Quote from: sureshot;1105878Instead with Paizo in 2E everyone has to get along and if what is being said earlier in the thread apparently all the Iconic characters are supposed to be all bisexual.

That is just because of Valeros.  Everyone wants to have sex with Valeros.

Quote from: Omega;1105883But not all bandits were bad/evil.

They kind of were. Being that they engaged in banditry.

That's like saying that not all serial killers are bad guys.

Its very simple. Every dollar you spend is a vote, so vote for what you want and vote against what you do not want.

If you like woke bullshit shoved into your hobby, keep giving money to WotC, Paizo, Monte Cook and the others.

If you don't enjoy gobbling down the wokeness, then spend your money elsewhere.

We live in the Golden Age of RPGs. Nobody needs to buy anything from WotC, Paizo, Monte Cook or any of the woke clowns. There are literally hundreds of RPGs for you to choose from on DriveThruRPG, Amazon, Lulu and beyond.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1105889They kind of were. Being that they engaged in banditry.

That's like saying that not all serial killers are bad guys.

Robin Hood.

Quote from: sureshot;1105878The thing is I don't mind seeing more diversity and inclusivity in rpgs..

I haven't seen much evidence that wokeness and inclusivity have much to do with one another. The most inclusive game would be one that's easy to run and fun to play. That will attract the largest and most diverse audience possible. It doesn't matter how few straight white males you show in your art if your game is overly complex and tedious.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1105907Its very simple. Every dollar you spend is a vote, so vote for what you want and vote against what you do not want.

If you like woke bullshit shoved into your hobby, keep giving money to WotC, Paizo, Monte Cook and the others.

If you don't enjoy gobbling down the wokeness, then spend your money elsewhere.

This isn't politics. These are games. There are no laws of RPGs that everyone has to obey. Thus, there can be both woke games and non-woke games, and people can play both.

If you don't like to play a game, don't buy it.

But having games "shoved into the hobby" isn't an intrusion into territory that should rightfully only be for one set of politics. It's pointless and stupid to try to prevent games you don't like from being shoved into the hobby.

Quote from: jhkim;1105968This isn't politics. These are games. There are no laws of RPGs that everyone has to obey. Thus, there can be both woke games and non-woke games, and people can play both.

If you don't like to play a game, don't buy it.

But having games "shoved into the hobby" isn't an intrusion into territory that should rightfully only be for one set of politics. It's pointless and stupid to try to prevent games you don't like from being shoved into the hobby.

I actually agree with the idea that both woke and non-woke games should be allowed in the hobby and the marketplace.

However, I disagree with the assumption that non-woke games are automatically racist/sexist/homophobic/whatever negative you want to apply.

Quote from: jeff37923;1105969I actually agree with the idea that both woke and non-woke games should be allowed in the hobby and the marketplace.

However, I disagree with the assumption that non-woke games are automatically racist/sexist/homophobic/whatever negative you want to apply.

Fair enough. I'd agree with that.

Quote from: jhkim;1105968This isn't politics. These are games.

Thanks to SJWs, everything is political now. Everything is a battlefield in the culture war.

Gamergate anyone?

RPGing should NEVER have become a political or cultural battlefield, but that's where we are now.

So everyone has the choice. If you like the RPG hobby being a SJW shitshow, keep giving your cash to WotC, Paizo, Monte Cook, etc. If you don't want our hobby being a doubleplusgoodthink shitshow, then don't give a dime to any woke publisher.

There's no middle ground. You can't oppose the spread of SJW ideology while giving SJWs your hard earned money. We live in capitalism where every dollar is a vote. If anyone gives woke publishers their money, they are affirming their support for the publisher's political agenda. Any "silent dissent" is meaningless compared to their votes with their dollars.

Quote from: jhkim;1105968It's pointless and stupid to try to prevent games you don't like from being shoved into the hobby.

