Quote from: tenbones;1130696I don't understand why WoD threads get so fucking *weird*.

It's not difficult. Pick the edition you like. Change the canon/ignore it/embrace it (tee hee) to the degree that you find gives you the most fun - start throwing dice-pools. BUENO!

My mind keeps drifting towards going FASERIP with WoD...

Any sufficiently large fandom will eventually get people who hate or love contradictory things. Look at D&D.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1130694Generally, I like V5 for the following reasons:

1. There's no reason to buy a new edition without changes: I held off on buying V20 because until the very last supplement, there wasn't really any changes to the setting. It was just an Anniversary edition that collected all the information from previous editions without the metaplot. As a guy who had all those books, I didn't really need any of it. Without a metaplot or setting updates, there's just nothing for long term fans.

2. It updates the setting to 2018: The original World of Darkness lasted a few years after the devastating attacks but culture has actually changed as a whole. The rise of the surveillance state, acknowledgement of looter capitalism, conspiracy theories being discredited while real abuses of power happen in the open, and so on all mean that it's very different from 1992. Even the cellphone camera needs acknowledgement for the setting to make sense.

3. The Anarchs finally get treated seriously: In a setting based on the Old vs. Young, Order vs. Freedom, and the Rich vs. Poor, it's amazing how much the Anarchs were shit on. I think literally the only time they ever got any respect in the history of the setting was early Chicago by Night and Bloodlines. Making them a full scale insurrection against the Camarilla that took out Berlin and Las Vegas is a good idea.

4. The Camarilla gets updated into being the Illuminati instead of Vampire United States: I like the new feel for the Camarilla where only the Elite 1% of the 1% are allowed in. It makes them feel more aloof from humanity and helps encourage the plucky rebels against the ManTM. It feels more topical that there's classicism in the vampire world. Toreador and Ventrue elders don't want to associate with dirty Brujah or Caitiff.

5. It acknowledges its global fanbase: The biggest thing I liked about the otherwise shitty Camarilla and Anarch books (I'll be honest, V5 had its rough spots) is the fact that they remember V:TM's fanbase is arguably much-much larger globally than it is in the United States. Its still huge in Germany, Russia, South America, Italy, and other places whereas it kind of died here. These books nicely talk about a globalized interconnected vampire world. The Ashirra, for instance, are no longer the ridiculous cariactures they are. They've also just flat out retconned the Kuei Jinn out of existence and have Tokyo as a Camarilla city.

6. The Chicago update: Chicago by Night 1st Edition is my all time favorite campaign supplement and introduced me into "real" roleplaying. It's a book which has special meaning to me with its deep storytelling, fully realized 3-dimensional characters, diverse cast, and fascinating melodrama. Releasing V5 Chicago by Night had me in full Leonardo Dicaprio meme mode about V5.



7. The grittier, darker feel: I think it's generally accepted that the majority of tabletop games are played by 30+ year olds now the same way that video games are often marketed to them. As such, I feel like V5 has a general sense that it's no longer marketing to middle class white teens the way it did in the 90s. Sex, violence, economic inequality, racism, and so on were always there but they seem more pertinent to the characters as well as tales in V5. They're going street level and I prefer that to ANTEDILUVIANS ATTACK! The characters are designed to be Neonates, the opponents include mortals, and the power level is much darker. We're less Silver Age Superman now and more Netflix's Daredevil.

8. The multi-media campaign: V5 would have my gratitude for the fact it's doing Bloodlines 2 alone as that's one of my all-time favorite games despite its jankiness. However, it's also made a lot of effort to expand into board games, card games, visual novels (Coteries of New York is a guilty pleasure), plus Twitch streams that are quite good like LA BY NIGHT and SEATTLE BY NIGHT. I really think this is a wise stragedy with V5 allowing a common campaign setting as well as rules.

9. The willingness to course correct: The Chicago by Night and Fall of London books both contain a lot of retcons and clarifications that are designed around mitigating the mistakes of the past. They also addressed the issue of the Chechnya disaster and fired an employee who made a very successful game for them the moment allegations against him came out.

