With 6 year old players, I'd DM it at 1 or 2.

I'd be fine playing at 3 to 4.  No Feats, No MC, etc.

I'd consider Pathfinder to be toward the upper end of the scale I'm referring to, btw.

Quote from: Razor 007;1078089With 6 year old players, I'd DM it at 1 or 2.

I'd be fine playing at 3 to 4.

I'd consider Pathfinder to be toward the upper end of the scale I'm referring to, btw.

This is about as vague as the common pain scales, especially in the 3-7 range. What one person consider an "average complexity" is going to vary more than answers that fall high or low.

What is my 5 or 6 is likely equivalent to most others 8 to 10's. So short version? I don't know.

But I do like crunch. As long as it's good crunch and doesn't get in my way or slow the table down, that is.

I need two data points for this: where do you see D&D 3E and 5E?

5e D&D seems to hit the sweet spot for me - with Feats, without Multiclassing would be the bullseye. That's probably about a 5 or 6 in terms of games on the market?

Quote from: S'mon;10780985e D&D seems to hit the sweet spot for me - with Feats, without Multiclassing would be the bullseye. That's probably about a 5 or 6 in terms of games on the market?

Feats and Multiclassing in D&D 5th Edition are optional systems you don't have to use. So if you don't use them, those levels of added complexity disappear. And at the default for 5th Edition D&D, they aren't used.

For me these days, I truly dont' know where I would fit on the scale. But I tend to believe that simpler is better.

But the game I play in on saturdays? More complicated than Rolemaster. But I'm willing to put up with it because the actual campaign is fun. I'm willing to stomach a lot for a good game.

But I'm not willing to GM at this point anything more complex than Icons.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078097I need two data points for this: where do you see D&D 3E and 5E?

.......

PF1 9-10
D&D 3.5 8-9
3.0 7-8
5E 5-7
2nd AD&D 5-6
1st AD&D 6-7
OD&D 4

Rough Estimates

Quote from: Razor 007;1078104Rough Estimates

Well, I'd downgrade all your ratings by 1 to leave more room for complexer games than PF1. However, under your metric, I'm currently aiming at a 7 with my game. But, as a scenario or mini-campaign, I can play anything from rather rules-light Trail of Cthulhu to heavy stuff like Rolemaster or Shadowrun. I like variety, the full spectrum of the hobby.

For a long campaign, nothing under 5 please though. 5E is the lightest I would want for that, preferably a bit heavier.
(But I am a simulationist and I guess we don't mind complexity as much.)

Quote from: Razor 007;1078104.......

PF1 9-10
D&D 3.5 8-9
3.0 7-8
5E 5-7
2nd AD&D 5-6
1st AD&D 6-7
OD&D 4

Rough Estimates

This is bullshit.

Here's a far improved and not at all incredibly biased one:

10 = HERO
9 = Eclipse Phase, Shadowrun 5e
8 = GURPS, SLA Industries, Runequest
7 = WHRPG, COC, CP2020, Traveller
6 = D&D 3.5e, Pathfinder 1e, TWRPG
5 = Storytelling/NWOD, Savage Worlds, EOTE
4 = D&D 5e, SOTDL, LOFTP = 4
3 = S.I.T.R.E.P

*wink*

*At below 3, games enter Storygame-ville by default and subsequently aren't indicative of a traditional understanding of system complexity measurement.

**And of course, more shameless plugging of my own game, mwahahaha.

COC = 7; 3.PF = 6.... what did he mean by this?

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078114COC = 7; 3.PF = 6.... what did he mean by this?

Its quite easy to fuck-up a COC character compared to PF which has a relatively straight-forward chargen critical path. More GM negotiation required as well as stat hedging.

My complexity limit is fairly high.  I'd possibly go for anything short of Phoenix Command or the like.  The 10s are out, but below that is fair game.  On the bottom end of the scale, I usually want at least some room for character differentiation that is more than cosmetic, and also some character advancement.  I don't particularly enjoy short games.  So maybe above 2 or 3.  

However, not all complexity is created equal.  My patience with complexity for complexity sake has always been almost non-existent, and over the last 15 years or so, my patience for "accounting" complexity has rapidly hit a similar lack of tolerance.

For example, I consider Hero, GURPs, and D&D 3.*/PF to be all roughly equally complex.  (They've all got spots where they vary, but as a whole, about the same.)  D&D 3.*/PF have more poorly conceived complexity, that leads directly to more "accounting" complexity.  Hero and GURPs are still pretty complex, but they accomplish more with their "complexity budget".  So if I want a game that complex, I'd always pick Hero or GURPs over any of those D&D variants.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1078116For example, I consider Hero, GURPs, and D&D 3.*/PF to be all roughly equally complex.  (They've all got spots where they vary, but as a whole, about the same.)  D&D 3.*/PF have more poorly conceived complexity, that leads directly to more "accounting" complexity.  Hero and GURPs are still pretty complex, but they accomplish more with their "complexity budget".  So if I want a game that complex, I'd always pick Hero or GURPs over any of those D&D variants.

I'll concede that D&D 3.x/PF has the same ballpark complexity to MASTER as Hero & GURPs (though I still don't think they're as high), but HERO & GURPs are nearly all up-front complexity. You need to learn nearly the entirety of the system to be able to really play properly.

I definitely agree that 3.x/PF are too complex in unnecessary ways (especially past level 6-8ish) - but it's nearly all hidden so that you don't actually need to know it to play. This is because of classes & leveling. A fighter only really needs to know how a fighter works, and a low level wizard doesn't need to understand polymorph spellcasting. etc. Even the GM only has to have a passing understanding unless they're running them - and again - at single digit levels nothing gets too bad.

Hero & GURPs have all of their rules meshed together - which can be cool in some ways - but it does mean that you need to understand the bulk of their complexity before you can play at all.

Lol no way CoC is more crunchy than PF/D&D3.

5 or 6. Nothing else.