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How to define fantasy races

Started by Mishihari, December 06, 2020, 05:38:20 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Mishihari

#45
Thanks for taking the time to read and comment on the description.  I'm not sure if your questions are rhetorical to make a point or actually questions, but I'll treat them as the latter.

Quote from: Pat on December 14, 2020, 07:11:41 AM
Conceptually, they seem to be a bit of mess.
Crabs aren't good swimmers, but you want to them to be swimmers, so you gave them wings?

Well ... yeah.  Crabs were the starting point of the design, but not the end point and not the only source of ideas.  I was also thinking of the scrab from the oddworld games, Alan Dean Foster's thranx, Feist's cho-ja, crayfish, scorpions, and dragonflies.

I can see how this would be a bit of a mental leap, but I wonder if the issue could be solved with presentation rather than substantive changes.  If I just described them as a crustacean rather than a crab, and just described the fins as fins rather than "like wings" would it be more palatable?  ('Cause I really do want them to swim)

Quote from: Pat on December 14, 2020, 07:11:41 AM
Steampunk metal and glass working crabs? Fire doesn't work in water, so they'd need to spend most of their time on land. Not to mention crabs are cooked by boiling, so there's a natural dissonance. Basing them on a specific crab might help, probably some kind of tidal variety. Though even intertidal crabs tend to remain wet, which goes against forges and metal working. Could just make them fully terrestrial.

Not steampunk - I meant more like swiss watches and small steam engines to drive machines in factories.  No "magic science" mechanisms in this setting, or mecha, not even steam trains, though that last might be an interesting idea for an adventure.

Good point on need for moisture - I may work that in as a campaign detail.

And the dichotomy is actually mostly intentional.  They need fire and dry areas for their crafts, but their food production is mostly underwater.  These plus their desire to be able to escape in either direction keeps them on the beaches, right were crabs should be.

Quote from: Pat on December 14, 2020, 07:11:41 AM
I'm having a hard time visualizing them. Are they some kind of centaur-crabs? I can't reconcile three ovals, anthropomorphic, crab, and praying mantis. Complex physical descriptions can be hard, without art.
[

Yep, definitely need a picture.  I'll ask my son to make one sometime soon.  "Centaur-crabs" is pretty close.  The scrabs I mentioned are probably the closest thing you'll find online to the appearance I have in mind.  One detail:  when they're swimming, they tuck their arms and legs in and arrange their segments in a straight line.

Quote from: Pat on December 14, 2020, 07:11:41 AM
li]How big are they? You're giving the dimension of ovals, but not the overall creature, nor how massive it is compared to a human.

They're about five feet tall, three feet front to back, weigh a bit more than a human, but have somewhat less volume.

Quote from: Pat on December 14, 2020, 07:11:41 AM
What do their homes look like? Huts, daub and wattle houses, stonework, hermit-like shells, metal bunkers?

I was thinking something like pueblos, but smoother.  I should add that.  I already mentioned that they're made of concrete and stone and painted in bright pastel colors.  I'm imagining colors like what you find in a beachside resort town.

Quote from: Pat on December 14, 2020, 07:11:41 AM
You're using some absolutist language, like saying they can't be soldiers. Might be better to describe them as tendencies instead.

I'll take a look.  I do try to avoid absolutes.

Quote from: Pat on December 14, 2020, 07:11:41 AM
You have crabs with "powerful" legs and claws, and you're making them weak? (Athletics.)

I should modify the language.  I like the idea of strong limbs for heavy work and delicate ones for light work like thranx or moties, but I still imagine them as not quite as strong as humans for the most part.  Also, the athletics skill list is Throwing, Leaping, Riding, Running, Brawn, Climbing, and Swimming, and I'll probably add sailing if it comes up.  Of these, only brawn is necessarily affected by sheer strength.

Quote from: Pat on December 14, 2020, 07:11:41 AM
Why would textiles be one of their major industries, if they wear almost no clothes?

Good catch.  I like the idea of them making tapestries, but it may just not fit.

Quote from: Pat on December 14, 2020, 07:11:41 AM
Also, that's way too detailed. Way, way too detailed. Even if you keep a lot of that for your personal use, you need a short summary for the players. I wouldn't go over a single short paragraph, or a half a dozen bullet points. It should clearly give an idea of what they look like, how they think, and their culture, and cut all the extraneous elements and implications.

The "player precis" at the start was intended as such.  Plus it will need the mechanics section.

If you have any additional comments or critiques, I'd love to hear them.

Mishihari

#46
Quote from: Chris24601 on December 14, 2020, 10:24:45 AM
My observation on the checklist... other than the grossly physical elements, the entire framework only works if the campaign is limited to a comparatively small region. Just variety of culture within human societies c. AD 1250 would require "human" to be a multitude of races (different motivations, social structures, technology, economies, etc.).

Presuming that every elf and dwarf (or whatever) is part of some global monoculture just makes them feel artificial.

To be fair, D&D has been pretty good about creating differences among the primary races; hill vs. mountain vs. deep dwarves or grey, high, wood, wild and dark elves, etc. and their campaign worlds typically focus primarily on a single continental region.

So that's all the more reason to incorporate such elements into your species themselves (unless they're intended to be some minor geographically isolated species).

Thanks for the feedback.

I think the bit about monoculture is debatable.  If a race is truly different from us physically and mentally, and the chaktak are the weidest race I plan to make for this, it's possible that the differences between their cultures would be small enough compared to the difference between their overall culture and ours that they would be virtually unnoticeable.  Or maybe not.  I don't think we'll ever know unless we meet a species of comparable intelligence to our own.

I will add a section for cultural/regional variations to my list though:  that makes a lot of sense.

But for this race, the chaktak were a minor part of the colonial influx and reproduce slower than the other races.  I'm placing their total number at about 100k across the entire campaign area, 20% of which live in human cities, so about 10 small cities and numerous smaller settlements.  In this case I think a single culture will do.