10. They told Nazi fans to fuck off: Much like JRR Tolkien did to the original Nazis.

https://www.polygon.com/2018/7/13/17565898/vampire-the-masquerade-white-wolf-neo-nazi-accusations

"White Wolf is a very diverse team," Carl said in response to a question in Twitch chat, "and we feel that we are a global company and that we have a global community and that everybody is welcome in that community.

"Unless you are a Nazi," Carl continued, "or a neo-Nazi, or a member of any other hate group that uses these disgusting philosophies to advance your hateful agendas. If you are a member of one of those groups or support those agendas we don't want you in our community. You aren't welcome, and if we find you spreading your hate in our community you will be shown the door. We don't want your money. You can keep it."

+10 Experience Points to you, Jason.

Ironically, all the shit you listed are all the reasons I hated V5, oddly enough, except for retconning the Kuei-Jin. That was the one good thing they did.

It's all so pretentious and snobbish, I fucking hate V5.

And the tenth reason was so ridiculous and reeks of a sort of reverse McCarthyism or a lefty version of the Satanic Panic.

If Nazi douchebags buy and play V5, there's nothing that White Wolf can do about it.

All the harping on about it is just cringe-worthy virtue signalling reminiscent of TSR removing demons and devils from AD&D 2E.

Actually, it's more idiotic than that.

It'd be like if Varg Vikernes went on a rant telling Jews and Muslim refugees not to buy his shitty MYFAROG game or if the guys who did Twilight 2000 telling communists to not buy the game and how they're not welcome.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if there were some Neo-Nazis who bought V5 and played a session of it just to spite the punks at White Wolf. If I were a dumb Nazi fuck, I'd do just that.

Thankfully I'm too intelligent to be a Nazi, and therefore too intelligent to waste money on a game I don't like such as V5.

No offense, but I think you have Stockholm Syndrome and you're a slave to the metaplot. I do like you, but I'm worried that your brand loyalty to White Wolf is getting every bit as troubling as Box Crayon Tales's hate-boner crusade against them.

Seriously, give a chance to my upcoming counter-canon. It will be a good Rule Zero'd version of Vampire that shows an alternate "What If?" version of the World of Darkness

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1130700Ironically, all the shit you listed are all the reasons I hated V5, oddly enough, except for retconning the Kuei-Jin. That was the one good thing they did.

It's all so pretentious and snobbish, I fucking hate V5.

No shit, what a revelation.

QuoteAnd the tenth reason was so ridiculous and reeks of a sort of reverse McCarthyism or a lefty version of the Satanic Panic.

Fuck Nazis. Nazis are shit.

Guys who hate Nazis are not the same as guys who hate kids who wear black and have bad attitudes.

QuoteIf Nazi douchebags buy and play V5, there's nothing that White Wolf can do about it.

They can insult them every other paragraph, which I'm all for.

Because fuck Nazis.

I live in Kentucky. Nazis are not something you call people you disagree with on the internet. They're guys who wave Nazi flags and beat up gay people. Last year one of them killed a black couple in my Kroger because he couldn't break into a church to go on a mass shooting spree. There's dozens of militias in my area of wannabe Tim McVeighs and guys waiting for the next race war.

I'm all for calling em out as the Goth and counterculture subculture in my area was about rejecting the white power conformity. More power to em.

QuoteAll the harping on about it is just cringe-worthy virtue signalling reminiscent of TSR removing demons and devils from AD&D 2E.

The person who hates the person who hates Jews is not the same as a person who hates Jews.

I'm all for tolerance until it requires tolerating assholes.

QuoteActually, it's more idiotic than that.

It'd be like if Varg Vikernes went on a rant telling Jews and Muslim refugees not to buy his shitty MYFAROG game or if the guys who did Twilight 2000 telling communists to not buy the game and how they're not welcome.

Yep. I think its solid to know whether your dollars are supporting a shitbag or not.

QuoteI honestly wouldn't be surprised if there were some Neo-Nazis who bought V5 and played a session of it just to spite the punks at White Wolf. If I were a dumb Nazi fuck, I'd do just that.

Thankfully I'm too intelligent to be a Nazi, and therefore too intelligent to waste money on a game I don't like such as V5.

No offense, but I think you have Stockholm Syndrome and you're a slave to the metaplot. I do like you, but I'm worried that your brand loyalty to White Wolf is getting every bit as troubling as Box Crayon Tales's hate-boner crusade against them.

