Would not be too hard to do Bronze Age in D&D, but this Blood & Bronze system is also really great for this period.
Very simple, intuitive for old school players, and lots of atmosphere.
Here is a great review by Questing Beast:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rmsqJsOczQ

Getting back to swords, this is apparently a Kassite (Middle Babylonian) sword from around 1400-1100 BC. It's 16.250 inches long. The handle probably had wood inlays.

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;1127488A recreation of the Dendra panoply. Achilles' armour may have been similar. [ATTACH=CONFIG]4305[/ATTACH]

I believe they have also recovered bronze age military picks that look remarkably similar to medieval versions. While no one thinks bronze plate was especially common, it appears to have been common enough that people developed weapons to deal with it.

Jeebus... am I the only one on this forum that's read the Anabasis?  

Xenophon is going on and on about these day long battles (against the motherfucking Kurds of all people) where they are upset that, like, one guy gets wounded... sometimes killed.  Too late for ya?  Fine, the Uluburun Shipwreck was carrying copper and tin sufficient to make ELEVEN TONS of Bronze, almost certainly all of it was meant for military use. I doubt they were planning to make eleven tons of spear and arrowheads... some of that shit was almost certainly armor.  That is ONE ship, one load of cargo, and it wasn't even the entire load.

Regarding swords: I've read that the Carp's Tongue was the single most common Sword in use during the bronze age, so regarding the earlier comment about the Kopesh's popularity, I'm curious as to source.[ATTACH=CONFIG]4330[/ATTACH]

Quote from: Spinachcat;1127182Here is the article. It's pretty good.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/04/sword-wielding-scientists-show-how-ancient-fighting-techniques-spread-across-bronze-age#

Here is the video. It's kinda cringey.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FP2Pu3Dgir4&feature=emb_logo

It's a light article, but its enough to start up some discussion.

Looking forward to seeing posters link to other articles / videos related to Bronze Age Swords. Even if they all do D6 damage, its interesting to learn about their place in the Bronze Age! The more I've learned about the Bronze Age over the decades, the more I'm inclined to make that era the default for my OD&D.

Have a look at the full article, it's very interesting.

Quote from: Spike;1127879Jeebus... am I the only one on this forum that's read the Anabasis?

Oh I've read it, but it's at a pretty far remove from the Bronze Age. Be that as it may, I didn't notice anyone arguing that heavy bronze armor like the Dendara plate wouldn't provide good protection so I'm not sure how casualty rates in the March Upcountry tell us anything about how common heavy bronze armor was among the Mycenaeans.

QuoteFine, the Uluburun Shipwreck was carrying copper and tin sufficient to make ELEVEN TONS of Bronze, almost certainly all of it was meant for military use.

That does sound like a lot of bronze, but why do you say that "almost certainly all of it was meant for military use?" Are you arguing that armor like the Dendara plate was a very common item in the Mycenaean culture?

Quote from: Spike;1127879Jeebus... am I the only one on this forum that's read the Anabasis?  

Xenophon is going on and on about these day long battles (against the motherfucking Kurds of all people) where they are upset that, like, one guy gets wounded... sometimes killed.  Too late for ya?  Fine, the Uluburun Shipwreck was carrying copper and tin sufficient to make ELEVEN TONS of Bronze, almost certainly all of it was meant for military use. I doubt they were planning to make eleven tons of spear and arrowheads... some of that shit was almost certainly armor.  That is ONE ship, one load of cargo, and it wasn't even the entire load.

Regarding swords: I've read that the Carp's Tongue was the single most common Sword in use during the bronze age, so regarding the earlier comment about the Kopesh's popularity, I'm curious as to source.[ATTACH=CONFIG]4330[/ATTACH]

I could of course ask the same of you.

But as for my sources, it's not one, it's several. The khopesh pops up in books about Egypt, Canaan, and the Hittites. It is often called a "scimitar" or "sickle sword" but if you look at the figures you'll see the khopesh. They found one in Tutankhamun's grave, so it clearly had some prestige as a weapon. With the Hittites, it's strange how iron weapons are often mentioned in texts, but they have found very few of those, but they HAVE found several bronze swords including khopesh. I don't have any numbers though, and I do know that straight swords were more common towards the west (e.g. Minoans and Britain). You also have some of those in the M-E and other shapes like the Middle Babylonian one I showed above. (EDIT: found it in "Cultural Atlas of the World: Ancient Egypt" by Baines and Malek, they call it "scimitar". But again no numbers of course)

Found another Babylonian bronze sword very similar to my earlier image. Searching around a little, this seems to have been a common sword type in Babylonia.