It's not preventing games from being sold or played, its pushing back against the politics shoved into the games by voting with your dollars and your time for companies who don't shove politics into their games.

Unlike your leftist comrades, I support anyone publishing anything they like. However, people who oppose SJW ideology can't give their cash to WotC, Paizo and Monte Cook and then be surprised when those companies shove more SJW politics into their products.  Unlike the tiny garage publishers, these are companies with business expenses who are susceptible to lost revenue.

Quote from: Mistwell;1105790So if the social justice stuff that's in the product is stuff I just won't use, I treat it like any other content I won't use.  If it's too much of the book I just won't buy it because the utility of the book is not enough to match the price of that book. It's as simple as that. But I am not making my decisions because content "offends" me.

Silent dissent is the same as silent agreement.

If you love a restaurant and have been eating breakfast there for decades, but they now wipe their ass with the toast before serving it, you can keep going there and enjoy the rest of your meal while scooting the poop loaf to the side of the plate. You can keep hoping that they don't jam your bacon and potatoes up their ass next. I guess you could just scoot those bits aside and happily eat your eggs, but why don't you just eat at another restaurant who doesn't shit up your meal?

Its bizarre how the RPG hobby has many hundreds of games to play, yet gamers keep making believe they only have a handful of choices, or just one. Let's not even pretend that WotC, Paizo and Monte Cook are producing work that's so spectacularly better than other publishers that we have no choice than eat around the shit toast.

But its a free country and everybody has the right to vote with their dollars. I'm just saying everybody needs to be conscious and aware of what they are doing with their dollars. Dollars and politics don't exist in a vacuum. Cause and effect is very present.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1105986Its bizarre how the RPG hobby has many hundreds of games to play, yet gamers keep making believe they only have a handful of choices, or just one. Let's not even pretend that WotC, Paizo and Monte Cook are producing work that's so spectacularly better than other publishers that we have no choice than eat around the shit toast.

But its a free country and everybody has the right to vote with their dollars. I'm just saying everybody needs to be conscious and aware of what they are doing with their dollars. Dollars and politics don't exist in a vacuum. Cause and effect is very present.

All this talk about buying books reminded me that I had not ordered the latest Paizo Age of Ashes adventure Tomorrow Must Burn.

Thanks for the reminder.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1105984It's not preventing games from being sold or played, its pushing back against the politics shoved into the games by voting with your dollars and your time for companies who don't shove politics into their games.

Unlike your leftist comrades, I support anyone publishing anything they like. However, people who oppose SJW ideology can't give their cash to WotC, Paizo and Monte Cook and then be surprised when those companies shove more SJW politics into their products.  Unlike the tiny garage publishers, these are companies with business expenses who are susceptible to lost revenue.

So, as a genuine question, do you feel that RPG purchases affects wider politics? i.e. If you could organize a successful boycott against Paizo over SJW something, do you feel you would have struck a blow against the wider political/cultural movement of SJWism?

Personally, I don't feel that RPG publishing has any significant influence on the wider political/cultural movement. I think mass-market entertainment does have influence - especially movies and television for kids. So I will think a little about giving money to a movie or show that I think is a negative influence.

But RPGs are too DIY and niche to have any impact. For example, I have friends who make gaming publications where they hope that by creating and selling the RPG product, they'll make a difference for some cause. Even if I agree with the cause, I don't think that RPG products are a useful vector for political change. Overwhelmingly, anyone who buys the product is already sold on the cause -- and in the few cases that they aren't, I'm doubtful how much impact the product has.

Quote from: jhkim;1105992So, as a genuine question, do you feel that RPG purchases affects wider politics? i.e. If you could organize a successful boycott against Paizo over SJW something, do you feel you would have struck a blow against the wider political/cultural movement of SJWism?

Personally, I don't feel that RPG publishing has any significant influence on the wider political/cultural movement. I think mass-market entertainment does have influence - especially movies and television for kids. So I will think a little about giving money to a movie or show that I think is a negative influence.