Hate to do it but...

"I like playing the game and support it because I think it's fun."

I know, CRAZY!

I just love Gothic Punk. Have since I was 12. I write books about them and make money off it.

QuoteSeriously, give a chance to my upcoming counter-canon. It will be a good Rule Zero'd version of Vampire that shows an alternate "What If?" version of the World of Darkness

I'll bear that in mind.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1130701No shit, what a revelation.



Fuck Nazis. Nazis are shit.

Guys who hate Nazis are not the same as guys who hate kids who wear black and have bad attitudes.



They can insult them every other paragraph, which I'm all for.

Because fuck Nazis.

I live in Kentucky. Nazis are not something you call people you disagree with on the internet. They're guys who wave Nazi flags and beat up gay people.

I hate Nazis too. Who doesn't hate Nazis?

"I hate Nazis" is as simple-minded and idiotically obvious as saying "I hate cancer." Like, it doesn't even need to be said.

Unless you explicitly identify as a Nazi, people are going to assume you oppose them. Do you get the point I'm trying to make?

Being so vocally anti-Nazi just seems unhinged, like when the McCarthyists were shrieking about Communists.

The Communists were awful as well, and just like the Nazis, you did have violent communist gangs like the IWW militias and commie infiltrators in the 1950's like Alger Hiss, to say nothing of the Cold War, but harping about the commies and seeing them under every rock and tree just proved how insane McCarthyism had gotten.

And I grew up in Appalachia, Southwestern Virginia, to be exact.

Dickenson County, Virginia directly borders Pike County, Kentucky.

I know how vile the morally conservative Protestant redneck savages in Appalachia can be, so you don't need to lecture me about anti-gay sentiment. I'm a bisexual male who leans heavily on the gay side of things.

I hate Nazis and Rednecks but I also hate Communists and Anarchists. Fuck 'em both.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1130702I hate Nazis too. Who doesn't hate Nazis?

"I hate Nazis" is as simple-minded and idiotically obvious as saying "I hate cancer." Like, it doesn't even need to be said.

Seriously, where have you been on the fucking internet?

Also, why the fuck do you think I'm lecturing YOU specifically?

We're in agreement, fuck Nazis, but there's no end to the places I've had to deal with guys who are either "ironic" Nazis or are racist homophobe geeks. Usually, they tend to say they're Neo-Confederates even if they're Nazi flag wavers because that's mildly more socially acceptable.

It's a pain in the ass to see they're all over the properties I love. Also, White Wolf HAS had a Nazi problem in the past. There used to be a sizeable Neo Nazi fandom of Werewolves.

QuoteI hate Nazis and Rednecks but I also hate Communists and Anarchists. Fuck 'em both.

I hate communism as an authoritarian totalitarian religious persecution group and see no reason you can't oppose both Nazis and communists. I'm a recovering anarchist, though.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1130703Seriously, where have you been on the fucking internet?

A lot more places than you can imagine.

Don't mistake a vocal minority of idiotic assholes on the internet for the majority opinion.

That is a mistake made by both Alt-Right Neo-Nazis and woke Neo-Bolsheviks.

Performative bullshit like the stuff done by Onyx Path and Nu-White Wolf is just cringe-inducing and off-putting for most people, and I say this as someone who would be killed by Nazis.

I'm also someone who'd get killed or gulag'd by Communists, for that matter.

So fuck 'em both.

We need a Counter-Canon to serve as a fan alternative to V5.

If you're a Nazi, you probably won't like my counter-canon.

But if you're a commie, an anarchist, or an extremist SJW, you won't like it either.

Commie Punks Fuck Off! Fuck The Punk Subculture!

In a perfect world, the 1970's would have ended with Punk dying and Disco surviving instead.

[video=youtube;JVnkDZEX85Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVnkDZEX85Q[/youtube]

Dumbasses on the internet are not indicative of the real world.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1130703Seriously, where have you been on the fucking internet?

Also, why the fuck do you think I'm lecturing YOU specifically?

We're in agreement, fuck Nazis, but there's no end to the places I've had to deal with guys who are either "ironic" Nazis or are racist homophobe geeks. Usually, they tend to say they're Neo-Confederates even if they're Nazi flag wavers because that's mildly more socially acceptable.

