Actually I think the nerds of today are called incels.

LOL, then I shall wear that label with pride.

Quote from: Haffrung;1078421Not all nerds are into math optimization.

But that wasn't my claim. My claim is that it was nerdish because it had complicated rulesets (compared to boardgames of the time) that involved calculations, numbers and tables galore. This would keep a lot of "normal people" from gaming. The nerds wouldn't mind.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078425But that wasn't my claim. My claim is that it was nerdish because it had complicated rulesets (compared to boardgames of the time) that involved calculations, numbers and tables galore. This would keep a lot of "normal people" from gaming. The nerds wouldn't mind.

I think you're confusing nerds and geeks.

Quote from: Shasarak;1078317The average Gamer is far too smart to fall for that kind of argument.  A new edition every eight years and at the same time too stubborn to change?  Sell your bridge in the next town.

Strawman. Second time you've done that in response to me. Guess you know you're wrong, but are not big enough to admit it so you have to make up a false being easily knocked down substitute instead?

I didn't say anyone was too stubborn to change. This isn't an on or off type issue. I said they are MORE resistant to change, ON AVERAGE, than your AVERAGE fan of other fandoms, like sports.

That doesn't mean nobody handles change in this field. It means they're simply worse about it than many others. Your average sports team for example changes every few years - from top to bottom their personnel often change. Sports fans might bitch about it for a few months, and then they deal. Meanwhole RPG gamer fans will bitch about it for a decade, and claim 8 year cycles is changing too fast. EIGHT YEARS IS A LONG TIME, in terms of fandom issues like this. That's making my point. And the fact you think 8 years is somehow a short period of time tells me you're one of the very people I am referring to. Even you seem reluctant to embrace change if 8 years seems like an "every" type issue. I am a fan of a sports team which changes most of it's players EVERY YEAR. And that's not that unusual. Change doesn't normally happen on a generational basis like 8 years for fandom, it usually happens a lot more rapidly than that in other fandom fields. This field, however, is more reluctant to embrace change that frequently.

Quote from: Chris24601;1078363Inspiration is a mythical creature I've never seen a single DM actually use, but even if they did it's basically just a GM controlled Action Point system.

I've seen this said before. And every time it makes me think, "Dude, WT actual F?"

Every game of 5e I've played has involved inspiration. With 5 different DMs, several who don't even know each other. It's not an optional rule it's a core rule. There is an entire friggen chapter on things which feed into inspiration. Why are people not playing with it? This isn't weapon speed type stuff, this is an ordinary aspect of the core game! Heck I know two DMs who bought special oversized dice JUST for inspiration use (they hand the a big die to a player with inspiration, and that die gets rolled when used and handed back to the DM).

Quote from: Mistwell;1078437I've seen this said before. And every time it makes me think, "Dude, WT actual F?"

Every game of 5e I've played has involved inspiration. With 5 different DMs, several who don't even know each other. It's not an optional rule it's a core rule. There is an entire friggen chapter on things which feed into inspiration. Why are people not playing with it? This isn't weapon speed type stuff, this is an ordinary aspect of the core game! Heck I know two DMs who bought special oversized dice JUST for inspiration use (they hand the a big die to a player with inspiration, and that die gets rolled when used and handed back to the DM).

From my observations... the problem is it requires too much "crosstalk." The DM already has a lot to track themselves and having to remember every PCs traits, flaws and bonds to reward it is just one more thing to keep track of.

I've experienced the same thing with GMs running Mutants & Masterminds and Hero Points (which are also core to that game). It's a lot of work remembering every PCs Complications and when you've only got an hour or so to prep before game, the last thing you're worried about is remembering that one of the hero's has a coworker who is suspicious about all their absences when trouble strikes in the city.

Anything without a schedule to reward (both Inspiration and Hero Points are awarded when the GM feels it's appropriate) is something that's an easy candidate for GMs to skip entirely from their long list of things to keep track of.

It's why 4E's action points are generally superior in implementation to 5e's Inspiration. You start after each long rest with one and gain one more after every two encounters (but can only spend one per encounter, so you're encouraged not to horde them too much... not spending your first action point in the first two encounters (getting you a second one) would let you spend one each on your 3rd, 4th (when you get a third) and 5th encounters, but the system is designed around only 4-5 per day. And the GM doesn't have to track or award them, so the PCs have and use them on a regular basis.

