Quote from: Kiero;1069647Odysseus was also a king, so by definition not an "ordinary man".

Odysseus was also the great great grandson of Zeus. (And possibly Hermes.) And he was able to string the bow of Apollo.

Quote from: Omega;1069911Odysseus was also the great great grandson of Zeus. (And possibly Hermes.) And he was able to string the bow of Apollo.

THANK YOU!  I knew he was related to the Greek Gods!  But I forget that detail.  Thanks.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1069703I'm cool with weird races...but only if they add to the game as characters/cultures, not just another set of kewl powerz.

Same. This was my main problem with 3e Gamma World and up as there was this big push to want to give all the mutant animal PCs all these different natural weapons and abilities and after a while it really does look like they only want the species for the extra attacks or whatever rather than as an interesting character. So I tend to remand it back to 2e where being a mutant animal do not grant any natural abilities unless taken as mutations.

The fall in the appeal of Middle-earth.  Folks have all the Middle-earth they want, with video games, movies, etc.  Don't need to play settings spawned from it as much.

Quote from: Omega;1069911Odysseus was also the great great grandson of Zeus. (And possibly Hermes.) And he was able to string the bow of Apollo.

Hermes, IIRC.  That makes him as much a demigod as Elizabeth Warren is an American Indian.:rolleyes:  He was a mortal.  

Stringing a bow is more a learned skill than a test of strength, at least from what I've seen.  Tiny Welshmen strung longbows readily enough, for example, because they know how.

Quote from: Franky;1070084Hermes, IIRC.  That makes him as much a demigod as Elizabeth Warren is an American Indian.:rolleyes:  He was a mortal.  

Stringing a bow is more a learned skill than a test of strength, at least from what I've seen.  Tiny Welshmen strung longbows readily enough, for example, because they know how.

I practiced archery as a kid. Trust me man, it's strength. The men you call tiny were massively built for their stature.

Quote from: Cave Bear;1070086I practiced archery as a kid. Trust me man, it's strength. The men you call tiny were massively built for their stature.

So much so, that the skeletons of longbowmen recovered from the wreck of the Mary Rose had signs of huge musculature in the back and shoulders.

My current party of misfits is a bit Fraggle Rock: elf rogue, half-elf warlock, dragonborn druid, halfling barbarian, tiefling assassin, gnome illusionist thief, but they do have a human cleric to ground things a bit. I think inexperienced players tend to rely on gimmicks rather than take the trouble to work out an interesting personality. The novelty soon wears off though.

^^^Now this I did not know, but it makes sense.  It took years of practice to make a good longbowman.  But, they did not need to be extraordinary.

Quote from: Cave Bear;1070086I practiced archery as a kid. Trust me man, it's strength. The men you call tiny were massively built for their stature.

I did too.  There was a method to stringing a bow that we were taught that made it much easier.  My guess is Odysseus would have known it or something similar ( He knowing how to use his brain) and the suitors did not.   Still, I think of Odysseus as an ordinary man who got by on his wits rather than any gift from the gods or any sort of super powers.

Quote from: Franky;1070108^^^Now this I did not know, but it makes sense.  It took years of practice to make a good longbowman.  But, they did not need to be extraordinary.



I did too.  There was a method to stringing a bow that we were taught that made it much easier.  My guess is Odysseus would have known it or something similar ( He knowing how to use his brain) and the suitors did not.   Still, I think of Odysseus as an ordinary man who got by on his wits rather than any gift from the gods or any sort of super powers.

He got by on his extraordinary cunning, exceptional strength and fighting prowess (though less than some warriors like Achilles), and superb social skills in persuasion and deception. This is not somebody with an everyman's set of ability scores. There is no low score to be found here, so if this is an argument against using an ability array, Odysseus is perhaps only useful as "that player that rolled really well...at home...he says...but he must be telling the truth."

Eh, interesting bit I learned a few years ago... Odysseus's name translates into something like 'bearer of suffering' or something like that.  I dunno, ancient greek is greek to me.

Quote from: Franky;1070108Still, I think of Odysseus as an ordinary man who got by on his wits rather than any gift from the gods or any sort of super powers.

Except for, you know, being a king and all. That coming with wealth, influence, health, combat skills, knowledge of aristocratic customs and such.

Has anyone actually read The Oddysey? He claims guest-friendship with kings, something an ordinary man would have no right to.

Quote from: Kiero;1070124Except for, you know, being a king and all. That coming with wealth, influence, health, combat skills, knowledge of aristocratic customs and such.

Has anyone actually read The Oddysey? He claims guest-friendship with kings, something an ordinary man would have no right to.

Excellent: Lets talk about the social structure of Bronze Age Greece!

We toss about the term 'King' but its probably a lot more accurate to say something like Cheiftan.  Remember that the Greeks at Troy were all 'kings' after a fashion. How many can you name off the top of your head?  I can probably force more than a dozen or so out with a tiny bit of cheating, and I'm sure it was much higher.   Its not much of an exaggeration to suggest that when Odysseus killed all the suitors he wiped out the equivalent of the entire adult male population of Ithaca (though, presumably many of the Suitors were not native to Ithaca).   Its not an unreasonable suggestion that anyone over the age of twenty or so on Ithaca itself has a damn good chance, regardless of social status, of recognizing Odysseus personally, which is why he goes about in disguise.

King, sure. But to clarify: Right now I live in a small town of about 15k people.  By the standards of the day there would probably be three or more 'kings' in this one town alone, if not more.  Don't forget that Odysseus tried to get out of the Trojan war by plowing his fields, implying strongly that even the kings had manual labor they had to perform.

Quote from: Franky;1070108I did too.  There was a method to stringing a bow that we were taught that made it much easier.  My guess is Odysseus would have known it or something similar ( He knowing how to use his brain) and the suitors did not.   Still, I think of Odysseus as an ordinary man who got by on his wits rather than any gift from the gods or any sort of super powers.

It doesn't matter, it still requires a significant amount to just draw a bow, imagine how much stronger a GOD'S bow is. Now imagine how much stronger a pull Apollo's bow would have at that.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1070127It doesn't matter, it still requires a significant amount to just draw a bow, imagine how much stronger a GOD'S bow is. Now imagine how much stronger a pull Apollo's bow would have at that.

Bah! Even gods in 5e D&D know to dump Strength if using a bow. Much like their mortal followers that somehow have no trouble stringing and drawing a longbow with the ubiquitous Strength 8 dump stat.