Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1070584I'm not interested in it.

Same here. Never appealed to me.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1070585I haven't played Eberron so I can't say how it handles morality (though a lot of the discussion here appears to be based on secondhand knowledge anyways).

When has that ever stopped us?

QuoteBut I think there is a lot of blurring in this argument. Having moral complexity or even a morally gray works isn't the same as moral relativism. And even if the world itself is the latter, I don't really see the big deal. I like Lord of the Rings but I can also handle a film or book that presents a setting where there are not objective forces of good and evil, or competing moral ideologies where the right path isn't clear, or even amoral nihilistic worlds.

My limited exposure to Eberron suggests that there was a lot of political/espionage competition (including very nasty tactics) between different families, none of which had completely clean hands but none of which were utterly evil. I saw no evidence that any of them did not understand, or disagreed on, what actions were immoral, so that's not moral relativism.

QuoteI think in the case of sympathetic monsters, that can certainly be overdone but it isn't the same as moral relativism. A world of misunderstood monsters just means they are mistaken for evil, not that evil doesn't exist (in fact that their misunderstood nature is the point, suggest an 'ought' in the world, otherwise you could just kill them and not have to understand them---so not very relative morality).

Pretty much every monster sooner or later gets a sympathetic treatment (zombies in Warm Bodies, the Creature from the Black Lagoon in the Shape of Water, orcs in the Warcraft movie, and so on), not because of politics or philosophy but just for a fresh take on them. (Hmm, don't have a good movie/television example for demons or devils.)

QuoteIn terms of the designer's political ideas getting into the game, as long as he is making the setting he wants, I think it is fine.

I think designers with some fairly extreme political ideas would put me off without ever looking at their game or setting, whether the ideas got into it or not. But I don't think anyone should have a standard that no political idea can ever go into a game. (But rigging your game to validate your political preferences is bad design.)

Quote from: rawma;1070604(Hmm, don't have a good movie/television example for demons or devils.)

Hellboy? He is an individual case of it rather than the whole of demons being portrayed sympathetically, but still applies. Moreso in #2 when they talk about the various creatures having been betrayed by mankind etc. - but they're not actually demons per se.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1070616Hellboy? He is an individual case of it rather than the whole of demons being portrayed sympathetically, but still applies. Moreso in #2 when they talk about the various creatures having been betrayed by mankind etc. - but they're not actually demons per se.

Well, I wasn't necessarily thinking of movies where all such creatures in it got the sympathetic creature treatment (some of the zombies in Warm Bodies were too far gone to come back, and there's only one creature in Shape of Water). I didn't think of Hellboy and had to go look up whether he really was a demon or just looked like one; Wikipedia says half-demon, which would make him ...

Spoiler

a tiefling. Sort of. Sorry if that ruins Hellboy for anyone.

Spoiler

OK, maybe a Cambion. Except that they're always evil.

Quote from: rawma;1070604(Hmm, don't have a good movie/television example for demons or devils.)

Buffy the Vampire and Angel both gave us sympathetic demons. Supernatural has done it a few times too.

Quote from: rawma;1070620Well, I wasn't necessarily thinking of movies where all such creatures in it got the sympathetic creature treatment (some of the zombies in Warm Bodies were too far gone to come back, and there's only one creature in Shape of Water). I didn't think of Hellboy and had to go look up whether he really was a demon or just looked like one; Wikipedia says half-demon, which would make him ...

Spoiler

a tiefling. Sort of. Sorry if that ruins Hellboy for anyone.

Spoiler

OK, maybe a Cambion. Except that they're always evil.

Cambions aren't always evil in Eberron.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1070622Cambions aren't always evil in Eberron.

Back on topic; good for you! If I understand what Eberron is trying to do, it's not really compatible with good and evil teams, but it's still not moral relativism. Honestly, I'd not be surprised if we could find a module with a cambion who is not evil, set in the Forgotten Realms.

