Quote from: jhkim;1100411As far as whether to respond about progressive opinions in gaming -- I don't mind it, but can we try to keep it more in Pundit's forum? I know that Pundit is allowing more of such discussion here in the RPG forum lately as moderator, but I feel like it threatens to drown out more practical gaming talk.

To my mind, the real problem is echo chambers -- which are encouraged by social media, and create a lot more partisanship and outrage.

If it doesn't interest you, just put on your big boy pants and ignore the topic. All you haves to do is keeps scrolling by.

Quote from: S'mon;1100492One of Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" is to always hold the enemy to their own principles. So Alinskyites will appeal to the Constitution or to male chivalry if they think it will serve their ends, without themselves believing a word of it. Basically what DeadDM is doing above.

I'm sorry - are you saying that if someone claims certain principles but acts against them, pointing out that they are not acting in accordance with the principles they claim to possess makes me a radical?  

I myself hold a number of principles very dearly and it includes that all people are inherently equally deserving of dignity and respect despite differences between individuals in any category of performance.  I don't care if you're faster, stronger, smarter, better-looking, richer and more charismatic than another individual - you are both human beings and deserve the respect and consideration of that fact.  When we, as a society, treat individuals harshly and dehumanize them (as the president has been doing to political asylum seekers of late), I object because it contradicts my principles.  Pointing out that it contradicts the principles on which America was founded can't be objected to - that's claiming that doing what we know is hard IS HARD and we don't want to do it.  Well, frankly, that's not good enough.  

I'd say that if you don't love the principles that we have enshrined at the center of our political structures, you should leave.  I'm all about creating a more perfect union.  That starts with a commitment to our highest ideals and putting them into practice.  I think that's where the United States has frequently stumbled; we sometimes forget what is right and just and delude ourselves into believing that what is convenient must be right.  

If you believe something but it becomes inconvenient, if you truly believe it, you'll stand by your principles.  If you don't, you never had those principles to begin with.

Quote from: trechriron;1100308It gives those of us who actually fight for social justice a bad rap.

Fuck "social" justice.  Actual justice is worth fighting for and there's no need to water it down with weasel words and extraneous detail.

Quote from: FickleGM;1100400I will forego the rant brewing in my head, but boy have I grown to hate the word "problematic" and have come to equate it with the act of trying to remove something that I enjoy (usually as a foil or a challenge to be overcome) from the games I play or other media I digest.

"Problematic" really means "morally reprehensible." But the people who use the word are wary of openly expressing an outlook that's associated with social conservatives. So they use a euphemism instead.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100535I'd say that if you don't love the principles that we have enshrined at the center of our political structures, you should leave.  

Whereas I would say that principles should serve the people, not people the principles.

[video=youtube;GG0mm4-7TgU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG0mm4-7TgU[/youtube]

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100535If you believe something but it becomes inconvenient, if you truly believe it, you'll stand by your principles.  If you don't, you never had those principles to begin with.

In another thread on this site, your heart bleeds about the plight of drug addicted homeless in Los Angelas. You live in Knoxville. If you truly believed in the plight of the homeless in your home town, why haven't I ever seen you out feeding them on Wednesday nights?

Could it be that you are a hypocrite?

(And no, none of this has anything to do with TTRPGs but it would be nice if these SJWs would Shut The Fuck Up and Go Play!)

Quote from: S'mon;1100493That is certainly true. I see it much less with US Southerners though (the ones not under Yankee mind contol) - they have an awareness their culture is somewhat different from the dominant US culture, and so they are comfier with the idea that cultures differ. Mainstream Anglo-Americans often seem to really struggle with the fact that they come from a particular culture and refuse to accept there are varying cultures. Like the American woman I knew who kept insisting that Yorkshiremen were horribly sexist because they called her 'love'. I pointed out they also called me 'love', but nothing seemed to register.

Yes, that is certainly true about the Southern states (esp Texas). I kind of felt the same way being originally from Oregon. Although not a southern state, we've been flooded with smiling people from California, and now Californians make up almost 20% of the state. You an easily guess the one city they all flock to as well.

At times I really want to take out my +5 Axe of the Lumberjack Lords, let loose the Rabid Beavers of War and burn down the SAD lamp factories that sustain their evil presence.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100535I myself hold a number of principles very dearly and it includes that all people are inherently equally deserving of dignity and respect despite differences between individuals in any category of performance.  I don't care if you're faster, stronger, smarter, better-looking, richer and more charismatic than another individual - you are both human beings and deserve the respect and consideration of that fact.

Without any distinction? This is where the Pathological Post-Modern viewpoint breaks down usually. So *everyone* is entitled to these views from you, without distinction? So I'm clear. Or do you want nuance that a bit? What about assholes? Or people you think are assholes? See below....

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100535When we, as a society, treat individuals harshly and dehumanize them (as the president has been doing to political asylum seekers of late), I object because it contradicts my principles.  Pointing out that it contradicts the principles on which America was founded can't be objected to - that's claiming that doing what we know is hard IS HARD and we don't want to do it.  Well, frankly, that's not good enough.

