad points though to represent a character that has been around the block already).

Pat

Quote from: Jam The MF on June 26, 2021, 05:13:34 PM
Quote from: Pat on June 26, 2021, 04:15:29 PM
Sword & sorcery (anti-)heroes tend to fit the D&D PC mold fairly well. They're traditionally outcasts or wanderers, who don't really fit in anywhere. While they often fight evil, they're motivated by base urges, like lust or a desire for gold, instead of selfless ones.

Motivated by base urges?  That describes almost everyone I know.  I know very few people who care to fight for selfless causes. 
"Jam the MF,

We're sorry to inform you that your application to join the Fellowship of the Ring has been rejected. Tweeting hopes and prayers doesn't show the selfless dedication needed to prevail against the Dark Lord.

-Elrond Half-Elven"

The focus on base motives is a contrast to traditional heroic fiction, including epic fantasies, Comics Code-era super heroes, and many other examples on film and television. Sword & sorcery, low fantasy, and so on are a reaction to and a contrast against the heroic narrative that prevailed for decades.

Comparing them to ordinary folk living ordinary lives is using the wrong measure. Because sword & sorcery heroes will often go to extraordinary lengths -- but it's generally not to save the day or rescue a stranger. There might be a girl involved, or vengeance, or a huge pile of treasure, or defending what's their's, or just the urge to do something no one else has done. Sheer determination, a sense of outraged personal justice, and personal ties are often involved.

Zelen

I wouldn't want to try to run Sword and Sorcery style with a baseline D&D system, you're looking at banning a slew of classes, spells, magic items, etc. A lot of work.
Xoth is great if you want to run in 5e D&D. Good starting point to keep you and players on the same page.

Jam The MF

#10
Quote from: oggsmash on June 26, 2021, 07:19:29 PM
I should have asked this question before I responded, are you looking to use the D&D or PF rules to run a Sword and Sorcery setting, or use the settings in those games to run a Sword and Sorcery game?  I ask this because in both settings the use of magic is somewhat common, and the world has been shaped around this.  So I am not so sure those settings will be compatible.  Now the RUINS of those settings from too much mucking about with magic, could make a perfect setting for Sword and Sorcery.

  Are you considering any other rules, or want the rules around the settings you describe?  If you are somewhat married to the D20 and feats, I can not recommend getting a copy of the Mongoose run of Conan enough.  If you are more willing to branch out, I have some suggestions, but I will hold those to see if rules and setting are set for you.


Well.... I already own White Box FMAG, 1E, 2E, 3E, 3.5E, 4E, 5E, PF 1E, PF 2E Playtest, Lion & Dragon, DCC, and Dungeon World.  A bunch of dead trees.  I'd like to work from my current pile of dead trees, if possible.  I can forbid feats and multiclassing.  Perhaps forbid certain classes too?
Let the Dice, Decide the Outcome.  Accept the Results.

Omega

Check out the AD&D Conan modules/setting set. This gives rules for trimming D&D down to play a straight-up swords-n-sorcery campaign. Alot of the classes are not allowed and its only human PCs. Also new rules for fear and horror.

Same can be done with 3e.

Theres also the Conan and Indiana Jones RPGs from TSR. Harder to find though.

Pat

Quote from: Omega on June 27, 2021, 01:33:32 AM
Theres also the Conan and Indiana Jones RPGs from TSR. Harder to find though.
A retroclone of the Conan RPG from TSR (ZeFRS) is available for free, or at cost for the print version:
https://sites.google.com/site/zefrsrpg/

TJS

Quote from: Jam The MF on June 26, 2021, 08:42:20 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on June 26, 2021, 07:19:29 PM
I should have asked this question before I responded, are you looking to use the D&D or PF rules to run a Sword and Sorcery setting, or use the settings in those games to run a Sword and Sorcery game?  I ask this because in both settings the use of magic is somewhat common, and the world has been shaped around this.  So I am not so sure those settings will be compatible.  Now the RUINS of those settings from too much mucking about with magic, could make a perfect setting for Sword and Sorcery.

  Are you considering any other rules, or want the rules around the settings you describe?  If you are somewhat married to the D20 and feats, I can not recommend getting a copy of the Mongoose run of Conan enough.  If you are more willing to branch out, I have some suggestions, but I will hold those to see if rules and setting are set for you.


Well.... I already own White Box FMAG, 1E, 2E, 3E, 3.5E, 4E, 5E, PF 1E, PF 2E Playtest, Lion & Dragon, DCC, and Dungeon World.  A bunch of dead trees.  I'd like to work from my current pile of dead trees, if possible.  I can forbid feats and multiclassing.  Perhaps forbid certain classes too?
Why do you need to forbid them?  Do the players know what you want to do?  Are they onboard?  If they are just discuss appropriate character concepts.

But my experience is that you can't really invoke the flavour of a particular genre by subtraction.

After all, Dudley Do Right the Fighter with a heart of gold who wants to travel the world and fight evil doesn't really work any better than Fuzzbuzzle the Gnome wizard.

S'mon

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