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So...Savage Pathfinder is out...

Started by HappyDaze, June 17, 2021, 08:09:37 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

camazotz

Quote from: Plotinus on June 18, 2021, 06:01:55 AM
Quote from: 234ne on June 18, 2021, 02:50:29 AM
Hopefully it won't be too woke, but then again this is the two most woke publishers besides WotC so I won't count on it...
On a serious note, how would this be different from normal default Savage Worlds? Is it like Savage Rifts where you get 'archtypes' instead of 'classes'?

Lol, in what world is PEG the third most woke publisher in the industry? They did have that preemptive-defensive move where they ended the Civil War in Deadlands, but other than that, I really haven't seen anything ideological from them.

Anyway, I still don't get the popularity of Savage Pathfinder. What's the appeal of a hybrid of Savage Worlds and 3e D&D? I can't imagine why I would want that. It might make sense if Golarion were a great setting, but it's as boring and generic as they come. I guess Savage Pathfinder might do some good if the lessons learned from it help make the Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion better when they finally get to it.

I'm not sure why the civil war has anything to do with wokeness. SWPF is for Savage Worlds players who want more fantasy content to use SW for D&D style games, that is it's purpose and it does it well. If you play actual Pathfinder then there's no reason to worry about it.

HappyDaze

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 22, 2021, 10:34:47 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on June 22, 2021, 09:01:22 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 22, 2021, 01:10:35 AM
While not Tembones, how quickly combat happens can be pretty easily calculated, depending on the foes toughness and players weapons.

If the players have low damage dealing weapons, and the foes have jacked up toughness, its gonna take forever.

Assuming the players are also innacurate and can't do headshots or the like.

Or flank, or gang up, or gang tackle a foe and slide a dagger in their throat.  I think some of the toughness of opponents is overcome with wild attacks (similar to all out attacks from GURPS), targeted attacks from the drop, etc.  I appreciate that sometimes a head on assault wont get it done.  I also think we have been somewhat programmed by D&D to keep attacking till we hit that critical as other than a rogue, there is not always big value in positioning or outnumbering a foe.   I also found from a couple of games using SW against tough foes, magic is a serious force multiplier (smite, especially with a raise makes a massive difference for the grunts/warriors) in that many spells roll multiple dice (as well as the ranged spells seem to have better odds at getting a raise) and the chances of those aces make a big difference.
OK, I'll look into what you have mentioned (I've never seen "wild attacks," etc.).  How do you help stop the "bennie hoarding" we started the conversation with, though?  It still seems like bennies are best used to soak, with every other use being wildly inferior.
Sometimes you don't need to hoard them for Soak (but keeping one or two isn't a bad idea) but you will need them for other things (e.g., success on hard tests, better initiative, etc.).

camazotz

Quote from: tenbones on June 18, 2021, 04:51:31 PM
Why speculate about it when you can read Shanes own words right here.

QuoteThe decision for the CSA to fall in the Deadlands timeline after 1871 (1865 in the real world) is mine and mine alone. I created the world, I run the world with the help of some excellent people, and I know where it's heading.

I'm a fiscal conservative and social liberal, have an MA in Military History, and am well-versed in the Civil War, the West, and the 19th century in general. I stand by the original decision to use the war to create the fear and terror of Deadlands (the same theme we explore in our Weird Wars line), and I stand by the decision now to change course.

Here's why. Having characters loyal to the CSA...not just "Southerners" but actual loyalists to the cause, even if anti-slavery but loyal for some reason, can be *incredibly* uncomfortable for others at the table. Imagine the GM having to roleplay those voices. That's not fun. That's not what our game's about. We want you to laugh and smile and roll Aces and get excited about your next session. And if you and your group want to explore heavier themes, go for it! But that's something you and your friends can handle better than we can do in print where we deal with players and Marshals all over the world.

