You know, this is all so very rich coming from the "Get Woke, Go Broke" crowd. We see so many threads on the topic of what SJW's bring to the hobby, and whether they spend money or not. If artists and the tabletop gaming market are pandering so hard to the woke crowd, then there must be more money in it than pandering to you tightwads. "What the market will bear." Fuck all you broke cunts.

I think these are realities every bright eyed kid who thinks they can make a living designing games should have to read.  Possibly everyone who gives companies the gears for the products they produce or not.

Quote from: David Johansen;1134387I think these are realities every bright eyed kid who thinks they can make a living designing games should have to read.  Possibly everyone who gives companies the gears for the products they produce or not.

   It would likely not stop more than a couple percent.  Professional MMA is FULL of people who are never, ever going to pay standard living expenses from fighting.  This does not stop them from giving it a shot, despite it incurring great mental, physical and financial costs.  I do not remember the old saying, but it was something like this, a stupid man does not learn from his own mistakes, a wise man does learn from his own mistakes, and a genius learns from the mistakes of others.   Wisdom is VERY underrated and fairly rare IME.

As a writer and publisher, I see a heck of a lot of good insight in Owen's truths. I'd say I have experience of about 85-90% of things he references. I don't agree with all of them, but much of what he says are salient lessons and warnings for anyone wanting to work in RPGs - either as a freelance writer, tenured writer, or as a publisher/producer.

Interestingly, Owen was part of my gaming group while he was still in high school and I had just started college. He was always a very creative player and gamemaster. From talking to him over the years, the vast majority of what he speaks on is from direct personal experience. Creative endeavors are always thankless for the most part and while I agree with most of his points, being entirely dedicated and creative is not (actually very rarely does) going to guarantee commercial success. Also notable is the idea of a living wage, if you insist on only doing what you love, you cannot guarantee your income, only what the market will bear. I worked in printing for 30 years, and I can tell you the margins are slim to nonexistent anymore, whether it be rpg's, comics, magazines or books. Paper costs alone went up 70% in a single year in the early 2010's. I left doing something I loved (graphic designer and photo retouching) because I just couldn't make the kind of money I wanted to live how I wanted. This is a reality in many fields. I finished my degree, got a job that is a horrid grind, but pays me over twice what I was making in print. The point being, Owen made a choice to do what he loved, and while none of what he says is wrong, what isn't mentioned is that he spends a very large portion of his time gaming... my job paying a living wage affords me little time to do that. So while his take on this is much of the downside, there is an upside that shouldn't be forgotten. All choices have consequences.

Quote from: Cave Bear;1134372Nobody besides your employer, anyway. I mean, if your job isn't paying you a living wage, why work for them, right?

Plenty of jobs don't pay a living wage - certainly in the RPG industry! People do it for fun, and either work another job or live with their parents/sponge off partner.

Quote from: Shasarak;1134366Was that the same survey team that told WotC that there was no money in writing adventures?

There wasn't. This huge-assed hardbound "adventure path" thing is a new trend that I'm still trying to figure out where da fauq it comes from, cuz adventures never used to sell this well. Adventure modules were always a loss leader, as far as I'm aware. I've never even ran one in my life and the only times I've bought one was when they included stuff that expanded on a setting.

It's only been these past few years during the 5e era that official looking hardbound monstrosities of adventures have become a thing people seem to like for some unfathomable reason. I think it's tied to a post 9/11 cultural shift where people now want to be told by some established higher authority what to do, rather than think for themselves or do their own thing. So they see a gigantic official tome of adventures direct from WotC telling them what to play and cream themselves.

I've also heard some speculate that these appeal to people who don't really play the game, and see RPGs as "storytelling games". So they like the idea of "adventures" that are basically like an extended story.

Quote from: Cave Bear;1134373You know, this is all so very rich coming from the "Get Woke, Go Broke" crowd. We see so many threads on the topic of what SJW's bring to the hobby, and whether they spend money or not. If artists and the tabletop gaming market are pandering so hard to the woke crowd, then there must be more money in it than pandering to you tightwads. "What the market will bear." Fuck all you broke cunts.

The pandering occurs because most of the people that enter the field are hard leftists and are ideologically driven to pander to their own viewpoints.

Quote from: S'mon;1134369The first truth: No one owes you a living.

Yeah, the pay in RPGs argument seems like it reduces to the minimum wage argument pretty quick. This is a low cost to entry, creative, high-noise space, so standing out in the market is always going to be hard. You can do your own thing but it seems like the only prudent way to break in is as a side-gig unless you're somehow independently wealthy. Companies in this space are only going to be able to pay what the market supports, and the market is fierce. I don't understand the rallying cry of "pay RPG creators" -- with what? I'm sure especially the big-but-smaller-than-WotC players would love to make enough to pay their people more. I was in a con game with someone who mentioned that thanks to active crowdfunding activity for small projects during the pandemic, the company was able to re-hire some people they originally had to let go.

There's some degree of choice in how a company is run, but at some point you have to deal with the market, and this market's not friendly.

