Quote from: Shasarak on November 23, 2020, 04:18:50 PM
If you think that 3e bloat was bad then you have never ever played any other edition of DnD.

BECMI I enjoyed it until the class bloat became too hard to follow. As in every supplement they put out, there were new character classes. That was way too much. Even with the Rules Cyclopedia making things a little easier

I actively played 1st edition AD&D. There were aspects of it I didn't like. But I have that experience.

Actually, I was a huge 2nd edition AD&D fan. And I really enjoyed kits. It's only when TSR jumped the shark with some of the development in 2nd edition that really pushed me away.

3.0 and 3.5 I liked a far enough of to invest heavily in the system. But in the end, there were way too many supplements.

4th edition I couldn't keep up with at all. But then again, I didn't really like 4th edition and subsequently sold all of my books for it on the cheap.

5th edition I like.

Dice pools like in VtM, I dislike, dice pools as in D6 system I love.

After starting with BECMI at age 8 and stopping at 3e when 4e was released, and playing a few other games outside that like the old marvel super heroes (percentile dice, colored column chart) or VtM or star wars D6, I finally gave up on all games (outside axis & allies) when the new age "glitch kiddies" started to show up, demanding you run the game like a computer would read it and allowing them to exploit and glitch or it's not RaW, and if you do allow such, then the game is broken so we should all do call of duty lan tournament instead.

After that, I had fiddled a little with converting WeG's D6 starwars to D&D a little, before discovering the D6 system book and the Space/Adventure/Fantasy books derived therefrom. I bought copies of Fantasy and Adventure (already have star wars, and Space is just that with slight mods and IP removed) and am so zen with it I sold all my other game stuff except things that had maps I wanted to re-use, like undermountain and Zhentil Keep boxed sets...even eventually giving away all my non-D6 dice to a trusted friend to distribute among the new an needy that might play 5e.

And I'll never look back, I'll never go back, for me D6 (which is dice pool technically) is the best hands down game system for ttrpg that has ever thusfar been invented. I know this like i know that water is wet or that dogs bark or that big chungus is a big fat pussy. I cannot, on this point, be bought, bullied, or reasoned with; it would be like a child telling me that the stork brings babies...I just smile and nod, for I know the truth, I know who impregnates the stork and those feathers in my zipper don't mean a thing my eyes are up here buddy.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 23, 2020, 08:17:21 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on November 23, 2020, 04:18:50 PM
If you think that 3e bloat was bad then you have never ever played any other edition of DnD.

BECMI I enjoyed it until the class bloat became too hard to follow. As in every supplement they put out, there were new character classes. That was way too much. Even with the Rules Cyclopedia making things a little easier

I actively played 1st edition AD&D. There were aspects of it I didn't like. But I have that experience.

Actually, I was a huge 2nd edition AD&D fan. And I really enjoyed kits. It's only when TSR jumped the shark with some of the development in 2nd edition that really pushed me away.

3.0 and 3.5 I liked a far enough of to invest heavily in the system. But in the end, there were way too many supplements.

4th edition I couldn't keep up with at all. But then again, I didn't really like 4th edition and subsequently sold all of my books for it on the cheap.

5th edition I like.

So then, as I observed, bloat in every edition.

Quote from: TJS on November 23, 2020, 08:03:16 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on November 23, 2020, 07:31:49 PM

Quote from: TJS on November 23, 2020, 06:16:09 PM3.X was the first time I heard the (I think poisonous) distinction between fluff and crunch put about.

Why do you call it poisonous, out of curiosity?  No strong feelings either way on my part, I'm just wondering.

Partly because it undermines ANY link between rules and specific settings.  This was what was initially cool about the premise of Prestige Classes in 3.0.  You had a way to model rules wise being a member of a particular knighthood or organisation in a setting.  But this was quickly thrown away.   3.0 at least kept the Greyhawk fluff for stuff, but it quickly became meaningless.  You now have to fight with players to recalibrate their expectations that anything in the rules is permissable and the rules often don't interact very well with settings at all.

In 2E D&D hadn't become so much of a genre in it's own right.  There was much more the expectation, seen in published settings, that the rules adapted to fit the setting.  The Shai'ir for example was a specific Al Qadim class - there was no expectation you could play one in Dark Sun.

In any case, the distinction between fluff and crunch and the expectation that you will reskin works best if rules are more general and are built with that in mind - and without bloat.  In 4E we saw the apogee of the mixed approach where they would release rules elements with highly specific fluff but bland and generic combat mechanics.  So this means you either see the fluff and get excited for the concept, but quickly realise that the crunch does nothing to really actualise that concept but is only tenuously connected at best, or you get excited for the mechanics and totally toss the fluff.

The distinction works when you have a fairly clear system built with a specific set of effects that you then add flavour to (like trappings in Savage Worlds) it's a disaster when nobody is really clear about the relationship between fluff and crunch and when even if you're ignoring flavour you still have to navigate your way around restictions built to supposedly reinforce flavour that nobody really cares about (such as specific entry requirements for prestige classes).

TL:DR when someone is writing down things on their character sheet like Paladin 4/Crystal Dragon Adept 4/Assassin of the Scarlet Order 2 and none of these things have any real meaning for the character and are not setting elements why are you using such a convoluted way to put a character together?  (Not to mention the fact that if all options are on the table, apart from say, specific setting ones - the complexity of the game grows very quickly)

Can you explain the distinction between fluff and crunch if you see my character Fighter 12 or Mage 11 as opposed to Paladin 4/Crystal Dragon Adept 4/Assassin of the Scarlet Order 2?

In other words, has character class ever connected fluff and crunch in any way other then Wizards can not wear armour?