I'll make a note here too about the campaign area.  I tend to make an initial design of the elements of a game in very broad strokes before digging into the details, because each element of the game affects the others.  Later I'll detail/replace/file off the serial numbers.  For an initial impression of the geography, imagine the game area as the west coast of  North America from Juneau to Cabo San Lucas, with the colonizing powers based in Sydney, Bangkok, and Vladivostok.

Mishihari

#47
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on December 14, 2020, 02:32:22 PM
I found the chaktaks fascinating and I'd definitely play one in a campaign, though I might ask to tweak my particular PC in a couple of ways -- with typical RPG'er contrariness I immediately thought of a chaktak who'd left his home, or possibly was even kicked out of it, because he was, by chaktak standards, incredibly ornery and difficult to get along with (which of course will seem like just normal individuality to most humans).

I'm glad you liked them!

Your point about ornery individuals actually addresses something I was trying to figure out.  If they're safety and defensive minded and highly cooperative, why would they ever leave their homes, much less become adventurers?  I'm an advocate of letting players RP however they want, but providing reasonable reactions and consequences.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on December 14, 2020, 02:32:22 PM
I can see reasons to leave this out of the players' blurb -- there should always be things that even players don't know about their characters' own kind -- but it struck me that the metalworking secret might be a magical enzyme that the chaktak secrete which functions as an incredibly powerful solvent; it can turn most metals or minerals liquid through an alchemical reaction, and other enzymes allow metals to be reshaped into blades or mechanical components of incredible hardness, durability or tensile strength. This would explain how they got so good at craftsmanship while being limited to aquatic-adjacent environments, and would also explain why they refuse to sell the secret: they can't. (And if anyone ever finds out, chaktak may suddenly become very expensive slaves for any power without any conscience about such things.)

I like this a lot, both the idea of racial secrets and this specific one.  Consider it yoinked.  Thanks!

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on December 14, 2020, 02:32:22 PM

This in turn leads to other questions:
- When the chaktak do organize to fight, what kind of tactics do they use?

This point is also going on the list.  Off the top of my head, long spears and shields in phalanx formation on a surface, maybe with crossbows.  Mace, pick, or axe for close in fighting.  Plus swimming "cavalry" in the water.  (They don't actuall ride anything, but they're fast enough to be considered cavalry compared to the walking troops)  I'll need to think about this some more though.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on December 14, 2020, 02:32:22 PM
- Could they secrete an enzyme that corrodes organic material as well, i.e. spit acid?
That would be cool but I think might be problematic for a PC.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on December 14, 2020, 02:32:22 PM
- What happens to a chaktak deprived of the ability to enter water?  How long can an individual chaktak survive without it?  Does it have to be fresh or salt water?  Are there different subspecies with different requirements?
I think having penalties for being away from the water would be problematic for PCs, no matter how much the idea makes sense.  I did make them more vulnerable to heat/cold/exposure since logically they need to be cold-blooded.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on December 14, 2020, 02:32:22 PM
- How do chaktak treat those individuals who vary from their social norm?  It sounds like exile would be a worse punishment, legally, than imprisonment for them.
A good question that I should figure out.  Your point about exile makes a lot of sense.  I expect it would be terrifying for them.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on December 14, 2020, 02:32:22 PM
- What are some typical vices, weaknesses, and character flaws for chaktak characters? PCs wouldn't necessarily have to share these, but I could see many adventurers running afoul of a chaktak disdain for rudeness, physical ugliness, or violent tendencies -- if all it takes is one other PC losing his temper to a single Chak in a bar at night for every chaktak in town to suddenly start refusing business to the party, this could definitely disrupt a few plans.
- Alternately, I can see an eloquent and crafty demagogue exploiting, through beautiful and commanding speeches, the chaktak tendency to cooperation and love of beauty towards, shall we say, not necessarily benevolent ends.

A good question on the flaws, I'm adding that point to my list.  For the rest, thanks for the excellent suggestions.  Those will probably end up in the writeup.


Pat

Quote from: Mishihari on December 16, 2020, 03:12:04 AM
Thanks for taking the time to read and comment on the description.  I'm not sure if your questions are rhetorical to make a point or actually questions, but I'll treat them as the latter.
They're questions that came up while reading the entry. Things I think you should consider. I don't necessarily need an answer, but your answers mean we can continue talking about them.

Quote from: Mishihari on December 16, 2020, 03:12:04 AM
Quote from: Pat on December 14, 2020, 07:11:41 AM
Conceptually, they seem to be a bit of mess.
Crabs aren't good swimmers, but you want to them to be swimmers, so you gave them wings?

Well ... yeah.  Crabs were the starting point of the design, but not the end point and not the only source of ideas.  I was also thinking of the scrab from the oddworld games, Alan Dean Foster's thranx, Feist's cho-ja, crayfish, scorpions, and dragonflies.

I can see how this would be a bit of a mental leap, but I wonder if the issue could be solved with presentation rather than substantive changes.  If I just described them as a crustacean rather than a crab, and just described the fins as fins rather than "like wings" would it be more palatable?  ('Cause I really do want them to swim)

Quote from: Pat on December 14, 2020, 07:11:41 AM
Steampunk metal and glass working crabs? Fire doesn't work in water, so they'd need to spend most of their time on land. Not to mention crabs are cooked by boiling, so there's a natural dissonance. Basing them on a specific crab might help, probably some kind of tidal variety. Though even intertidal crabs tend to remain wet, which goes against forges and metal working. Could just make them fully terrestrial.

Not steampunk - I meant more like swiss watches and small steam engines to drive machines in factories.  No "magic science" mechanisms in this setting, or mecha, not even steam trains, though that last might be an interesting idea for an adventure.

Good point on need for moisture - I may work that in as a campaign detail.

And the dichotomy is actually mostly intentional.  They need fire and dry areas for their crafts, but their food production is mostly underwater.  These plus their desire to be able to escape in either direction keeps them on the beaches, right were crabs should be.

