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A rant on Tasha, 5e, and we are not in OSR-land anymore

Started by Eric Diaz, November 28, 2020, 02:03:56 PM

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mightybrain

I think they'd be better off writing guidelines on how to create your own new classes, races, magic items, and so on rather than just splatting out pre-baked variations. It's the same problem in every edition.

Chris24601

Quote from: JeffB on December 01, 2020, 08:49:27 AM
AFAIC, 4E's DMG, is the best DMG written to actually teach a DM how to run the game. 5E, 3E, 2E, and even 1e (though my personal fave) all pale in comparison in this regard. And generally the best parts of the 5E DMG, are lifts (sometimes word for word) from the 4E DMG.
It's really a shame how many people allow their absolute hatred of 4E to convince themselves that absolutely everything in the Edition was wretched and should be rejected not on its own merits, but just because it was a part of 4E.

There are a LOT of good things that 4E came up with worth preserving and the DMG's  "DM advice" is definitely one of those things. Which, as mentioned, 5e lifted and tried to pretend was it's own innovation.

5e did a lot of that. I still remember that article from Monte Cook's when he signed on early in 5e's development where he tried to sell Passive Perception as this revolutionary new thing they'd only just come up with... that had been part of 4E from Day 1. It got him roundly mocked, but was  also one of the earliest indicators that the 5e dev team intended to fully throw 4E under the bus and claim that anything that was lifted from 4E was first invented by the 5e team.

Honestly, the part I miss most from 4E was the extensive work it did on reimagining a lot of the fluff to create a much more useful default setting than the standard D&D setup.

Even there it was such good work the 5e team cribbed from it. The 4E World Axis cosmology was so effective that even 5e stole the primary aspects of it (the 5e Great Wheel is basically 4E's World Axis with the Great Wheel dropped into the Astral Sea in place of an archipelago of islands/divine realms (that were the great wheel planes just not in a wheel formation).

JeffB

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 01, 2020, 10:19:32 AM
Quote from: JeffB on December 01, 2020, 08:49:27 AM
AFAIC, 4E's DMG, is the best DMG written to actually teach a DM how to run the game. 5E, 3E, 2E, and even 1e (though my personal fave) all pale in comparison in this regard. And generally the best parts of the 5E DMG, are lifts (sometimes word for word) from the 4E DMG.
It's really a shame how many people allow their absolute hatred of 4E to convince themselves that absolutely everything in the Edition was wretched and should be rejected not on its own merits, but just because it was a part of 4E.

There are a LOT of good things that 4E came up with worth preserving and the DMG's  "DM advice" is definitely one of those things. Which, as mentioned, 5e lifted and tried to pretend was it's own innovation.

5e did a lot of that. I still remember that article from Monte Cook's when he signed on early in 5e's development where he tried to sell Passive Perception as this revolutionary new thing they'd only just come up with... that had been part of 4E from Day 1. It got him roundly mocked, but was  also one of the earliest indicators that the 5e dev team intended to fully throw 4E under the bus and claim that anything that was lifted from 4E was first invented by the 5e team.

Honestly, the part I miss most from 4E was the extensive work it did on reimagining a lot of the fluff to create a much more useful default setting than the standard D&D setup.

Even there it was such good work the 5e team cribbed from it. The 4E World Axis cosmology was so effective that even 5e stole the primary aspects of it (the 5e Great Wheel is basically 4E's World Axis with the Great Wheel dropped into the Astral Sea in place of an archipelago of islands/divine realms (that were the great wheel planes just not in a wheel formation).

You'll get no argument from me. I'm one of those old bassturds who started in the 70s with the LBBs, but 4E is my fave edition from Wizards. It was a massive breath of fresh air after 30 years of the SoS in lore, and mechanics. Frankly 4E brought out more creativity from me than any edition since B/X hit the shelves. And I'd rather run it than any other D&D edition save perhaps my OD&D homebrew. I did make many simplifications for my ToTM style.

