Quote from: S'mon;1064149Some googling indicated that others had made the connection previously but I have not seen any indication Gygax intended it. He was generally happy to use real world mythical Demons though.

I made the connection upthread, but I had never looked to see if anyone else had ever done so. Best I can claim is independent invention.

The thing that will always bug me about Drow is how a (usually) subterranean race has dark skin. I know, I know the answer is 'lol magic' but it bugs me. If anything I always found the idea of Drow being pale and albino-like to be much creepier in appearance, with them having super pale, almost translucent skin, stringy white hair (which somewhat hint at cobweb) and either red eyes or, even more creepy, glassy eyes like a spider to be much more conceptually fitting.

Quote from: S'mon;1064141I KNEW someone would say that.

I have severe reactions to spider venom. I lived in an area where spiders could fly and liked to gather together for who knows why. So yeah. I would. :eek:

Next setting I do. Drow are going to be straight-up spider people.

If they had gone the albino route then we would now be talking about how the SJWs are all "Waaa waaa! Evil Albino trope is racist!"

WOTC should have left them blue or purple.

The problem with the drow is that they are pigeonholed. Dark elves in the rest of fantasy fiction are remarkably diverse, but the drow are stuck in a rut.

Regarding their appearance, I always preferred to give them more diversity. The various suggestions for EverQuest dark elf designs I linked a while back were perfect for what I had in mind.

As for environment, I always figured that they could just as easily live in jungle or arctic or outer space environments. Anywhere harsh enough to justify their harsh culture that earns them the appellation of "dark." (As opposed to introducing wholly new races of elf who just so happen to be evil too, which I have seen a few times in the d20 era such as evil star elves, evil forest elves, evil winter elves, etc that were not dark elves.)

I had just as many ideas for making the other elves less generic, such as styling the wood elves after Magic's satyr-like Lorwyn elves and the high elves after the creepy elves from Hellboy 2.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1064122True, but she's postulating a true role flip, which simply may not be possible when women bear the young. But if we were going to say women take the men's roles, then they would also inherit the expectations on men from society.
A matriarchy in that sense may be biologically impossible.

Yep. This is the premise of Talislanta's Danuvians. They are a matriarchy with these very conceits. The women are larger and as a design adaptation (they were artificially created) they can mate with nearly any other race in the game but usually produce only females. Their males are usually smaller and physically weaker, while the females average 6'+ and are more powerful.

As an example of a "good" Matriarchy - they're a matriarchal meritocracy. As a warrior culture they extol physical prowess as well as intelligence and wisdom. The harsh realities of the world demand optimum results for their people - not just "might-makes-right".

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1064521The problem with the drow is that they are pigeonholed. Dark elves in the rest of fantasy fiction are remarkably diverse, but the drow are stuck in a rut.

Regarding their appearance, I always preferred to give them more diversity. The various suggestions for EverQuest dark elf designs I linked a while back were perfect for what I had in mind.

As for environment, I always figured that they could just as easily live in jungle or arctic or outer space environments. Anywhere harsh enough to justify their harsh culture that earns them the appellation of "dark." (As opposed to introducing wholly new races of elf who just so happen to be evil too, which I have seen a few times in the d20 era such as evil star elves, evil forest elves, evil winter elves, etc that were not dark elves.)

I had just as many ideas for making the other elves less generic, such as styling the wood elves after Magic's satyr-like Lorwyn elves and the high elves after the creepy elves from Hellboy 2.

They're only pigeonholed if you as a GM allow them to wallow in it without the assumption ANYONE in the Drow society doesn't have a "better idea" than the shitshow they're living.

That *unto* itself is enough for an epic campaign.

Edit: the issue I have with applying Problemitization to gaming - in any form - is it assumes the problem isn't there to be dealt with as a function of the game itself, rather than to worry about people's neurotic perceptions of themselves they project into the game based on superficial assumptions.

Quote from: tenbones;1064537They're only pigeonholed if you as a GM allow them to wallow in it without the assumption ANYONE in the Drow society doesn't have a "better idea" than the shitshow they're living.

That *unto* itself is enough for an epic campaign.

Edit: the issue I have with applying Problemitization to gaming - in any form - is it assumes the problem isn't there to be dealt with as a function of the game itself, rather than to worry about people's neurotic perceptions of themselves they project into the game based on superficial assumptions.

Did you read my post? I wasn't referring the "problematic" elements at all, so your response doesn't really make sense. By your line of logic you are implicitly suggesting that I run, among other possible interpretations, a campaign in which the drow try to whiten their skin. I certainly hope you weren't suggesting that, because if you don't understand what is wrong with that statement then nothing I say will enlighten you.

