Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1130852Long story short, the tabletop market was going through a slump around the turn of the millennium. White Wolf released the third editions and eventually the CoD in attempts to boost sales. (That failed anyway and they got bought out.) CoD was originally intended to be vague remakes or reboots of the 1st edition WoD, with more mysterious settings and a focus on street-level play. The convoluted backstory of WoD was dropped in order to avoid intimidating newcomers. At least until the "dark eras" reversed that decision.

Honestly, the whole ordeal was pretty messy. It still is messy. Both WoD and CoD have their problems. Supporting them side-by-side doesn't do favors for anybody. I wish WW would have done something like D&D5e and released a universal rules system with information on running WoD, CoD, or a mix thereof. V5 already seemed to have gone in that direction, so I wouldn't be surprised if Paradox ordered CoD3e to be V5 compatible (or cancelled it).

You can probably imagine why I decided to abandon WW games entirely in favor of my own original settings.

Yeah, I've familiar with the basics. I've played vampire since 2nd edition days and I remember when CoD came out. I never really got into it. There are a few things I do like about 2nd edition Requiem, though I was turned off of it from the beginning because of how it changed Clans from political organizations to archetypes.

They cover issue at great length in the World of Darkness documentary I shared a link too.

Generally, the response was [from the owners], "This turned out to have been a terrible idea." Which I don't agree with as Chronicles of Darkness is generally better written, IMHO, and a much-much better rules set.

But it seemed not to hit the sweet spot with a lot of people, including myself, setting-wise.

Paradox giving V5 back to the people who ran the property into the ground in the first place with White Wolf isn't a recipe for success either. It just isn't.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1130860They cover issue at great length in the World of Darkness documentary I shared a link too.

Generally, the response was [from the owners], "This turned out to have been a terrible idea." Which I don't agree with as Chronicles of Darkness is generally better written, IMHO, and a much-much better rules set.

But it seemed not to hit the sweet spot with a lot of people, including myself, setting-wise.

I haven't seen that but I'd like to. I don't necessarily think rebooting the WoD with (what would become known as) the CoD was a mistake. Regardless of what anybody thinks about the respective merits and flaws of both settings, WW is a company that needs to make money and there is only so much you can do with a setting before the setting changes start to rub fans the wrong way. They can't just print the same books over and over again, well, they probably can't. Maybe they could have kept WoD around a bit longer and just made some radical changes - like V5 did. Would it have better to make V5 way back in 2004? I don't know, but it would have divided fans then too just like Requiem did.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1130858Yeah, I've familiar with the basics. I've played vampire since 2nd edition days and I remember when CoD came out. I never really got into it. There are a few things I do like about 2nd edition Requiem, though I was turned off of it from the beginning because of how it changed Clans from political organizations to archetypes.

They spun off the political organizations into the covenants. This isn't much different than what VTM did with the antitribu or anarchs, except that it doesn't provide a multi-page spread for every combination of clan and sect like VTM did. Would you have preferred if every combination received a splat spread?

They aren't really archetypes either. There aren't many documented and consistent archetypes in vampire fiction. WW was just making shit up. That's why the Mekhet are so weird.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1130860They cover issue at great length in the World of Darkness documentary I shared a link too.

Generally, the response was [from the owners], "This turned out to have been a terrible idea." Which I don't agree with as Chronicles of Darkness is generally better written, IMHO, and a much-much better rules set.

But it seemed not to hit the sweet spot with a lot of people, including myself, setting-wise.

All the butthurt WoD fans like to claim CoD was a waste of time. If that was really the case, then CCP would have cancelled it after aquiring WW. But they didn't. Paradox still hasn't.

Obviously it's not a terrible idea if they're still allowing CoD to exist. They're full of shit when they say that. Vigil and Lost were the single best games WW has ever made.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1130861Paradox giving V5 back to the people who ran the property into the ground in the first place with White Wolf isn't a recipe for success either. It just isn't.

How would you suggest not running it into the ground? WoD is one of those properties that was designed in such a way that it cannot avoid running into the ground.

Sure, you could mine the IP for video games in perpetuity I suppose. But it's steadily losing ground in the RPG market to newer games like Blades in the Dark because it banks on a shrinking old guard of nostalgic fans.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1130856Reboots never work. Not in novels, comics, or even movies. There is always a major portion of the audience left disenfranchised and unsatisfied. It's a no-win situation.

Fun fact: Tolkien complained about the "finality of publishing." He wanted to be able to revise his work after it was published.

Reboots exist for complex reasons ranging from capitalism to legal issues to sheer convolution of the source material. Furthermore, long-running franchises inevitably become bogged down in continuity errors.