It's also why I've generally found 5e's traits, bonds and flaws to be a waste of design space. I've never seen a DM bring them up in play because the DM is too busy running the NPCs the PCs are actually interacting with and there's no real benefit to the PC bringing them up because the DM won't even remember to hand out Inspiration for doing so.

The only PC backstory elements that ever come up are from the same players who bring them up even in games without rewards for doing so. Basically, the only people who seem inclined to use traits/bonds/flaws are the people who don't actually need those things to develop an interesting backstory.

Everything Chris said, plus inspiration does not scale well.  I gave it a fair shake when we started our first 5E game.  At 5-6 players, I could sort of make it work, but not enough to justify the attention.  At 7+, forget it.

We do use the various traits, but not as intended. They are simply notes to the player to remind them of how they intend to play the character.  The player can do that any way they want, but the traits seem to be a reasonable way to bring in a new player to the idea gradually.  But that's purely something between the player and the sheet.  Any effect in game is filtered through that player role playing the character.

Quote from: Chris24601;1078465The only PC backstory elements that ever come up are from the same players who bring them up even in games without rewards for doing so. Basically, the only people who seem inclined to use traits/bonds/flaws are the people who don't actually need those things to develop an interesting backstory.

This fits my experience.

Quote from: Mistwell;1078435Strawman. Second time you've done that in response to me. Guess you know you're wrong, but are not big enough to admit it so you have to make up a false being easily knocked down substitute instead?

I didn't say anyone was too stubborn to change. This isn't an on or off type issue. I said they are MORE resistant to change, ON AVERAGE, than your AVERAGE fan of other fandoms, like sports.

That doesn't mean nobody handles change in this field. It means they're simply worse about it than many others. Your average sports team for example changes every few years - from top to bottom their personnel often change. Sports fans might bitch about it for a few months, and then they deal. Meanwhole RPG gamer fans will bitch about it for a decade, and claim 8 year cycles is changing too fast. EIGHT YEARS IS A LONG TIME, in terms of fandom issues like this. That's making my point. And the fact you think 8 years is somehow a short period of time tells me you're one of the very people I am referring to. Even you seem reluctant to embrace change if 8 years seems like an "every" type issue. I am a fan of a sports team which changes most of it's players EVERY YEAR. And that's not that unusual. Change doesn't normally happen on a generational basis like 8 years for fandom, it usually happens a lot more rapidly than that in other fandom fields. This field, however, is more reluctant to embrace change that frequently.

Lets do a scientific experiment with Sports Fans then.  Science has proven that American Football causes brain damage so lets see how long it takes for the AVERAGE Sports fan to stop resisting changes that will prevent players getting brain damage.

Maybe we can compare that time with the AVERAGE DnD edition length?

Quote from: Chris24601;1078465and there's no real benefit to the PC bringing them up because the DM won't even remember to hand out Inspiration for doing so.

Now I am far from being an expert on anything D&D but that doesn't sound right. Why doesn't the player say: "Hold on, GM! I'm playing to my flaw X here, shouldn't that give me inspiration?"

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1078141Oh look a disingenuous attempt at discrediting an argument!  Lemme play!



Yes, because it claimed to be the spiritual successor to 3e, allowing you to still use your old material!  Meaning you don't have to change your game!



Yes, because it uses everything previous to 4e, allowing you to use your old stuff interchangeably with EVERY, OLDER version of D&D.  Meaning you don't have to change your game!



Because it uses your nostalgia and memories of the game to promote their off brand older versions of D&D and a play-style supposedly popularized by the Old School.



Yes, they DON'T.  They fight it like no one else ever will.

I'll add to this while we are at it.

It is not so much that gamers hate change. As the fact that they hate either the wrong sort of change. or too much change. If they hated change every game on earth and any to come in the future would not have a bazillion house rules and fan tweaks the second the game hits the shelves.

AD&D worked because it was mostly an extension of OD&D. Though B then BX are more apt. 2e changed some things. But overall the changes were not too messy.
3e was right on the threshold. It changed alot of things. Yet at its core was still D&D. Some were ok with that. Some were not.
4e is the poster child for what happens when you change too much. And in the wrong ways. 4e D&D GW and from what I have heard, Essentials, showed how the system could work right.
5e is all over the place with alot of new ideas and new takes on old ideas. Which is why it took off despite being still very different from AD&D.

Also what players actually hate is edition treadmills and being forced to re-buy the damn game. And some just dont want to have to relearn a new system, especially when the old one was working just fine. Only the cattle players will happily walk into the edition treadmill slaughterhouse. The rest are going to resist. A little, or alot.