Quote from: Pat on December 14, 2020, 07:11:41 AM
I'm having a hard time visualizing them. Are they some kind of centaur-crabs? I can't reconcile three ovals, anthropomorphic, crab, and praying mantis. Complex physical descriptions can be hard, without art.

Yep, definitely need a picture.  I'll ask my son to make one sometime soon.  "Centaur-crabs" is pretty close.  The scrabs I mentioned are probably the closest thing you'll find online to the appearance I have in mind.  One detail:  when they're swimming, they tuck their arms and legs in and arrange their segments in a straight line.

Quote from: Pat on December 14, 2020, 07:11:41 AM
li]How big are they? You're giving the dimension of ovals, but not the overall creature, nor how massive it is compared to a human.

They're about five feet tall, three feet front to back, weigh a bit more than a human, but have somewhat less volume.
These all related. First, the easiest: Humans have close to neutral bouyancy in water. If your crabpeople are denser than humans, they'll sink like a rock. That's probably not what you're going for.

I'm still having a problem with the visual. Partly, it's because what you're describing is not a crab. It's not even close to a crab. This is a fairly typical body design for a crab:
http://www.fiddlercrab.info/uca_morphology.html

No three segmented body parts, no ovals, no fins. You're describing something else.

Which gets back to the presentation. You're comparing them to completely unrelated crustaceans, things that are arthropods but aren't crustaceans like scorpions and insects, and then you're giving them fins, and making them human-like. Crabs alone are hugely diverse, much less all of Crustacea (which isn't a natural group, BTW), or even further all of Arthropoda, not to mention fish and mammals. Here's an idea of how the different arthropods diverge:
https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/arthropods_10

There are two ways of approaching that. The first is the fantasy version, where it's a chimera. It's literally made up of the body parts of different creatures from all over the tree of life. It has crab claws, but the torso of spider or insect, for instance, with some anthropormophization thrown on top.

The second approach is the science fiction version. In this case, it's an alien. It's not a crab, it's not a crustacean, it's not an insect, it's something else. The human eye tries to make analogies with more familiar creatures, but it's not that. Since this is a fantasy setting, your probably don't want to go all in on this.

In either case, the visuals are complex, and hard to convey. Notice that the media you referenced are either visual, like video games, or long-form writing, like novels. You can convey a complex shape in a visual medium fairly easily, by simply depicting it. In that case, the important thing is that it's visually striking, not the words you use to describe it. And when writing, you can convey complex concepts to the reader, over many pages. It takes a lot of words to convey complex images, but it can be done. The written media is also a lot better at conveying context, like the the evolutionary logic behind the body design, or what the body parts are used for.

RPGs are neither a visual nor a long-form written medium, but an interactive, verbal medium. The problem is talking back and forth has very limited bandwidth, compared to an image or passive pages of written text. Yes, you can write as long as description as you want, but nobody's going to read them. Art can help, but then the art becomes essential and it helps to have a lot.

This is bad for complex, chimeric creatures. RPGs work best when the words used to convey something like a new race can draw on existing knowledge of the players, similar to the elevator pitch of a movie. Humanoid crabfolk? That's an easy sell. Elves, except with cute little horns? That also draws on preexisting expectations, with a minor shift. A crab that's not a crab but is also a praying mantis and a centaur and humanoid and has stained glass wings or fins... that's becoming very hard convey.

It's fine to diverge a bit. For instance, thri-kreen of Dark Sun are a very popular race. But they're only chimeric in a limited way -- they primarily stick to the praying mantis, just with humanoid/centauroid elements. And they still rely heavily on art.

I actually like the stained-glass wings. That's a great visual, and something unique. It's a good point of divergence. But I think the rest of your design needs to be a bit more coherent. There are too many different scattered pieces to pull together. You could stick to a more crab-like shape, make them more fully anthropomorphic, make them some kind of marine insects (not many), make them more like a krill or a lobster, or something.

One comment on the wings/fins: Brightly painted shells are fine, and brightly painted houses are fine, but they might take away a bit of the wonder of the wings. Too many competing visual elements.

Quote from: Mishihari on December 16, 2020, 03:12:04 AM
Good catch.  I like the idea of them making tapestries, but it may just not fit.
Tapestries also rot quickly in damp environments. But to be fair, metal also rusts.

Quote from: Mishihari on December 16, 2020, 03:12:04 AM
Quote from: Pat on December 14, 2020, 07:11:41 AM
Also, that's way too detailed. Way, way too detailed. Even if you keep a lot of that for your personal use, you need a short summary for the players. I wouldn't go over a single short paragraph, or a half a dozen bullet points. It should clearly give an idea of what they look like, how they think, and their culture, and cut all the extraneous elements and implications.

The "player precis" at the start was intended as such.  Plus it will need the mechanics section.
The problem is I read the player precis, but then I had to read the rest, and then go back to figure out what you meant in the precis. It didn't quickly summarize all the key elements. No mention of wings, for instance. And it seemed to conflict with the longer description. Only mention of a praying mantis, for example.

Zalman

Quote from: Mishihari on December 16, 2020, 03:56:51 AM
I think the bit about monoculture is debatable.  If a race is truly different from us physically and mentally, and the chaktak are the weidest race I plan to make for this, it's possible that the differences between their cultures would be small enough compared to the difference between their overall culture and ours that they would be virtually unnoticeable.

Which circles back to [someone's] point about making different races really different. For humanity to feel monocultural would require the racial differences to be wholly alien to anything human. "Good with a bow" won't cut it.
Old School? Back in my day we just called it "School."

Chris24601

Quote from: Zalman on December 16, 2020, 11:38:04 AM
Quote from: Mishihari on December 16, 2020, 03:56:51 AM
I think the bit about monoculture is debatable.  If a race is truly different from us physically and mentally, and the chaktak are the weidest race I plan to make for this, it's possible that the differences between their cultures would be small enough compared to the difference between their overall culture and ours that they would be virtually unnoticeable.