Watching Skallagrim's youtube testing of bronze swords, I think it may indirectly point to another reason why bronze weapons were phased out relatively quickly many places when the iron age started. The bronze swords stand up pretty well against most "normal" material, like wood etc. But the moment it clashes against steel, bronze starts chipping quite horribly. Not a big surprise, and the effect may have been somewhat less against really old-fashioned impure steel of course. But perhaps when SOME people started switching to iron blades, then everyone had to do the same, simply because the old bronze weapons were very easily damaged by the new weapons. This was less important on suits of armor, because as long as they absorb the blows they are still doing their job.

Quote from: Trond;1127521I have a few objections to this view (although it's a common one)

Quote from: Trond;1127521Looking at the Iron Age as a whole, when was steel NOT invented? There are examples of steel being used before the Iron Age proper started. Steel is just a specific part of the continuum that is iron combined with carbon. Of course, they did get better and better at making it.

It not a matter whether it was invented it was a matter of how easy it was to create. Bronze as a material was "good enough" and you could both easily forge and cast it without a loss of quality. Iron and steel was much more difficult to deal with and required higher tempature to get a better quality metal.

Finally the process of carburization didn't happen right away with the discovery of iron smelting during the bronze age. However by the time of the collaspe of the Bronze Age happen in the 13th and 12th century BC the idea of adding carbon to produce steel was rapidly spreading. This made for a superior metal for tools and weapons than bronze.

Quote from: Trond;1127521Also, many early Iron Age people frequently used steel/iron for blades and bronze for armor (e.g. Classical Greece). There are also examples of razors with steel blades and bronze handles. It seems to me that the switch happened more because iron implements could hold a better edge, not because of the scarcity of bronze (although that was a problem, for some people at least).

Steel is more durable in all respect. Bronze was easier to work with. So as long as trade existed there was little reason to try improve iron working. But once the great empires of the Bronze Age collapse along with long distance trade, people fell back on local resources including abundant iron ore. Combined with the spread of knowledge of carburization ment that Iron supplanted Bronze.

Finally because of the relative ease of finding Iron compared to Copper and Tin, Iron tools and weapons were cheaper once enough people started making it.

Greetings!

Indeed, it also seems that the proliferation of iron-smithing knowledge allowed numerous secondary nations, smaller powers, and tribal groups to rise in power against previously powerful kingdoms and empires, and also the proliferation of rebellions. Iron weapons and armour were a kind of powerful "equalizer" between states and tribes, and created an enormous shift in power and societal change overall.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I found this two days ago, the docx version is excellent to build off of.

https://github.com/Umbyology/OGL-SRD5/tree/master/formats/docx

Quote from: Bren;1127890Oh I've read it, but it's at a pretty far remove from the Bronze Age. Be that as it may, I didn't notice anyone arguing that heavy bronze armor like the Dendara plate wouldn't provide good protection so I'm not sure how casualty rates in the March Upcountry tell us anything about how common heavy bronze armor was among the Mycenaeans.

To be fair to myself, I did point out that it was a 'bit late'. I don't think, technologically, we are actually too far removed from the Bronze Age, and the way armor actually worked in the field, but I think we're lacking contemporary 12th Century BC texts involving armies marching in the fields, so it's as close as we're likely to get.  Now: if we were talking tactics and strategy, I would never have brought it up... not only is it 'too late', but by all accounts Xenophon was a god damn genius, inventing half a dozen new methods of combat on the fly that are still used to this day... though maybe he just has a really good PR flack in his corner...

QuoteThat does sound like a lot of bronze, but why do you say that "almost certainly all of it was meant for military use?" Are you arguing that armor like the Dendara plate was a very common item in the Mycenaean culture?

The second clause of your question is confusing to me. Maybe I've had a bit too much Gin and Tonic?  What I mean (and mind you that the analysis of the intended use of the wreck is not my own, but was repeated (paraphrased?) in multiple academic sources that exposed me to its existence.  Certainly Bronze could be, and was, used for things other than weapons and armor. Decoration comes to mind, as does 'high end' utility use (bronze cups and plates for the wealthy?), but the experts (names... fuck me, If you insist I'll dig up some names...) seem to agree that this sort of shipment was meant for arrowheads, swords, and we can assume (Because we're talking about it...) armor.... and probably also chariot fittings I'd guess.  Military stuff.

When talking about the Myceneans and the Bronze Age, however, things get a bit dicey.  The Myceneans were very much outsiders, and culturally unique in the interconnected world we consider the 'bronze age civilization'... you know, those cool guys like the Egyptians, the Hittites, the Ugarites, the Mittani and Assyrians and so forth.  They were much more militarized, with their 'cyclopean' fortress cities, and appeared to have thrived on mercenary work and raiding, while still being respectable enough to entertain diplomatic envoys from Egypt and to engage in trade*.  In other words, from the perspective of the Civilized Bronze Age world, the Myceneans may very well have, to a man, worn Dendara Panoply, while at home it was only common among the upper class warriors and raiders who 'brought home the bacon' leaving serf-farmers to tend the land in homespun wool.