I haven't read any Eberron material since 4e came out, but I have almost all the 3e sourcebooks.  It is one of my all time favorite settings.  I ran a two year campaign that took the characters from 1st to over 20th level, and we loved every bit of it. It's really easy to drop stuff in where you need it.  I ran "The Red Hand of Doom," a mini campaign about a goblinoid horde with draconic support, about halfway through, and only had to do minor tweaks.

The setting allows for a variety of different types of adventures, and most elements can be played as they typically are or with an Eberron twist (ie: halflings may be dinosaur riding organized crime figures, while Gnomes can be information brokers).

Alignment was handled differently than in a a lot of D&D at the time, but overall I liked it.  The gods weren't as picky about their worshippers, so you could be in the temple of a Lawful Good religion, but the high priest might be lawful evil - could be out of himself, or may have done some horrible things "for the greater good" in the war.  The main thing is that it made Detect [alignment] spells to be not nearly as beneficial as they might normally have been.  That lawful evil high priest might still be a very useful ally who has no reason to turn on you.

I loved most of the new races - Warforged can be a lot of fun, Changelings have some neat options - though I never did much with psionics, so I can't speak to the Kalashtar.  

Overall, if you buy into a lot of the conceits of D&D but want a slightly different take, it's a fun setting.  It helps to like pulp, though, so it's not everyone's cup of tea.

As to Baker's politics, I don't recall seeing much of it in the books.  I recall that Changelings can change their gender, and any Changeling can get pregnant if in female form, and that some of them did not choose a gender at all.  However, that made sense for the race and did not really feel forced.  I would still enjoy the product even knowing that about Baker, as long as the politics are kept out.

Quote from: rawma;1070635Back on topic; good for you! If I understand what Eberron is trying to do, it's not really compatible with good and evil teams, but it's still not moral relativism. Honestly, I'd not be surprised if we could find a module with a cambion who is not evil, set in the Forgotten Realms.

There are at least a few evil teams.   The Lords of Dust is an ancient conspiracy of rakshasas that is solidly wicked.  The Emerald Claw is a fundamentalist sect of necromancers and minions.  There are a myriad Cults of the Dragon Below that are all at least dangerous.  The two monstrous nations are seeking recognition in their own ways, but they are not misunderstood victims of prejudice.  The Dreaming Dark is a group of nightmare overlords that want to dominate the world with their psychic powers.

There are a few places to turn if you wanted straight up villain smashing.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1070321I don't place a divide in my mind between Eberron and Keith Baker's Eberron just as I don't give two shits that Greenwood has his personal take on the FR. The property is WotC's and they dumped out a turd, and regardless of what the original creator might have fed them, that turd is Eberron.

This is the unvarnished truth (turd).

To me, Ebberon is what you get by imagining what sort of world would develop in a universe where the "laws of physics" were the rules of D&D.

As such, it's a great setting to use with D&D rules, but ironically doesn't feel much like D&D at all.

The tagline of "If it exists in D&D, it has a place in Eberron" is a big part of the problem. Eberron is the "Yes, and..." idiocy taken literally in world building. There's really too much in D&D, and if you include everything, then that means the dumbest bits have to get in there too. It really is OK to say "No" to some stuff when making a world, but when you don't... Eberron happens.

The "if it exists in D&D it has a place in Eberron" isn't supposed to be "everything in D&D exists in Eberron." It is supposed to be that there is a place you can slot things in if you want them.

Saying "no" is an expectation that does sadly get ignored.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1070292I really like Eberron. The feel, the magic as industry, it's all good.

As far as no one being good or evil? It throws out the default racial alignments. Meaning that a Gold Dragon might be a complete fuckwit, while a Red Dragon might be a noble philosopher.

Eberron is my favorite D&D setting, hands-down. I agree 100% that it's far more interesting to find out a shape-shifting unicorn is the villain than a red dragon "disguised" as a wizard. Also, there are inherently evil races in the Daelkyr.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1071609Eberron is my favorite D&D setting, hands-down. I agree 100% that it's far more interesting to find out a shape-shifting unicorn is the villain than a red dragon "disguised" as a wizard. Also, there are inherently evil races in the Daelkyr.

I'm not sure the Daelkyr count as inherently evil so much as so completely batshit to the point that good and evil are fun party hats.