Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1064521The problem with the drow is that they are pigeonholed. Dark elves in the rest of fantasy fiction are remarkably diverse, but the drow are stuck in a rut.

Regarding their appearance, I always preferred to give them more diversity. The various suggestions for EverQuest dark elf designs I linked a while back were perfect for what I had in mind.

Drow stopped being pigeonholed when Unearthed Arcana came out. Possibly before even that as there were I believe articles in Dragon mentioning good drow. And just they got less pigeonholed as time went on. While in some settings they are something other than what the MM presents. Even some modules have them as doing very non-drow stuff.

As for "diversity". "Diversity" can go straight to hell when it just another virtue signal.

Quote from: Omega;1064801Drow stopped being pigeonholed when Unearthed Arcana came out. Possibly before even that as there were I believe articles in Dragon mentioning good drow. And just they got less pigeonholed as time went on. While in some settings they are something other than what the MM presents. Even some modules have them as doing very non-drow stuff.

As for "diversity". "Diversity" can go straight to hell when it just another virtue signal.

And you, Omega, really just unearthed the *real* problem. There is NO level of actual nuance you can apply to the "Drow Problem" to get around -

1) They're Black and Evil
2) They're Matriarchal and Evil

NONE. You can say - Hey! This family of Drow are secretly run by a conspiracy of males that worship a Good god/No god - and want to overthrow the Lolth Matrons! Then it's Patriarchal Colonization! You can make them albinos. Then it's literal white-washing.

The real issue has nothing to do with the historical context of Drow. It has nothing to do with the fact they were designed to be antagonist with nuanced contradictions, like all cultural constructs have. No, instead this is about people blinded by their ideological beliefs that insist those box of cigars are actually boxes of dildos crafted by males to flaunt their power over others (are you reading this Pundit? Your cigar is showing! we're on to you!)

But he's a pipe smoker.  What would Freud make of that?

Quote from: Franky;1064897But he's a pipe smoker.  What would Freud make of that?

have you ever SEEN... the shape of that pipe? hmm? Hmmm? HMMMMMM?


Hmmm....

Quote from: tenbones;1064904have you ever SEEN... the shape of that pipe? hmm? Hmmm? HMMMMMM?


Hmmm....

I'll be in my bunk....

I've got the PERFECT solution for anyone who finds the Drow "problematic"!  It's full proof and solves every conceivable issue.

They leave the hobby, never to return. Boom. Done. Total gain for the hobby.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1064557The USA still has massive social injustices

No. The USA has ZERO "massive social injustices". Go visit some Third World shitholes to learn what "massive" really means in terms of injustice.

Especially those Third World shitholes who thought communism was a good idea.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1064572China has very disturbing views regarding "white liberals"

That link was awesome!! I had no idea the Chinese online were so absolutely on top of the "white liberal' bullshit.

Quote from: tenbones;1064904have you ever SEEN... the shape of that pipe? hmm? Hmmm? HMMMMMM?

There's a pill for that!

Quote from: Spinachcat;1064966That link was awesome!! I had no idea the Chinese online were so absolutely on top of the "white liberal' bullshit.

Campaign idea: The orcs of the Western Reach have fairly recently destroyed elven influence in their land. A great warlord expelled the elves and tore down all the structures that reminded the orcs of elves. Now the humans have been making inroads into the Western Reach, teaching the importance of the Good alignment and how to build productive farms.

The orcs are starting to get really sick of it. Raiding is so much cooler. Time to kick out the humans and do what orcs do best.

Bemusingly the Aranea spider people from Red Steel are about the opposite of the drow. They are neutral or even friendly and rather close in their famililal ties. Probably what Drow would be if they weren't under the web of a goddess.

Quote from: tenbones;1064871And you, Omega, really just unearthed the *real* problem. There is NO level of actual nuance you can apply to the "Drow Problem" to get around -

1) They're Black and Evil
2) They're Matriarchal and Evil

NONE. You can say - Hey! This family of Drow are secretly run by a conspiracy of males that worship a Good god/No god - and want to overthrow the Lolth Matrons! Then it's Patriarchal Colonization! You can make them albinos. Then it's literal white-washing.

The real issue has nothing to do with the historical context of Drow. It has nothing to do with the fact they were designed to be antagonist with nuanced contradictions, like all cultural constructs have. No, instead this is about people blinded by their ideological beliefs that insist those box of cigars are actually boxes of dildos crafted by males to flaunt their power over others (are you reading this Pundit? Your cigar is showing! we're on to you!)

That's not I want to tweak the drow. In other fiction dark elves have developed beyond being black and matriarchal, but D&D stubbornly clings to that. Why do they need to be black and matriarchal? Why can't they just be vicious elves who live in harsh environments? Why the baggage?

Every time someone suggests changing the drow to reflect the greater range of modern fiction, they get labeled an SJW.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1064966That link was awesome!! I had no idea the Chinese online were so absolutely on top of the "white liberal' bullshit.

