Quote from: Chris24601;1130027What your main beef could be summed up as is; "it's not a toolkit."

You clearly enjoy tinkering with rules, but you seem blind to the fact that not everyone does.

Not everyone wants to build a motorcycle from scratch. They're not interested in how you could customize it to be the perfect ride for them... they just want a bike that runs  so they can take it out and enjoy the sun, fresh air and countryside.

Your complaint is that the WoD only sells fully assembled motorcycles and not boxes of parts you have to assemble yourself.

I do like having pre-made campaign settings. I just don't like the particular arrangements written by White Wolf, with perhaps the exception of Hunter: The Vigil and Changeling: The Lost. I'm disappointed that none of the other games are as interesting.

Also, I've seen WoD fans say they like the games for opposite reasons to what you're saying. For example, I've heard lots of vampire fans claim to ignore/despise the Christian lore.

Anyway, my proposed urban fantasy game is a multiverse. That would allow me to produce a variety of settings exploring particular concepts. For example, the monster mash world has vampires, werewolves, wizards, ghosts, fairies and whatever all rubbing shoulders and interacting in a hidden magical underworld. I'm going to write a bazillion books of lore in order to get potential players invested.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1130062I do like having pre-made campaign settings. I just don't like the particular arrangements written by White Wolf, with perhaps the exception of Hunter: The Vigil and Changeling: The Lost. I'm disappointed that none of the other games are as interesting.

Also, I've seen WoD fans say they like the games for opposite reasons to what you're saying. For example, I've heard lots of vampire fans claim to ignore/despise the Christian lore.

Anyway, my proposed urban fantasy game is a multiverse. That would allow me to produce a variety of settings exploring particular concepts. For example, the monster mash world has vampires, werewolves, wizards, ghosts, fairies and whatever all rubbing shoulders and interacting in a hidden magical underworld. I'm going to write a bazillion books of lore in order to get potential players invested.

There's a definite divide on the fact that vampire is built around Judeo-Christian lore being objectively true. Personally, I love it but I think that's something that there's no right answer to as I think the game would be far weaker without it. I also think it's linked to one of the issues that is now being shown with the fact the Sabbat have been all but ignored in 5E. A vocal minority play the game to be monsters, inhuman, and evil.

The fact that they're being denied this and forced to play Louis-esque people with ties to humanity [via Touchstones] REALLY ticks them off.

I feel like the dislike of Christian lore ties into the fact the guilt themes and Fall from Grace element ticks them off.

I do note that this is why it's good there's variety because I've met people who LOVE the God-Machine and others who think there's nothing remotely interesting about playing a "fake" Angel. One of the weirdest complaints I ever had was a guy who thought that Demon: The Fallen shouldn't have canonized Judeo-Christianity as the basis for them.

I'm like, "That's the game, dude."

For most unhealthy relashionship i would vote Joshua Gabriel Timbrook. From what i have heard(and keep in mind this is all hearsay from long ago i have no facts whatsoever to back it) he produced a metric ton of artwork for white wolf and suddently there was a disagreement. He left them with a picture of a vagoo they had to publish cause there was a dealine or somesuch and he no longer works with them. Anyhow thats how i heard it, may be complete gobledygook.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1130065There's a definite divide on the fact that vampire is built around Judeo-Christian lore being objectively true. Personally, I love it but I think that's something that there's no right answer to as I think the game would be far weaker without it ... I feel like the dislike of Christian lore ties into the fact the guilt themes and Fall from Grace element ticks them off.

A lot of people who hate Christianity really underestimate the degree to which it undergirds the very Western civilization that allows them to openly hate Christianity. They've lived within the framework of a Christian civilization for so long they honestly believe that what the West regards as basic human rights would have developed without the moral framework of Christian thought.

This despite the fact that the lot of men throughout history was enslavement of the weak by the strong, restrictions on travel and economic opportunities, summary execution for dissidents and those too weak to be of use to the elites, and genocide of conquered peoples as standard policy.

We've also seen all of those start to return in societies that have abandoned Christian principles.

Without the Christian overtones of sin, guilt, unlife as a curse and the struggle to retain humanity, Vampire is just a power fantasy... a Superman (or more accurately Nietzsche's Ubermensch) with fangs. You may as well go play Mutants & Masterminds if that's what you're looking for in a game.

A related thing that ticks me off in that regard is that in games where Christianity is NOT the expectation (ex. most D&D campaigns) the Christian is expected to accept that as part of the fantasy setting's lore... but God forbid (pardon the pun) that someone who dislikes Christianity be forced to accept it as a part of a fantasy setting's lore.

Particularly when Christianity was so overtly a part of the very novel that started the whole Vampire craze in the first place. One of the details I loved in the novel was the genuine discomfort of Mr. Harker (a proper Protestant) of being told that only the symbols and blessed objects of the Catholic Church would have any power to thwart Dracula.