* Sorry, I just really want to make an analogy to Vikings of the Aegean here, but couldn't quite make it fit with the narrative flow, so you get it as a footnote. Enjoy.
   That aside, from the contemporary Hittite view, the famous Battle of Troy was not about rescuing some Thot, but instead the Myceneans taking advantage of civil unrest in the Hittite Empire to stir up some trouble and bring home some loot.  Interesting stuff.

Quote from: Trond;1127894I could of course ask the same of you.

But as for my sources, it's not one, it's several. The khopesh pops up in books about Egypt, Canaan, and the Hittites. It is often called a "scimitar" or "sickle sword" but if you look at the figures you'll see the khopesh. They found one in Tutankhamun's grave, so it clearly had some prestige as a weapon. With the Hittites, it's strange how iron weapons are often mentioned in texts, but they have found very few of those, but they HAVE found several bronze swords including khopesh. I don't have any numbers though, and I do know that straight swords were more common towards the west (e.g. Minoans and Britain). You also have some of those in the M-E and other shapes like the Middle Babylonian one I showed above. (EDIT: found it in "Cultural Atlas of the World: Ancient Egypt" by Baines and Malek, they call it "scimitar". But again no numbers of course)

Unfortunately I can't cop to a single source, as it was one of the first things I learned about the bronze age when I seriously began my kick on Bronze age military stuff some... ugh... 15 years ago. If I may, I would expand on my original phrase of 'most common' to be, as I recall more accurately, 'Most Widespread'.  As I have a few days of kicking back on my heels, I'll see if I can't dig up some more on the topic.  I'm terrible about keeping track of where I learned things... the curse of the hobbyist, one might say... I only lately learned the value of proper source citations from my desultory forays into academia...*

The Kopesh would feature heavily in history due to its use by the Egyptians, who were both one of the great Bronze Age Empires, and also the only Bronze Age Civilization to weather the Bronze Age Collapse.   This gives the Egyptians and outsized imprint on history, without really telling us much about the Bronze Age as a whole, though we do learn a lot from their perspective.  

Interestingly, in regards to your comment: The image of the Carp's Tongue Sword I posted is a recreation of a bronze age sword found in England, so you may be on to something with regards to regional favorites.




*The best I can do off the top of my head for my source was that I was researching bronze age weaponsmithing, and that I may have gotten that information from a guy who specialized in recreating bronze age swords... also from England, so may be biased, now that I think about it...  I've done a casting, but it came out terrible and I haven't had the time to try again. I seem to fail hardest at mold making...

Quote from: Spike;1128423Xenophon was a god damn genius, inventing half a dozen new methods of combat on the fly that are still used to this day... though maybe he just has a really good PR flack in his corner...

Probably a bit of both. Like Caesar.

Thanks for the explanation. I wonder if we know enough about the Bronze Age to figure out if that ship was just some average merchant vessel rather than the Bronze Age equivalent of a Spanish Treasure ship.

Estar, I agree with most of that, just a few notes.

Quote from: estar;1128233It not a matter whether it was invented it was a matter of how easy it was to create.

That was sort of my point. My second point is, I am among those who don't really get the "it's not iron, it's steel" argument. The gold ring you have is less gold than your steel knife is iron. If it's carbon steel, then it's likely nearly pure iron, except for a small percentage carbon.

 

Quote from: estar;1128233Bronze as a material was "good enough" and you could both easily forge and cast it without a loss of quality. Iron and steel was much more difficult to deal with and required higher tempature to get a better quality metal.

Finally the process of carburization didn't happen right away with the discovery of iron smelting during the bronze age. However by the time of the collaspe of the Bronze Age happen in the 13th and 12th century BC the idea of adding carbon to produce steel was rapidly spreading. This made for a superior metal for tools and weapons than bronze.


 Steel is more durable in all respect...

Well, except for rust of course.

Quote from: estar;1128233Bronze was easier to work with. So as long as trade existed there was little reason to try improve iron working. But once the great empires of the Bronze Age collapse along with long distance trade, people fell back on local resources including abundant iron ore. Combined with the spread of knowledge of carburization ment that Iron supplanted Bronze.

Finally because of the relative ease of finding Iron compared to Copper and Tin, Iron tools and weapons were cheaper once enough people started making it.

Possible, but there is a lot of "story telling" about how it happened out there. It took a slightly different trajectory in China. My suspicion is that it would have happened either this way or that. Even as late as around 400BC people were still phasing out bronze (notice differences in armor between the Greeks 400 BC and the Romans 100AD), so you could say that the border between Bronze Age and Iron Age is a bit arbitrary. But my third (?) point was this; notice how it was used. Almost nobody points this out. Bronze was used in armor and iron was used in blades. This supports the view that one of the main advantages of iron was edge retention.