Feedback is important to me, I do listen, and I do care what all of you think about Deadlands. But the decisions are mine, the world is mine, and it will stay that way until I die. I know what it is, what it stands for, and where I want it to go.

Deadlands is spaghetti Western with horror. It's cowboys and zombies. That's the heart and soul of the Weird West. Everything else is background, real or imagined, cool or mundane.

So what about the story and history of Deadlands? How will the Last War in Hell on Earth start? We answered those questions internally a long time ago, and are excited to share them with you when the time comes.

The end of the Civil War 13 years prior to the current timeline still carries all the weight it did before. Heroes can be veterans of either side, harbor resentments, reminiscence about their experience at Gettysburg, and so on.

Everything up to the Battle of Washington (a huge steampunk battle in the world of Deadlands) stays the same. Not much happened after that in the official timeline anyway.

The Agents and Texas Rangers have been working together for a while under the Twilight Protocol, and they still do in the new edition (and fight with each other just like today's government agencies).

The Great Rail Wars still happened just as it did before... it's just the Union offering the contract rather than the Union and the CSA.

The Servitor series happens just as in those four EPIC Plot Point Campaigns.

Doomtown rose, fell, rose, fell, and well...it's Doomtown. It never really dies!

Honestly, we think even the most dedicated fan won't even notice the difference. We haven't in our playtests, writings, and reviews.

Maybe you'll agree. Maybe you won't. That's okay. We're doing it anyway.

We've said everything we care to say on the issue, so our efforts from here forward are focused on making the best game and worlds we know how to make. If they don't fit your tastes, that's okay. We're all lucky to live in a golden age of gaming right now and you have hundreds of choices. I'm very happy to see any of my friends at other companies get your business and for you to find whatever game, company, or system makes YOU and your friends happy. Truly.

Thanks again for reading, friends, and I hope to see you in the Weird West for one more ride!

Savage Worlds is about tropes, it's not supposed to be realistic. That said it's part of the larger in-game narrative they're creating for their Morgana Effect which is going to effect not just Deadlands, but some of their other gamelines as well.

For me? Meh. I'll still have CSA stuff in my game when I run it. I'm not a big fan of the Deadlands metaplot anyhow.

As for Savage Pathfinder - it's rock solid. I've been saying Savage Worlds does D&D fantasy better than D&D. Literally none of the problems that have plagued D&D in various amounts are an issue in Savage Worlds. What's better, since Savage Worlds can scale up to insane levels of power - you can lift most if not all the rules you want from Savage Rifts and use them for extreme high-level play without missing a beat. Something D&D in any incarnation would be an insane struggle by comparison.

I own all the current PDF's it's close to final drafts (I've kept each iteration). I'm happy to field any questions.

1) No their version of Golarion is not woke *at all* in the current draft. Frankly I'm take it or leave it on the setting, my goal is to convert all my 1e and 2e D&D material over. Greybox Realms, Spelljammer, Kara-Tur etc. Savage Pathfinder has done 95% of the work for us.

The greatness of Savage Pathfinder is not that it's Pathfinder. It's that now Savage Worlds will have a complete lineup of rules that kicks the door down for D&D style fantasy from top-to-bottom and beyond because the chassis scales WAY past what D&D of any edition can pull off easily.

Thanks for the quote from Shane, I did not know about this. I don't play Deadlands and never have, interesting to see how and why it's evolved and changed, though.

oggsmash

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 22, 2021, 10:34:47 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on June 22, 2021, 09:01:22 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 22, 2021, 01:10:35 AM
While not Tembones, how quickly combat happens can be pretty easily calculated, depending on the foes toughness and players weapons.

If the players have low damage dealing weapons, and the foes have jacked up toughness, its gonna take forever.

Assuming the players are also innacurate and can't do headshots or the like.