I have no idea what you are referring to. The first answer was written by a Chinese "white liberal" (because it is used as a slur in China against political progressives), specifically explaining that the "white liberal" meme is a farce.

The anti-SJW movement is a pipeline to the alt-right. The danger posed by the radical fringe of SJWs is radically overblown, to point where one poster here recently stated they think left-leaning views are a mental illness. The real problem is the overblown reactions to the fear mongering. Most people don't actually have a coherent ideology and just vote for political parties like they do sports teams. So people voted for an incompetent lunatic like Trump because of party loyalty rather than because they wanted a competent president or even agree with his views.

Whenever I see people crying about the SJWs, I'm not really inclined to take them seriously because now the term has become synonymous with any and all left-leaning views. If someone is using it seriously, either they are far right or ignorant of its wider connotations.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1065297That's not I want to tweak the drow. In other fiction dark elves have developed beyond being black and matriarchal, but D&D stubbornly clings to that. Why do they need to be black and matriarchal? Why can't they just be vicious elves who live in harsh environments? Why the baggage?

Every time someone suggests changing the drow to reflect the greater range of modern fiction, they get labeled an SJW.

Probably because they lean heavily into the racist/sexist/oppressor/oppressed angle, like you did earlier in the thread.

Why do they need to be black and matriarchal? We could be playing monochrome squares fighting spheres, and avoid all the baggage. But we don't because there are certain tropes that resonate with people, like darkness/light, male/female, good/evil, and that's why they keep popping up.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1065297That's not I want to tweak the drow. In other fiction dark elves have developed beyond being black and matriarchal, but D&D stubbornly clings to that. Why do they need to be black and matriarchal? Why can't they just be vicious elves who live in harsh environments? Why the baggage?

Every time someone suggests changing the drow to reflect the greater range of modern fiction, they get labeled an SJW.

Because they'be been established that way. They have been accepted that was by definition into the 'canon' of D&D Fantasy, as such, for the last 40+ years.

The reasons they're matriarchal (which isn't uniform even in their kitchen-sink settings like the Forgotten Realms) is because of Lolth. Same reason why they're evil. They *sided* with Lolth in her great betrayal against the Seldarine. This is a mythical allegory to all the western myths of "The Great Betrayal" and the "Fall". The Drow in this respect are like "rebel angels".

Is it that difficult to grasp?

The fact make some attribution of political correctness *based* about their appearance which isn't even relevant since "blacks" in real life aren't actually *black*, and that they're a Matriarchy - as if somehow the THEOCRATIC DICTATES of a Demon Goddess who takes upon herself the identity of the black widow archetype, seems to require an extremely intense level of cognitive dissonance or willful ignorance, at best, to ignore.

Feel free to create "dark elves" in your games. But the Drow exist writ-large in D&D as they are because of their contextual history that seems to be a cosmological event.

I'll do you one better - Dark Elves in Raymond Feist's novels "The Riftwar" don't look black. They look like the other elves (with some small differences that are totally cosmetic). BUT they're tied fundamentally to their history which makes them Moredhel. Ironically they're referred to as "The Brotherhood of the Dark Path" or "Dark Brothers" who are pledged to follow the service of their evil demi-god creators. On rare occasion one of them will forsake the "Dark Path" and try return to the main body of Elves (the Eledhel) and the Elves do this communal celebration "The Returning" to bring them back into the fold.

It's pretty cool.

The ISSUE here is that you seem to be hung up on superficial issues about the Drow - not things that explain why they exist or are game-worthy.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1065297I have no idea what you are referring to. The first answer was written by a Chinese "white liberal" (because it is used as a slur in China against political progressives), specifically explaining that the "white liberal" meme is a farce.

That's because they correctly identity that white-"liberals" (that aren't really liberal at all) are the primary drivers of this ideology that is at its heart self-destructive not just to the individual - but the nation-state. That is something Chinese people - especially actual liberal leaning ones highly value. They live in an authoritarian communist society that fundamentally leverage crony-capitalism for state-needs. America is a beacon to them - now they see white-leftists drinking from the trough that *they* are living under. Hence the term. Hence the scorn.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1065297The anti-SJW movement is a pipeline to the alt-right. The danger posed by the radical fringe of SJWs is radically overblown, to point where one poster here recently stated they think left-leaning views are a mental illness.

Ah. So if it's overblown - why are we incessently talking about Identity Politics in fantasy-elf games and every single other form of pop-culture, and nearly every form of domestic policy gets questioned via the lense of this ultra-small minority to the detriment of the nation itself, as well as every foreign policy and political appointment and vote get dragged into the pit of self-loathing not an issue? Why is the entire EU consumed with it to their own potential detriment? Why are all of the west's education systems compromised by the "instructors" pumping this ideology out - eerily its mutating into a secular religion of the worst king.

