Quote from: Lynn;1092756This makes me wonder if anyone has incorporated accentuated appearance into their game cultures. Skin lightening is a good example.  For example, 'ear molds' for elves that want their ears to grow a certain way.

In Shadowrun, I have humans with fetishes, especially for elves. There are street docs who cater to elites who want to "go goblin" and change their appearance.  It's akin to those Elvis & Marilyn Monroe gangers.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092628Anti-miscegenation laws ARE racist, but you are conflating caste with race or ethnicity.

Not necessarily racist. It may be just a desire to keep what makes your culture undiluted as it were. Or worse.

It may even be a resistance to forced mixing as part of a pogrom to subsume or erase your race and culture. Having your ethnicity, and possibly your culture, effectively bred out of existence.

It may also be well intentioned. Put it place to try and "save" some race or culture. But invariably it gets out of hand and sooner or later someone, or lots of someones will use it as a racist bid for segregation. If it was not that from the get-go.

All of these elements can make for interesting cultural quirks in a RPG setting. And some have been used before. The backstory for Thunder Rift has some elements of this in the race hatred between dwarves and elves which came to a bloody head when a dwarf and elf had a child together and both sides banded together to kill the whole family. Then were so mortified afterwards at what they had done that it in some ways helped heal the rift between the two races.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1092819In Shadowrun, I have humans with fetishes, especially for elves. There are street docs who cater to elites who want to "go goblin" and change their appearance.  It's akin to those Elvis & Marilyn Monroe gangers.

That is actually a thing in the Shadowrun setting. Theres mention of bodymodding to appear as elves in the books and pretty sure a few NPCs are noted as having had bodymods to appear as some other race.

Quote from: Omega;1092832That is actually a thing in the Shadowrun setting. Theres mention of bodymodding to appear as elves in the books and pretty sure a few NPCs are noted as having had bodymods to appear as some other race.

Agreed. I just include that very regularly, especially to piss off Elf PCs who get accused of being posers.

I feel bodymods would be extremely common, like tattoos today.

And with the fantastical being reality in SR, people would fetishize being non-human so you'd see people with angel wings, devil horns, cloven hoofs, cat ears, full fluffy kitten conversions, etc.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1092852Agreed. I just include that very regularly, especially to piss off Elf PCs who get accused of being posers.

I feel bodymods would be extremely common, like tattoos today.

And with the fantastical being reality in SR, people would fetishize being non-human so you'd see people with angel wings, devil horns, cloven hoofs, cat ears, full fluffy kitten conversions, etc.

+10 for the neko waifus

Quote from: Omega;1092831Not necessarily racist. It may be just a desire to keep what makes your culture undiluted as it were. Or worse.

It may even be a resistance to forced mixing as part of a pogrom to subsume or erase your race and culture. Having your ethnicity, and possibly your culture, effectively bred out of existence.

It may also be well intentioned. Put it place to try and "save" some race or culture. But invariably it gets out of hand and sooner or later someone, or lots of someones will use it as a racist bid for segregation. If it was not that from the get-go.

IRL yes, racist and tyrannic. Culture isn't preserved by race because it is the original public domain framework of knowledge, which has nothing to do with biology. While some ethnicities have some specific association of members being of a particular race, that does not validate their existence. This is why cultural appropriation is nonsense.

But if your elves and humans don't want to co-mingle, that works out just fine in a fantasy medieval society.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092857+10 for the neko waifus

You know Neko Waifus are going to be a thing!

Also, I expect people will bodymod their pets. AKA, who wants a rainbow kitten? A dog who looks like a bear or dire wolf?

And bodymod cults...oh yeah, entire cults who look identical, the ultimate conformity.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1092852Agreed. I just include that very regularly, especially to piss off Elf PCs who get accused of being posers.

I feel bodymods would be extremely common, like tattoos today.

And with the fantastical being reality in SR, people would fetishize being non-human so you'd see people with angel wings, devil horns, cloven hoofs, cat ears, full fluffy kitten conversions, etc.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092857+10 for the neko waifus

Then add in Changelings and things get really funky. People suddenly expressing animal traits, partial metamorphoses, and other odd things and off you go to even crazier antics from the bodymodders.

Quote from: Lynn;1092870IRL yes, racist and tyrannic.

When your culture is strongly tied to your race, no it isnt racist for them to not want to be diluted or subsumed. They may still interact with other peoples and cultures. They just dont want to be co-opted. Some native americans act that way. As do a few other people.

Quote from: Omega;1092910When your culture is strongly tied to your race, no it isnt racist for them to not want to be diluted or subsumed. They may still interact with other peoples and cultures. They just dont want to be co-opted. Some native americans act that way. As do a few other people.

What part of ANY culture is biological?

Yes, identitarians are gonna act like identitarians. Which is why I hate all the bunch never mind if they call themselves SJWs or some supremacist movement, they all act as if Culture = Race. Sorry but no.

