Quote from: Rhedyn;1105772The vast majority of RPGs are financial disasters and almost no one can maintain a multi-developer business off the money they make.

I doubt even 5e D&D makes more money than the brand does.

Do you know of any publicly available supporting evidence for this? I don't disbelieve you, I just like to be able to see relevant data where possible.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1105777Or, as some have pointed elsewhere, it's the other way around, first they Go Broke and then they (in desperation) Go Woke, in a vain attempt to make up for their loss in sales.

I suspect that's correct. If Paizo does go under, it will be the popularity of D&D 5e and a lack of enthusiasm for PF2e that does them in. The ostentatious wokeness is a desperate attempt to distinguish their brand from D&D. Which is not to say that they aren't also true believers.

Or Paizo will go back to publishing OGL content like they did prior to the release of Pathfinder. Golarion started out as a campaign setting for 3.5, so it stands to reason that Paizo will revamp it for 5e.

Quote from: Lychee of the Exchequer;1105769Is "Get Woke Go Broke" a reality on the RPG scene?

I mean, while it's impossible to say for sure, I largely suspect it's mostly a non-issue as far as the success of any given RPG product. General media such as television and film seem to be where Get Woke Go Broke tends to rear its head, partly just because the financial stakes are so much higher and there is MUCH broader public visibility with those industries. With RPGs I get the sense that companies or publishers go "Woke" in an attempt to avoid potential future lost sales or negative press. How well that works I don't know but my thinking is that it's more of a "seatbelt" situation i.e. preventative precaution than actually attempting to recoup business losses.

It's a complex landscape though, and what's true for one product may not align at all with another. Context is important, as is the culture surrounding any given product/piece of content.

Edit: As far as PF2e specifically? I think it's more an issue with keeping fans of the game on board in general. People who liked 1e and its crunch seem unlikely to re-buy into 2e, particularly to re-purchase products they already have. If it ain't broke, don't fix it and all that. PF2e seemed like a solid opportunity to grab NEW players, but given the success of D&D 5th in that regard PF2e's timing sort of relegates it to meandering around in the shadow of the titan, to my eyes.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1105795Do you know of any publicly available supporting evidence for this? I don't disbelieve you, I just like to be able to see relevant data where possible.

Stars Without Number Revised Edition (paid version) is the 2nd best selling product on DrivethruRPG (right behind the Cyberpunk jumpstart that only recently got the top spot).

Kevin Crawford number admissions would mean that SWN has maybe cleared 10,000 sales since Kevin last talked about it. Not bad for Kevin, but an abysmal marker for the "not industry" that is RPGs.

The axiom holds true, an RPG book that sells over a 1000 copies is a wild success.

Meanwhile the 5e PH has sold something like a million copies or more.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1105802Stars Without Number Revised Edition (paid version) is the 2nd best selling product on DrivethruRPG (right behind the Cyberpunk jumpstart that only recently got the top spot).

Kevin Crawford number admissions would mean that SWN has maybe cleared 10,000 sales since Kevin last talked about it. Not bad for Kevin, but an abysmal marker for the "not industry" that is RPGs.

The axiom holds true, an RPG book that sells over a 1000 copies is a wild success.

Meanwhile the 5e PH has sold something like a million copies or more.

Which makes my point...

Outside of WotC - the industry is SO small that most non-WotC RPG products can stay Woke-as-Fuck and keep going with very little effort comparatively.

A company has every right to make an about face, abandon their previous revenue stream, and march off into a gay pride parade.  To do so is foolish, but they have the right to do so.  Their customers also have the right to make an about face, and take their money elsewhere.  See how that works?

Quote from: Razor 007;1105809A company has every right to make an about face, abandon their previous revenue stream, and march off into a gay pride parade.  To do so is foolish, but they have the right to do so.  Their customers also have the right to make an about face, and take their money elsewhere.  See how that works?

Yep.

That's why I don't worry about it too much in terms of people making choices. Where I balk is when the brigading starts because your game of choice doesn't meet some Purity Test by their standards then the creators get vilified and the usual Outrage cycle begins.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1105798I suspect that's correct. If Paizo does go under, it will be the popularity of D&D 5e and a lack of enthusiasm for PF2e that does them in. The ostentatious wokeness is a desperate attempt to distinguish their brand from D&D. Which is not to say that they aren't also true believers.