Quote from: Shasarak on November 23, 2020, 09:23:27 PM

Quote from: TJS on November 23, 2020, 08:03:16 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on November 23, 2020, 07:31:49 PM

Quote from: TJS on November 23, 2020, 06:16:09 PM3.X was the first time I heard the (I think poisonous) distinction between fluff and crunch put about.

Why do you call it poisonous, out of curiosity?  No strong feelings either way on my part, I'm just wondering.

Partly because it undermines ANY link between rules and specific settings.  This was what was initially cool about the premise of Prestige Classes in 3.0.  You had a way to model rules wise being a member of a particular knighthood or organisation in a setting.  But this was quickly thrown away.   3.0 at least kept the Greyhawk fluff for stuff, but it quickly became meaningless.  You now have to fight with players to recalibrate their expectations that anything in the rules is permissable and the rules often don't interact very well with settings at all.

In 2E D&D hadn't become so much of a genre in it's own right.  There was much more the expectation, seen in published settings, that the rules adapted to fit the setting.  The Shai'ir for example was a specific Al Qadim class - there was no expectation you could play one in Dark Sun.

In any case, the distinction between fluff and crunch and the expectation that you will reskin works best if rules are more general and are built with that in mind - and without bloat.  In 4E we saw the apogee of the mixed approach where they would release rules elements with highly specific fluff but bland and generic combat mechanics.  So this means you either see the fluff and get excited for the concept, but quickly realise that the crunch does nothing to really actualise that concept but is only tenuously connected at best, or you get excited for the mechanics and totally toss the fluff.

The distinction works when you have a fairly clear system built with a specific set of effects that you then add flavour to (like trappings in Savage Worlds) it's a disaster when nobody is really clear about the relationship between fluff and crunch and when even if you're ignoring flavour you still have to navigate your way around restictions built to supposedly reinforce flavour that nobody really cares about (such as specific entry requirements for prestige classes).

TL:DR when someone is writing down things on their character sheet like Paladin 4/Crystal Dragon Adept 4/Assassin of the Scarlet Order 2 and none of these things have any real meaning for the character and are not setting elements why are you using such a convoluted way to put a character together?  (Not to mention the fact that if all options are on the table, apart from say, specific setting ones - the complexity of the game grows very quickly)

Can you explain the distinction between fluff and crunch if you see my character Fighter 12 or Mage 11 as opposed to Paladin 4/Crystal Dragon Adept 4/Assassin of the Scarlet Order 2?

In other words, has character class ever connected fluff and crunch in any way other then Wizards can not wear armour?

Well yes.  Obviously.  A Paladin has a code they have to follow.  A wizard, in addition to not wearing armour can cast magic spells, which presumably means people will recognise he is a wizard.  Even a Ranger in AD&D could likely be understood to be a ranger.  (The limit on how many could act together in 1E strongly implied they were able to recognise each other in some way - plus the alignment restrictions).

Although really that's beside the point.

Quote from: Shasarak on November 23, 2020, 09:16:28 PM

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 23, 2020, 08:17:21 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on November 23, 2020, 04:18:50 PM
If you think that 3e bloat was bad then you have never ever played any other edition of DnD.

BECMI I enjoyed it until the class bloat became too hard to follow. As in every supplement they put out, there were new character classes. That was way too much. Even with the Rules Cyclopedia making things a little easier

I actively played 1st edition AD&D. There were aspects of it I didn't like. But I have that experience.

Actually, I was a huge 2nd edition AD&D fan. And I really enjoyed kits. It's only when TSR jumped the shark with some of the development in 2nd edition that really pushed me away.

3.0 and 3.5 I liked a far enough of to invest heavily in the system. But in the end, there were way too many supplements.

4th edition I couldn't keep up with at all. But then again, I didn't really like 4th edition and subsequently sold all of my books for it on the cheap.

5th edition I like.

So then, as I observed, bloat in every edition.

There is such a a thing as scale.  A little carbon dioxide is necessary; too much is fatal.  And 3e was far more bloated than what came before (even the 2e splats).

Dude, we all know you are a Pathfinder (3e derivative) fanboy.  But some things are just not deniable.  Admitting the flaws of something you like doesn't invalidate your liking of it.

Quote from: Slipshot762 on November 23, 2020, 09:01:24 PM
Dice pools like in VtM, I dislike, dice pools as in D6 system I love.

After starting with BECMI at age 8 and stopping at 3e when 4e was released, and playing a few other games outside that like the old marvel super heroes (percentile dice, colored column chart) or VtM or star wars D6, I finally gave up on all games (outside axis & allies) when the new age "glitch kiddies" started to show up, demanding you run the game like a computer would read it and allowing them to exploit and glitch or it's not RaW, and if you do allow such, then the game is broken so we should all do call of duty lan tournament instead.

After that, I had fiddled a little with converting WeG's D6 starwars to D&D a little, before discovering the D6 system book and the Space/Adventure/Fantasy books derived therefrom. I bought copies of Fantasy and Adventure (already have star wars, and Space is just that with slight mods and IP removed) and am so zen with it I sold all my other game stuff except things that had maps I wanted to re-use, like undermountain and Zhentil Keep boxed sets...even eventually giving away all my non-D6 dice to a trusted friend to distribute among the new an needy that might play 5e.

And I'll never look back, I'll never go back, for me D6 (which is dice pool technically) is the best hands down game system for ttrpg that has ever thusfar been invented. I know this like i know that water is wet or that dogs bark or that big chungus is a big fat pussy. I cannot, on this point, be bought, bullied, or reasoned with; it would be like a child telling me that the stork brings babies...I just smile and nod, for I know the truth, I know who impregnates the stork and those feathers in my zipper don't mean a thing my eyes are up here buddy.

I haven't played a dice pool game since WEG's Star Wars was first released, but I like the cut of your jib.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 23, 2020, 09:39:36 PM
There is such a a thing as scale.  A little carbon dioxide is necessary; too much is fatal.  And 3e was far more bloated than what came before (even the 2e splats).

