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Spelljammer for 2E now Print on Demand on Drivethrurpg

Started by Abraxus, February 11, 2021, 10:39:38 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

RandyB

Quote from: Slambo on February 13, 2021, 09:19:07 PM
Quote from: Brad on February 13, 2021, 07:36:50 PM
Is Spelljammer actually any good? Serious question. I started playing Rifts about the time it came out and thought it was a bad knockoff, never really gave it a chance.

I quite like it, but  its not really like rifts...its more like....well i always thought of it being like Treasure Planet.

Yes, it is.

Spelljammer came first, though.

Eirikrautha

Quote from: Pat on February 13, 2021, 09:53:14 PM
Quote from: Brad on February 13, 2021, 07:36:50 PM
Is Spelljammer actually any good? Serious question. I started playing Rifts about the time it came out and thought it was a bad knockoff, never really gave it a chance.
It's not a knock-off of RIFTS. They're not even in the same vicinity.

Pre-Spelljammer D&D had a lot of mechanics for traveling between planes, but aside from a few handwavy mentions of gates or that appendix in the Manual of the Planes, it never really delved into how travel between different alternate worlds within the Prime worked. Spelljammer answers that question.

And it does it using space travel. Except it's not science or science fiction space travel. It's space travel based on pre-modern cosmological theories like celestial spheres and luminiferous ether. Basically, each campaign setting (Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, your own, other worlds they made up) is in a solar system surrounded by a giant crystal sphere. Crazy flying ships shaped like animals or other weird things can travel between planets (bodies) within a single crystal sphere, and can cross the (highly explosive and flammable) phlogiston between spheres.

As with all 2e settings, there are some issues, for instance too great a dependence on casters (ships fly using helms -- think helming a ship, not armor for the head -- which are almost always powered by casters), but conceptually it's a lot of fun, the ship designs are fantastic, and the setting components are great. For instance, beholders are more concerned with their own internal war of racial purity so they might trade peacefully with outsiders, spider slavers with umber hulk muscle are common in ports, an powerful elven armada keeps peace, and religious factions (Ptah is big) have to deal with the connection to their god varying from sphere to sphere, and more. A lot of high concept ideas, leavened with some silliness (sometimes both -- humanoid hippos with monocles and military uniforms sound absurd, but the giff are one of the most popular and well developed elements of the setting).
This is a good and accurate summary.   If you're looking for adventures on the high seas but even more gonzo, this your bag.
"Testosterone levels vary widely among women, just like other secondary sex characteristics like breast size or body hair. If you eliminate anyone with elevated testosterone, it's like eliminating athletes because their boobs aren't big enough or because they're too hairy." -- jhkim

Brad

Quote from: RandyB on February 14, 2021, 10:55:05 AM
Yes, it is.

Spelljammer came first, though.

I first saw both of them end of the summer in 1990 at the local gaming store. How long had Spelljammer been released before Rifts came out?
It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.

RandyB

Quote from: Brad on February 14, 2021, 12:43:06 PM
Quote from: RandyB on February 14, 2021, 10:55:05 AM
Yes, it is.

Spelljammer came first, though.

I first saw both of them end of the summer in 1990 at the local gaming store. How long had Spelljammer been released before Rifts came out?

Miscommunication.

Spelljammer came out before Treasure Planet.

To your question, I don't remember the relative release dates of Spelljammer and Rifts. To me, the similarities between the two are minimal, anyway.

Ratman_tf

The Helms running on spellcaster power was a neat idea, but had the issue others have mentioned. You get a spellcaster with no spells if you run into a random space encounter.

Keeping the original idea, I'd change it so that helms can store magic for a week, and anyone can "drive" the ship by sitting at the helm. (IIRC it takes someone sitting at the helm, and a crew running the rigging like a water ship) That way the magic cost can be spread out over a week instead of all or nothing day-by-day. I'd have to go over the Spelljammer rules again, of course.

And IIRC there were other power sources, but they weren't nearly as widespread as the Spelljammer helm.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

Omega

Quote from: Brad on February 13, 2021, 07:36:50 PM
Is Spelljammer actually any good? Serious question. I started playing Rifts about the time it came out and thought it was a bad knockoff, never really gave it a chance.

Very YMMV. Its D&D in fantasy space. Travel from system to system in various models of vessel from the mundane to the fantastical. A few new races and the ability to travel from one setting to another even. Rules for space combat and also how travel can impact clerics if you get outside their influence. Ships ran off a jammer helm which required some spellcaster class to man it and pretty much used up their spell slots as fuel. Also like the Star Frontiers Knight Hawks expansion it came with an add on tactical space battle wargame for those who wanted to make use of. And some really nice 3d folded ship minis. Wryly ironic as it also had hidden in the pages some of the Star Frontiers races as monsters.
Also rules for falling from orbit. Dead.