But RPGs are too DIY and niche to have any impact. For example, I have friends who make gaming publications where they hope that by creating and selling the RPG product, they'll make a difference for some cause. Even if I agree with the cause, I don't think that RPG products are a useful vector for political change. Overwhelmingly, anyone who buys the product is already sold on the cause -- and in the few cases that they aren't, I'm doubtful how much impact the product has.

So, then is all this new found wokeness in RPGs merely a marketting ploy? Like how a metric butt ton of products are advertised as being recycled and environmentally friendly in order to sell more units?

Quote from: Shasarak;1105990Thanks for the reminder.

You're welcome!

Everyone who wants more Paizo politics in their Paizo products absolutely needs to give more money to Paizo. Otherwise, Paizo won't know how well received their efforts to shove politics into gaming has been! Talk on the internet is bullshit. Cash money is the support that matters.

You won't get more SJW bullshit shoved into our hobby without regularly supporting it with your purchases. If you're lucky, Paizo will be so happy with their sales numbers, they'll double down on their efforts!

Quote from: jhkim;1105992So, as a genuine question, do you feel that RPG purchases affects wider politics? i.e. If you could organize a successful boycott against Paizo over SJW something, do you feel you would have struck a blow against the wider political/cultural movement of SJWism?

If 100 million other people are going to vote in 2020, why does it matter if you vote too?

Does your action have a minor effect on the greater world? Or are your actions meaningless even in the short game, let alone in the grand scheme of the vast universe? And when you make a purchase, do you care where the money goes?

I can't answer that for anyone but myself.

In an arena as small as the RPG hobby, I believe the actions of each hobbyist does matter. Especially the actions of a GM.

When a GM decides to run RPG X instead of RPG Y, they set the purchase focus for that table of players. AKA, when I run Classic Traveller instead of Paizo's Starfinder, my players are more likely to buy Classic Traveller products to use in my campaign. Moreoever, if they enjoy my campaign, they too might become Classic Traveller GMs, thus spreading the preference for one publisher vs. another.  

Now that everything is a culture war battlefield, every financial choice becomes a political and cultural vote, whether or not people are conscious of where their money is going.

Quote from: jhkim;1105992But RPGs are too DIY and niche to have any impact. For example, I have friends who make gaming publications where they hope that by creating and selling the RPG product, they'll make a difference for some cause. Even if I agree with the cause, I don't think that RPG products are a useful vector for political change. Overwhelmingly, anyone who buys the product is already sold on the cause -- and in the few cases that they aren't, I'm doubtful how much impact the product has.

I believe every pebble ripples the pond, but I'm well aware we're talking about pebbles, not asteroids.

However, RPGs aren't niche anymore. The actual playing of tabletop RPGs is very niche, but the concepts of RPGing has become mainstream throughout video game culture and entertainment media. I do not know how far the ripples from our tiny pond go.

I don't view RPGs as a useful vector for political change, but I also don't know what vector will catch fire and become the one that inflames political change. I never imagined silly memes by online amateurs would become as influential as they have, becoming a key form of political communication in ways professional political cartoonists rarely achieved.

As for my efforts, here's what I know for sure. I pick up trash at public beaches, not because I am going to start a mass movement of trash pickers, but because I've noted that people are somewhat less likely to litter on clean beaches...thus magnifying my very minor efforts.

If PF goes broke, it will likely be from a variety of reasons. I never followed the drama behind the scenes (at forums and other places), so that part didn't really matter to me.

I got turned off because I'm just not interested in a 2E product. And on the pending 2E release the few 1E groups available here seemingly completely collapsed - but no 2E groups appeared to take their place.

So here (in a greater area of over 5m people) there are more available (A/B)D&D, Vampire, and Star Wars (d6) games then PF2E. If that happens to at least somewhat match the greater taste of RPGer's, I'm twice happy I didn't buy into that brand of fool's gold.