Which circles back to [someone's] point about making different races really different. For humanity to feel monocultural would require the racial differences to be wholly alien to anything human. "Good with a bow" won't cut it.
Yeah, and my point regarding humans and race as defined there was that a lot of the stuff expected to be standard for a race would be wildly different for humans from different areas.

One of the examples was "housing." Okay define for me the standard housing for humans c. AD 1250? The mud and thatch huts of various bushman tribes? The animal hide tents of various plains nomads? The sod huts in some regions or the wood longhouses or how about the people who lived in converted caves or slept out under the stars because their climate allowed it.

At a certain point you're just so generic that it loses all meaning... "humans live in adequate shelter for the region they find themselves in" is meaningless. So is "humans eat just about anything edible that's local to the region" is also basically meaningless.

Its only when you get down to more regional focus that you can start to make more useful generalizations; the staple of most medieval European humans was some type of grain they plant and harvest every year. The peasantry build relatively simple structures using local materials (typically wood, thatch, sod and fieldstone).

That's why I say that a lot of what you need to include for a race depends greatly on the size of your campaign setting. If you limit it to say, the equivalent of Medieval Europe in scope then a single culture might work (particularly if their population is small) though more prevalent races may need several sub-races (i.e. the wood elves are from "Britain", the high elves from "Italy", the grey elves from "Gaul" and the wild elves from "Germania").

By contrast a setting that spans the entire globe should either include many cultures/sub-races (if a species isn't purely local) or only bother with the "bio-cultural" elements (i.e. the effects of biology on culture, such as a race who are entirely carnivorous or herbivorous or who are photosynthetic) and leave the specifics to each region as you come to them.

Mishihari

Quote from: Pat on December 16, 2020, 06:51:01 AM
These all related. First, the easiest: Humans have close to neutral bouyancy in water. If your crabpeople are denser than humans, they'll sink like a rock. That's probably not what you're going for.

I'm still having a problem with the visual. Partly, it's because what you're describing is not a crab. It's not even close to a crab. This is a fairly typical body design for a crab:
http://www.fiddlercrab.info/uca_morphology.html

No three segmented body parts, no ovals, no fins. You're describing something else.

Which gets back to the presentation. You're comparing them to completely unrelated crustaceans, things that are arthropods but aren't crustaceans like scorpions and insects, and then you're giving them fins, and making them human-like. Crabs alone are hugely diverse, much less all of Crustacea (which isn't a natural group, BTW), or even further all of Arthropoda, not to mention fish and mammals. Here's an idea of how the different arthropods diverge:
https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/arthropods_10

There are two ways of approaching that. The first is the fantasy version, where it's a chimera. It's literally made up of the body parts of different creatures from all over the tree of life. It has crab claws, but the torso of spider or insect, for instance, with some anthropormophization thrown on top.

The second approach is the science fiction version. In this case, it's an alien. It's not a crab, it's not a crustacean, it's not an insect, it's something else. The human eye tries to make analogies with more familiar creatures, but it's not that. Since this is a fantasy setting, your probably don't want to go all in on this.

In either case, the visuals are complex, and hard to convey. Notice that the media you referenced are either visual, like video games, or long-form writing, like novels. You can convey a complex shape in a visual medium fairly easily, by simply depicting it. In that case, the important thing is that it's visually striking, not the words you use to describe it. And when writing, you can convey complex concepts to the reader, over many pages. It takes a lot of words to convey complex images, but it can be done. The written media is also a lot better at conveying context, like the the evolutionary logic behind the body design, or what the body parts are used for.

RPGs are neither a visual nor a long-form written medium, but an interactive, verbal medium. The problem is talking back and forth has very limited bandwidth, compared to an image or passive pages of written text. Yes, you can write as long as description as you want, but nobody's going to read them. Art can help, but then the art becomes essential and it helps to have a lot.

This is bad for complex, chimeric creatures. RPGs work best when the words used to convey something like a new race can draw on existing knowledge of the players, similar to the elevator pitch of a movie. Humanoid crabfolk? That's an easy sell. Elves, except with cute little horns? That also draws on preexisting expectations, with a minor shift. A crab that's not a crab but is also a praying mantis and a centaur and humanoid and has stained glass wings or fins... that's becoming very hard convey.

It's fine to diverge a bit. For instance, thri-kreen of Dark Sun are a very popular race. But they're only chimeric in a limited way -- they primarily stick to the praying mantis, just with humanoid/centauroid elements. And they still rely heavily on art.
I actually like the stained-glass wings. That's a great visual, and something unique. It's a good point of divergence. But I think the rest of your design needs to be a bit more coherent. There are too many different scattered pieces to pull together. You could stick to a more crab-like shape, make them more fully anthropomorphic, make them some kind of marine insects (not many), make them more like a krill or a lobster, or something.

I can see you've done some very thorough thinking on this topic.  There are parts I don't entirely agree with, but all of it helps me clarify my thinking, so this is great.

With this design I really am going for the "alien" approach you mentioned, not the chimera or mild divergence.  The various sources are meant to describe inspiration and near cases, not an exact description.  I needed a point of departure, so I picked a crab, but as you noted I quickly diverged from that design.

I'm fascinated by the idea of true aliens, that are actually different in body and mind than we are.  They're difficult to find in fiction and nonexistent in real life.  The best example I can think of, by the way, is CJ Cherryh's Chanur books, where the aliens range from strange to incomprehensible.  I've met a fair number of peopple with a similar interest.  I'm hesitant to speak for him, but Mr. Tannhauser seems to be of the same mind, for example.

But as you pointed out there are challenges to this approach with RPGs.  The first is communicating the nature of the race.  You pointed out the challenges, which was very helpful, but I think it can be done.  I can see I'm going to have to work at it though.  I'll need a variety of high quality pictures and a clear, condensed description of behavior and psychology.  And the exact physical appearance is not as important as the psychology and the rest.  If it turns out to be too hard, I can simplify the body, as you suggested.

The second challenge is going to be interest.  My target audience is 10-13 year old children.  Are they going to want to roleplay slightly alien creatures?  I would have at that age, but they may just want to bang on things with swords and blow stuff up with magic.  I guess I'll find out.  If not, at least I'll have an NPC race that I enjoy.