Dude, we all know you are a Pathfinder (3e derivative) fanboy.  But some things are just not deniable.  Admitting the flaws of something you like doesn't invalidate your liking of it.

I was a 2e fan boy years before being a 3e fan boy;

Here ya go a little CO2 for you....

AD&D 2nd Edition Core Products - Rulebooks

2100 Dungeon Master's Guide (original cover)
2101 Player's Handbook (original printing)
2121 Tome of Magic (hardcover)
2121S Tome of Magic (softcover)
2138 Book of Artifacts (hardcover)
2138S Book of Artifacts (softcover)
2159 Player's Handbook (black "revised" printing)
2160 Dungeon Master Guide (black "revised" printing)

AD&D 2nd Edition Core Products - Boxed Sets

1134 Introduction to AD&D (2nd Ed.) with audio CD (small box)
1135 Introduction to AD&D (2nd Ed.) with audio CD (large box)


AD&D 2nd Edition Core Products - Fast Play Game

11331 Wrath of the Minotaur
11373 Eye of the Wyvern
11450 Dungeons & Dragons® Game


AD&D 2nd Edition Core Products - Optional Core Rules

2156 DM's Option: High-Level Campaigns (hardcover)
2156S DM's Option: High-Level Campaigns (softcover)
2149 Player's Option: Combat & Tactics (hardcover)
2149S Player's Option: Combat & Tactics (softcover)
2154 Player's Option: Skills & Powers (hardcover)
2154S Player's Option: Skills & Powers (softcover)
2163 Player's Option: Spells & Magic (hardcover)
2163S Player's Option: Spells & Magic (softcover)
11383 Campaign Option: Council of Wyrms


AD&D 2nd Edition Core Products - DM Reference Guide

2112 DMRG1 Campaign Source Book & Catacomb Guide
2114 DMRG2 Castle Guide
2123 DMRG3 Arms and Equipment Guide
2128 DMRG4 Monster Mythology
2133 DMRG5 Creative Campaigning
2144 DMRG6 Complete Book of Villains
2151 The Complete Book of Necromancers
2164 Sages and Specialists
2170 Of Ships and the Sea

AD&D 2nd Edition Core Products - Player Reference Guide

2110 PHBR1 The Complete Fighter's Handbook
2111 PHBR2 The Complete Thief's Handbook
2113 PHBR3 The Complete Priest's Handbook
2115 PHBR4 The Complete Wizard's Handbook
2117 PHBR5 The Complete Psionics Handbook
2124 PHBR6 The Complete Book of Dwarves
2127 PHBR7 The Complete Bard's Handbook
2131 PHBR8 The Complete Book of Elves
2134 PHBR9 The Complete Book of Gnomes & Halflings
2135 PHBR10 The Complete Book of Humanoids
2136 PHBR11 The Complete Ranger's Handbook
2147 The Complete Paladin's Handbook
2148 The Complete Barbarian's Handbook
2150 The Complete Druid's Handbook
2155 The Complete Ninja's Handbook


AD&D 2nd Edition Core Products - Encyclopedia Magica

2141A Encyclopedia Magica, Volume I (faux leather cover)
2141B Encyclopedia Magica, Volume I (smooth cover)
2152A Encyclopedia Magica, Volume II (faux leather cover)
2152B Encyclopedia Magica, Volume II (smooth cover)
2157A Encyclopedia Magica, Volume III (faux leather cover)
2157B Encyclopedia Magica, Volume III (smooth cover)
2161A Encyclopedia Magica, Volume IV (faux leather cover)
2161B Encyclopedia Magica, Volume IV (smooth cover)


AD&D 2nd Edition Core Products - Wizards Spell Compendium

2165 Wizard's Spell Compendium, Volume One
2168 Wizard's Spell Compendium, Volume Two
2175 Wizard's Spell Compendium, Volume Three
2177 Wizard's Spell Compendium, Volume Four


AD&D 2nd Edition Core Products - Priests Spell Compendium

11359 Priest's Spell Compendium, Volume One
11421 Priest's Spell Compendium, Volume Two
11611 Priest's Spell Compendium, Volume Three


AD&D 2nd Edition Core Products - Historical Reference Sourcebook

9322 HR1 Vikings Campaign
9323 HR2 Charlemagne's Paladins
9376 HR3 Celts Campaign
9370 HR4 A Mighty Fortress Campaign
9425 HR5 The Glory of Rome Campaign
9408 HR6 Age of Heroes
9469 HR7 The Crusades
AD&D 2nd Edition Core Products - Player Packs

1112 Fighter's Player Pack
1113 Wizard's Player Pack
1114 Priest's Player Pack
1115 Thief's Player Pack


AD&D 2nd Edition Core Products - Screens

9263 Dungeon Master's Screen (w/module "Terrible Trouble at Tragidor")
9504 Dungeon Master Screen & Master Index
9457 Fighter's Screen
9462 Priest's Screen
9463 Thief's Screen
9468 Wizard's Screen


AD&D 2nd Edition Core Products - Mass Combat Rules

9266 Battlesystem Miniatures Rules
9335 Battlesystem: Skirmishes


AD&D 2nd Edition Core Products - Sites Series

9464 City Sites
9479 Castle Sites
9482 Country Sites


AD&D 2nd Edition Core Products - Card Deck Accessories

9356 CR1 Wizard Spell Cards
9362 CR2 Priest Spell Cards
1090 Cardmaster Adventure Design Deck
9407 Deck of Encounters, set 1
9443 Deck of Encounters, set 2
9423 Deck of Magical Items
9458 Deck of Psionic Powers