I hate communism as an authoritarian totalitarian religious persecution group and see no reason you can't oppose both Nazis and communists. I'm a recovering anarchist, though.

I'll admit I jumped the gun and thought you were attacking me specifically.

I got so used to be singled out and dogpiled on Onyx Path Forums, I automatically assume it's an attack on me specifically.

There's a reason I intentionally got myself banned last year on there.

Thanks to Onyx Path Forums, I now know what it's like to envy the dead.

It's good to know we're in agreement on the communism part. I hate Nazis and Communists, and I think the Neo-Nazis in your area is because you have the misfortune of living in Central Appalachia, AKA America's cesspit.

I live in that same region and I know the pain.

I can't stand the Goth and Punk shit because I've got a very bad history dealing with those scenes, punk especially, and I've realized prefer metal, disco, and classic rock anyway.

They don't have to be off the internet to make the lives of those who dwell in the net miserable.

And White wolf had a net positive effect on my life.

It opened my eyes to a lot of things and subcultures that made me less of an asshole. So, yes, I am very fond of it.

Just saying.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1130706They don't have to be off the internet to make the lives of those who dwell in the net miserable.

And White wolf had a net positive effect on my life.

It opened my eyes to a lot of things and subcultures that made me less of an asshole. So, yes, I am very fond of it.

Just saying.

For me, my experiences with those subcultures have been entirely negative.

Where I stand, the Goth and Punk subcultures seem to be very cult-like and the ones in my area are openly communistic and authoritarian, even if they claim to be anti-authoritarian, at least from my experiences both online and offline.

I edited my previous post to better address more of your points, and I understand we have different experiences on the matter, but what I have to say is worth considering.

Bear in mind, I have no ill will against you personally, and I think you have a lot of potential as a player in a prospective WoD counter-canon chronicle I am planning, especially with your vast knowledge and input as a White Wolf fan who was there from the beginning.

So, I haven't read all of the V5 book, though I have skimmed it and picked up tidbits of information here and there. Let me reaction to a few of these points.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1130694Generally, I like V5 for the following reasons:

1. There's no reason to buy a new edition without changes: I held off on buying V20 because until the very last supplement, there wasn't really any changes to the setting. It was just an Anniversary edition that collected all the information from previous editions without the metaplot. As a guy who had all those books, I didn't really need any of it. Without a metaplot or setting updates, there's just nothing for long term fans.

This is pretty much correct. If there aren't changes then it's no different from V20 and there is no reason to buy it. Now, of course, changes are a double edged sword. Changes must be made otherwise there is no point, but that opens up the possibility for removing things that lots of people like or introducing things that people don't like.

Quote from: CTPhipps;11306942. It updates the setting to 2018: The original World of Darkness lasted a few years after the devastating attacks but culture has actually changed as a whole. The rise of the surveillance state, acknowledgement of looter capitalism, conspiracy theories being discredited while real abuses of power happen in the open, and so on all mean that it's very different from 1992. Even the cellphone camera needs acknowledgement for the setting to make sense.

I'm not sure if I completely agree with your assessments, but changes have happened and I guess addressing some of them is a good thing.

Quote from: CTPhipps;11306943. The Anarchs finally get treated seriously: In a setting based on the Old vs. Young, Order vs. Freedom, and the Rich vs. Poor, it's amazing how much the Anarchs were shit on. I think literally the only time they ever got any respect in the history of the setting was early Chicago by Night and Bloodlines. Making them a full scale insurrection against the Camarilla that took out Berlin and Las Vegas is a good idea.

Now, I like bringing more focus to the Anarchs because to me the elders vs anarchs was one of the key interesting features of the original V:tM. But making the Anarchs their own sect with Clans unique to them actually undermines what Anarchs actually are. It turns the Anarchs into the Sabbat. Anarchs are the younger vampires fighting against the power of the elders, but if they have their own Clans then that means that we have elder Gangrel, Brujah, and Setites commanding their childer to fight against the Camarilla for them. The Anarchs only make sense within the Camarilla, otherwise they aren't really Anarchs like the Sabbat weren't Anarchs even though they started out that way.