I get that it's not everybody's cup of tea, but I had tons of fun running the exact same type of adventures and worlds I started with and have been doing since 1977- an episodic, "story game" style in the manner of Conan or F&GM S&S short tales*


*Which many luminaries in the OSR ( who are younger than I am and started later than I did), have explained to me that my original group  was doing it "wrong" back then, and I've continued to follow in these erroneous ways all these years.   :'(



Bogmagog

I loved 5E and DMed it for years. At first I thought it was THE edition. As time went on however, I started to see more and more of its warts and added more and more house rules to fix it. Until I had a small book of house rules and even then they added so much to the game that went against the direction I felt like the game needed to go.

I NEVER felt 5E was Old School at all. I just do not see it. Sure you could make it Old School by adding tons of house rules and chopping it up. Default though it is as modern as they come.

As time went on I just got more and more dissatisfied. I just got the new rule book for 5E on the same day I got my copy of Old School Essentials Rules Tome. 

Within hours I started my new Old School Essentials game. Granted it's still early days for my game but I have not felt this happy about rpg's in many years.

I have not played a single edition of D&D that I didn't like, but not every edition have I loved for sure.

Steven Mitchell

I enjoyed 4E for what it was.  Ran a very successful, multi-year campaign with it.  I managed that by ignoring all the advice in the DMG.

When you equate "criticism" with "hatred" is says more about you than the target.

Ratman_tf

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on December 01, 2020, 01:08:17 PM
I enjoyed 4E for what it was.  Ran a very successful, multi-year campaign with it.  I managed that by ignoring all the advice in the DMG.

I ran Dark Sun with 4e, and liked it well enough. It helped that that edition of Dark Sun incorporated a lot of the fixes for issues that early 4e had.
And yeah, first step was to toss the DMG advice. Though the setting book had some good stuff in it.

Mostly 4e got me into running the game with miniatures, which I continued with other games and editions.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

Razor 007

If 5E releases a Dark Sun hardcover, I hope they do the setting justice.

But then again, slavery and cannibalism are parts of the setting.   I don't see WOTC having the stomach to go there, in this climate.
I need you to roll a perception check.....

Shasarak

Quote from: JeffB on December 01, 2020, 08:49:27 AM
AFAIC, 4E's DMG, is the best DMG written to actually teach a DM how to run the game. 5E, 3E, 2E, and even 1e (though my personal fave) all pale in comparison in this regard. And generally the best parts of the 5E DMG, are lifts (sometimes word for word) from the 4E DMG.

I just dont get this.  If it was the best to teach a DM how to run a game then why was it not more successful?
Who da Drow?  U da drow! - hedgehobbit

There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

VisionStorm

Quote from: Shasarak on December 01, 2020, 02:32:36 PM
Quote from: JeffB on December 01, 2020, 08:49:27 AM
AFAIC, 4E's DMG, is the best DMG written to actually teach a DM how to run the game. 5E, 3E, 2E, and even 1e (though my personal fave) all pale in comparison in this regard. And generally the best parts of the 5E DMG, are lifts (sometimes word for word) from the 4E DMG.

I just dont get this.  If it was the best to teach a DM how to run a game then why was it not more successful?

I never really got into 4e, but assuming that the DMG was that good, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it wasn't more successful because the game itself sucked. And you can make the greatest DMG in the world, but if the system you're making it for sucks (or simply doesn't get enough traction with its target audience) then the game itself is still gonna flop no matter how good the DMG supposedly is.

JeffB

Quote from: Shasarak on December 01, 2020, 02:32:36 PM
Quote from: JeffB on December 01, 2020, 08:49:27 AM
AFAIC, 4E's DMG, is the best DMG written to actually teach a DM how to run the game. 5E, 3E, 2E, and even 1e (though my personal fave) all pale in comparison in this regard. And generally the best parts of the 5E DMG, are lifts (sometimes word for word) from the 4E DMG.

I just dont get this.  If it was the best to teach a DM how to run a game then why was it not more successful?