AD&D 2nd Edition Core Products - Computer Accessories

2167 AD&D CD-ROM: Core Rules, Version 1.0
2176 AD&D CD-ROM: Core Rules, Version 2.0
11543 AD&D CD-ROM: Core Rules 2.0 Expansion

AD&D 2nd Edition Core Products - Art Books

8441 The Worlds of TSR (Hardcover)
8441P The Worlds of TSR (Softcover)
8443 The Art of the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Game
8444 The Art of Dragon Magazine


AD&D 2nd Edition Core Products - Miscellaneous

9353 GR1 Strongholds Fold-Ups
9365 GR2 Dungeons of Mystery Fold-Ups
9377 GR3 Treasure Maps
1067 1991 Factory Trading Card Set
1992 Factory Trading Card Set
1993 Factory Trading Card Set
9380 REF6 Rogues Gallery
9426 Treasure Chest Accessory
9506 Chronomancer
9507 Shaman
9515 Den of Thieves
9518 Treasure Tales
9532 World Builder's Guidebook
9556 Dungeon Builder's Guidebook
9549 College of Wizardry
11326 The Vortex of Madness
11361 Warriors of Heaven
11431 Guide to Hell
8118 Snarfquest Anthology


AD&D 2nd Edition Core Products - Monster Books

2108 Legends & Lore
2140A Monstrous Manual (white cover)
2140B Monstrous Manual (black cover)
2145 Monstrous Compendium, 1994 Annual, Volume 1
2158 Monstrous Compendium, 1995 Annual, Volume 2
2166 Monstrous Compendium, 1996 Annual, Volume 3
2173 Monstrous Compendium, 1997 Annual, Volume 4

AD&D 2nd Edition Core Products - Monstrous Compendiums

2102 MC1 Volume I (w/binder #1)
2103 MC2 Volume II
2104 MC3 Forgotten Realms Appendix I
2105 MC4 Dragonlance Appendix (w/binder #2)
2107 MC5 Greyhawk Appendix
2116 MC6 Kara-Tur Appendix
2109 MC7 Spelljammer Appendix I
2118 MC8 Outer Planes Appendix
2119 MC9 Spelljammer Appendix II
2122 MC10 Ravenloft Appendix I
2125 MC11 Forgotten Realms Appendix II
2405 MC12 Dark Sun Appendix I - Terrors of the Desert
2129 MC13 Al-Qadim Appendix
2132 MC14 Fiend Folio Appendix
2139 Ravenloft Appendix II: Children of the Night
2153 Ravenloft Appendix III
2162 Ravenloft Appendices I and II
2433 Dark Sun Appendix II - Terrors Beyond Tyr
2501 Mystara Appendix
2602 Planescape I
2613 Planescape II
2635 Planescape III


AD&D 2nd Edition Core Products - Monstrous Arcana

9521 I, Tyrant
9522 Eye of Pain
9530 Eye of Doom
9536 Eye to Eye
9539 The Sea Devils
9542 Evil Tide
9550 Night of the Shark
9560 Sea of Blood
9569 The Illithiad
9570 A Darkness Gathering
9571 Masters of Eternal Night
9572 Dawn of the Overmind


AD&D 2nd Edition Adventures - Boxed Sets

1056 Castles
1089 Dragon Mountain
1107 Council of Wyrms
1125 Night Below
1143 Tale of the Comet
1145 The Rod of Seven Parts
1162 Return to the Tomb of Horrors

AD&D 2nd Edition Adventures - Character Challenge Series

9330 HHQ1 Fighter's Challenge
9359 HHQ2 Wizard's Challenge
9420 HHQ3 Thief's Challenge
9429 HHQ4 Cleric's Challenge
9427 Fighter's Challenge II
9454 Wizard's Challenge II
9478 Thief's Challenge II: Beacon Pointe
9483 Cleric's Challenge II


AD&D 2nd Edition Adventures - Diablo 2

11548 Diablo II Adventure Game
11612 Diablo II: The Awakening


AD&D 2nd Edition Adventures - Jakandor Series

9511 Jakandor, Island of War
9512 Jakandor, Isle of Destiny
9472 Jakandor, Land of Legend


AD&D 2nd Edition Adventures - Dungeon® Anthologies

11376 Road to Danger
11444 Dungeons of Despair


AD&D 2nd Edition Adventures - Miscellaneous

9422 GA1 The Murky Deep
9424 GA2 Swamplight
9428 GA3 Tales of Enchantment
9448 Temple, Tower & Tomb
9471 The Dancing Hut of Baba Yaga
9503 Labyrinth of Madness
9508 The Silver Key
9533 The Gates of Firestorm Peak
9534 A Hero's Tale
9568 Moonlight Madness
9573 The Lost Shrine of Bundushatur
9586 A Paladin in Hell
11325 The Shattered Circle
11347 Axe of the Dwarvish Lords
11377 Destiny of Kings (revised)
11392 Reverse Dungeon
11442 Bastion of Faith
11445 RPGA®: TSR Jam 1999
11614 The Apocalypse Stone
11662 Die Vecna Die!


