Quote from: Brendan;1116134But if you go back to the medieval mindset, magic and monsters were very much part of their world - as was monotheism.  It isn't an "arbitrary" restriction, because its grounded in an attempt to model, or at least imitate, a particular kind of society.  

I really don't understand this argument that crops up from time to time that "if you have magic than why not anything goes?" The implication is that if your fictional world deviates in any way from what modern people imagine the "real world" consists of, then it's all just made up bullshit, so who cares?  But fiction, good fiction, has verisimilitude.  It isn't just a grab bag of pop cultural crap.  This is even true for "magic" in fiction.  The magic in good fantasy worlds has an internally consistent logic.   When authors use "magic" as an excuse to break the rules of the world they've constructed it jars.  

It's the close cousin of "if you have elves, why not space alien lizard-cat-robots from the future?"   I'm not saying you CAN'T have space alien lizard-cat-robots in your game, but if you chose to do so, it is very much going to affect the feel and flavor.  If you're trying to play a historical game set in feudal Japan and someone wants to roll up a modern American special forces soldier - complete with fully automatic weapons and explosives, that just happens to find himself in feudal Japan... well... it's not really feudal Japan anymore, is it?  On the other hand, if they find a Oni in a cave in a dark forest, that's not going to throw them out of the genre.  That's explicitly PART of the feudal Japanese aesthetic, whether or not an Oni is more "real" that a US soldier is besides the point.

If we are talking about authentic medieval games then they would have neither elves, nor space alien lizard-cat-robots from the future and the Oni in the cave would be a Bear.

If you were going to do a "real" authentic medieval game then it would most likely end up resembling the Disk World novels where every bat shit crazy story is real, the world is flat and God lives on top of Dunmanifestin with all of the other Gods.

I much prefer the monotheistic cleric to a pantheon.  Use devils/demons for opposing cosmic forces and you're set.  While I'm sure there are many DMs I haven't run into that have used pantheons in interesting ways, the only way I've seen it used is a deity buffet at character creation, and it's pretty boring.  Not many DMs have the bandwidth to use one religion in a setting well, let alone a half-dozen or more.

Quote from: Shasarak;1116162If we are talking about authentic medieval games then they would have neither elves, nor space alien lizard-cat-robots from the future and the Oni in the cave would be a Bear.

If you were going to do a "real" authentic medieval game then it would most likely end up resembling the Disk World novels where every bat shit crazy story is real, the world is flat and God lives on top of Dunmanifestin with all of the other Gods.

I... okay, whatever.  I have no idea where to even start here.  You do you bubala.

I haven't run a monotheistic fantasy RPG, but it really surprisingly works well in Fading Suns. The machinations WITHIN the Church become the focus and your worst enemy might beg you to remember your vow to the Pancreator and ask for mercy. It does add LOTS of roleplay drama at the table that I don't find in the same manner with 40k RPGs.

Every human you meet is most likely a Pancreator worshiper, but its the interpretation of the doctrines is where groups splinter and fanatacisim to take hold.

I absolutely love 40k RPGing and that's also Spaaaaaaace Medieval with humanity having only one true God Emperor, but the Fading Suns Pancreator is an invisible omnipotent deity and that universe has less external pressures. In 40k, the God Emperor is a physical being with limited power and the game focus is rarely about the Imperial Church because 40k is so drenched in internal and external active enemies.  

Kinda surprised they didn't do a Fading Suns for 5e.

Quote from: EOTB;1116163While I'm sure there are many DMs I haven't run into that have used pantheons in interesting ways, the only way I've seen it used is a deity buffet at character creation, and it's pretty boring.  Not many DMs have the bandwidth to use one religion in a setting well, let alone a half-dozen or more.

This is where Mazes & Minotaurs greatly shines. The Greek pantheon is both known-ish to most gamers and its simultaneously ordered and chaotic. It's easily accessible as concept. Zeus is Dad, but he cheats on Mom who everybody loves, but the Kids are mostly fucked up nutjobs. So its religion as family drama and because the Greek gods are known for their meddling in human life, you get a pantheon the GM easily can use regularly to interfere and spice up the lives of PCs.

In my OD&D pantheons, I usually limit it to a handful of gods, usually I have a Lawful, a Neutral, a Chaotic, a Demonic and Elemental or Bestial god. But I don't go for "medieval authentic" as a campaign setting. If I wanted to run a medieval D&D campaign, I'd run Dark Albion / Lion & Dragon with Cults of Chaos as an OSR Warhammer. In that realm, I totally agree with RPGPundit on the value of monotheism.

Quote from: Jaeger;1116161This.

Thanks!  


 

Quote from: Jaeger;1116161This IMHO is a legacy of "D&D fantasy role playing" becoming more and more self-referential over time.

The further away it has gotten from it's literary roots, and as it also seems the less people in the hobby in general read actual histories and the original myths; the connection to verisimilitude within the fantasy genre becomes less and less.

Yes indeed. 100% agree.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1116168This is where Mazes & Minotaurs greatly shines. The Greek pantheon is both known-ish to most gamers and its simultaneously ordered and chaotic. It's easily accessible as concept. Zeus is Dad, but he cheats on Mom who everybody loves, but the Kids are mostly fucked up nutjobs. So its religion as family drama and because the Greek gods are known for their meddling in human life, you get a pantheon the GM easily can use regularly to interfere and spice up the lives of PCs.