Considering that WotC has been accused of being 'too woke', and they seem to be doing well financially at the moment, clearly it isn't the promotion of liberal ideals which drives (most) business away.  If the dollars are flowing between two 'woke' companies, it isn't the 'woke' part that is driving one to bankruptcy but rather some combination of the differences between them.

Quote from: Lychee of the Exchequer;1105769I'd like to know the point of view of forum members on this one.

Speaking from personal experience, the social justice turn of some publishers in the hobby has had an effect on my buying habits - and it may continue to do so.

Some ten years ago, I discovered Pathfinder, and it rekindled my fondness for medieval fantasy roleplaying. I went to the Paizo forums and I was happy to find there a genial spirit, and some like-minded individuals with whom to trade RPG gossip and experiences. I talked fondly about Pathfinder to my close gaming buddies, and our group of 7-8 people went to buy the Pathfinder core books and some supplements ; I bought something like a dozen books, and the most ardent purchaser among us bought something like 40 books.

We had a good time playing with those books for years, and I had a great time chatting with strangers, semi-strangers and regulars on the Paizo forums.

This matches my own experience, though it seemed to me the initial change occurred in 2012 during the Obama re-election campaign, it got worse over time. I drifted off the Paizo boards (edit) - checking my message archive there, looks like I stopped posting to general discussion in mid 2014, with periodic returns to the AP forums every year or so since, typically for about a month.

Certainly I had bought a shelfload of Pathfinder stuff until Paizo's Wokeness drove me off, and WoTC material has got to the point where I'm feeling wary of them too, but I don't know how many like me there are, or how much it affects their profits. Maybe most Wale purchasers are Woke, or don't care.

Going back over old messages, looks like this 2014 thread was when I started drifting away from Paizo, yet it all seems so reasonable and moderate compared to the insanity of recent years! It was actually possible to discuss the appearance of female NPCs! :eek:

It's sad to see companies racing to see who can fall on their own sword first.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105814Considering that WotC has been accused of being 'too woke', and they seem to be doing well financially at the moment, clearly it isn't the promotion of liberal ideals which drives (most) business away.  If the dollars are flowing between two 'woke' companies, it isn't the 'woke' part that is driving one to bankruptcy but rather some combination of the differences between them.

Considering the rate and quality of 5e supplements, I doubt WotC is making much new money off of D&D RPG product. Oh sure the core books sell but Hasbro doesn't need Mike Mearls or Jeremy Crawford to reprint and sell those.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1105777Or, as some have pointed elsewhere, it's the other way around, first they Go Broke and then they (in desperation) Go Woke, in a vain attempt to make up for their loss in sales. See the current developments about Disney cooking the books for years and their very recent going Woke.

It could be either way and I guess we'll never know.

Its more a factor of someone in marketing or elsewhere in a company infiltrating and then suggesting that going woke is the next big business boom. Theres millions to be made off all the women and gays and blacks! And that the best way to do that is to utterly 100% alienate a chunk of your customer base while pandering to a new customer base that STILL wont buy because a chunk of them despise being pandered to and despise all the virtue signalling.

But by then its too late. The company is either thoroughly infested with these cultists. And/Or the company has sunk alot of cash into rebranding. And/Or the company has murdered its original customer base.

Its the exact same with edition treadmilling an the damn 5 year plan. Unless you do it right then every time you fraction your customer base and are likely not making back up that loss.

Quote from: S'mon;1105832Going back over old messages, looks like this 2014 thread was when I started drifting away from Paizo, yet it all seems so reasonable and moderate compared to the insanity of recent years! It was actually possible to discuss the appearance of female NPCs! :eek:

Holy crap. I skimmed the thread. It was a generally nice back & forth - and then suddenly Jessica Price jumped in an started calling everyone bigots. Bwah!?

But it should not surprise me. She's what started my own drift from those boards. She had me temporarily banned on a thread about orcs=colonialism=guilt for pointing out that orc depictions pretty obviously had much more in common with Germanic tribes relative to the Romans and sarcastically made a comment about how I should be offended since I'm largely German.