AD&D 2nd Edition: Al-Qadim - Boxed Sets

1077 Land of Fate (Al-Qadim Campaign Setting)
1091 City of Delights
9366 ALQ1 Golden Voyages
9431 ALQ2 Assassin Mountain
9432 ALQ3 A Dozen and One Adventures
9433 ALQ4 Secrets of the Lamp
9440 Ruined Kingdoms
9449 Corsairs of the Great Sea
9459 Caravans
9467 Cities of Bone


AD&D 2nd Edition: Al-Qadim - Accessories & Adventures

2146 CGR3 The Complete Sha'ir's Handbook
2126 Arabian Adventures
9584 Reunion (adventure module)

AD&D 2nd Edition: Birthright - Boxed Sets

3100 Birthright Campaign Setting
3103 Cities of the Sun
3121 The Rjurik Highlands
3129 Havens of the Great Bay
3134 Naval Battle Rules: the Seas of Cerilia


AD&D 2nd Edition: Birthright - Domain Sourcebooks

3104 Player's Secrets of Roesone
3105 Player's Secrets of Endier
3106 Player's Secrets of Medoere
3107 Player's Secrets of Tournen
3108 Player's Secrets of Ilien
3109 Player's Secrets of Talinie
3111 Player's Secrets of Ariya
3119 Player's Secrets of Binsada
3120 Player's Secrets of Baruk-Azhik
3122 Player's Secrets of Halskapa
3123 Player's Secrets of Khourane
3124 Player's Secrets of Tuarhievel
3127 Player's Secrets of Stjordvik


AD&D 2nd Edition: Birthright - Modules & Accessories

3101 Blood Enemies: Abominations of Cerilia
3102 Sword and Crown
3110 Warlock of the Stonecrowns
3117 Book of Magecraft
3118 The Sword of Roele
3125 Legend of the Hero-Kings
3126 The Book of Priestcraft
3142 King of the Giantdowns
3147 Tribes of the Heartless Waste

AD&D 2nd Edition: Dark Sun - Boxed Sets

2400 Dark Sun Campaign Setting (original)
2418 The Ivory Triangle
2432 City by the Silt Sea
2438 Dark Sun Campaign Setting (revised)


AD&D 2nd Edition: Dark Sun - Accessories

2419 CGR2 The Complete Gladiator's Handbook
2404 DSR1 Slave Tribes
2407 DSR2 Dune Trader
2411 DSR3 The Veiled Alliance
2413 DSR4 Valley of Dust and Fire
2420 DSS1 City-State of Tyr
2422 DSS2 Earth, Air, Fire, and Water
2423 DSS3 Elves of Athas
2408 Dragon Kings (hardback)
2431 The Will and the Way
2437 Thri-Kreen of Athas
2439 Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs
2441 Beyond the Prism Pentad
2444 Mind Lords of the Last Sea
2445 Defilers and Preservers: The Wizards of Athas
2446 Psionic Artifacts of Athas


AD&D 2nd Edition: Dark Sun - FlipBook Modules - Miscellaneous

2430 Forest Maker


AD&D 2nd Edition: Dark Sun - FlipBook Modules - Freedom Series

2401 DS1 Freedom
2406 DSQ1 Road to Urik
2410 DSQ2 Arcane Shadows
2412 DSQ3 Asticlian Gambit
2416 DSE1 Dragon's Crown


AD&D 2nd Edition: Dark Sun - FlipBook Modules - Black Flame Series

2417 DSM1 Black Flames
2421 DSM2 Merchant House of Amketch
2424 DSM3 Marauders of Nibenay
2428 Black Spine

AD&D 2nd Edition: DragonLance - Boxed Sets

1050 Time of the Dragon
1074 Tales of the Lance
1086 Dwarven Kingdoms of Krynn


AD&D 2nd Edition: DragonLance - Accessories

2143 PG1 Player's Guide to the Dragonlance Campaign
1039 Dragonlance board game
1058 Mage Stones board game
2021 Dragonlance Adventures (hardcover)
8372 The History of Dragonlance
8446 Leaves From the Inn of the Last Home
21516 More Leaves From the Inn of the Last Home
8447A The Art of the Dragonlance Saga (1st printing)
8447B The Art of the Dragonlance Saga (2nd printing)
8448 Atlas of the Dragonlance World
8892 1992 Dragonlance Calendar
8895 1995 Dragonlance Calendar
8896 1996 Dragonlance Calendar
8897 1997 Dragonlance Calendar
8899 1999 Dragonlance Calendar


AD&D 2nd Edition: DragonLance - Adventures - DL Series

9130 DL1 Dragons of Despair
9132 DL2 Dragons of Flame
9131 DL3 Dragons of Hope
9139 DL4 Dragons of Desolation
9135 DL5 Dragons of Mystery
9140 DL6 Dragons of Ice
9136 DL7 Dragons of Light
9141 DL8 Dragons of War
9137 DL9 Dragons of Deceit
9144 DL11 Dragons of Glory
9133 DL12 Dragons of Faith
9176 DL13 Dragons of Truth
9180 DL14 Dragons of Triumph
9231 DL15 Mists of Krynn
9237 DL16 World of Krynn
11350 Dragonlance Classic 15th Anniversary Edition


AD&D 2nd Edition: DragonLance - Adventures - DLA Series

9275 DLA1 Dragon Dawn
9285 DLA2 Dragon Knight
9294 DLA3 Dragon's Rest

AD&D 2nd Edition: DragonLance - Adventures - DLC Series

9291 DLC1 Dragonlance Classics, Volume I
9394 DLC2 Dragonlance Classics, Volume II
9453 DLC3 Dragonlance Classics, Volume III


AD&D 2nd Edition: DragonLance - Adventures - DLE Series

9243 DLE1 In Search of Dragons
9244 DLE2 Dragon Magic
9245 DLE3 Dragon Keep

continued:

AD&D 2nd Edition: DragonLance - Adventures - DLQ Series

9381 DLQ1 Knight's Sword
9382 DLQ2 Flint's Axe


AD&D 2nd Edition: DragonLance - Adventures - DLR Series

9278 DLR1 Otherlands
9344 DLR2 Taladas: The Minotaurs
9383 DLR3 Unsung Heroes


AD&D 2nd Edition: DragonLance - Adventures - DLS Series

9314 DLS1 New Beginnings
9319 DLS2 Treelords
9327 DLS3 Oak Lords
9334 DLS4 Wild Elves


AD&D 2nd Edition: DragonLance - Adventures - DLT Series

9395 DLT1 New Tales: The Land Reborn
9396 DLT2 Dragonlance Book of Lairs

AD&D 2nd Edition: DragonLance The Fifth Age - Miscellaneous

1148 Fifth Age Campaign Set
1149 The Last Tower: The Legacy of Raistlin
1150 Heroes of Steel
9517 Heroes of Defiance
9543 Heroes of Sorcery
9546 Heroes of Hope
9551 Wings of Fury
9554 Citadel of Light
9564 The Bestiary
9565 Fate Deck
9565A Fate Deck (with "The Haunted Amulet" mini-adventure)
9565B Fate Deck (with "The Dwarven Crown" mini-adventure)
9565C Fate Deck (with "Death on the Deep" mini-adventure)
9565D Fate Deck (with "The Duntollik Run" mini-adventure)
9566 A Saga Companion
9588 Palanthas


AD&D 2nd Edition: DragonLance The Fifth Age - Chaos War Adventures

9587 Seeds of Chaos
11372 Chaos Spawn


AD&D 2nd Edition: DragonLance The Fifth Age - Battle Lines Series

11329 The Sylvan Veil
11396 Rise of the Titans

AD&D 2nd Edition: Forgotten Realms - Boxed Sets

1031 Forgotten Realms Campaign, 1st Edition
1040 City System
1044 The Great Khan Game
1060 Ruins of Undermountain I
1104 Ruins of Undermountain II
1083 Menzoberranzan
1084 The Ruins of Myth Drannor
1085 Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Revised Edition
1109 City of Splendors
1120 Ruins of Zhentil Keep
1121 Spellbound: Thay, Rasheman, & Aglarond
1142 The North
1159 Lands of Intrigue
9561 Empires of the Shining Sea


AD&D 2nd Edition: Forgotten Realms - Modules - FA Series

9301 FA1 Halls of the High King
9341 FA2 Nightmare Keep


AD&D 2nd Edition: Forgotten Realms - Modules - FR Series

9213 FR1 Waterdeep & The North
9217 FR2 Moonshae
9224 FR3 Empires of the Sands
9229 FR4 The Magister
9233 FR5 The Savage Frontier
9235 FR6 Dreams of the Red Wizards
9252 FR7 Hall of Heroes
9262 FR8 Cities of Mystery boxed set
9267 FR9 The Bloodstone Lands
9274 FR10 Old Empires
9300 FR11 Dwarves Deep
9324 FR12 The Horde Campaign
9320 FR13 Anauroch
9351 FR14 The Great Glacier
9373 FR15 Gold & Glory
9388 FR16 The Shining South


AD&D 2nd Edition: Forgotten Realms - Modules - Maztica Series

1066 Maztica (boxed set)
9333 FMA1 Fires of Zatal
9340 FMA2 Endless Armies
9349 FMQ1 City of Gold

AD&D 2nd Edition: Forgotten Realms - Modules - Empires Series

1055 The Horde (boxed set)
9281 FRA1 Storm Riders
9290 FRA2 Black Courser
9304 FRA3 Blood Charge


AD&D 2nd Edition: Forgotten Realms - Modules - FRC Series

9238 FRC1 Ruins of Adventure
9239 FRC2 Curse of the Azure Bonds


AD&D 2nd Edition: Forgotten Realms - Modules - Avatar Series

9247 FRE1 Shadowdale
9248 FRE2 Tantras
9249 FRE3 Waterdeep


AD&D 2nd Edition: Forgotten Realms - Modules - FRQ Series

9354 FRQ1 Haunted Halls of Eveningstar
9369 FRQ2 Hordes of Dragonspear
9391 FRQ3 Doom of Daggerdale


AD&D 2nd Edition: Forgotten Realms - Modules - Living City Series

8908 LC1 Gateway to Raven's Bluff
9282 LC2 Inside Raven's Bluff, The Living City
9316 LC3 Nightwatch in the Living City
9315 LC4 Port of Raven's Bluff
9575 The City of Ravens Bluff


AD&D 2nd Edition: Forgotten Realms - Oriental Adventures / Kara-tur Series

1032 Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms (boxed set)
9307 FROA1 Ninja Wars
9164 OA1 Swords of the Daimyo
9186 OA2 Night of the Seven Swords
9195 OA3 Ochimo: The Spirit Warrior
9203 OA4 Blood of the Yakuza
9242 OA5 Mad Monkey vs. the Dragon Claw
9257 OA6 Ronin Challenge
9258 OA7 Test of the Samurai

AD&D 2nd Edition: Forgotten Realms - Modules - Undermountain Dungeon Crawl

9519 The Lost Level
9528 Maddgoth's Castle
9538 Stardock
9562 Hellgate Keep


AD&D 2nd Edition: Forgotten Realms - Modules - Elminster's Ecologies

1111 Elminster's Ecologies (boxed set)
9489 Elminster's Ecologies I: Battle of Bones
9490 Elminster's Ecologies II: High Moor


AD&D 2nd Edition: Forgotten Realms - Modules - Arcane Age Series

1147 Netheril: Empire of Magic (boxed set)
1165 Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves
9540 How the Mighty Are Fallen
9558 The Fall of Myth Drannor


AD&D 2nd Edition: Forgotten Realms - Modules - Underwater Series

11393 Sea of Fallen Stars
11405 The Wyrmskull Throne


AD&D 2nd Edition: Forgotten Realms - Modules - Marco Volo Series

9444 Departure
9450 Journey
9455 Arrival


AD&D 2nd Edition: Forgotten Realms - Modules - Sword of the Dales Series

9484 The Sword of the Dales
9485 The Secret of Spiderhaunt
9488 The Return of Randal Morn


AD&D 2nd Edition: Forgotten Realms - Modules - Volo's Guide Series

9379 Volo's Guide to Waterdeep
9393 Volo's Guide to the North
9460 Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast
9486 Volo's Guide to Cormyr
9524 Volo's Guide to the Dalelands
9535 Volo's Guide to All Things Magical
11626 Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II