Quote from: Pat on December 16, 2020, 06:51:01 AM
One comment on the wings/fins: Brightly painted shells are fine, and brightly painted houses are fine, but they might take away a bit of the wonder of the wings. Too many competing visual elements.

I'm glad you like the wings, and that's a really good point.  With the wings I'm going for unexpected beauty on an otherwise ugly creature. ( I was also hoping to make any of them who've read the Elric books nervous when they saw pastel towers, though they're not as graceful as the Melniboneans'.)

Quote from: Pat on December 16, 2020, 06:51:01 AM
Tapestries also rot quickly in damp environments. But to be fair, metal also rusts.

Oh yes, hence the comment about rust-proofing.  I worked for many years in the development of various modern war machines, and they all had specs regarding salt spray environment.  I couldn't just ignore that.

Quote from: Pat on December 16, 2020, 06:51:01 AM
The problem is I read the player precis, but then I had to read the rest, and then go back to figure out what you meant in the precis. It didn't quickly summarize all the key elements. No mention of wings, for instance. And it seemed to conflict with the longer description. Only mention of a praying mantis, for example.

Well, it is a first draft.  I sat down and wrote the whole thing in about 2 hours nonstop.  The second will be much better, especially when I take into consideration the comments of folks such as yourself.

Mishihari

#52
Quote from: Chris24601 on December 16, 2020, 12:59:38 PM
Yeah, and my point regarding humans and race as defined there was that a lot of the stuff expected to be standard for a race would be wildly different for humans from different areas.

One of the examples was "housing." Okay define for me the standard housing for humans c. AD 1250? The mud and thatch huts of various bushman tribes? The animal hide tents of various plains nomads? The sod huts in some regions or the wood longhouses or how about the people who lived in converted caves or slept out under the stars because their climate allowed it.

At a certain point you're just so generic that it loses all meaning... "humans live in adequate shelter for the region they find themselves in" is meaningless. So is "humans eat just about anything edible that's local to the region" is also basically meaningless.

Its only when you get down to more regional focus that you can start to make more useful generalizations; the staple of most medieval European humans was some type of grain they plant and harvest every year. The peasantry build relatively simple structures using local materials (typically wood, thatch, sod and fieldstone).

That's why I say that a lot of what you need to include for a race depends greatly on the size of your campaign setting. If you limit it to say, the equivalent of Medieval Europe in scope then a single culture might work (particularly if their population is small) though more prevalent races may need several sub-races (i.e. the wood elves are from "Britain", the high elves from "Italy", the grey elves from "Gaul" and the wild elves from "Germania").

By contrast a setting that spans the entire globe should either include many cultures/sub-races (if a species isn't purely local) or only bother with the "bio-cultural" elements (i.e. the effects of biology on culture, such as a race who are entirely carnivorous or herbivorous or who are photosynthetic) and leave the specifics to each region as you come to them.

I do think that having multiple cultures for each race makes sense, but there's a tradeoff.  I'm only willing to spend so much time on this part of the game, and if I introduce multiple cultures for each race, I'll need to go into the races in less depth, or use fewer races, neither of which I care to do.

Fortunately, the size of the play area, described in a previous post, might be such that having single cultures might not bother you too much.

I still think that large differences from humanity can make cultural differences unnoticeable to us.  Your housing example is a good one.  I'll take some examples from an unfinished game I worked on a few years ago.  The premises were a specific type of dimension travel (akin to Amber shadowalking) and multiple races that had taken very different approaches to technology.  I don't have the notes in front of me, but I think I can remember enough to make it clear.

Humans build dwellings out of natural material they gather and shape.

The short, skinny lizard people make everything with biotechnology, never invented any other type of tech, and never manipulate themselves.  They make plants and fungus grow into the form of living buildings.

The big burly lizard people also exclusively use biotechnology, but only on themselves.  They don't need buildings.  Everything they need is either within them or can be formed from them.  Frex, if they need a hammer, they will form one of their limbs into one.

The wasp people use material exuded from themselves.

The spooky raccoon people make their homes of pure magic and build across dimensions.

I could also postulate races that use nanotechnology to form buildings whose walls and structures are also high power computers, homes made from forcefields, homes burrowed out of rock, buildings made of pocket dimensions, and so on.

The point is that none of these guys are going to care whether human homes are made out of stone or thatch or bamboo or whatever, which we would consider a critical part of their culture.  They all see it as just a pile of stuff.  We would probably look at the differences they think important and think them trivial as well.

And none of these races was all that different from humans in their thinking.



mightybrain

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 14, 2020, 10:24:45 AMD&D has been pretty good about creating differences among the primary races; hill vs. mountain vs. deep dwarves or grey, high, wood, wild and dark elves, etc. and their campaign worlds typically focus primarily on a single continental region.

In that they are mostly following Tolkien. If you look at the D&D invented races such as dragonborn or goliath there is a lot less variety.

The variation you get in Tolkien comes from his many years of world building. He created a world from genesis through to the point of his stories. But he still limited himself to one region and a few key races. He is much more vague in his writing when it comes to other parts of the world or races like the Pukel-men.

Pat

Quote from: Mishihari on December 17, 2020, 06:22:53 AM
I can see you've done some very thorough thinking on this topic.  There are parts I don't entirely agree with, but all of it helps me clarify my thinking, so this is great.
That's the intent. I don't like telling people what to think, so I explain my reasoning. That way people can decide on their own whether they agree or disagree. Glad you're taking it in the right spirit.

Quote from: Mishihari on December 17, 2020, 06:22:53 AM
With this design I really am going for the "alien" approach you mentioned, not the chimera or mild divergence.  The various sources are meant to describe inspiration and near cases, not an exact description.  I needed a point of departure, so I picked a crab, but as you noted I quickly diverged from that design.

