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Why not just go D20?

Started by 1717 Fusil, May 29, 2007, 12:32:17 PM

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RPGPundit

Quote from: J ArcaneThat's an inaccurate interpretation of what I'm saying.  I think those sorts of archetypes as represented in D&D's class system only work well in D&D.  

Real people don't fit into neat molds like that, and I find that while that is easily dismissed in D&D, it becomes less so when moved to a setting that is closer to home, like the modern day, because I can just look around me at the people I meet and be able to say, "But that's not right!"

It's really not a fantasy vs. modern vs. scifi thing or anything like that, excepting that in further removal from real day-to-day life, those sorts of straightjacketed archetypes are more acceptable shortcuts.

By and large, I don't care for class systems most times, and I'm on the fence over levels depending on how they're implemented.  I make an exception for D&D because in D&D, they do prove to be rather fun as a game mechanic, and also because the world of D&D is essentially defined by those classes.

All of which is pointless, since D20 can and has often been done without classes, or with a totally different class system.

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Quote from: J ArcaneI find that the basic structure of how classes in D&D work, and how certain key abilities are directly tied to class level (not absolute level, but class), creates it's own multiclass penalty.  

The scattershot approach of take one or two levels in a dozen different classes is kludgy at best, and ultimately because of the nature of how classes work in D&D wind up crippling a character more than benefiting it.

Ultimately, I'd rather just have the freedom of a more flexible system from the get go, and by and large I've been very unsatisfied with the end result of the attempts to create such in D&D.

So because you don't like D20, you claim it doesn't really exist? How amusing.

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Quote from: RPGPunditSo because you don't like D20, you claim it doesn't really exist? How amusing.

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 Tell the Arcane one it exists. D20 takes up at least 40% of our RPG shelf space in one form or another.


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Quote from: RPGPunditSo because you don't like D20, you claim it doesn't really exist? How amusing.

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1717 Fusil

Wow,I did not expect this many response. I will say thanks for the responses as it is helping me think through my gaming.

I will say when I say D20, I really am not including OGL stuff as much. Why? That is because most people I run into want to play something like D&D be it d20 modern or Star Wars even. They are comfortable with the system as a whole. yes, it game might have little changes but for the most part a quick read of the rules and you can be up and playing a new game.

Now, I have been of the opinion that system does matter. Different systems do change how games are played for most people. I do agree that you can modify most systems to run a lot of genre but some systems run certain games better than others. This is why the idea of just using one or two systems for me is a fairly new experience. I have run well over 50 different systems over my 25+ years of gaming.

That is why lately as I look to condense my games to a few generic systems are having more appeal. I do not have time to remember 20+systems or rung 6 different campaigns using 5 different systems anymore. I see a large number of people quite happy playing D&D 3.5 and nothing else and am beginning to see why.

I can understand the play what you like suggestionsbut there is a difference of playing D&D,a game I do enjoy from time to time, and playing say HARP, which I love to play). If I cannot find people willing to play HARP but will play D&D, I would rather play D&D and have some fun than not play anything and have no fun or wishing I was playing HARP.

As for being a player, I just moved to a small town and finding people even willing to play rpgs is hard. I also seem, even if I start as a player being ended up asked to GM. I guess I am pretty good at it as many of my players over the years have said so and I always seem to end up behind the screen at some point. So currently, unless I want to travel a long distance, I am working at creating my own group from scratch which the closest people I have found is those who have heard of D&D and are willing to give it a try. You mention any other game you get a blank look. The idea of those I am finding learning multiple systems is going to be a hard sell for most of them.
 

estar

Quote from: J ArcaneBy and large, I don't care for class systems most times, and I'm on the fence over levels depending on how they're implemented.  I make an exception for D&D because in D&D, they do prove to be rather fun as a game mechanic, and also because the world of D&D is essentially defined by those classes.

First I am a long time GURPS it has been and continues to be my primary system. With that being said I have a lot of respect for the D20 system. From my point of view if D20 existed in 1986, I would have never switched to Fantasy HERO and later GURPS.

Why? Because one of the main reason for switching systems it being able to customize your characters. In the beginning most did it through acquiring items but that had its own problems. A lot of players wanted to customize their character's capability.

D20 does that well through the feat and skill subsystems. No two fighters have to be the same (clerics, wizards, etc, etc). The multiclassing rules is just icing on the cake and allows for truly unique combinations.

When I got 3rd Edition, I both played it and GMed. To me, as long time GURPS DM, it looked like a GURPS lite. The 20 levels were a chunky way of allocating "points", attributes were attributes, skills were skills, and feats were advantages, and no disadvantages. When I DMed a game for a bunch of old time 2nd Edition players I opened their eyes as I ran it pretty much like a GURPS game with lots of skill checks and using their feats (advantages). My NPCs were nearly always a combination of classes including NPC classes.

In fact I briefly considered permanently switching. The main reason is that it was a pain the ass to make GURPS NPCs and creatures and D20 was considerably easier.

But in the end I didn't make the switch. I didn't feel like converting the decade long mass of support material I developed for the Wilderlands. GURPS 3rd Edition started publishing templates which eased my NPC creation problems. Finally when I played through D20 I didn't like the rate of progression (too fast). So I reverted to GURPS. But D20 is a fine system and would use it under the right circumstances.

There is nothing about the Class, Attribute, Feat, and Skills system that ties it to D&D and High Fantasy. It is eminently customizable in my opinion. Obviously the D20 SRD is for D&D High Fantasy. But the basic principles are sound and I feel been successfully applied to many different genres.

Classes are just a shorthand for a template to use to buy X number of Skills, Feats, and ability increases. Really no different then using GURPS templates except that few GURPS Templates have different levels of experiences while Class/Prestige Classes come in 5,10, 20 levels of experience.

From playing D&D for 20+ years the main appeal between D&D and the other rpgs was that with other RPGs your character was represented by bag of skills and abilities that was customizable. D&D in contrasts everything depended on the class you took. D20 is definitely in the category of "other" rpgs with your character being represented mostly by a bag of skills and feats. (with a few class abilities thrown in).

In contrast Castles and Crusade is more like D&D with actual abilities being firmly tied to the class. Of course you have the siege mechanic which makes it more flexibile the original.

Rob Conley