Quote from: CTPhipps;11306944. The Camarilla gets updated into being the Illuminati instead of Vampire United States: I like the new feel for the Camarilla where only the Elite 1% of the 1% are allowed in. It makes them feel more aloof from humanity and helps encourage the plucky rebels against the ManTM. It feels more topical that there's classicism in the vampire world. Toreador and Ventrue elders don't want to associate with dirty Brujah or Caitiff.

The Brujah aren't just Anarchs though. They aren't dirty Caitiff. They have elders and ancients, a history to compare with any Clan. They were philosopher kings of old and elders of the Camarilla will remember that. Similar things can be said for the Gangrel and Setites. That is why Anarch Clans don't really make sense. Caitiff were never really respected in the Camarilla, in many cases they were hunted by scourges. In large part, the Camarilla is V:tM and we don't want them to be too aloof from the player perspective, that is what the elders are for.

Quote from: CTPhipps;11306945. It acknowledges its global fanbase: The biggest thing I liked about the otherwise shitty Camarilla and Anarch books (I'll be honest, V5 had its rough spots) is the fact that they remember V:TM's fanbase is arguably much-much larger globally than it is in the United States. Its still huge in Germany, Russia, South America, Italy, and other places whereas it kind of died here. These books nicely talk about a globalized interconnected vampire world. The Ashirra, for instance, are no longer the ridiculous cariactures they are. They've also just flat out retconned the Kuei Jinn out of existence and have Tokyo as a Camarilla city.

I'm alright with this. Though WoD always had a global outlook, it could have been done better. Then again, I get the feeling that what we have now could be done better too.

Quote from: CTPhipps;11306946. The Chicago update: Chicago by Night 1st Edition is my all time favorite campaign supplement and introduced me into "real" roleplaying. It's a book which has special meaning to me with its deep storytelling, fully realized 3-dimensional characters, diverse cast, and fascinating melodrama. Releasing V5 Chicago by Night had me in full Leonardo Dicaprio meme mode about V5.

I never used the Chicago stuff so I don't really care, though Chicago has been one of the most focused on locations in V:tM since 1st edition so I can understand how it could excite a lot of people. It's not a negative in my mind.

Quote from: CTPhipps;11306947. The grittier, darker feel: I think it's generally accepted that the majority of tabletop games are played by 30+ year olds now the same way that video games are often marketed to them. As such, I feel like V5 has a general sense that it's no longer marketing to middle class white teens the way it did in the 90s. Sex, violence, economic inequality, racism, and so on were always there but they seem more pertinent to the characters as well as tales in V5. They're going street level and I prefer that to ANTEDILUVIANS ATTACK! The characters are designed to be Neonates, the opponents include mortals, and the power level is much darker. We're less Silver Age Superman now and more Netflix's Daredevil.

I think that maybe it's gone a little too street level for my tastes. In revised we had too much metaplot and methuselahs around every corner determine events that players lived in the shadows of. I don't think that is good. But I also think that the machinations of the elders should be something that players can be exposed to or even participate in. It's a balancing act. I don't think it's wrong to have powerful players either, it's not bad wrong fun.

Quote from: CTPhipps;11306948. The multi-media campaign: V5 would have my gratitude for the fact it's doing Bloodlines 2 alone as that's one of my all-time favorite games despite its jankiness. However, it's also made a lot of effort to expand into board games, card games, visual novels (Coteries of New York is a guilty pleasure), plus Twitch streams that are quite good like LA BY NIGHT and SEATTLE BY NIGHT. I really think this is a wise stragedy with V5 allowing a common campaign setting as well as rules.

That's probably true. Not necessarily something I care about but it's a good point.

Quote from: CTPhipps;11306949. The willingness to course correct: The Chicago by Night and Fall of London books both contain a lot of retcons and clarifications that are designed around mitigating the mistakes of the past. They also addressed the issue of the Chechnya disaster and fired an employee who made a very successful game for them the moment allegations against him came out.

I don't know if I am familiar enough with this one to comment or care.

Quote from: CTPhipps;113069410. They told Nazi fans to fuck off: Much like JRR Tolkien did to the original Nazis.

https://www.polygon.com/2018/7/13/17565898/vampire-the-masquerade-white-wolf-neo-nazi-accusations

"White Wolf is a very diverse team," Carl said in response to a question in Twitch chat, "and we feel that we are a global company and that we have a global community and that everybody is welcome in that community.