I thought we were past the alt-right anti-SJW ramblings by now. I get the impression you have lived a very sheltered life and are ill-informed about how prejudice affects people in the USA. Despite what a bunch of propaganda machines on Youtube are claiming, the modern era is not an egalitarian wonderland under attack by "cultural marxists" or whatever other euphemism is being used for jews this week. The USA still has massive social injustices and it ain't improving any time soon. Our political parties are treated like sports teams by a populace devoid of coherent ideology or any understanding of policy. Things are improving, but the societal ills are still appalling.

But that's irrelevant to the way I want to portray my dark elves. Rather than rely on lazy static D&D tropes, I prefer to use the new ideas presented in fantasy media outside the D&D circlejerk. Like dark elves who are not black-skinned, do not live underground, are not matriarchal, do not wear BDSM gear in public, blah blah blah. D&D tropes got tiresome a long time ago.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1064557I get the impression you have lived a very sheltered life and are ill-informed about how prejudice affects people in the USA. Despite what a bunch of propaganda machines on Youtube are claiming, the modern era is not an egalitarian wonderland under attack by "cultural marxists" or whatever other euphemism is being used for jews this week.

You're a couple years old on the PC talking point with cultural Marxist. Current version is that Globalist is a euphemism for Jew, so anyone opposing Globalism is anti-Semitic. I guess those Occupy Wall Street guys were a bunch of Nazis.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1064557Did you read my post? I wasn't referring the "problematic" elements at all, so your response doesn't really make sense. By your line of logic you are implicitly suggesting that I run, among other possible interpretations, a campaign in which the drow try to whiten their skin. I certainly hope you weren't suggesting that, because if you don't understand what is wrong with that statement then nothing I say will enlighten you.

I was speaking euphemistically. I don't pretend to know what you specifically do at your table. My direct response to your assertion that the "Drow are pigeonholed".

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1064557I thought we were past the alt-right anti-SJW ramblings by now. I get the impression you have lived a very sheltered life and are ill-informed about how prejudice affects people in the USA.

Are you honest enough with yourself to admit if this is your impression of me, that if I told you the actual truth of my background you'd question whatever instincts led you to this impression? If you're game, I am. But you're not gonna like the answer.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1064557Despite what a bunch of propaganda machines on Youtube are claiming, the modern era is not an egalitarian wonderland under attack by "cultural marxists" or whatever other euphemism is being used for jews this week. The USA still has massive social injustices and it ain't improving any time soon. Our political parties are treated like sports teams by a populace devoid of coherent ideology or any understanding of policy. Things are improving, but the societal ills are still appalling.

So... you should re-read my post. I was pretty specific. In fact, I was *really* specific. Here I'll quote myself

Quote from: Tenbonesthe issue I have with applying Problemitization to gaming - in any form - is it assumes the problem isn't there to be dealt with as a function of the game itself, rather than to worry about people's neurotic perceptions of themselves they project into the game based on superficial assumptions.

Where in the world did you decide to conflate what I posted - bolded for emphasis on the actual subject-matter pertinent to this thread, to the hyperbolic rant that you posted that steamrolls every bit of nuance, every bit of discussion on what the thread is about? You realize the entire point of the discussion is to figure out if the Drow are actually a "problem"? My point is - "to whom" and "why"? Your rant seems to preclude your own assumptions that do not apply to me.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1064557But that's irrelevant to the way I want to portray my dark elves. Rather than rely on lazy static D&D tropes, I prefer to use the new ideas presented in fantasy media outside the D&D circlejerk. Like dark elves who are not black-skinned, do not live underground, are not matriarchal, do not wear BDSM gear in public, blah blah blah. D&D tropes got tiresome a long time ago.

But... Drow *are* part of the D&D circlejerk. No one is disputing that. No one even *said* that. No one is denying you can't make Drow any color under the rainbow you want. No one is saying you can't give them tails, no one is saying you can't give them hooves. No one is saying you can't make them live in the clouds on flying islands. No one is saying *anything* about what you can't do. You can do any of those. Hell do them all simultaneously - but the fact is - what you and I do with Drow, have *zero* impact on how WotC presents them.

What we are discussing is whether Drow as presented are "problematic". I say no.

At no point am I telling anyone what they can/can't do with the Drow at their table.

Quote from: tenbones;1064537They're only pigeonholed if you as a GM allow them to wallow in it without the assumption ANYONE in the Drow society doesn't have a "better idea" than the shitshow they're living.

That *unto* itself is enough for an epic campaign.

Edit: the issue I have with applying Problemitization to gaming - in any form - is it assumes the problem isn't there to be dealt with as a function of the game itself, rather than to worry about people's neurotic perceptions of themselves they project into the game based on superficial assumptions.

Greetings!