Or flank, or gang up, or gang tackle a foe and slide a dagger in their throat.  I think some of the toughness of opponents is overcome with wild attacks (similar to all out attacks from GURPS), targeted attacks from the drop, etc.  I appreciate that sometimes a head on assault wont get it done.  I also think we have been somewhat programmed by D&D to keep attacking till we hit that critical as other than a rogue, there is not always big value in positioning or outnumbering a foe.   I also found from a couple of games using SW against tough foes, magic is a serious force multiplier (smite, especially with a raise makes a massive difference for the grunts/warriors) in that many spells roll multiple dice (as well as the ranged spells seem to have better odds at getting a raise) and the chances of those aces make a big difference.
OK, I'll look into what you have mentioned (I've never seen "wild attacks," etc.).  How do you help stop the "bennie hoarding" we started the conversation with, though?  It still seems like bennies are best used to soak, with every other use being wildly inferior.

   I find my players are a bit more aggressive and tend to use their bennies for re rolling to hit or damage.   For the bad guys, I try to gauge what the bad guy's personality is, if he is an evil genius and wants to live at all costs, I make him use bennies to soak.  I use bennies for bad guys who are very aggressive, to be very aggressive.  Because the players and some of the bad guys might be very aggressive it makes the soaking less a huge time sink.  We did have some issues with what seemed to be long slugfests because of soaking wounds with bennies and relying on an ace to take down a tough opponent.  Once the players got a bit more familiar with taking advantage and using tactics, the bennies sort of became less important to a degree, and since they tend to be aggressive (my players) they burn bennies on other things in many of their adventures.  I also try to put traps, tricks, and some stunts needed to get through an adventure (many of these that can be lethal, so again bennies get burned leading to big face offs).  In fairness in that regard, I try to use the 'extra' bennies as much as I can on the adventures rather than hoarding them. 

oggsmash

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 22, 2021, 11:19:36 AM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 22, 2021, 10:34:47 AMOK, I'll look into what you have mentioned (I've never seen "wild attacks," etc.).  How do you help stop the "bennie hoarding" we started the conversation with, though?  It still seems like bennies are best used to soak, with every other use being wildly inferior.

Not Tenbones or Oggsmash again, and I don't know if wild attacks are a thing in Explorer Edition (I know they are in Adventure Edition):

But SW (At least in my experience) favors the attacker. My players have found it better to hit well during critical times then hope for a soak, because enemy damage can spike.
Maybe try out saying that only 'Starter' bennies can be used to soak, and the rest during the game usable for other stuff. That can ween you into the process.

But I will also admit this may be a 'more of a art then a science' type of deal.

  They were in explorer, but from what I remember I do not know if they even had their own bold face heading.  I think they were brought to my attention on a GM screen, and I looked in the index to find them (correction, they do have a bold face heading, and are on page 87 of the explorer edition) and was like...wow.   

oggsmash

#80
  For hitting the tough targets I will add this (Explorer edition, I assume it is also possible in SWADE, though I do not know if assassin is an edge there).
  Take your tough bad guy, being ganged up on by 3 of your tanks.  The rogue manages to creep around behind him, getting the drop (+4 to hit and damage), uses a wild attack (+2 to hit and damage), has the assassin edge (from Fantasy Companion, for another +2 to damage), gets a gang up bonus to hit of +2, decides to go for the vitals for a -4 to hit and a +4 to damage.  That is a total of +4 to hit (huge in SW) and a total damage bonus of +12.  This has ended several tough bad guy's day for my players.  The same rogue can also decide to sit back in hiding and shoot his bow instead, and often has even better odds of hitting if he is short ranged and undetected (he does lose the wild attack and gang up, but ranged attacks land against a lower TN and he still has aim and the drop, and keeps the assassin damage bonus to land a devastating shot at +10 damage).    Throw in Smite cast with a raise, and to be honest soak bennies get burnt very, very fast. 

tenbones

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 22, 2021, 10:34:47 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on June 22, 2021, 09:01:22 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 22, 2021, 01:10:35 AM
While not Tembones, how quickly combat happens can be pretty easily calculated, depending on the foes toughness and players weapons.