AD&D 2nd Edition: Forgotten Realms - Modules - Sourcebooks

2106 Forgotten Realms Adventures
2142 PG2 Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms
9297 FOR1 Draconomicon
9326 FOR2 Drow of the Underdark
9346 FOR3 Pirates of the Fallen Stars
9390 FOR4 Code of the Harpers
9430 FOR5 Elves of Evermeet
9475 FOR6 The Seven Sisters
9487 FOR7 Giantcraft
9491 FOR8 Pages from the Mages
9492 FOR9 Wizards and Rogues of the Realms
9509 FOR10 Warriors and Priests of the Realms
9547 FOR11 Cult of the Dragon
11316 FOR12 Demihumans of the Realms
11430 FOR13 Secrets of the Magister
9516 Faiths & Avatars
9525 Heroes' Lorebook
9552 Villains' Lorebook
9563 Powers & Pantheons
9585 Demihuman Deities
9545 Prayers From the Faithful
11509 Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark


AD&D 2nd Edition: Forgotten Realms - Modules - Trail Maps

9401 TM4 Waterdeep Trailmap
9402 TM5 Kara-Tur Trailmap


AD&D 2nd Edition: Forgotten Realms - Modules - Miscellaneous

9389 FRM1 The Jungles of Chult
9392 FRS1 The Dalelands
8442 The Forgotten Realms Atlas
9358 Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue
9410 Cormyr
9465 Forgotten Realms Book of Lairs
9474 The Moonsea
9520 The Vilhon Reach
9531 Four From Cormyr
9544 Castle Spulzeer
9574 For Duty & Deity
9589 Calimport
11337 The Accursed Tower
11348 Skullport
11451 Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas CD-ROM
11622 Dungeon of Death
11627 Cloak & Dagger
11634 Into the Dragon's Lair

AD&D 2nd Edition: Greyhawk - Boxed Sets

1015 World of Greyhawk (boxed set version)
1043 The City of Greyhawk
1064 From the Ashes
1068 Greyhawk Wars


AD&D 2nd Edition: Greyhawk - Modules - WG Series

9065 WG4 Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun
9112 WG5 Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure
9153 WG6 Isle of the Ape
9222 WG7 Castle Greyhawk
9253 WG8 Fate of Istus
9251 WG9 Gargoyle
9265 WG10 Child's Play
9269 WG11 Puppets
9270 WG12 Vale of the Mage


AD&D 2nd Edition: Greyhawk - Modules - WGA Series

9279 WGA1 Falcon's Revenge
9289 WGA2 Falconmaster
9302 WGA3 Flames of the Falcon
9309 WGA4 Vecna Lives!


AD&D 2nd Edition: Greyhawk - Modules - WGR Series

9292 WGR1 Greyhawk Ruins
9360 WGR2 Treasures of Greyhawk
9386 WGR3 Rary the Traitor
9398 WGR4 The Marklands
9399 WGR5 Iuz the Evil
9405 WGR6 The City of Skulls


AD&D 2nd Edition: Greyhawk - Modules - WGS Series

9317 WGS1 Five Shall be One
9337 WGS2 Howl From the North


AD&D 2nd Edition: Greyhawk - Modules - Lost Tombs Series

9579 The Star Cairns
9580 Crypt of Lyzandred the Mad
9581 The Doomgrinder

AD&D 2nd Edition: Greyhawk - Modules - Silver Anniversary Series

11327 Return to the Keep on the Borderlands
11413 Against the Giants: The Liberation of Geoff
11434 Return to White Plume Mountain


AD&D 2nd Edition: Greyhawk - Modules - Miscellaneous

9406 WGM1 Border Watch
9385 WGQ1 Patriots of Ulek
2023 Greyhawk Adventures (hardcover)
9025 World of Greyhawk Folio
9576 Return of the Eight
9577 The Adventure Begins
9578 Greyhawk Player's Guide
11374 The Scarlet Brotherhood
11621 Slavers


AD&D 2nd Edition: Lankhmar - Boxed Sets

1144 Lankhmar Rules & Campaign Setting


AD&D 2nd Edition: Lankhmar - Accessories

9162 Lankhmar: City of Adventure (1st Ed.)
2137 Lankhmar: City of Adventure (2nd Ed.)
9461 Rogues in Lankhmar
9470 Cutthroats of Lankhmar


AD&D 2nd Edition: Lankhmar - Modules

9150 CA1 Swords of the Undercity
9170 CA2 Swords of Deceit
9276 LNA1 Thieves of Lankhmar
9305 LNA2 Nehwon
9318 LNA3 Prince of Lankhmar
9371 LNQ1 Slayers of Lankhmar
9295 LNR1 Wonders of Lankhmar
9329 LNR2 Tales of Lankhmar
9481 Avengers in Lankhmar


AD&D 2nd Edition: Mystara - Boxed Sets

1105 First Quest - Intro to AD&D
2500 Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure
2511 Glantri: Kingdom of Magic
2504 Red Steel Campaign Expansion (boxed set)
9500 Red Steel - Savage Baronies Accessory


AD&D 2nd Edition: Mystara - Modules

2502 Hail the Heroes
2509 Night of the Vampire
2513 Mark of Amber


AD&D 2nd Edition: Mystara - Accessories

2506 Poor Wizard's Almanac III
2517 Joshuan's Almanac
2510 Player's Survival Kit
2512 Dungeon Master's Survival Kit

AD&D 2nd Edition: Planescape - Boxed Sets

2600 Planescape Campaign Setting
2603 Planes of Chaos
2607 Planes of Law
2615 Planes of Conflict
2610 Player's Primer to the Outlands
2621 Hellbound: The Blood War