As a mixed race mexican I'm too white for the racists on "the left" and too brown for the racists in "the right". And both act as if my culture had anything to do with my ethnicity.

Quote from: Omega;1092910When your culture is strongly tied to your race, no it isnt racist for them to not want to be diluted or subsumed. They may still interact with other peoples and cultures. They just dont want to be co-opted. Some native americans act that way. As do a few other people.

They are placing the collective 'good' of their culture above the individual liberty of their members, as if that has some superior value over other cultures, and by their own definition race (which is fallacious and scientifically ignorant anyway), then that is the epitome of racism.

Some Native American tribes have some specific requirements for measurement based on blood quantum, but that requirement is in regards to tangible benefits and not necessarily values.

Quote from: Lynn;1092954They are placing the collective 'good' of their culture above the individual liberty of their members, as if that has some superior value over other cultures, and by their own definition race (which is fallacious and scientifically ignorant anyway), then that is the epitome of racism.

Some Native American tribes have some specific requirements for measurement based on blood quantum, but that requirement is in regards to tangible benefits and not necessarily values.

Depends. Not all cultures are equal - first and foremost. You need context. And just because you value your culture over another's doesn't mean that is necessarily racist at all. Bigotted? Maybe. Prejudiced? Probably. The Culture defines the mores of its constituents which can be comprised of *anything* with one sole understanding: the constituents have to agree in the social contract of being a member of that culture. That's it.

If your culture accepts anyone that shares in the values of that culture, race becomes *far* less of an issue. High-trust societies are capable of incredible feats that smaller or larger cultures that are low-trust, simply cannot begin to deal with. It also matters in the form of the governance of those cultures, based on its inherent values. So a culture that does value the rights of the individual *ideally* should be stronger as a collective. The problem is when the individuals within that culture form stronger sub-cultures based around other immutable characteristics rather than such ideals. This is *precisely* how you dismantle such societies.

While it's true that racial demographics are *large* part of a culture, it is categorically untrue that ALL cultures are simply based on race. But it does stand that the least tolerant of cultures are often the strongest in the short term. Case in point - collectivist sub-cultures in the West rant and rave about the importance of their sub-culture at the demonization of their parent-culture. To what end? The sub-culture becomes intolerant of the primary-culture to the point of convincing themselves the primary culture and its mores and values are *invalid*. Racism is when you're actively persecuting on the basis of race. I don't accept that thoughts/words <> actions.

Unity of ideals is more important that diversity of appearance. This is largely why I laugh at D&D as it is presented today.

Quote from: jhkim;1092645The discrimination might have some sort of mythological roots from working in the sun -- but in practice and effect, it is *actually* about skin color. Someone in India can be wealthy, successful, and cultured -- but still suffer discrimination because of the hereditary color of their skin. The same thing happens in Nigeria, and Jamaica, and the U.S. Many racists will say that they have good reasons to be biased against dark-skinned people -- but their myths, excuses and/or rationalizations don't change the fact that they're fucking racist.

Being biased against the hereditary color of someone's skin isn't classism, because it's based on hereditary physical characteristics -- not wealth or culture.

FWIW I can confirm much of this. And sometimes it is definitely racism in every sense of the word, because the upper casts often see themselves as descended from the "pure" and light-skinned Aryans. It's a weird mix of social class and race.

EDIT: forgot to mention my wife’s family and many of her friend’s families tried to keep their families “fair” by only marrying into light-skinned families. And they are all Muslims but a lot of it is inherited from old Hindu traditions. The Pakistanis were also racist against people from Bangladesh (then East Pakistan) because they were “fairer” and “purer Muslims”.

Quote from: tenbones;1092966Depends. Not all cultures are equal - first and foremost. You need context. And just because you value your culture over another's doesn't mean that is necessarily racist at all. Bigotted? Maybe. Prejudiced? Probably. The Culture defines the mores of its constituents which can be comprised of *anything* with one sole understanding: the constituents have to agree in the social contract of being a member of that culture. That's it.

The context was already within the scope of argument on which you are expanding.

By itself, culture has no value that isn't subjective, and you can love your brand all you want in your own head. Expressions of culture can have recognized and specific value, ownership, cost and the like. But nobody actually owns culture. That's why cultural appropriation is so much nonsense.

Institutionally pressuring people to maintain a culture that requires someone to keep to their own biological tribe is racist, just like a bar owner hanging a sign that says "Whites Only" because he wants to maintain the ambiance of the bar. He's claiming its culture, but the implementation is racist. Drawing a line between us (being of the same culture AND race ) and everyone else and then pitching consequences over crossing that line is about both culture and race, and not just culture.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092927What part of ANY culture is biological?

That's an area of study that will never get funded!

I would guess all human culture is influenced by human biology, but I don't believe there is enough biological differences between ethnic groups for that aspect of our biology (hair, eye, skin color) to determine culture.

But who knows. Only an AI would have the lack of human bias necessary to examine such a question.