If the players have low damage dealing weapons, and the foes have jacked up toughness, its gonna take forever.

Assuming the players are also innacurate and can't do headshots or the like.

Or flank, or gang up, or gang tackle a foe and slide a dagger in their throat.  I think some of the toughness of opponents is overcome with wild attacks (similar to all out attacks from GURPS), targeted attacks from the drop, etc.  I appreciate that sometimes a head on assault wont get it done.  I also think we have been somewhat programmed by D&D to keep attacking till we hit that critical as other than a rogue, there is not always big value in positioning or outnumbering a foe.   I also found from a couple of games using SW against tough foes, magic is a serious force multiplier (smite, especially with a raise makes a massive difference for the grunts/warriors) in that many spells roll multiple dice (as well as the ranged spells seem to have better odds at getting a raise) and the chances of those aces make a big difference.
OK, I'll look into what you have mentioned (I've never seen "wild attacks," etc.).  How do you help stop the "bennie hoarding" we started the conversation with, though?  It still seems like bennies are best used to soak, with every other use being wildly inferior.

Oh man you're getting onto the path!

Oggs and Shrieking are pointing you the way!


Having someone in the party use Tricks and be "that guy" that slaps Shaken on enemies is a *huge* deal. And one that is overlooked all the time. Especially when considering things like "the Drop" and Assassinate as a lead-in.

Okay the Bennies thing is going to take some doing once your party has already settled into the Hoarding mentality. There are several ways to decondition players. I'm going to say this from a GM perspective first.

1) Start PROACTIVELY rewarding your PC's for playing their hindrances. Whether it's for their benefit or not. But especially reward them when it's for negative reasons.

2) When a player does something with their PC that you think defines that PC in your eyes, or their eyes (something you should talk about at Char-gen or it could be emergent in the game) - give them Bennies.

3) Do a good job describing a scene (especially if combat is about to ensue) and highlight environmental stuff that could effect the course of the fight. And if you have NPC's on the PC's side, have them queue their use if the PC's don't think of it. And don't hesitate for bad guys to do so too. When the PC's do it - give them a Benny.

4) Let your players describe narratively what they're trying to do and how it will look, and juice it up and make it heroic. If they get into it with you, they'll start unconsciously trying to do more and more heroic/crazy stunts that should give them Bennies.

5) Something I do is I crib Fate's Aspects for my players at Chargen. I have them give me three Aspects or things about their PC's and I reward them with Bennies anytime they act on them or I test them on it and they react in accordance with it. Weave them into their Hindrances. This gives you a lot of synergy that will encourage their engagement in roleplay and combat encounters.

6) Don't skimp on your encounters when they are hard. Making sure your PC's have lots of Bennies makes fights *more* epic. A hard fight can be any fight where Bennies are tight. But if Bennies are flowing - that fight with 5 Orcs under normal circumstances could be 20 Orcs and your players will fight like heroic bastards. Be mindful of what these numbers mean. If every monster is rocking a d12 to attack, that's pretty high-octane. Let the players be the heroes, that Parry rating means they're that good at deflecting/dodging attacks let your players describe it (or you do it) to let the gravity of how good your players are.

I had a new player in SW (Beasts and Barbarians) in his first game ever - rocking an 11 Parry fresh out of the gate (with his Shield and Edges) and after wading through a throng of enemy barbarians where he parried, deflected like 7 attacks on him and he proceeded to attrition them down single-handedly, he immediately understood why I moved to SW over D&D. It's not that I lowered the bar for him, it's that the mechanical choices of his character means he's THAT good to regular foes. It's higher octane.

Conversely this doesn't mean I have to put in a roided Ogre Captain just to beat him - I have to play my NPCs/Monsters smarter once the realization of how good he is, and what a danger he actually poses in order to deal with him. OR ruuuun away.