AD&D 2nd Edition: Planescape - Accessories

2609 In The Cage: A Guide to Sigil
2611 The Factol's Manifesto
2620 The Planewalker's Handbook
2623 On Hallowed Ground
2624 Uncaged: Faces of Sigil
2625 A Guide to the Astral Plane
2630 Faces of Evil: the Fiends
2633 A Guide to the Ethereal Plane
2634 The Inner Planes


AD&D 2nd Edition: Planescape - Modules

2601 The Eternal Boundary
2604 The Well of Worlds
2605 In the Abyss
2606 The Deva Spark
2608 Fires of Dis
2614 Harbinger House
2619 Something Wild
2626 Doors to the Unknown
2628 The Great Modron March
2629 Faction War
2631 Dead Gods
2632 Tales From the Infinite Staircase


AD&D 2nd Edition: Ravenloft - Boxed Sets

1053 Ravenloft Campaign Setting, 1st Ed. ("Realm of Terror")
1079 Forbidden Lore
1088 Castles Forlorn
1103 Masque of the Red Death Campaign Setting
1108 Ravenloft Campaign Setting, 2nd Ed.
1124 The Nightmare Lands
1141 Bleak House


AD&D 2nd Edition: Ravenloft - Van Richten's Guides

9345 RR3 Van Richten's Guide to Vampires
9355 RR5 Van Richten's Guide to Ghosts
9412 RR6 Van Richten's Guide to the Lich (RS1)
9416 RR7 Van Richten's Guide to Werebeasts
9417 Van Richten's Guide to the Created
9451 Van Richten's Guide to the Ancient Dead
9477 Van Richten's Guide to Fiends
9496 Van Richten's Guide to the Vistani
11447 Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium, Volume One
11507 Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium, Volume Two
11613 Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium, Volume Three


AD&D 2nd Edition: Ravenloft - Children of the Night

9513 Vampires
9555 Ghosts
9583 Werebeasts
11360 The Created


AD&D 2nd Edition: Ravenloft - RA Series

9298 RA1 Feast of Goblyns
9321 RA2 Ship of Horrors
9338 RA3 Touch of Death


AD&D 2nd Edition: Ravenloft - RM Series

9413 RM1 Roots of Evil
9414 RM2 The Created
9415 RM3 Web of Illusion
9418 RM4 House of Strahd
9419 RM5 Dark of the Moon


AD&D 2nd Edition: Ravenloft - RQ Series

9352 RQ1 Night of the Walking Dead
9364 RQ2 Thoughts of Darkness
9375 RQ3 From the Shadows
AD&D 2nd Edition: Ravenloft - Grim Harvest Trilogy

9523 Death Unchained
9526 Death Ascendant
1146 Requiem: The Grim Harvest


AD&D 2nd Edition: Ravenloft - Miscellaneous

9439 RE1 Adam's Wrath
9331 RR1 Darklords
9336 RR2 Book of Crypts
9348 RR4 Islands of Terror
1163 The Shadow Rift
2174 Domains of Dread
9452 The Awakening
9456 Hour of the Knife
9466 Howls in the Night
9476 When Black Roses Bloom
9493 Circle of Darkness
9494 A Light in the Belfry
9495 Chilling Tales
9497 The Evil Eye
9498 The Gothic Earth Gazetteer
9499 Neither Man Nor Beast
9510 Forged of Darkness
9529 A Guide to Transylvania
9537 The Forgotten Terror
9541 Servants of Darkness
9559 Champions of the Mists
9582 Vecna Reborn
11382 Carnival


AD&D 2nd Edition: Spelljammer - Boxed Sets

1049 AD&D Adventures In Space
1065 Legend of the Spelljammer
1072 War Captain's Companion
1087 The Astromundi Cluster


AD&D 2nd Edition: Spelljammer - Accessories

2130 CGR1 The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook
9313 SJR3 DM's Reference Screen


AD&D 2nd Edition: Spelljammer - Modules

9273 SJA1 Wildspace
9286 SJA2 Skull & Crossbows
9299 SJA3 Crystal Spheres
9325 SJA4 Under the Dark Fist
9347 SJQ1 The Heart of the Enemy
9280 SJR1 Lost Ships
9312 SJR2 Realmspace
9328 SJR4 Practical Planetology
9361 SJR5 Rock of Bral
9374 SJR6 Greyspace
9409 SJR7 Krynnspace
9411 SJR8 Space Lairs

What the fuck was that?!

That's not bloat! That's just a Titan-sized lean mean badass gaming machine!!!! 2e forever!

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 23, 2020, 10:31:38 PM
What the fuck was that?!

In the voice of the thug from TANGLED, first looking at Rapunzel's hair. "Thaaaat's a lawwwwwtta books."

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 23, 2020, 10:31:38 PM
What the fuck was that?!

Someone who can't define bloat.  And somehow thinks that adventure modules are examples of it.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 23, 2020, 10:51:13 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 23, 2020, 10:31:38 PM
What the fuck was that?!

Someone who can't define bloat.  And somehow thinks that adventure modules are examples of it.

Those aren't just adventure modules though, I see a bunch of "Complete... [insert class/race/etc]" and the likes.

Honestly, I never understood the need for so much stuff myself. I don't even grok the separation of a game in GM book + Players book. Runequest 2e was just a single, thin book, and with a supplement like Cults of Prax was enough for infinite games. If a game needs more than a single book for it's "basic experience", that's a hell of a red flag for me.

(Nothing to do with good or bad design though, that's just personal preference)

2E had a lot of bloat.  There's no denying it.

But it's also the case that lot of it was not designed to be used together. 

There was no expectation that the Gladiator handbook options for Dark Sun were relevant to a Forgotten Realms game.

This was no doubt bad from a business perspective, but it does mean the bloat wasn't as bad as it may appear.