I'm fascinated by the idea of true aliens, that are actually different in body and mind than we are.  They're difficult to find in fiction and nonexistent in real life.  The best example I can think of, by the way, is CJ Cherryh's Chanur books, where the aliens range from strange to incomprehensible.  I've met a fair number of peopple with a similar interest.  I'm hesitant to speak for him, but Mr. Tannhauser seems to be of the same mind, for example.

But as you pointed out there are challenges to this approach with RPGs.  The first is communicating the nature of the race.  You pointed out the challenges, which was very helpful, but I think it can be done.  I can see I'm going to have to work at it though.  I'll need a variety of high quality pictures and a clear, condensed description of behavior and psychology.  And the exact physical appearance is not as important as the psychology and the rest.  If it turns out to be too hard, I can simplify the body, as you suggested.

The second challenge is going to be interest.  My target audience is 10-13 year old children.  Are they going to want to roleplay slightly alien creatures?  I would have at that age, but they may just want to bang on things with swords and blow stuff up with magic.  I guess I'll find out.  If not, at least I'll have an NPC race that I enjoy.
I've only read a few more fantasy-oriented Cherryh books, so I can't really comment on her aliens. But I've read the Strugatsky Brothers, Le Guin, Niven, Lem, Bear, and many others. Getting beyond humans with bumpy foreheads is one of the most difficult feats in writing, and it's even harder in RPGs because of the limited bandwidth and reliance on popular tropes. The same problem happens in fantasy races, where conveying the alien nature of the fey is often glossed over in favor of humans with powers. More familiar races like the elf just become fashion statements, and more exotic races tend to be defined by their powers. The best you can hope for is something like the aliens of Traveller or Star Frontiers, and even that requires a significant commitment from the players. With children of that age, who tend to be immersed in pop culture, and want to see themselves in everything, it's even harder. I'll applaud if you can pull it off, but I'm skeptical.

One thing I'd recommend is rolling with the punches. If they get invested, fine. But if they just want to play a crabby version of themselves, accept it. Playing race police, and constantly trying to force them to play according to your conception, is a great way to suck the fun out of something.

Quote from: Mishihari on December 17, 2020, 06:22:53 AM
Quote from: Pat on December 16, 2020, 06:51:01 AM
One comment on the wings/fins: Brightly painted shells are fine, and brightly painted houses are fine, but they might take away a bit of the wonder of the wings. Too many competing visual elements.

I'm glad you like the wings, and that's a really good point.  With the wings I'm going for unexpected beauty on an otherwise ugly creature. ( I was also hoping to make any of them who've read the Elric books nervous when they saw pastel towers, though they're not as graceful as the Melniboneans'.)
Towers? That diverges a bit from pueblos. If you're going for unexpected beauty, then you could juxtapose rough dull shells and bright wings with a similar architecture: Rocky, dull exterior but brightly painted interiors.

Quote from: Mishihari on December 17, 2020, 06:22:53 AM
Quote from: Pat on December 16, 2020, 06:51:01 AM
The problem is I read the player precis, but then I had to read the rest, and then go back to figure out what you meant in the precis. It didn't quickly summarize all the key elements. No mention of wings, for instance. And it seemed to conflict with the longer description. Only mention of a praying mantis, for example.

Well, it is a first draft.  I sat down and wrote the whole thing in about 2 hours nonstop.  The second will be much better, especially when I take into consideration the comments of folks such as yourself.
Perfectly reasonable.

Mishihari

#55
I finally got back to the chaktak to do a second draft and thought I'd share the results and a couple of comments on the process.  Comments and feedback are welcome, but I'll be setting this down now to work on the next race and won't get back to it til I do the third draft of the entire book.  I'm not planning on presenting any other races here, but at some point I'll make the game available for anyone interested in looking at it.

I found that while the format I previously employed was useful for the design process, it did not do a good job of presenting the information in a clear manner.  I ended up reorganizing and splitting the material into 3 sections for different parts of the game book, one for chargen, one for the setting description, and one for the narrator section.  The intent is that players only need to read the chargen section, but the setting section is there for additional info if they want it.

While I still intend to use nonstandard races for my game, I'm starting to see the wisdom of using the ones everyone knows.  This was kind of a lot of work and I felt like I was writing a textbook.  If I was using dwarves in the game, I could just say "they're dwarves" and add a few mechanics and be done with it. 

I will really, really need some good drawings for these guys.

You'll probably notice that I incorporated many of the comments and ideas from this thread, so thanks to those who contributed.

So before the description, here are a couple of blurbs from the rules that are necessary to understand the mechanics.

Talents
Talents reflect a character's innate abilities.  Each hero starts with seven points that can be distributed among the talents as desired, subject to the limitation that no more than five points may be put into a single talent.
The talents are
   Attack - used for all physical attacks
   Defense - used to defend against all attacks
   Athletics - used for mobility and feats of strength
   Guile - used for stealth and deception
   Sense - for perception, navigation, and survival
   Magic - used to perform magical arts

Races and talents
The various races have strengths and weaknesses as compared to humanity with respect to talents.  If a talent is strong, then a new hero must allocate at least one point to that talent, and may allocate up to six.  If a talent is weak, then no more than four points may be initially allocated to that talent.

And here is the description...

CHARGEN SECTION

Chaktak heroes  (need pic)

Chaktak are amphibians with a chitinous exoskeleton, segmented into three flattened ovoids.  They can breathe in air and saltwater, but not fresh water.  When standing, with a height of about five feet, their segments are arranged in a "Z" shape, giving them a centauroid appearance, and when swimming, assisted by powerful fins on their back, their segments fall into a straight line.  They have four legs attached to the nether segment and four arms on the center segment, while the upper segment serves as a head.

While a chaktak's appearance is disturbing to many humans,  those who get to know them find them friendly, cooperative, and helpful.  Chaktaks dislike interpersonal conflict, and will often simply leave unnoticed if their social environment is uncomfortable.

A chaktak will always have a plan for what to do if a danger appears, and will assume that others do the same, even if it knows intellectually that those of other races probably won't.  While chaktak enjoy humans' enterprise and initiative, they find them to be dangerously careless and shortsighted.