As a Player -

1) Be proactive about trying stuff that goes beyond the assumptions of "I attack". Yes by all means play the mechanics but the whole point of the system is to leverage whatever narrative examples are laid down to squeeze some dynamics out that lead to greater success - which makes it heroic in the mere attempt even if you fail.

2) Indulge in your Hindrances. Too many players pick up Hindrances thinking they're just there to give you your "free" 4 points. They're there to roleplay and if your GM is on point, pick up Bennies. What's the point of being Addicted and while on a binge in the Tavern you don't start a drunken bar-fight because you took Mean or Arrogant too? That's a fucking Benny-Factory at my table. Assuming you don't get yourself killed/maimed pursuing things like this.

3) No man is an island in a boss-fight. If you're out of Bennys, nothing prevents you from going all out in a fight and getting Bennys by doing crazy shit. AND you should do it with your party in coordination. A well coordinated party using good tactics can bring down heavy bosses that exceed the PC's individual power level. Called shots, Taunt, Tricks, Gang-up tactics are bread and butter. But don't forget using the environment - these become justifications to do heroic shit that you can always negotiate for a Benny.


Shrieking Banshee

Anyway, what Im looking for in SW is fights that discourage fights in terms of power. As a GM its dull as dishwater to pit my numbers against the PCs numbers. I want to succeed with their brains and creativity, not their numbers.

tenbones

yeah. I've never adhered to that kind of gaming. But it's because I run things as a sandbox. I try to cultivate an ecology where things exist where they're supposed to exist contextually. I don't care about the power-level of the PC's.

But my friction points in the game are driven by NPC's that have their own agendas, and sometimes they're radically under/over the power-level of the PC's but their machinations change the context of the setting in direct opposition to whatever the party goes. Somewhere in there, the PC's are also doing their own thing, and exploring stuff, and kicking over hornets nests which invariably interacts with these things.

I'm less concerned with the PC's being challenged based on power-level as I am with them having fun doing whatever it is they wanna do, and if they uncover big scary ugly shit - even better.

Rhedyn

#84
After playing Savage Worlds for a few years, I believe the combat in Savage Worlds works best when encounters are too hard or too easy. Encounters you shouldn't be able to win are possible, while you can never feel safe in "easy" encounters. It's that perception of danger where Savage Worlds shines. Basically every RPG takes forever to "almost kill" the party, but it's only in "even" fights that a party may feel in danger. Savage Worlds allows for your party of 6 to be jumped by 6 bandits and still feel in danger even if actual PC death chance is low.

With a ton of theorycraft and calculations you can work out a system to make "balanced encounters" in Savage Worlds. It's doable. Your prize for your efforts is a 3 hour+ combat that takes most of the session. Whoo? Don't do that. Don't plan encounters and don't balance them. Take the OSR situation approach or take the D&D 5e approach of pre planned easy encounters with like 1 hard one to cap a story arc. I don't like the latter as much, but Savage Worlds works for that approach longer than 5e does (in terms of number of sessions in a campaign. At higher levels 5e combat takes too long while Savage Worlds remains the same length).

Where Savage Worlds falls apart is people taking a D&D 3.5 or D&D 4e approach of forcing the party into a "balanced encounter". You don't feel threatened but Heroic in a balanced encounter AND you don't feel like you overcame impossible odds. You just get frustrated when things don't work and frustrated when things work against you. The Swingy-ness in Savage Worlds is supposed to be a feature, but "balanced encounters" make it a source of frustration.

234ne

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 22, 2021, 01:51:06 PM
Anyway, what Im looking for in SW is fights that discourage fights in terms of power. As a GM its dull as dishwater to pit my numbers against the PCs numbers. I want to succeed with their brains and creativity, not their numbers.