Ironically, this is one of the things that made me most sympathetic to the UBI argument. I'm not sure what the right answer is overall, but I do think that life is enriched by having creative and artistic works to enjoy. Letting market realities completely squash creative professions seems like a net loss to humanity. In less democratic times, wealthy patrons filled in, but UBI seems like a potential democratic answer to the problem. There's no guarantee of a wealthy life, but at least pursuing a love of arts is basically viable, if you have the talent and the passion.

Quote from: jeff37923;1134289Most TTRPG game company's art archives are not well indexed... Or indexed....

You should edit in some quote blocks, and attribute them to Owen KC Stephens, so it's clear that's not your writing.

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1134413Ironically, this is one of the things that made me most sympathetic to the UBI argument. I'm not sure what the right answer is overall, but I do think that life is enriched by having creative and artistic works to enjoy. Letting market realities completely squash creative professions seems like a net loss to humanity. In less democratic times, wealthy patrons filled in, but UBI seems like a potential democratic answer to the problem. There's no guarantee of a wealthy life, but at least pursuing a love of arts is basically viable, if you have the talent and the passion.

Pretty much agree with all of this. I know that dumping on the UBI is kinda fashionable and that it might not be feasible, but this is one of the reasons I'm attracted to the idea. Reducing everything to the Pareto Principle doesn't really tell me what to do with the 80% of potentially talented people who aren't lucky enough to earn most of the recognition (and pay) for contributing to their field. It just tells me most people aren't likely to ever be able to succeed no matter what they do.

And I do believe that this comes down largely to luck rather than just talent, cuz plenty of talented people still don't make it, as highlighted by the expression "criminally under subbed" which gets commonly applied to YouTubers with good content and production values (such as Grim Jim, formerly from Inappropriate Characters) that still somehow never seem to break a certain amount of subs or earn enough from Patreon to properly sustain their efforts. Meanwhile lets-players who spew random shit get millions of subs. I think that the same thing applies to pretty much almost any other industry, particularly creative endeavors.

My primary reaction: We should teach economics in grade school. The labor theory of value was thoroughly demolished by the marginal revolution, and there is no theory based on a sense of entitlement. Your pay isn't set by how much you think you're worth, how long you work, or even your skills or experience. It's based on how much other people are willing to fork over for the end result.

And when people are willing to pay you more to do one thing than to do another, you're not entitled to equal pay for the second just because it's what you prefer. That's the choice of the people giving you money, not yours. Which means that, no, you won't always get everything you want. That's a hazard of living in a world with limited resources, and why economics (economizing) is so important. But you can balance your workload, based on your prospects for remuneration and other less tangible rewards, however you want. Which is why a lot of people work part time in the RPG industry, or just treat their work as a hobby and do it for free or token amounts.

My secondary reaction: He's right about the economics of Kickstarters (big dollar amounts != high profits), and about skillsets (being passionate doesn't mean you're good, being good at writing doesn't make you good at business or self-promotion, and managers tend to exemplify the Peter Principle).

Quote from: VisionStorm;1134456Pretty much agree with all of this. I know that dumping on the UBI is kinda fashionable and that it might not be feasible, but this is one of the reasons I'm attracted to the idea. Reducing everything to the Pareto Principle doesn't really tell me what to do with the 80% of potentially talented people who aren't lucky enough to earn most of the recognition (and pay) for contributing to their field. It just tells me most people aren't likely to ever be able to succeed no matter what they do.

And I do believe that this comes down largely to luck rather than just talent, cuz plenty of talented people still don't make it, as highlighted by the expression "criminally under subbed" which gets commonly applied to YouTubers with good content and production values (such as Grim Jim, formerly from Inappropriate Characters) that still somehow never seem to break a certain amount of subs or earn enough from Patreon to properly sustain their efforts. Meanwhile lets-players who spew random shit get millions of subs. I think that the same thing applies to pretty much almost any other industry, particularly creative endeavors.

Yeah. I honestly don't know if UBI would work. I think it's worth thinking about but it's got real economic challenges. I do also like that it reduces reliance on advertisement, too. The heckler's veto gets defanged a bit if it loses some power to interfere with revenue, and artists can be more independent in their work. Another angle of the appeal to lowest common denominator that you touched on, I guess. Grim Jim is a great example, since he likes to explore controversial topics in a free thought sort of way that many advertisers won't be fond of.

Quote from: jeff37923;1134363Was that the same survey team that told WotC everybody would love the changes in D&D 4E?

No it was not. In fact they kinda publicly bashed that prior group. It's the new one that said 5e would be popular. And which got them to playtest everything publicly, and do constant surveys and previews.

Quote from: Shasarak;1134366Was that the same survey team that told WotC that there was no money in writing adventures?

That's the same former marketing team, yes.

And now we have mostly adventures

Quote from: Cave Bear;1134373You know, this is all so very rich coming from the "Get Woke, Go Broke" crowd. We see so many threads on the topic of what SJW's bring to the hobby, and whether they spend money or not. If artists and the tabletop gaming market are pandering so hard to the woke crowd, then there must be more money in it than pandering to you tightwads. "What the market will bear." Fuck all you broke cunts.

This made me laugh