Chaktaks are the master craftsmen and artists of the new world.

Mechanics

Chaktaks are strong in the sense talent and weak in athletics.

Due to their hard shell, they have +2 natural armor, but they only recover 3 points of health per full rest.

Chaktak are strong natural swimmers, and gain +2 spaces to any swim movement.  They must also place at least one point in the swimming skill.

Chaktak are vulnerable to adverse environments and take double fatigue loss from heat, cold, and exposure.




SETTING SECTION

Chaktak

Physical (really, really need pix)

Chaktak are amphibians with a chitinous exoskeleton, segmented into three flattened ovoids.  They are comfortable in air and saltwater, but cannot breathe in fresh water.

When standing on a surface in air or underwater, they arrange their segments in a "Z" shape, giving them a centauroid appearance about five feet tall and three feet long.  The lower segment has four legs used for locomotion, each ending in a point.  The center segment has an upper pair of arms with small hands for delicate work, and a larger lower pair of arms for heavy labor.  The top segment is the head, housing the mouth, sensory organs, and mandibles used both for eating and very fine physical manipulation. 

When swimming, the segments are arranged in a straight line, and the arms and legs are tucked close to the body.  The central and rear segments each have a pair of hard swim fins similar to a ladybug's wings, which when extended make the chaktak strong swimmers.  When the chaktak is standing, the fins are tucked in to the body and are indistinguishable from the rest of the exoskeleton.

Chaktak bodies are rough and bumpy with dull colors:  grey, brown, green, and blue.  Mottled combinations of two colors are not uncommon.  The fins, when extended, are translucent and appear similar to stained glass windows in abstract patterns.  It is very common for chaktaks to paint small images, symbols, and designs on their bodies in bright pastel colors.

On close examination, the seemingly monolithic exoskeleton can be seen to be composed of individual plates.  The plates grow as the chaktak ages, and can heal or be discarded and regrown if injured.  Chaktak take longer to heal if seriously injured than humans.  They live to an age of about 130 years, and are fully functional until the last year.

Mental (motivations, strengths, and weaknesses)

Chaktaks are defensive minded and tend to be cautious in most matters.  They always have a plan in mind to deal with potential dangers.  Their settlements are fortresses, and have hidden bolt-holes leading out on both the water and land sides.  They prefer to flee and hide rather than fight in dangerous situations, but are fierce if cornered.  They are slightly agorophobic.

Chaktak have a drive to create beauty.  Anything they make most be both functional and elegant.  They generally prefer simple, elegant designs to ornateness.

Chaktaks greatly value social tranquility.  They have a stronger drive to cooperate than humans, and humans find them to have warm, helpful personalities.  While they will follow authority they have assented to, they will fiercely resist having another's will imposed on them at an individual, group, or societal level.  Bullies may find themselves mobbed by a group of chaktaks, and more than one warlord has attempted to conquer a chaktak settlement only to find it abandoned as its entire population relocated.

Once they have made up their mind on a subject, they resist changing it.  If offended, they are slow to forgive.  They tend to be more susceptible to social pressure than humans.  They are judgmental of correctable ugliness of any sort and poor craftsmanship.  Either will cause them to think poorly of the individual involved.

Social organization

Chaktak families consist of a male/female pair that produces offspring, their four to six eldest children, and six to ten younger children.  The eldest children will remain with their parents for their entire lives and tend not to reproduce.  The younger children leave their families and form their own homes once they fully physically mature, at an age of about 30 years. 

Each settlement has a leading council with about 1 member per 100 adult chaktaks in the settlement.  Council members are chosen by discussion and consensus among groups of chaktak, and make decisions in the same way.  This works well for the chaktak, though it probably wouldn't work at all for humans.  In an emergency a single decisive leader may be chosen.  Chaktak form commercial houses of three to 50 individuals for endeavors such as farming and craft production.

Each city, town, and village is independent, with no nation or larger governmental unit tying them together, though settlements commonly cooperate on projects of mutual interest.

Territory (population, settlements, environmental impact, buildings)

The chaktaks live in settlements along saltwater coasts, always half in and half out of the water.  Of the estimated one hundred thousand chaktak in the new world, about twenty thousand live in human cities.  The remainder inhabit four cities of about ten thousand, eleven towns of about one thousand, and numerous smaller villages and settlements ranging in size down to twenty chaktak.  The old world holds chaktak cities with populations in the tens of thousands, but none of that size exist in the new world. 

Chaktak settlements tend to be long and narrow, following the coast.  Chaktak develop the land side of their territory only minimally, with a perimeter cleared around each settlement for defensive purposes and firewood, and possibly a few orchards.  The chaktak only rarely build roads, instead relying on ships and undersea travel for transportation.  On the underwater side of settlements, they create extensive farms, both of animal and plant varieties.

Buildings are made of stone and cement, and are similar in appearance to pueblos.  Their exteriors are rough and painted in natural colors, similar to surrounding rocks and sand, but the interiors are painted in bright pastel colors with simple, elegant patterns.  Larger towns and cities will have buildings up to five stories tall, and all chaktak buildings have multiple basements with connecting tunnels between them.  All chaktak settlements have a stone and cement wall.

Recent History

Groups of chaktak accompanied Tacha humans from the old world, mostly in a support rather than adventurous role.  While old world chaktak cities are spectacular places of beauty and learning, since they reproduce relatively slowly, new world settlements have grown slowly compared to those of other races.  Trouble brewed when the Saeng family rose to leadership among the new world Tacha.  While the previous rulers treated the chaktak as equal partners, the Saeng dynasty attempted to treat them as subjects, imposing their will upon them.  Almost the entire chaktak population of the Tacha cities departed almost overnight, some creating their own settlements up and down the coast and some moving to Cosk or Solund lands.  The new world Tacha economy nearly collapsed, and after extensive negotiation, some chaktak consented to return.  Since this event, most rulers have tended towards a hands-off approach to chaktak within their borders.