I had a talk about this with a friend once, back in Explorer edition, where SW's 'test of wills' and 'tricks' can become a determent to player creativity and put emphasis on stat building & benny using instead; similar in their WEG predecessors. Since you already have a sub-system in place of resolving the use of traditionally non-combat attributes, players tend to spam it with minimal roleplaying involved (similar to how the generic 'I attack him!" is used). SWADE kinda fixed this with a more broader circumstances to activate it's 'test' and including a room for the GM to veto the player for not being creative enough. Even still, in my opinion, you should have the 'creative combat' option rule on the table by default to add randomness to encourage quick thinking.

Quote from: tenbones on June 22, 2021, 01:56:49 PM
But it's because I run things as a sandbox.

Speaking of sandbox, I wonder why there is no official supplement/ruleset for a hexcrawl or base building in this system (similar to PF:Ultimate Campaign), even though the default rules are geared for that (with a lot hazards rules), and instead the devs want to emphasize 'plot point campaigning.'   

tenbones

Quote from: 234ne on June 23, 2021, 05:06:41 PM

Speaking of sandbox, I wonder why there is no official supplement/ruleset for a hexcrawl or base building in this system (similar to PF:Ultimate Campaign), even though the default rules are geared for that (with a lot hazards rules), and instead the devs want to emphasize 'plot point campaigning.'   

It's a good question. I suspect it's because of the idea that Savage Worlds is about "tropes" so it leaves it up to the GM whether they want to fill those gaps between plot-points with Hex Crawl material.

That said, I do it naturally. It always felt odd that people consider Hex Crawling to be a discrete thing. I've always assumed you either screen-wipe to the next point or you make people travel there. Hex Crawling, if done right, is a great way to get players immersed into the game because making day-to-day decisions even if nothing happens, just getting prepared for travel overland is an exercise of player agency on its own. There's *always* something a newb player forgets that they take for granted that makes traveling worthy of adventure. not enough food? Time to go out and scavenge. Anyone scouting ahead? Time for a possible ambush? Maybe they do scout and the discover some mystery - remnants of a wiped out caravan, ruins, etc. There's always something to be done in the hands of a good GM that can think on their toes or with a fistful of random tables.

It does seem worthy of putting into a supplement. HMM!!!!????!!???

234ne

Quote from: tenbones on June 23, 2021, 06:28:43 PM
There's *always* something a newb player forgets that they take for granted that makes traveling worthy of adventure. not enough food? Time to go out and scavenge. Anyone scouting ahead? Time for a possible ambush? Maybe they do scout and the discover some mystery - remnants of a wiped out caravan, ruins, etc. There's always something to be done in the hands of a good GM that can think on their toes or with a fistful of random tables.

Which makes it weirder, because this thing started out as miniature wargame project and those things you listed are general staples of a warmini campaign (which OSR also have a lot of roots in). I really think there is a market for it to put out, at least, a mini supplement for those type of game.

Sidenote: I really recommend doing SW with miniature combat as default, if you have the space for a 4x4 or bigger play area and once you get the hang of the rules.     

FingerRod

Quote from: 234ne on June 23, 2021, 06:53:01 PM
Sidenote: I really recommend doing SW with miniature combat as default, if you have the space for a 4x4 or bigger play area and once you get the hang of the rules.     

Why do you recommend miniature? With all of this SW talk, I dusted off my SWADE copy and I am planning to run a one shot this weekend. Was going to go TotM, but now I'm curious.

tenbones

If your players are into it - then it's fun. I'm 50/50 on it not because using figures is bad or anything...

I'll admit it... I'm stickler for only using painted figures, and I simply don't have the time to paint them up. And it drives me crazy that I already have a lot of figures that remain unpainted for years.

BUT... now Pinnacle is putting out some pretty high-quality figure-flats. So no painting needed, and they sell them so you can mass-army build on the cheap for you games. I know they have a bunch coming out for Rifts Atlantis.

That all said, I'm perfectly fine playing without minis, but it's well supported mechanically if you want to use them.