It's fascinating too that so many have issues with it from a hostile perspective because vampires are The DamnedTM anyway and one of the player options are a sect that revels in it.

Oh well, I guess some people just don't want religion in their entertainment.

But I think it adds to the "authenticity" of the game in a way that, say, making all the vampires descendants of Tiamat and Marduk or virus based creatures wouldn't.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1130065I do note that this is why it's good there's variety because I've met people who LOVE the God-Machine and others who think there's nothing remotely interesting about playing a "fake" Angel. One of the weirdest complaints I ever had was a guy who thought that Demon: The Fallen shouldn't have canonized Judeo-Christianity as the basis for them.

I'm like, "That's the game, dude."

Just as bad as a player who wanted to get into generic rpgs like Hero System or Gurps ( can't remember which ) and then complained that it was too generic. What part of generic and toolkit does one not understand.

Objecting to Vampire being Christian (or more accurately Abrahamic) is silly. All sorts of role playing games assume that some sort of cosmology is true and its very seldom Christianity, but you seldom see complaints about any variety of other religions being true or not in RPG's. I'm an atheist and Vampire's cosmology never bothered me. Though personally I always interpreted Noddism as being more mysterious than established fact. I also always viewed the spirit WoD gaminess as being in distinct universes instead of a single unified setting.

One thing that White Wolf has done that is very smart is that it's taken advantage of Twitch and social media to be able to savvily restore its fanbase. Let's Plays and taking advantage of things like Geek and Sundry have gotten huge fandoms back into the games.

They've also made the smart decision of getting a VAMPIRE: THE MASQUERADE: BLOODLINES 2 in creation with a much larger fandom than most RPGs there, ready to get back into the world. The visual novel, COTERIES OF NEW YORK, sold very well and took almost no time to make. It's even got a sequel coming out later this year. I understand they're doing cellphone text games as well.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1290270/Vampire_The_Masquerade__Night_Road/

Really, if not for the existence of BLOODLINES, I don't think White Wolf would have been able to make the transition back to prominence.

I don't have a problem with Christianity, but I prefer having options in my world building. I remember being one of those few who defended the use of Christian-derived virtues and vices in CoD1e. Looking back on it now, that's mostly because I was too lazy to replace them given the trivial nature of the personality mechanics. So what if they're Catholic? The morality mechanic itself never made sense to begin with, because in real life stealing a candy bar doesn't drive you insane.

Like, I don't mind the GMC conflict as an idea (I've briefly thought of a techgnostic campaign with virtual adepts, nosferatus, glasswalkers, and unchained) but I think calling them angels and demons was a mistake (in fact, I've never liked WW game jargon). I vastly preferred the Spanish netbook Demonio: La Redencion, which was an agnostic take on Demon: The Fallen. Each of the social splats had a different take on the fallen/nephilim's place in the universe, with some believing themselves created by God to be adversaries while others believe God is evil and must be stopped.

Anyway, I simply don't like the execution of the XoD games and I prefer having alternatives that don't need to be hacked beyond recognition to get what I want. In other media markets like prose, visual arts, and video games we have a plethora of options. In the tabletop urban fantasy, we only have XoD. Why haven't any other settings been able to compete with XoD? What makes tabletop different from every other medium?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1130108I don't have a problem with Christianity, but I prefer having options in my world building.

This is where we definitely differ because I *HATE* multiple choice in supplements. I consider it one of the quickest ways to convince me not to buy a supplement. A supplement should tell me who, what, when, where, and how. The world should be absolutely detailed with its power players, what they've involved in, their relationships, and with the mysteries of the setting spelled out.

I know some people who HATE this but it's also why I love metaplot.

Because it gives me an easy way of advancing the timeline of my game world and seeing how players deal with changes.

So it's why I could never get into Chronicles of Darkness.

When I open the V:TR Bloodlines books, I was like, "Wait, how do all of these new bloodlines politically relate to each other?"

Developer: They don't. Some may be canon, some may not, and some might be totally different in your game! DO IT YOUR WAY!

Me: "Listen, jackass, I didn't come here for a cookbook. I came here for a meal."

Quote from: CTPhipps;1130111This is where we definitely differ because I *HATE* multiple choice in supplements. I consider it one of the quickest ways to convince me not to buy a supplement. A supplement should tell me who, what, when, where, and how. The world should be absolutely detailed with its power players, what they've involved in, their relationships, and with the mysteries of the setting spelled out.

I know some people who HATE this but it's also why I love metaplot.

Because it gives me an easy way of advancing the timeline of my game world and seeing how players deal with changes.

So it's why I could never get into Chronicles of Darkness.

When I open the V:TR Bloodlines books, I was like, "Wait, how do all of these new bloodlines politically relate to each other?"