Back on topic. I think Paizo may learn the hard way just how resistant players can be to edition treadmills. Which is hilarious because their fame is built up on attracting fans who hated the 3 to 4e edition treadmill.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078555Now I am far from being an expert on anything D&D but that doesn't sound right. Why doesn't the player say: "Hold on, GM! I'm playing to my flaw X here, shouldn't that give me inspiration?"

Because the initial assumption is that the GM is in charge and there's a general bias against "nagging" them when they're the one providing the bulk of the work in keeping the game entertaining. By the time the player's realize the GM just isn't handing out Inspiration at all, they'll probably have also figured out that their traits and bonds don't make a lick of difference either and they just do what they think the character should do (if they care at all about the RP) or just what's best for the character in terms of game mechanics and maybe general heroism (if they're mostly there to hang with friends and play a game).

Inspiration is a crap system because it's one more thing for a DM to have to keep track of and the entire rest of 5e's engine is predicated on "Rulings Not Rules" so there's nothing solid to appeal to as a player if they don't think they're getting enough Inspiration (the DMG makes a point that if you think awarding Inspiration runs against the situation you shouldn't give it out... it is entirely the GM's call).

"You get one use of Inspiration per session (or per long rest or however you want to assign it)" would be infinitely preferable because then at least you'd see it used.

I think it will do well if it can show that it fixes some of the flaws of the previous edition, speeds up gameplay at the table, with less math. I thought Pathfinder 1E was the final version of D&D for me. I will still play older editions for sure just easier to find new players in my area. I bought the 5E PHB fully intending to return it and instead it is now my primary version of D&D. I'm still playing PF 1E as it is my group main choice for it. I'm firmly a 5E convert. Paizo is firmly facing a Catch 22 situation. Make it too different and fans will not purchase it. Make it too much the same and fans will not purchase it.

Quote from: Omega;1078560Back on topic. I think Paizo may learn the hard way just how resistant players can be to edition treadmills. Which is hilarious because their fame is built up on attracting fans who hated the 3 to 4e edition treadmill.

That is what people who played Pathfinder and other editions of D&D said about 5E and look how wrong that proved out to be. Most fans will complain about the purchase of new books. If the new edition actually fixes the flaws of the previous edition while being easier to run most will switch over at the drop of dime. It's only grongnards or those who hate change who complain about the new version. 5E proved so much of a threat to Pathfinder that Paizo was saw the need to make a new edition. Brand loyalty to rpgs gets thrown out the windows as soon as someone can get a better, faster, easier version of the rpg to run imo. It happened with Gurps an the Hero System with Fate and Savage Worlds. The major complaint I can see is the purchase and spending money on a new edition. If PF 2E is better in all respects to run, play and easier to learn than PF 1E most players will switch over. For myself it's too little too late. With 5E I have an easier version of D&D to play and run. If I want more complexity I have PF 1E. So I am definitely not the target market for it.

Everyone who said Inspiration barely ever gets used is right. I go out of my way to use it in my games and it still barely gets used, because the DM can't keep track of it with all the other stuff that's going on, or the situations are limited so it doesn't come up from the players often.

The other problem is how ambiguous it is; it's like alignment. Let's say someone's trait is "I do risky things for my friends." Well, how risky is risky? Is just participating in combat risky? Is fighting the main encounter's damage dealer risky enough? Or do they have to do something like jump off a cliff to grab an item that they're about to lose? This kind of stuff turns into an endless back and forth, and in my experience the players will then not rely on it or even bother bringing it up because it's so uncertain, except in truly desperate situations where they have literally nothing to lose, and then at that point it's not so much using it to play their character but fishing around for any bonus they can get for this one roll they need.

That said, I've rotated between multiple different implementations of it and they've improved with time, so I think it can be done right eventually.

Quote from: Chris24601;1078566"You get one use of Inspiration per session (or per long rest or however you want to assign it)" would be infinitely preferable because then at least you'd see it used.

For some groups, that would be an improvement.  For others, it would be no different.  That's the thing with these vague systems that don't do much.  To get any use out of them at all, the GM has to customize to whatever works for a particular table.  In the case of inspiration, it's easy to customize.  However, there is so little to it, there isn't much incentive to bother.  

Inspiration is to 5E what crafting is to 3E:  A named mechanic that is a sop to players that want something in the game to call out what they are doing, but without much weight in the game.