Reboots are a way to make a fresh start. They aren't always bad. The 2011 Thundercats reboot was great.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1130866How would you suggest not running it into the ground? WoD is one of those properties that was designed in such a way that it cannot avoid running into the ground.

Sure, you could mine the IP for video games in perpetuity I suppose. But it's steadily losing ground in the RPG market to newer games like Blades in the Dark because it banks on a shrinking old guard of nostalgic fans.

New blood. A new perspective is always invigorating. They could have given it to anyone else but the former White Wolf crew. That way, succeed or fail, it would have at least lived or died in the pursuit of new ideas.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1130867The 2011 Thundercats reboot was great.

One success in a sea of failures is hardly any kind of justification to base a company's future on.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1130861Paradox giving V5 back to the people who ran the property into the ground in the first place with White Wolf isn't a recipe for success either. It just isn't.

If you mean Onyx Path Publishing, they are the people who revived WOD after its lengthy absence.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1130866Obviously it's not a terrible idea if they're still allowing CoD to exist. They're full of shit when they say that. Vigil and Lost were the single best games WW has ever made.

FYI - the Documentary was pretty much one long commercial as it was paid for by White Wolf under the table. So the people trashing COD were White Wolf.

I agree with you about Vigil, though. As a long time C:TD fan, I also think "The Lost" is more what fans wanted from a fairy game too.

Quote from: Box Crayon TalesSure, you could mine the IP for video games in perpetuity I suppose. But it's steadily losing ground in the RPG market to newer games like Blades in the Dark because it banks on a shrinking old guard of nostalgic fans.

It should be noted that V5 has outsold all other previous editions of V:TM at this point (due to an international market) and is incredibly, wildly successful. It is now presently the heyday of the World of Darkness, not the 90s. Mike Pondsmith (who is a god) did a similar double take when he found out CD_Projekt Red worshiped him and Cyberpunk 2020 as a God--all of its owners having been addicted to Cyberpunk 2020 during the last days of the Soviet occupation of Poland. Paradox knew there was a market where American game developers didn't.

Basically, it's kind of like Goth itself. Goth disappeared like disco in America and everyone reacted like, "Wasn't THAT embarrassing?" Except, it didn't go away in other countries like Sweden (where Paradox is) and remains a thriving subculture. Vampire: The Masquerade never went away in foreign markets and has steadily grown ever since.

The whole, "V5 is not successful" is basically the "Captain Marvel will fail miserably" of RPGs.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1130874If you mean Onyx Path Publishing, they are the people who revived WOD after its lengthy absence.

You are ignoring an important piece of history. The people who formed Onyx Path were the very same people who ran the WOD into the ground in the first place. Onyx Path was formed in direct response to those people being let go after the original White Wolf dissolved. Onyx Path was formed by those very people.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1130877You are ignoring an important piece of history. The people who formed Onyx Path were the very same people who ran the WOD into the ground in the first place. Onyx Path was formed in direct response to those people being let go after the original White Wolf dissolved. Onyx Path was formed by those very people.

I question the "run it into the ground" summation, though. After all, it ended up being sold well and the biggest failure of White Wolf wasn't CoD but the failed MMORPG that occupied six years of the company's attention.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1130874FYI - the Documentary was pretty much one long commercial as it was paid for by White Wolf under the table. So the people trashing COD were White Wolf.

Then White Wolf is full of shit. Disparaging a decade and a half of their own work and fan investment as a mistake? Seriously, fuck them. I was right to leave this shitty fandom all those years ago.

I can't believe you still like those shitheads. There is something very wrong with you.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1130874It should be noted that V5 has outsold all other previous editions of V:TM at this point (due to an international market) and is incredibly, wildly successful. It is now presently the heyday of the World of Darkness, not the 90s.

I find that very hard to believe, considering a complete lack of corroborating evidence. Do you have hard numbers for sales in the last three decades or is this based on rumors and hearsay?

All evidence we have from various third-party trackers indicates WW has been consistently declining since the early 2000s at least.

In the 90s they sold millions of books according to their website. Nowadays they barely sell a few thousand. They have what, maybe 30,000 fans across the various social media platforms? A number that is steadily shrinking since they're banking entirely on nostalgia to an aging userbase and are now focused on pleasing the tiny and shrinking minority of Scandinavian VTM players.

Their latest kickstarter got around the same number of backers as Blades in the Dark did in 2015. Blades in the Dark was a new IP without an established fandom, and it performed as well as a well-established nostalgic IP.

From all outside indications, WW is fucked. And considering their atrocious attitude to all the investment put into CoD and the scandals they keep falling into, they have horrible business and PR sense.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1130878I question the "run it into the ground" summation, though. After all, it ended up being sold well and the biggest failure of White Wolf wasn't CoD but the failed MMORPG that occupied six years of the company's attention.