"Unless you are a Nazi," Carl continued, "or a neo-Nazi, or a member of any other hate group that uses these disgusting philosophies to advance your hateful agendas. If you are a member of one of those groups or support those agendas we don't want you in our community. You aren't welcome, and if we find you spreading your hate in our community you will be shown the door. We don't want your money. You can keep it."

+10 Experience Points to you, Jason.

Here's where I have the most trouble. If the people putting out V5 don't want right wingers to give them any money, then I will happily oblige that demand and continue playing older editions and their various permutations.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1130714Here's where I have the most trouble. If the people putting out V5 don't want right wingers to give them any money, then I will happily oblige that demand and continue playing older editions and their various permutations.

I feel like this brings up the issue of what exactly is a right winger. All the conservatives I know are viciously anti-Nazi and most of them have come about to being anti-Neo Confederate due to the fact the latter are increasingly hanging around with the former. You lie down with dogs and you get fleas. It's also the fact that there's a greater awareness via the internet that the Confederacy's romanticism was just a big pack of lies and it was always about white supremacy as well as slavery. If you're a conservative, I'd argue you have an obligation to agree with Jason Carl that "Nazi punks fuck off."

It's a sentiment the Dead Kennedys mastered after all when they got a misaimed fandom from said group.

https://youtu.be/x5SYjoZsLQE

Be that as may, the company has made it a point of being socially progressive as a point of its nature. I don't see that as a problem as i don't think anything can state itself to be "art" unless it has some form of message to convey even if it's one as mild as, "Racism is bad, homophobia is bad, trans people are people." White Wolf sometimes went much further with questionable results like, "Environmental terrorism is justified against Satanic megacorporations because Gaia says so" but you have to take the fiction with a grain of salt.

Or, as I explained on Onyx Path's forums, "When I am talking about Nazis, I'm not being hyperbolic. I mean the actual guys who say we should go kill everyone brown and Jewish. Maybe you think there's not a lot of them but there's enough to be worrisome in my area and they have guns."

Quote from: CTPhipps;1130715I feel like this brings up the issue of what exactly is a right winger. All the conservatives I know are viciously anti-Nazi and most of them have come about to being anti-Neo Confederate due to the fact the latter are increasingly hanging around with the former. You lie down with dogs and you get fleas. It's also the fact that there's a greater awareness via the internet that the Confederacy's romanticism was just a big pack of lies and it was always about white supremacy as well as slavery. If you're a conservative, I'd argue you have an obligation to agree with Jason Carl that "Nazi punks fuck off."

It's a sentiment the Dead Kennedys mastered after all when they got a misaimed fandom from said group.

https://youtu.be/x5SYjoZsLQE

Be that as may, the company has made it a point of being socially progressive as a point of its nature. I don't see that as a problem as i don't think anything can state itself to be "art" unless it has some form of message to convey even if it's one as mild as, "Racism is bad, homophobia is bad, trans people are people." White Wolf sometimes went much further with questionable results like, "Environmental terrorism is justified against Satanic megacorporations because Gaia says so" but you have to take the fiction with a grain of salt.

Or, as I explained on Onyx Path's forums, "When I am talking about Nazis, I'm not being hyperbolic. I mean the actual guys who say we should go kill everyone brown and Jewish. Maybe you think there's not a lot of them but there's enough to be worrisome in my area and they have guns."

This isn't a political forum, so I probably shouldn't go off on the very long tangent about what is wrong with Jason Carl's politics or the statements he's made, or refused to make, regarding V:tM. Suffice it to say that it's way more complicated than just being against literal Nazis. Should people take a stand for what they believe in? If so, then I would take a stand and say that I wouldn't give any money to Jason Carl even if I absolutely loved his product. In retrospect, some of the stuff that WW has put out over the years has been pretty political, and pretty horrible, too. V:tM was never as bad because it was less about real world politics and more about the politics of vampires. Looking back, knowing what I do now, I might have avoided some of WW's products in the past, but I was a dumb teenager and didn't know any better.

I don't buy WW products because they don't appeal to me. I find the setting too restrictive (and the rules are horrible). I prefer something like The Everlasting, WitchCraft, or Nephilim. I really have no recourse but to make my own settings.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1130722I don't buy WW products because they don't appeal to me. I find the setting too restrictive (and the rules are horrible). I prefer something like The Everlasting, WitchCraft, or Nephilim. I really have no recourse but to make my own settings.

