Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1070330I have never enjoyed industrial magic.  So the sales pitch for Ebberon drove me away immediately.

I had the same issues. Until, literally, last week.

I started reviewing the Oracles of War AL series and it suddenly all clicked. Scavengers in a ragtag city/camp on the edge of the forbidden zone, making forays in to recover things. This has Gamma World (my all time fav) written all over it.

A cloud bank straight out Fury Road, a little ways off from town. Screaming faces and buildings collapsing sometimes appear in the fog. Fuck Yeah! That's where I want to adventure!

The actual implementation, though, is utterly shit. It comes off as boring.

EDIT: The read aloud in question -
Outside Salvation, a titanic fogbank extends like a
cliff wall along the border of the Mournland. As
you approach it, the fog churns into ominous
shapes: screaming faces, collapsing buildings, and
outstretched hands. Explosions flash within the
gloom, but no sounds are heard.
Entering the fog, the temperature drops and you
hear whispering, scratchy voices inside your heads.
You feel like you’re being watched from all sides:
but before you have time to rethink your decision,
you emerge from the fog into a gray, blasted
battlefield. You have entered the Mournland.

I cant think of an RPG ive read that doesnt have a rule that says you can do whatever you want and allow whatever you want as a GM.

Quote from: Slambo;1119168I cant think of an RPG ive read that doesnt have a rule that says you can do whatever you want and allow whatever you want as a GM.

AD&D certainly made it clear that they would rather you didn't. They were looking toward convention gaming and being able to move from place A to place B and still find a game with the exact rules you were used to. That had not been an issue with OD&D, where very few ran Rules as Written.
The general idea was "if you aren't running RaW, you aren't running D&D." So I stopped even calling what I ran D&D.

Quote from: bryce0lynch;1119166The actual implementation, though, is utterly shit. It comes off as boring.

EDIT: The read aloud in question -
Outside Salvation, a titanic fogbank extends like a
cliff wall along the border of the Mournland. As
you approach it, the fog churns into ominous
shapes: screaming faces, collapsing buildings, and
outstretched hands. Explosions flash within the
gloom, but no sounds are heard.
Entering the fog, the temperature drops and you
hear whispering, scratchy voices inside your heads.
You feel like you're being watched from all sides:
but before you have time to rethink your decision,
you emerge from the fog into a gray, blasted
battlefield. You have entered the Mournland.

I don't find it boring - especially if you read it while listening to the track from Mad Max: Fury Road.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3yxnD9Lflw

I like the Mournland especially Living Spells and the Lord of Blades.

Quote from: Shasarak;1119178I like the Mournland especially Living Spells and the Lord of Blades.

I didn't mind the idea of the Mournland, but the execution seemed very weak. There were lots of good ideas but no coherent theme that hinted at what might have caused it. This is not unique though; much of Eberron deliberately avoided tight themes in favor of "anything is possible" kitchen sink bundles.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1119181I didn't mind the idea of the Mournland, but the execution seemed very weak. There were lots of good ideas but no coherent theme that hinted at what might have caused it. This is not unique though; much of Eberron deliberately avoided tight themes in favor of "anything is possible" kitchen sink bundles.

I disagree that having the cause of Mournland left open is inherently bad, it lets the DM come up with their own reason.

Maybe the incoherence that you see is due to too many tight themes jumbled together.  I mean you have Sharn, the city of Towers which is a nice tight theme and then you have Dinosaur riding Halflings which is a tight theme but mixing Sharn and Halflings together may seem incoherent.

I played Eberron in 3rd edition, and there are a lot of things I like about it.

First off, it's really designed around low- to mid-level play.  In a setting like Forgotten Realms, you can't throw a stone without accidentally hitting an epic-level wizard.  That puts a credibility strain on the setting; if the high-level characters are ALWAYS too busy with world-ending threats than having ANOTHER world-ending threat is just a ho-hum Tuesday.  If the epic-level characters aren't busy with important things, then you think they'd take over the adventure when the PCs explain and provide proof of the world-ending threat.  The fact that Eberron is built around the 'sweet spot' of adventuring is good.  

Secondly, I think the cosmology is interesting and a refreshing change of pace from the Great Wheel.  Basically Eberron has 'extra-dimensional critters' but they're explicitly tied to celestial cycles - having it as a setting conceit that alien invasions can totally happen, but ONLY SOME TIMES helps explain how secret cults haven't destroyed everything already.  

Thirdly, the setting isn't trying to be a historical medieval setting but with magic.  There's a real problem with introducing things like create water as a 0-level spell, but then expecting people to worry about crossing the desert.  Eberron embraces a magitech idiom which actually makes sense for the setting - and since magic works like technology the setting is somewhat closer to 'modern' than most settings.  The Lightning Rail gives the setting a bit of a wild west flair.