There it is. You conflated *your* principles, without distinction, to include *everyone* in the plurality. Worse, you dropped the distinction that Trump himself has made many times about this idea - 1) people coming over the border illegally for political asylum only make up 30% of the illegal migrants. Of that 30% - only 5k of the over 100k asylum seekers are from South/Central America, and the method they go about trying to use Asylum Laws as recognized by NATO and the UN - is unlawful. As most of them are not from Mexico specifically. 2) Whether you like Trump or not is irrelevant to the claims you're making about undistinguished dignity and respect - because the people he was targetting his language at were the criminal element. That people decided to take their Trump-hatred and conflate it to mean everyone from Mexico despite the many examples of him saying otherwise, is disingenuous. They *are* coming over the border. They *are* killing people. They *are* raping women and using children for their own illegal purposes. People *are* suffering unnecessarily at our expense for Cartel's coffers. You can have your "principles" but you need to accept the cost - then we can have a discussion.

Because by your own standards you're also not giving Trump any benefit of the doubt, or "dignity or respect". But you think he's an asshole and despite anything he says, you've presumed to know what's in his heart and mind. (I think he's an asshole too. But I'm okay with his policies). But here it sounds like your "principles" are demanding some nuance.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100535I'd say that if you don't love the principles that we have enshrined at the center of our political structures, you should leave.  I'm all about creating a more perfect union.  That starts with a commitment to our highest ideals and putting them into practice.  I think that's where the United States has frequently stumbled; we sometimes forget what is right and just and delude ourselves into believing that what is convenient must be right.

No. YOU have enshrined at the heart of your mind. Not WE. We have rules and laws and not all of them are good. But if we can't look honestly at the outcomes of our rules and laws without people conflating emotional handwringing to equate to "principles", then we're setting ourselves up for failure. The Union doesn't include people not in the Union. What is "right" doesn't mean it comes at the price of what "is Just" - and vice-versa. That's why we have Laws. To regulate that ebb-and-flow. You want to talk about convenience? You're living that right now, by having the ability to even have this discussion on *this* forum.

Those that typically believe as you do, (and kudos to you for at least being here to make the attempt) exist in censorious echo-chambers where this kind of discussion is impossible. Whose principles are in operation now? Whose principles are allowing for what is "right and just" vs. what is prescribed by force? You can't have it both ways.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100535If you believe something but it becomes inconvenient, if you truly believe it, you'll stand by your principles.  If you don't, you never had those principles to begin with.

Then go to TBP and tell them all about it. See how far it gets you.

Quote from: S'mon;1100316What social justice do you fight for? ...

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1100315Social Justice = Racial, gender, etc "justice"

The term was coined by them, we use it to mack them because they deserve mockery, it's not like you couldn't call yourself an advocate.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1100317I dislike Social Justice in the intended sense. I think adding identity politics to justice leads to the injustice and secular-religious tribalism we saw at Evergreen College, and in what we call SJWs in general. ...

Quote from: Snowman0147;1100327Social Justice is mind rot that creates only harm, chaos, and mocks the ideal that justice stands for.  It is poison to the fools that believe in it as it creates thousands if not millions of brainwash cultists that will use violence on innocent people if there is a whiff of disagreement.  The very idea of social justice must die and be remembered for the toxic ideology that it truly is.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1100365"Social Justice" was a weasel phrase when it was first coined.*  Adding "warriors" to the end, especially in the context of people playing games, takes it from weasel phrase to something deserving nothing but mockery. ...

Quote from: Omega;1100412...

The truth of the matter is. You are not a social justice warrior. You are a normal concerned human being.

Quote from: Haffrung;1100417SJW is a pejorative. ... Their fallback is always moralistic, in the same way the beliefs of religious conservatives are.

Thoughtful and passionate responses. Just as I have an issue identifying as a Christian because I don't appreciate common prevailing behaviors... I probably should have an issue identifying as a SJW for the same reasons.

Instead, I will call myself a Justice and Equality Advocate. I don't need to go to war. I will lead by example while respecting and appreciating all the other human beings around me.

Quote from: JRT;1100403Eh, I still agree with Kyle and S'mon, not stoking the fires is the best way to handle it.

The one danger is to become a zealot yourself against the other zealots.  That's the key thing to avoid.

"He who fights monsters should beware that he himself does not become a monster. For when you gaze into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you."

I love the internet, and yet I wonder about all the abyssal gazing it has brought forth.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100535I'd say that if you don't love the principles that we have enshrined at the center of our political structures, you should leave.

Sounds great!! I agree with you we need to deport liberals trying to piss on the 2nd Amendment and any socialists like Bernie and Pocahantas as capitalism is a central structure of our country.

As for illegal aliens, one of our enshrined principles is immigrants need to enter legally, and when they enter legally and work to assimilate as fellow Americans, they are welcomed.

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1100646I love the internet, and yet I wonder about all the abyssal gazing it has brought forth.

Your quote gives you the answer.

Quote from: trechriron;1100577I will lead by example while respecting and appreciating all the other human beings around me.

That's some killer nyborg you are snorting!

Other people might need to be tolerated, but few are worth respect and appreciation, except in the most basic legal sense.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100068I think games are more interesting when every monster has at least the slightest possible chance of being redeemed.  

HUMANS are the ones who are supposed to have a slight chance of being redeemed.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1100123How can you explain that African witch doctors could throw lightning from their fingers before they were colonized huh!?

Checkmate shitlords!

Edited to add video.

Please refrain from posting off-topic political material. If you're talking about "colonialism" in the context of the hobby, it's on-topic. As soon as you jump out of that, it's not.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1100161We're talking about the same people who proudly proclaim that Mathematics is racist. With a straight face! So, nothing surprises me anymore. "Educate" (indoctrinate) a fool and all you make is a dangerous fool.

Refrain from talking about general political subjects. Stay on the specific topic of gaming.

From here on, people who post off-topic general politics will be sanctioned.