I very seldom stick exactly to a setting, I always like to change things around. Of course, if somebody else is running it they may go with canon, but my regular gaming group plays fast and loose with canon too. So I judge a setting not so much based on taking it exactly as is, but whether or not it inspires good ideas. Sometimes a setting that inspires me to alter it quite a bit is still good in my opinion because it made me interested enough to do that. I'd put WoD games in that category, full of good ideas and ideas I don't like so much, but so interesting it makes me want to customize it to my tastes.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1130725I very seldom stick exactly to a setting, I always like to change things around. Of course, if somebody else is running it they may go with canon, but my regular gaming group plays fast and loose with canon too. So I judge a setting not so much based on taking it exactly as is, but whether or not it inspires good ideas. Sometimes a setting that inspires me to alter it quite a bit is still good in my opinion because it made me interested enough to do that. I'd put WoD games in that category, full of good ideas and ideas I don't like so much, but so interesting it makes me want to customize it to my tastes.

I have to agree that WoD does still manage to inspire me to change it because of its perceived shortcomings.

Like, VTR2e introduced literal succubi and jiangshi clans eventually (fifteen years after initial release), but because of the poorly-conceived toolkit format they're only ever going to be obscure options in obscure side books. And they still haven't adopted the superior discipline format used by V5. To say nothing of my many other complaints.

EDIT: For example, VTR2e introduces the "pijavica" loosely based on Balkan folklore. In the folklore, the vampire is a poltergeist for the first 40 days/nights of existence before maturing into a human form. In the game lore, they're extinct and you can't play them.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1130694Generally, I like V5 for the following reasons:

Yeah, like I said... was never going to convince me. Let's break these down;

Quote1. There's no reason to buy a new edition without changes:

There's also no need to change things just for the sake of change; which is why so many of the mechanics in V5 are mediocre, counter-intuitive or just plain don't work.

And if you're only changing things as an excuse to sell a new core book... maybe you shouldn't be choosing to release a new edition at this point. There was absolutely nothing wrong with V20's mechanics that required wholesale dumping of them in favor coin-flips hidden behind d10s, video-gaming up the disciplines (Potence is good for damage and movement, but you can't actually use it to interact with the environment by lifting things... that is straight out of video game logic) and whole new mechanical systems that completely change how the game is played (Chronicle Tenants, Touchstones and Convictions).

To borrow from the old D&D edition wars... if they wanted to make a brand new game based on vampires they should have done that instead of trying to sell their version as Vampire the Masquerade.

Quote2. It updates the setting to 2018

So did V20... smart phones, hacktivism, etc. is all there. V5 was a money grab and attempt to re-invent the setting to be more woke because the updates had already happened.

Quote3. The Anarchs finally get treated seriously:

The Anarchs got turned into the Sabbat, complete with their own specific Clans with elders, that completely undermines the point of being an Anarch in the first place while the Sabbat got put on a bus and driven into an IED. If your faction can only be taken seriously by turning it into another faction and removing the original faction, it never deserved to taken seriously. I'd argue they work better as a joke particularly because of your next point...

Quote4. The Camarilla gets updated into being the Illuminati instead of Vampire United States: I like the new feel for the Camarilla where only the Elite 1% of the 1% are allowed in. It makes them feel more aloof from humanity and helps encourage the plucky rebels against the ManTM (emphasis added). It feels more topical that there's classicism in the vampire world. Toreador and Ventrue elders don't want to associate with dirty Brujah or Caitiff.

They've always been the Illuminati and what makes point 3 above even funnier is that in real life those plucky Occupy/Antifa/BLM rebels V5 wants you to identify with get the majority of their funding from the same behind the scenes globalist money men who own most of the politicians they're paid to protest against. Nothing about this needed any sort of new edition, much less a complete gutting and trashing of the rules to be able to portray... it just needed a book with these things as plot points.

Quote5. It acknowledges its global fanbase:

V20 largely took care of those things too. Again I ask... Brand new shitty mechanics were needed to acknowledge their global fans why? Are the global fans not interested in the classic mechanics that they were fans of in the first place?