Seems pretty simple to me. The majority of the fanbase rejected the game mechanics. The DM advice is gold no matter the edition.

Shasarak

Quote from: JeffB on December 01, 2020, 05:29:48 PM
Seems pretty simple to me. The majority of the fanbase rejected the game mechanics. The DM advice is gold no matter the edition.

I dont know how much time I spent trying to get skill challenges to work only to find out in the end that the advice was actually gold all along.
Who da Drow?  U da drow! - hedgehobbit

There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

Omega

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 29, 2020, 08:17:34 AM
Quote from: TJS on November 28, 2020, 04:29:37 PM
I agree with the OP.  I said something similar in the other thread.

I think the game and the 5E community have been going in the wrong direction - which wouldn't matter so much but if feels at time so predominant that it's strangling everything else around it.

5E and its community have been trying to kill off anything not 5E through their Organized Play in FLGS for years now.

WOTC has been pulling that stunt since at least 2000. Its nothing new and Games Workshops been doing long before.

There was a reason I skipped 3e and not just because the system just didnt grab me. And that was because WOTC was killing off FLGS deliberately and then started locking their stores out to anything but WOTC approved media, Magic and maybe D&D depending on the store. Which lead to the WOTC stores demises. Good riddance.

This 'helped' by GW doing the same before them, but mostly targeting minis heavy hobby shops then any FLGS. And they too had lockdowns on what you could play in your store, eg: only GW product. Nothing from other companies. That is assuming they didnt kill off local FLGS deliberately as well. The death of the GW Store will be a time to celebrate.

Omega

Quote from: VisionStorm on December 01, 2020, 04:52:16 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on December 01, 2020, 02:32:36 PM
Quote from: JeffB on December 01, 2020, 08:49:27 AM
AFAIC, 4E's DMG, is the best DMG written to actually teach a DM how to run the game. 5E, 3E, 2E, and even 1e (though my personal fave) all pale in comparison in this regard. And generally the best parts of the 5E DMG, are lifts (sometimes word for word) from the 4E DMG.

I just dont get this.  If it was the best to teach a DM how to run a game then why was it not more successful?

I never really got into 4e, but assuming that the DMG was that good, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it wasn't more successful because the game itself sucked. And you can make the greatest DMG in the world, but if the system you're making it for sucks (or simply doesn't get enough traction with its target audience) then the game itself is still gonna flop no matter how good the DMG supposedly is.

Over on BGG board gamers and storygamers loved 4e to to near fanatical levels for its "balance". That was the word most often used to describe why 4e was the pinnacle of RPG design.

Eric Diaz

#43
I remember the 4e DMG 2 having some cool ideas, but do not remember anything special about the DMG 1.

Could anyone give me some examples?

The 5e DMG is pretty meh. While the AD&D DMG talked about bell curves, the 5e prefers to ignore the math to make things easier. They no longer assume an average D&D player can learn the very basics of dice statistics.

EDIT: I played quite a lot of 4e and found the game very boring (very "character sheet focused"), but there is PLENTY of good stuff in there. The warlord, bloodied, some fluff, some monsters, the Dark Sun reboot, etc. Even the melee weapons are more interesting than 5e IIRC.
Chaos Factory Books  - Dark fantasy RPGs and more!

Methods & Madness - my  D&D 5e / Old School / Game design blog.

TJS

I find myself contemplating Pathfinder 1 for my next game (and I haven't play 3.5 for 15 years).

I just want some real choices.  I'm starting to feel that 5E is played out, already in the current game some of the players struggled not to repeat themselves and to find something new to play and this is only the 3rd set of characters they've played.

Plus Pathfinder has the slow progression XP track to keep the PCs from rushing into high levels and enough variant classes to avoid some of the disparities in classes - And I can just tell insist that primary casters need to take a level or two of expert at certain points in order to slow down their progression.

Playing 5E, however, has reminded me of how good some of those early 3.0 games were that I ran (and how much more tools I had to work with).  I mostly burnt out on it as a player in other people's games.