Fourthly, the setting is 'after the great war', and that's really a nod to World War I.  While jhkim referenced Western, Pulp and Victorian tropes, it also plays well with 'noir' settings.  You can do Chicagoland prohibition style gang wars, hard-boiled detective stories and more.  

Ultimately, since the setting incorporated the rules and the rules informed the setting, it works as an integrated setting better than most.  If you have a vision of a middle-earth style world, but you have standard 3.x clerics, the world stops making sense almost immediately.  Eberron largely avoids those pitfalls.  

Where the setting falls flat is they really wanted to have lycanthropes and dopplegangers, but they couldn't make them equivalent to humans and elves.  The races all feel like humans with rubber-foreheads, and that's a shame.

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1119171AD&D certainly made it clear that they would rather you didn't. They were looking toward convention gaming and being able to move from place A to place B and still find a game with the exact rules you were used to. That had not been an issue with OD&D, where very few ran Rules as Written.
The general idea was "if you aren't running RaW, you aren't running D&D." So I stopped even calling what I ran D&D.

False. We've dissected that fallacy before. The DMG specifically tells you to tweak it however you want. BUT. To be aware that tweaks may break something AND to be aware that your tweaks are NOT going to be the same as some other DMs tweaks.

Reading more through the 5e book.

I like the bit of the backstory that once the goblins ruled the whole continent and had a civilization, and were, and still are focused on honor and duty.
Orcs are dilligently keeping contained the demon kingdom. The demons being possibly not demons in the normal sense and possibly dome sort of nightmare beings from the dream realm.
The dream realm is a total wreck with the evil faction currently having the upper hand and the good faction opting to take the long road approach and try and subvert the corrupted dreamlands back into something positive.

Quote from: Omega;1119211False. We've dissected that fallacy before. The DMG specifically tells you to tweak it however you want. BUT. To be aware that tweaks may break something AND to be aware that your tweaks are NOT going to be the same as some other DMs tweaks.

That's not how it read to us then. It read like a slap in the face to creative DMs and a reassurance that the creators would protect the players from the DMs. It's been a long time but I remember the reactions of the DMs and players in my area. I talked on FB this morning to one really good DM from that period who happened to run Rules as Written and he was offended by the way the DMG addressed Dungeon Masters. Maybe we were too used to "the DM is god" and the intention was not to alienate us but that's water under the bridge.

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1119266That's not how it read to us then. It read like a slap in the face to creative DMs and a reassurance that the creators would protect the players from the DMs. It's been a long time but I remember the reactions of the DMs and players in my area. I talked on FB this morning to one really good DM from that period who happened to run Rules as Written and he was offended by the way the DMG addressed Dungeon Masters. Maybe we were too used to "the DM is god" and the intention was not to alienate us but that's water under the bridge.

I remember DMs back in the day that had whole folders full of houserules so it would not surprise me to know that there were DMs offended at being told to run the game as written.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1070294Eberron was never good.

Ravenloft is where it's at!

Never understood the love for Eberron. But whatever.

Ravenloft will always be a module to me. The Boxset however... was interesting.

Quote from: Shasarak;1119291I remember DMs back in the day that had whole folders full of houserules so it would not surprise me to know that there were DMs offended at being told to run the game as written.

Except it doesnt tell you to run the game as written.

I cant find the quote from an older thread but in the AD&D DMG it specifically says change whatever you want. But be aware that that might break something or be incompatible at someone elses table. The introduction alone goes at length on this and at various points in the book it specifically yells the DM they may have to come up with stuff on their own as the rules were not intended to be all encompassing. It also tells you to cut out rules that get in the way of gameplay.

QuoteThe final word, then, is the game. Read how and why the system is as if is, follow the parameters, and then cut portions as needed to maintain excitement.

Tells you to change monsters as fits your campaign, or make new ones.

What is stressed is the DM should know the system before tweaking said system. And that sticking close to the rules means there is less hassle between campaigns.

Try again please.

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1119266That's not how it read to us then. It read like a slap in the face to creative DMs and a reassurance that the creators would protect the players from the DMs. It's been a long time but I remember the reactions of the DMs and players in my area. I talked on FB this morning to one really good DM from that period who happened to run Rules as Written and he was offended by the way the DMG addressed Dungeon Masters. Maybe we were too used to "the DM is god" and the intention was not to alienate us but that's water under the bridge.

That is your problem that you read it as an insult. Why? Because someone told you it was an insult? Congratulations for being cattle.