Quote from: shasarak;1134929he is good, but he is no elmore.

That's it! Let's nuke the kiwi!!

Quote from: Spinachcat;1134950That's it! Let's nuke the kiwi!!

We both know that most Americans could not find NZ on a map.

Lets give it a try with this IKEA world map:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4582[/ATTACH]

The bad news is we have enough nukes to be within 2000 miles and you are still probably nuked

Quote from: Shasarak;1134990Lets give it a try with this IKEA world map:

That's awesome

Quote from: Shasarak;1134990We both know that most Americans could not find NZ on a map.

Lets give it a try with this IKEA world map:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4582[/ATTACH]

Ha! Nicely done, clearly NZ is a stealth country

Quote from: Shasarak;1134990We both know that most Americans could not find NZ on a map.

Dude, we both know that most Americans could not find the USA on a map!!

But your map was fun. Our old gaming group had a Kiwi and he was indignant about American's lack of knowledge so we always joked that NZ was located in the center of Australia. That's why its new. Some Aussie named Zealand founded it. Kinda like New Jersey. And Maori are tall pygmies.

Quote from: Shasarak;1134929He is good, but he is no Elmore.

You're right.

He's better than Larry Elmore. Who's definitely one of the top RPG artists ever, putting Gerald Brom on top of that field.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1134947Perhaps I shouldn't have said yapping, I should not have dismissed your preferences in such a way and perhaps in such a way, I made the conversation more aggressive.

I probably biased on this, but I'm pretty sure I was respectful in the post where Pat accused me of "straw manning" him (which I still reject the notion I ever did), and had even agreed with at least some portion of what he said till that point. So I really don't think that the problem lies with you. He (she, it? "It's Pat!") is just being obtuse and lashing out over simple disagreements, while trying to have his cake and eat it too. And any "dismissal" that could be argued exists in your post pretty much goes both ways, cuz if you were being "dismissive of preferences" then Pat was definitely being dismissive of preferences as well.

Quote from: Shasarak;1134990We both know that most Americans could not find NZ on a map.

Lets give it a try with this IKEA world map:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4582[/ATTACH]

I'm pretty sure it's that thing on top of Australia.

Wait a minute... where's Australia? Is it that gigantic blob below Europe? :confused:

Quote from: Haffrung;1134777But the truth is if you're really good at your job, you'll be recognized and promoted even if you don't schmooze with colleagues.

This claim of yours is false. Just patently, absurdly even, false. I don't know why you think it's true. I suspect you're just using your personal experience and applying it to all freelance creative work. But, it's just total bullshit. It's always been bullshit throughout the ages, and remains bullshit today. Shmoozing with people absolutely gets you more freelance jobs. We call it networking these days, but whatever you want to call it, drinking with people after hours will in fact get you more freelance jobs no matter your talent level. There was a time there where smoking cigars (when they were trendy) also got you more freelance jobs.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1134996And Maori are tall pygmies.

Or short Giants.  The science is still out.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1134947Perhaps I shouldn't have said yapping, I should not have dismissed your preferences in such a way and perhaps in such a way, I made the conversation more aggressive.

But I stand for everything else I said, I still see your beliefs as oxymoronic and you are trying to frame your preferences as objective, and while demanding merit to the views that you self describe as subjective, you then put no merit to the preferences of others that would also be subjective, and under your own logic would not need an 'In my opinion' tag.

I respect being able to escalate and deescalate.

What's really strange is I started posting because I don't get the popularity of coffee table RPG books, so I wanted to explore what other people thought, in order to clarify my own thinking on the subject. Which is why I explained my reasoning, including how people react to art. That's all it was. So your entire reaction seems nonsensical to me.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1135002I probably biased on this, but I'm pretty sure I was respectful in the post where Pat accused me of "straw manning" him (which I still reject the notion I ever did), and had even agreed with at least some portion of what he said till that point. So I really don't think that the problem lies with you. He (she, it? "It's Pat!") is just being obtuse and lashing out over simple disagreements, while trying to have his cake and eat it too. And any "dismissal" that could be argued exists in your post pretty much goes both ways, cuz if you were being "dismissive of preferences" then Pat was definitely being dismissive of preferences as well.

Go back and look at the early posts. It started with your strawman, and I pointed it out. You denied it. I further clarified my position, and so on. At this point, we were both presenting our cases strongly. We definitely did not agree, but it was civil. That's when Banshee intervened in an inflammatory manner, and I called the wailing spirit an asshole in response. Note that wasn't aimed at you. But it seemed to be the tipping point, because your next post was definitely not civil, and you're still doing it, by making inferences about me in a post to someone else, instead of addressing me directly. You won't find any examples of me lashing out, but you will find cases of me responding in kind.