Quote6. The Chicago update:

Chicago was always the setting you read, but never bothered to actually play with because there was too much already established to allow players any degree of freedom. I've gotten more use out Chicago by Night (1e, 2e and the NWoD version) as a geography supplement for my MAGE game than I ever got use out of it for Vampire.

Plus they killed off Menele... Not. Cool.

Quote7. The grittier, darker feel: ... They're going street level and I prefer that to ANTEDILUVIANS ATTACK! The characters are designed to be Neonates, the opponents include mortals, and the power level is much darker. We're less Silver Age Superman now and more Netflix's Daredevil.

A) You realize of course that this also what was done with the much reviled Mage Revised right? "Who wants to play Ethernauts exploring weird magical dimensions when you can play grungy street rats trapped in a world of dying magic?" When you change the fundamental assumptions of the game, but insist its actually the same game, you're going to get backlash and longtime fans of how it was will hate it with the fiery passion of 1000 suns because its basically selling the notion of "how you used to play it was wrong."

B) Vampire in previous editions could be as dark and gritty if that's how you wished to play it. A Ventrue whose herd was sex workers he'd trafficked into the country because he was embraced into the early 1800s and could only gain nourishment from slaves. A vampire gang actively fighting gentrification of a neighborhood because rich people with sturdy locks are a lot harder to feed on than crackheads in shitty apartments. A Malkavian with the derangement of "diagnostic hypochondria" who'd managed to gain control over the county's mental health institutions and used them to remove their opposition and get toys for her more sadistic childer to play with. The Brujah who is funding and directing both Antifa/BLM and White Nationalist movements to create violent clashes wherever and whenever they need them. Systematically destroying people of honor and integrity so that compromised and bought of individuals could get their positions... none of those required a new edition or even game mechanics to pull off.

Nor did those elements require changing the game to make it impossible to use for those groups that instead wanted a game of Vampions with trenchcoats, katanas and cool powers going up against ancient Methuselah horrors.

V5 wants Vampions to be declared "badwrongfun" so... Fuck V5.

Quote8. The multi-media campaign:

9. The willingness to course correct:

10. They told Nazi fans to fuck off:

None of these things required gutting the core mechanics of all the previous editions and telling players who preferred those styles that they were playing it wrong. Bloodlines 2 is going to sell like hotcakes because its Bloodlines 2, not because of any changes made to the tabletop RPG its based on. Correcting course is a corporate policy that has nothing to do with the quality of V5, nor does telling Nazis to fuck off (which one would assume is a given) make the dumpster fire that is V5 play any better.

So yeah... you gave me a bunch of touchy-feely reasons that are 99% associated with the surrounding fluff.

I don't give two warm shits about fluff; Give me the V5 fluff and I could run it using V20 (or "d20 Modern" for that matter) with no issues at all.

I routinely come up with my own fluff as needed for the games I run. I thought the official write up of Boston was lame... so I shit-canned it and wrote up my own cast of NPCs for my Vampire game. Took me about four hours to get the basics laid out and the rest has developed in play as needed.

My issue is that V5's mechanics make the work done by the Arcanis guys for their own game system look competent (if you haven't heard this story the short version is that their "math guy" thought 2d10 would produce identical results to a 1d20 in terms of probability distribution and that was just the START of that system's issues).

Is V20's mechanics perfect? Nope, but they're way more intuitive to new players than V5 is... and if you're going to use something the size of a d10 in a "count successes" system you should have a reason for it like the variable difficulty numbers used in the classic World of Darkness. There is also a ton of flexibility in being able to both assign variable difficulty numbers AND use grades of success as part of the same resolution mechanic (with static difficulties you're adding or removing dice as modifiers which can adjust the number of successes scored... by contrast 3 dice in classic World of Darkness, even against difficulty 2, will never score the five successes needed for certain actions) that is just lost in V5.

I also really hate the mechanical change that you only ever be fully satiated by murdering someone and the subsequent retcon that you're not really a "blood" vampire... you're a "life-force" vampire that just happens to use blood as a medium. You could drink a hundred pints of blood from people lined up and still be hungry in V5 even though you'd physically be bloated up like a tick about to burst.

That's just stupid. But then... that's V5 in a nutshell.