If it's really that small... why has it proliferated? Which of us isn't looking at this "issue" with the correct lens? Clearly it must be us actual-liberal/libertarian/conservative/civic-nationalists in Asia and America that *really* have nothing better to do than talk about the Left's non-stop attempts at deconstructing civilization they pretend they're not benefiting from?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1065297The real problem is the overblown reactions to the fear mongering. Most people don't actually have a coherent ideology and just vote for political parties like they do sports teams. So people voted for an incompetent lunatic like Trump because of party loyalty rather than because they wanted a competent president or even agree with his views.

I agree. But I think you are greatly glossing over the impact of what happens when an ideology really digs into the ignorant masses. Constantine had no fucking clue/didn't give a fuck about the Roman Empire having largely converted to Christianity before he intelligently co-opted them. I'm not speaking of the outcomes - I'm speaking of the phenomenon of belief. It takes very little to have idiots believe some very dumb things. It doesn't help that the requirements to maintain our state of civilization in the west takes greater and greater technical competency that those self-same idiots can't possibly comprehend - nor want to.

Worse: now those idiots want to call it "evil".

There are very few things you can do with true-believers in an ideology that believe the "other" is evil. History is filled with such dead civilizations.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1065297Whenever I see people crying about the SJWs, I'm not really inclined to take them seriously because now the term has become synonymous with any and all left-leaning views. If someone is using it seriously, either they are far right or ignorant of its wider connotations.

And this is precisely why the Left doesn't understand exactly how memes work. You know - like when SJW's call white people (and Jews, and Asians) that don't agree with their views "Nazis". Because you know where that term came from right? I seriously doubt any whites, Jews or Asians here in America are actually part of a defunct party of National Socialists from 20th century Germany. See how it works?

The funny part is being called an SJW means, euphemistically, you're an ideological dumbass. I have very close friends that are SJW's. I love them. They're family. They're also ill-thought dummies. The reverse of that is not the same - SJW's call people Nazis, Racists, etc. *because* they want to have harm come upon them. That's why you *call* someone a Nazi - to justify the ability to do any action necessary to stop them.


I don't even think the Drow get this kind of treatment. But probably should. They're evil as fuck.

Let's take this from the top:


We're still contending that - "The reason Drow are 'problematic' is because they're 1)physically dark and evil. 2)they are a matriarchy and evil."

The corollary of all this is:  for the people that feel these things are what makes the Drow problematic are: "Because it insinuates being dark with evil" - which they illogically believe is associated with dark-skinned people in the real world (which says more about what they think than anything else). And further they do not like the idea about their view a Matriarchy happens to be portrayed as EVIL. When the only thing that makes the Drow Matriarchy actually evil is the fact that it's a THEOCRACY based on a Matriarchal Religion, at the top of which is a very hands-on Demon Queen Spider Goddess that is *eeeeevil*.

Somehow... this is a problem in our make-believe worlds of fantasy D&D where Twin-Baboon Headed Demon Lords and Ram-Horned Pig Demons are peers of the Spider Queen. Where shit-swillng Otyugh's probably eat dozens if not hundreds of people each year down in city-sewers of major metropolises. Where Orc genocide is not only a thing - its a thing in both directions. Orcs wanna kill everyone. Everyone want's to kill orcs for the same reason! How do we subject ourselves to these psychological horrors?

Did I miss anything?

Maybe the issue is that all other elf groups are considered "white" by default. Are there any D&D setting that show "non-Caucasian" members of non-Drow elf groups? Any brown-skinned wood elves or sallow-skinned high elves in the mainstream settings?

In general, over the past 20-30 years or so, there has been growing two-sided partisanship in the U.S. - now fed particularly by social media and click-bait. Regarding SJW, there are two distinct behaviors here:

1) Calling anyone who disagrees with you a nazi
2) Frequently pushing for social justice causes including LGBT rights, sexism, racism, etc.

There is plenty of overlap between these two, but these are distinct behaviors. The same goes for conservatives.

Quote from: tenbones;1065320We're still contending that - "The reason Drow are 'problematic' is because they're 1)physically dark and evil. 2)they are a matriarchy and evil."

The corollary of all this is:  for the people that feel these things are what makes the Drow problematic are: "Because it insinuates being dark with evil" - which they illogically believe is associated with dark-skinned people in the real world (which says more about what they think than anything else). And further they do not like the idea about their view a Matriarchy happens to be portrayed as EVIL. When the only thing that makes the Drow Matriarchy actually evil is the fact that it's a THEOCRACY based on a Matriarchal Religion, at the top of which is a very hands-on Demon Queen Spider Goddess that is *eeeeevil*.

This is not my position, which you have ignored. I would again point out that it's not just that there happens to be an evil matriarchy. It's how the drow matriarchy is not just the only matriarchy in the core game, but also the most prominent example of sexism of any sort in the core game. Orcs are noted as being "mostly patriarchal" but without specifying to what degree there is sexism.

As I've said, I think the drow would be fine if there were a mix of different matriarchies and patriarchies, evil and good. But it stands out like a sore thumb if sexism against male drow is the most prominent example of sexism in the game.

I wonder about D&D fiction as well. For those who have read D&D fiction - how much does sexism against women feature? Or is Drizz't the most prominent example of sexism in the fiction as well?