Developer: They don't. Some may be canon, some may not, and some might be totally different in your game! DO IT YOUR WAY!

Me: "Listen, jackass, I didn't come here for a cookbook. I came here for a meal."

No offense, but the fact you both demand and need a metaplot at all just makes it look like a lack of creativity on your part.

Requiem 1E was the superior game because it had no metaplot, and it's why V1 and V20 ar are infinitely better than the pale imitation that is V5 no matter how much the punks and pretentious hipsters at White Wolf and Onyx Path have conditioned you to think otherwise.

V5 tried to emulate V1 in a shallow way by focusing on the Anarchs and being all punk and preachy, but what most people liked about V1 was the lack of metaplot.

You had a backstory in the first edition of Vampire: The Masqueadem but not a metaplot.

Just because Masquerade 1E wasn't as vague in its backstory and setting than Requiem 1E does not mean that it had a metaplot. The metaplot didn't come in until the later editions of Masquerade.

I'd say Chicago by Night 2E and the "Under A Blood Red Moon" module from 1993 were the start of the metaplot, and it got extremely egregious around the time of Revised.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1130118No offense, but the fact you both demand and need a metaplot at all just makes it look like a lack of creativity on your part.

I save my creativity for my occasionally books. Sometimes you don't have time to work all week on a Chronicle.

QuoteRequiem 1E was the superior game because it had no metaplot, and it's why V1 and V20 ar are infinitely better than the pale imitation that is V5 no matter how much the punks and pretentious hipsters at White Wolf and Onyx Path have conditioned you to think otherwise.

In your opinion. If you hate metaplot, having a metaplot is bad.

If you LOVE metaplot, it is a good thing.

QuoteV5 tried to emulate V1 in a shallow way by focusing on the Anarchs and being all punk and preachy, but what most people liked about V1 was the lack of metaplot.

V1 lasted a year before V2's release so people didn't really have a chance to develop a love of metaplot or not. Also, it provided CHICAGO BY NIGHT which was all about providing a complicated and dense world full of stories.

Oh ASHES TO ASHES and UNDER A BLOOD RED MOON which was the first metaplot of the setting. Which, as you say, was the beginning and I think very solid entertaining.

QuoteYou had a backstory in the first edition of Vampire: The Masqueadem but not a metaplot.

Yes, but the metaplot was when it was at its most popular.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1130111This is where we definitely differ because I *HATE* multiple choice in supplements. I consider it one of the quickest ways to convince me not to buy a supplement. A supplement should tell me who, what, when, where, and how. The world should be absolutely detailed with its power players, what they've involved in, their relationships, and with the mysteries of the setting spelled out.

I know some people who HATE this but it's also why I love metaplot.

Because it gives me an easy way of advancing the timeline of my game world and seeing how players deal with changes.

So it's why I could never get into Chronicles of Darkness.

When I open the V:TR Bloodlines books, I was like, "Wait, how do all of these new bloodlines politically relate to each other?"

Developer: They don't. Some may be canon, some may not, and some might be totally different in your game! DO IT YOUR WAY!

Me: "Listen, jackass, I didn't come here for a cookbook. I came here for a meal."

That's why I intend to marry the best of both World of Darkness and Chronicles of Darkness by offering both a toolkit of splats for creative GMs and a multiverse of pre-created worlds for lore junkies. You can travel between them if you want to.

Not only that, but my campaign settings would also provide future timelines. Want a campaign setting where the timeline is detailed all the way to 12,090 A.D.? I'm going to make that!

Want a cyberpunk future with cyborg vampires? A space opera with vampire castles in space? A dark future where a darkened sky allows vampires to walk 24/7?

I'll write whatever it fucking takes to steal market share from White Wolf. If I have to recreate Tech Infantry and Dungeons: The Dragoning, then I damn  well will!

I don't like the metaplot. I always liked how much more free Vt:tM before revised, and V20 recaptured some of that feeling for me. Sure, 2nd edition created a bunch of what would come to be called the metaplot, but it always seemed more optional to me back then. 2nd edition was full of a bunch of crazy ideas, myths, plot hooks, etc. If you didn't use them, no big deal. With revised, if you weren't following the metaplot then the books became less and less useful to you. I'm no V5 expert but it seems like V5 continues in that vein.

The biggest benefit of metaplot is that it makes getting new books to be a requirement. You're going to pick them up so you can find out the next part of the story, like continuing to watch a series. If you don't have a metaplot, you don't really need to buy more books in a series. I didn't pick up V20 until Beckett's Jyhad Diary because I didn't have anything I needed from V20. It was all stuff I knew about already and just reprints as well as rephrasing of information I knew from being a dedicated 2nd Edition and Revised fan.

But metaplot meant CHANGES and NEW stuff that REQUIRED me to get it.