It is not as goofball as some like to claim. Just very broad in its tone from deadly serious to very lighthearted.

Had a couple of modules and boxed sets and a Complete Guide book that opened up more races for use.

Ratman_tf

Quote from: Omega on February 14, 2021, 03:50:52 PM
It is not as goofball as some like to claim. Just very broad in its tone from deadly serious to very lighthearted.

Yeah, I don't mind lighthearted, but I think Spelljammer didn't have as solid a tone as other campaign settings. Joke races and biomechanical elves. (It sounds cool, but the writeup was pretty dull)

I think if I ran Spelljammer nowadays, I'd focus on a Jules Verne / Adventure Planet type of tone, and not be distracted by the grab-bag of ideas floating around.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

Omega

Quote from: Pat on February 13, 2021, 09:53:14 PMA lot of high concept ideas, leavened with some silliness (sometimes both -- humanoid hippos with monocles and military uniforms sound absurd, but the giff are one of the most popular and well developed elements of the setting).

Allways thought it odd that the Dracon, the dragon-taurs were never fleshed out. But that might have been deliberate. Left blank for the DM to take in whatever direction they wanted.

Omega

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 14, 2021, 03:55:50 PM
Quote from: Omega on February 14, 2021, 03:50:52 PM
It is not as goofball as some like to claim. Just very broad in its tone from deadly serious to very lighthearted.

Yeah, I don't mind lighthearted, but I think Spelljammer didn't have as solid a tone as other campaign settings. Joke races and biomechanical elves. (It sounds cool, but the writeup was pretty dull)

I think if I ran Spelljammer nowadays, I'd focus on a Jules Verne / Adventure Planet type of tone, and not be distracted by the grab-bag of ideas floating around.

That though was a problem with alot of 2e writing. Dull. Ad oddly sometimes un-informative. YMMV of course and some books were better by far than others.

Omega

Quote from: RandyB on February 14, 2021, 12:48:28 PM
Quote from: Brad on February 14, 2021, 12:43:06 PM
Quote from: RandyB on February 14, 2021, 10:55:05 AM
Yes, it is.

Spelljammer came first, though.

I first saw both of them end of the summer in 1990 at the local gaming store. How long had Spelljammer been released before Rifts came out?

Miscommunication.

Spelljammer came out before Treasure Planet.

To your question, I don't remember the relative release dates of Spelljammer and Rifts. To me, the similarities between the two are minimal, anyway.

Spelljammer came out in 89.
Rifts came out in 90.

And yeah they are nothing similar. Rifts shares more with Gamma World.

Pat

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 14, 2021, 03:55:50 PM
Quote from: Omega on February 14, 2021, 03:50:52 PM
It is not as goofball as some like to claim. Just very broad in its tone from deadly serious to very lighthearted.

Yeah, I don't mind lighthearted, but I think Spelljammer didn't have as solid a tone as other campaign settings. Joke races and biomechanical elves. (It sounds cool, but the writeup was pretty dull)

I think if I ran Spelljammer nowadays, I'd focus on a Jules Verne / Adventure Planet type of tone, and not be distracted by the grab-bag of ideas floating around.
My first response to Spelljammer was I wanted to rewrite the whole thing. It's cool in conception, and when it comes to a lot of the specifics, but there are the usual mechanical issues that beset everything in second edition, and as you noted, it's very inconsistent in tone. It's a place with a lot of wild ideas, but some fail, and it generally feels like it's more in the brainstorming stage than a final, polished product.

I think this was more of a problem when it first came out, because the main audience of D&D at the time was teenagers, and people at that developmental stage are great at absorbing vast gobs of material, but they're weaker on the critical side. Most gamers today are experienced adults, with a broader perspective and firmer ideas on what works and what doesn't. Spelljammer works fine from that perspective. It's a grab-bag of ideas, but it needs a filter. Decide what works, drop anything that doesn't, decide what to focus on, and adjust as needed.

BronzeDragon

Do the GM's day discounts usually apply only to pdfs or do they go for print products as well?
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Pat

I could be out of date, but I've never seen sales apply to print books on OBS.

Armchair Gamer

Quote from: Pat on February 14, 2021, 08:35:12 PM
I could be out of date, but I've never seen sales apply to print books on OBS.

Usually, they don't, but I know it's happened at least once with WOTC products. Whether that was a fluke or not, I don't know. You do see small discounts on the print/PDF combo packs, though.

BronzeDragon

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"It's not that I'm afraid to die. I just don't want to be there when it happens." - Boris Grushenko