In my OD&D pantheons, I usually limit it to a handful of gods, usually I have a Lawful, a Neutral, a Chaotic, a Demonic and Elemental or Bestial god. But I don't go for "medieval authentic" as a campaign setting. If I wanted to run a medieval D&D campaign, I'd run Dark Albion / Lion & Dragon with Cults of Chaos as an OSR Warhammer. In that realm, I totally agree with RPGPundit on the value of monotheism.

Thanks for the recommend.

Quote from: Brendan;1116167I... okay, whatever.  I have no idea where to even start here.  You do you bubala.

You too marmaduke.

Quote from: Shasarak;1116185You too marmaduke.

*headesk*  Off topic but bubala is an actual word.  It's the Yiddish equivalent of calling someone "dear" or "baby".

Quote from: Brendan;1116200*headesk*  Off topic but bubala is an actual word.  It's the Yiddish equivalent of calling someone "dear" or "baby".

Why would you call me "Baby"?  Maybe you should stop headesking.

Quote from: Jaeger;1116161This.

"As if the folklore and legends are real" is not an arbitrary restriction.

It's plain to see that a real grasp of how religions actually work and history is sorely lacking in this thread.

Exactly, including period correct myth and magic is far removed from fantasy magic with fireballs and lightning bolts. It is clear some of the posters dismissing the term "medieval authentic" either have not looked at the games Pundit coined the term for, or they are just being contrary for the lols.

Quote from: estar;1116139Overall the effect I feel is similar to how religious conflicts in medieval europe played out but with a different spin on it without a monotheistic god but there are monotheistic ideas that each espouses that their way is the one true way.

Very interesting.  Yeah, I think that certainly qualifies, down to many historical parallels.  

Quote from: Toadmaster;1116240Exactly, including period correct myth and magic is far removed from fantasy magic with fireballs and lightning bolts. It is clear some of the posters dismissing the term "medieval authentic" either have not looked at the games Pundit coined the term for, or they are just being contrary for the lols.

For sure.  Personally, I suspect it's a little of both.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1115921Additionally, I also don't think that D&D or most fantasy worlds people incorrectly label as "Medieval Fantasy" are truly "medieval" in the strictest sense, but more of a hodgepodge of different eras and mythologies.

Yes, exactly. But people THINK they've played "medieval fantasy".

Quote from: Spinachcat;1115973I like squabbling pantheons too much to ever use monotheism in a fantasy game.

Monotheism works well in Fading Suns because you have all the religious factions, cults and heretics. The Pancreator (the one true god in Fading Suns) is open to constant re-interpretation and every time the main church turns around, some backwater planet is getting the doctrine wrong and winds up with some crazy ass heresy.

Much like 40k and the God Emperor of Mankind.

The middle ages is full of crazy heresies and schisms.

Quote from: Chris24601;1116019The big issue with using monotheism in fantasy is if spell casting is in any way tied to faithfulness to it then you've got no doubts about who is in the right. There's no Roman/Orthodox split because whichever one is wrong no longer gets spells from their prayers. There's only one of Judaism, Christianity and Islam because one of those has it right and can work spells (or none of those are right and some other religion can prove its right via spells.

Not necessarily. For example, Schismatics are different from Heretics. So in Lion & Dragon, it would theoretically be the case that both the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox would have clerics receiving miracles.
In theory, other religions could use magic in place of miracle; while others (witchcraft or heresy) could have demonic powers simulating what appear to be miracles.

Of course, you could also take a Universalist or Semi-Universalist route. But that's a bit of a cop-out for medieval-authentic gaming since that concept was not part of the paradigm until the late renaissance.

Quote from: Brendan;1116050Functionally the role of Saints in Catholicism isn't that different from the role of specific gods in paganism.  

No, that's where you're wrong. Gods and Saints are two very different things. In some religions (like Hinduism) you even have both. Catholic saints are not treated like gods. They are, if anything, more similar to the role played by guardian spirits in some pagan faiths.

QuoteEuropean paganism did not have a co-equal view of the various gods.  They broadly recognized that there was a single GOD, with many lessor "gods" and associated figures.  

This isn't quite accurate either. Any movement toward the idea of recognizing an over-arching or principal god (in any sense other than the "father god", ie Odin or Jupiter, which is not the same thing) only started entering pagan thought after interactions with Christianity (or in some cases, Judaism or Islam) and can largely be attributed as a response to what appeared to in some ways be a more intellectually sophisticated faith. The idea of an overarching single deity DOES appear in religion in other civilizations (India- Brahma, China - Shang De), but not in Europe (at least, not by itself and not until very late in the lifespan of paganism).

QuoteI enjoyed Pundit's video, but I think a big caveat - which he makes repeatedly but seems to be missed by many, is that IF you want to play medieval authentic, THEN you need a monotheism.  Obviously, you don't have to play D&D this way.  

Obviously. However, as I pointed out in an earlier video, D&D "paganism" gets everything wrong about Polytheism too, and people have never done that right either.