Industry (Technology, Professions, Economy, Trade)

Chaktaks have the most advanced technology in the new world: their most advanced devices include small steam engines used to power machines in manufactories and highly accurate mechanical clocks.  Chaktaks steel and cloth are highly valued because of closely held methods used to give them exceptional strength and durability, as well as a resistance to degradation from exposure to saltwater.

The chaktak are widely considered to have the best artisans and artists in the new world.  They do well with their underwater farms, but are lackluster at best in raising food on land.  They also tend to be less proficient in professions dealing with harvesting natural resources, such as logging and mining.  Professional soldiers are very rare among the chaktak, due to both their distaste for the hierarchical organizations required and their aversion to danger.

Chaktak have a traditional monetary economy and trade extensively with other communities.  They buy raw goods from other races and sell them finished goods, especially arms and armor, tools, furniture, and art.

Because wealth is shared evenly within an enterprise and within a family, their rich/poor divide tends to be much smaller than that of humans. 

Relations with other races

Chaktak and humans tend to get along well together, both on a personal and societal level.  Their is a mutual mistrust with the Kohbi, due to their generally lawless nature and previous conflicts.  Chaktak also find the mizvete likeable, though they are confused by their stories, behavior, and humor.

Social Behavior (values and some sample customs, crime and justice)

Cooperation, peace, and tranquility are valued highly.  Change and new things are treated with caution and distrust.  Generosity and self improvement are encouraged.

A chaktak will always offer food when visited, even in a store or factory.  Also, while food is bought and sold, any chaktak will share food with anyone in need without recompense.  Every four years each settlement has a maturation festival, where children of at least 30 years old are promoted to adult status.  There is a weeklong festival, at the end of which the new adults move to new homes within the settlement or depart.  (about 50/50).  The chaktak paint their buildings in one to three bright pastel colors, blue and white being the most common.

Crime is rare among the chaktak, and violent crime is rarer still.  Those convicted of property crimes are required to make restitution and enter a period of service to the community under the direction of the council, which can range from several days to years.  Violent crimes are punished by banishment, as is refusal to serve a service sentence.  Banished chaktak who engage in further crimes against the community may be executed.

Culture (Language, Food, Clothing, Art, Religion, Recreation)

The chaktaks have their own language, primarily consisting of hard consonants and clicks, but all but the youngest speak patois, and proficiency in other languages is common.

Chaktak harvest fish and kelp from underwater farms.  Most settlements will also have a small fishing fleet.  They cultivate orchards near their towns.  They enjoy vegetables but do not grow them themselves.

Chaktak have little need for covering and protection because of their tough shells but they wear vests and belts for the pockets.  Small symbols and patterns painted on their bodies in bright pastel are common.

Chaktak work in every artistic medium, but are best known for metalworking and glass.  They tend towards simple, elegant form and bright pastel colors in abstract patterns.

Most chaktaks are religious and regularly attend to their devotions.

Arts and crafts are both work and recreation to the chaktak.  Sea turtles and dolphins are common pets and companions.  Music, strategy games, and a sport akin to swimming touch football are popular pastimes.

Combat

When chaktak fight in an organized fashion, they use phalanxes with shields and spears.  When this is not practical, they will use weapons that are effective against their thick shells, such as picks and axes.  They have a strong preference  for fighting defensively, especially from fortifications or in narrow tunnels.  When swimming, they wield spears, employing their speed in the water to execute hit and run attacks.

Cultural/regional variations

The kritak are a freshwater variant of the chaktak.  They control several old world regions with large inland lakes and river valleys.  While similar to the chaktak, they are larger, xenophobic, and aggressive within their territory.  Since they do not get along with other races and cannot cross the ocean on their own, none have made the trip to the new world.




NARRATOR SECTION

Chaktak

Rationale for encounters

There are a variety of reasons for the heroes to seek out chaktak.  High quality weapons, arms, and equipment are made by the chaktak and are available for sale.  They are also an attractive market for the sale of valuable raw materials, such as metal, gems, and fine wood, often willing to pay more than market price for such.  Chaktak settlements are useful refuges in otherwise hostile territory.  The chaktak are welcoming to visitors that behave well, and their towns are very well defended.  Finally the chaktak have a history of hiring groups of other races for missions of various sorts, since they prefer to stay home themselves.

Individuals encountered

While the chaktak description in the Setting section describes most individuals the heroes will meet reasonably well, individuals can vary significantly.  The further a character is from chaktak society, the greater the likely variance.  Chaktak living among other races tend to take on some of their attitudes and values.  Those traveling in small groups such as trade caravans and oceangoing ships will be much bolder than usual.  Solo chaktaks met by the heroes are likely to be exiled criminals.

Complications

A hero who offends a chaktak through violation of his social norms may find that all of the chaktak associated with him become uncooperative:  prices are raised, inns are suddenly "full," needed craftsmen are unavailable, and so on.  Heroes whom the chaktak find admirable can encounter an opposite problem:  pestering by chaktak trying to be helpful.  In a few cases individuals have taken advantage of chaktak culture by first ingratiating themselves, then using the chaktaks' cooperativeness to manipulate them into activities not in their own best interest,

Racial secrets

Every race can have secrets, most known by at most a few individuals.  Here are a few examples of chaktak secrets the narrator can choose for his game.  One or more of these may be true in a particular game, and the narrator is free to make up his own.

•   The secret of the chaktaks' saltwater-proof weapons grade steel is a tiny amount of their own blood.  Placing a drop of blood in molten metal is a chaktak tradition.  Even they don't know what it does.

•   Chaktak saltwater-proof textiles come from a particular type of kelp grown in deep, hidden farms.

•   Chaktak and kritak are actually the same race, with the physical and psychological differentiation brought about by incubating eggs in fresh or salt water.

•   Executed criminals are eaten by the community.

•   Chaktak children receive a portion of the memories of their parents.

•   Hidden communities of chaktak exist in deep underwater caves.  Certain plants convert seawater into breathable air.