The strawman is still a sticking point, because I'm not going to defend positions I don't hold. That means we can't really continue the conversation, but we can move on.

Quote from: Pat;1135010Which is why I explained my reasoning, including how people react to art. That's all it was.

Its because of general grognardism on this forum. While I value allot of old value stuff, I sometimes feel like everything hated is lumped onto 2e (Or AD&D even) or above, as reason how the hobby failed, or died as an industry, or whatever, even if pravalent in 1e or whatever else or not even a good explanation for todays current problems (Like how people attributed dark elves to D&D 3e even though they existed as early as basic).

And again, I made claims based on 'Its inspirational for me', you countered with 'It doesn't have much to do with the text or the game', and then extra followed with 'Its worse because it defines the world'. Its either negatively impactful or unimpactful but it can't be both.

It is also countering my preference with a statement of desire of how games SHOULD be. In essense telling that I should not be inspired. And if that was not the intent are you saying that my interest in an idea that wen't from 0%->50% because of intersting artwork I saw is illegitimate inspiration?

Like Modrons from Planescape got me much more interested in them with updated art as opposed to text, giving a much clearer impression of weird organisms of not flesh or machine as opposed to just abstract ideas. That to me was a net benefit. Unless your saying that net benefit is illegitimate at best your argument could be 'I prefer art not be defined for me as I prefer it to be up to my interpretation 100% of the time'.

Quote from: Pat;1135015Go back and look at the early posts. It started with your strawman, and I pointed it out. You denied it. I further clarified my position, and so on. At this point, we were both presenting our cases strongly. We definitely did not agree, but it was civil. That's when Banshee intervened in an inflammatory manner, and I called the wailing spirit an asshole in response.

Except that the post that you mischaracterized as a sTrAw MaN happened immediately after you went off on Banshee. You hadn't even replied to me at that point, and I had commented on another post of yours prior to that. Which really brings into question your recollection of events.

Quote from: Pat;1135015Note that wasn't aimed at you. But it seemed to be the tipping point, because your next post was definitely not civil, and you're still doing it, by making inferences about me in a post to someone else, instead of addressing me directly. You won't find any examples of me lashing out, but you will find cases of me responding in kind.

The strawman is still a sticking point, because I'm not going to defend positions I don't hold. That means we can't really continue the conversation, but we can move on.

It was not a straw man. I was only speaking on generalities and I never claimed that you said you wanted long descriptions. I was merely commenting on people's preferences in my experience, and wasn't even exactly debating you or debunking your points in that paragraph, which is the only type of situation where a "straw man" normally applies or would even be used. Your mischaracterization of my post however, is a straw man.

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1134871For me, the most interesting thing about the first thread (I'm not going to bother with the second) is how few ENWorlders actually understand that a publishing company cannot pay you money it doesn't have. There is no higher authority to appeal to. A union won't help. It's simple mathematics: The pie is this big. And that's that.

I've been in industries where incomes have dropped. I've been in industries where incomes have increased. Guess where I focus? I'm 51 now and I can remember having conversations with Dad in high school about what fields interest me and which of those fields were better than others. Those sorts of conversations are a normal part of growing up.

I don't understand why the Owens of this world simply cannot grasp that the field they have chosen does not pay well and cannot pay well and that, therefore, the wisest course of action is to take your skills (or acquire new/improved skills) and go somewhere else. Even a beggar soon learns to move from one street corner to another if his plastic cup is getting filled.

Having known Owen for quite awhile, I would say it's symptomatic of his generation in a way. He, and many like him, are prone to Utopian thinking. In that if they imagine it can be so, it should be so. However reality doesn't really track that way. He mentions being chided for his weight online, and while that is unkind and rude, it's not surprising considering that he is morbidly obese. That's a statement of fact, but once again in his utopian ideal, you'll never be challenged for your failings, and only be lauded for your successes and accepted for everything else, whether in your control or not. I don't say this to get down on Owen, because he is a good person and excellent creator, but it is a sad reality for many that find the world doesn't live up to their unrealistic ideals. I am not even saying we shouldn't try and do better, but it is pointless to become bitter at reality, and then again, that may be why a "make believe" hobby appeals so much to some people.

Quote from: Shasarak;1134990We both know that most Americans could not find NZ on a map.

Lets give it a try with this IKEA world map:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4582[/ATTACH]

This is humorous, though I can't figure out why a Scandinavian map is being used here to lambaste Americans.