You are ignoring the reality that they gave up print through distributors for print on demand and ebooks exclusively. They haven't sold in brick and morter stores in a lot of years. That's not success. That's a continual downspiral.

And yes. They drove the original World Of Darkness into the ground. So much that they made a reboot game to replace it. They gave up on its viability as a product and stopped selling through brick & morter stores.

Onyx Path gave up any pretense of being an actual business the moment they started crowdfunding all of their products. They shoved all the risk on the customer, instead of assuming it themselves. They are barely eeking by on what little good will exists from the fans they have left.

Who took the actual financial risk to produce V5? Modiphius. A company that has never stopped selling to brick and morter stores

Onyx Path doesn't care enough about their products or their customers to make any actual investment or risk themselves. They don't and they never will.

V5 is what is actually available in brick and morter stores. V5 is what now matters. It's actually what is there. The rest is irrelevant.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1130880Then White Wolf is full of shit. Disparaging a decade and a half of their own work and fan investment as a mistake? Seriously, fuck them. I was right to leave this shitty fandom all those years ago.

I can't believe you still like those shitheads. There is something very wrong with you.

Yes, I was surprised by it myself. However, there's one scene they chose to show, shoot, and frame, about them announcing the MMORPG will be set in the Old World of Darkness and the crowd cheering.

QuoteI find that very hard to believe, considering a complete lack of corroborating evidence. Do you have hard numbers for sales in the last three decades or is this based on rumors and hearsay?

Pretty much this is the more incredible annoyance factor because so many fans seem invested in the idea V5 is a failure. It gets doubly annoying because it should be self-obviously wrong because V5 sells internationally in stores whereas Onyx Path only sold via DriveThrough RPG. I mean, you don't have to be Warren Buffet to massively increase your sales that way.

QuoteAll evidence we have from various third-party trackers indicates WW has been consistently declining since the early 2000s at least.

See above for why it's not true.

QuoteIn the 90s they sold millions of books according to their website. Nowadays they barely sell a few thousand. They have what, maybe 30,000 fans across the various social media platforms? A number that is steadily shrinking since they're banking entirely on nostalgia to an aging userbase and are now focused on pleasing the tiny and shrinking minority of Scandinavian VTM players.

Their latest kickstarter got around the same number of backers as Blades in the Dark did in 2015. Blades in the Dark was a new IP without an established fandom, and it performed as well as a well-established nostalgic IP.

From all outside indications, WW is fucked. And considering their atrocious attitude to all the investment put into CoD and the scandals they keep falling into, they have horrible business and PR sense.

Yeah, wrong. Not just wrong INCREDIBLY WRONG.

It won the Origins award for Best RPG of 2019 and Fan Favorite for 2019
https://www.facebook.com/originsgamefair/photos/pcb.2555056247880356/2555055614547086/?type=3&theater

Just see the "What the hell, but we said it was losing fans?" reaction on this page.
https://www.rpgpub.com/threads/vampire-the-masquerade-5th-edition-wins-origins-game-fair-awards.3137/

But they get into the releasing the "best-sellers" of books in this thread and discuss their sources:

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-classic-world-of-darkness/vampire-the-masquerade/1293948-vampire-the-masquerade-5th-edition-sales

Yes. Published information for retail sales comes out from ICv2, in quarters. The most recent one, in which V5 was released, has yes to come out. So we don't know if its in the top five sellers or not.

EDIT: They've literally just been released:

1 Dungeons & Dragons (WotC)
2 Legend of the Five Rings (FFG)
3 Star Wars RPG (FFG)
4 Starfinder (Paizo)
5 Vampire (White Wolf)

Which I point out seems it could be better but it's just behind D&D and Star Wars a few months after its release and has consistently grown since.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1130883You are ignoring the reality that they gave up print through distributors for print on demand and ebooks exclusively. They haven't sold in brick and morter stores in a lot of years. That's not success. That's a continual downspiral.

And yes. They drove the original World Of Darkness into the ground. So much that they made a reboot game to replace it. They gave up on its viability as a product and stopped selling through brick & morter stores.

Onyx Path gave up any pretense of being an actual business the moment they started crowdfunding all of their products. They shoved all the risk on the customer, instead of assuming it themselves. They are barely eeking by on what little good will exists from the fans they have left.

Who took the actual financial risk to produce V5? Modiphius. A company that has never stopped selling to brick and morter stores

Onyx Path doesn't care enough about their products or their customers to make any actual investment or risk themselves. They don't and they never will.

V5 is what is actually available in brick and morter stores. V5 is what now matters. It's actually what is there. The rest is irrelevant.

Fair enough.

Since I actually do believe V5 has been pulled out of the gutter due to Paradox and Modiphius selling to stores, I completely agree that they have a much more viable business strategy.

Well played sir!