Yeah, brother! That boggles my mind as well. As far as the whole fucked up Drow society having in-game problems, yeah, I've had different Drow city-states respond differently, in point of fact, the males respond differently. Lolth, being the bad-ass spider queen has of course, immense powers. I get that the Drow are inspired by the real-world idea from female spiders devouring the male spider.
(As a side note, in my office library, I have a favoured animal book. In the insect section, it discusses how the female Preying Mantis will grab onto the male Preying Mantis when they are mating, and she proceeds to bite his head off with her mandibles, and eat him. In the moments she is biting his head off, the male goes into a frenzy, and deposits even more sperm into the female, thus ensuring a higher rate of pregnancy and ensuing offspring. It always makes me think, damn, couldn't the Mantis have a more agreeable mating process? LOL. But, that's how they do it, so apparently it isn't unheard of certainly in the insect world).

I'm always aware of history, anthropology, and politics though, too. Unlike spiders and Mantis, humans, the Drow Elves, etc. are humanoids, and social creatures. Drow males, typically being warriors, rogues and especially mages--are in a prime position to make the female drow's lives a living hell, one way or another. So, I often assume that underneath the veneer of female priestess domination in Drow society, the males have leveraged a far deeper level of respect, authority and power than outsiders are typically ever able to realize. So, while the Drow priestesses still rule a Matriarchal Theocracy, at least in my campaign, it doesn't mean that the male Drow haven't actually made political, social progress, and thus enforce some political and social changes that mitigate some of the chaos and female stupidity. I mean, when looking at all the stupid sex games, the constant, uncontrolled hedonism, the constant vendettas and assination wars going on, the little personal hatreds going on between all the Drow priestesses and their Matriarchs--plus them killing any male Drow that get "uppity"--well, it becames seeming impossible to imagine that the Drow City States could ever barely manage to function, let alone actually accomplish anything beyond their own borders. Thus, in my campaign I have the Drow City States still being Matriarchal Theocracies, but often times the Males have formed stronger guilds, more powerful warrior and rogue societies which have enforced concessions of social and political power on the females. The males typically have various "high councils" which wield immense political power that the Matriarchs are forced to deal with in a pragmatic and cooperative manner. Thus, there isn't as much stupidity going on, and the Drow city-states can actually function reasonably well, and even do so where they can form a consistent military and political threat to the surface world.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1064566Greetings!

Yeah, brother! That boggles my mind as well. As far as the whole fucked up Drow society having in-game problems, yeah, I've had different Drow city-states respond differently, in point of fact, the males respond differently. Lolth, being the bad-ass spider queen has of course, immense powers. I get that the Drow are inspired by the real-world idea from female spiders devouring the male spider.
(As a side note, in my office library, I have a favoured animal book. In the insect section, it discusses how the female Preying Mantis will grab onto the male Preying Mantis when they are mating, and she proceeds to bite his head off with her mandibles, and eat him. In the moments she is biting his head off, the male goes into a frenzy, and deposits even more sperm into the female, thus ensuring a higher rate of pregnancy and ensuing offspring. It always makes me think, damn, couldn't the Mantis have a more agreeable mating process? LOL. But, that's how they do it, so apparently it isn't unheard of certainly in the insect world).

Sure. Drow are very much part of the D&D cultural pantheon. In fact, I'd pretty much say they're one of the most iconic antagonist cultures in the game. It's perfectly natural for those of us to tinker with the assumptions of Drow, Githyanki, Orcs, Elvs, Humans, whatever... as much as we want. The point being - they represent an antagonistic culture with which to contrast the baseline of the game, which normally doesn't assume you're running an evil-ass game in the Underdark.

But you could! Or you could bring the Underdark to the PC's. Or the PC's to the Underdark. And you can get some really quality gaming either making those changes organically, or challenging the PC's assumptions and have those changes already made when the PC's encounter them.

Quote from: SHARK;1064566I'm always aware of history, anthropology, and politics though, too. Unlike spiders and Mantis, humans, the Drow Elves, etc. are humanoids, and social creatures. Drow males, typically being warriors, rogues and especially mages--are in a prime position to make the female drow's lives a living hell, one way or another. So, I often assume that underneath the veneer of female priestess domination in Drow society, the males have leveraged a far deeper level of respect, authority and power than outsiders are typically ever able to realize. So, while the Drow priestesses still rule a Matriarchal Theocracy, at least in my campaign, it doesn't mean that the male Drow haven't actually made political, social progress, and thus enforce some political and social changes that mitigate some of the chaos and female stupidity. I mean, when looking at all the stupid sex games, the constant, uncontrolled hedonism, the constant vendettas and assination wars going on, the little personal hatreds going on between all the Drow priestesses and their Matriarchs--plus them killing any male Drow that get "uppity"--well, it becames seeming impossible to imagine that the Drow City States could ever barely manage to function, let alone actually accomplish anything beyond their own borders. Thus, in my campaign I have the Drow City States still being Matriarchal Theocracies, but often times the Males have formed stronger guilds, more powerful warrior and rogue societies which have enforced concessions of social and political power on the females. The males typically have various "high councils" which wield immense political power that the Matriarchs are forced to deal with in a pragmatic and cooperative manner. Thus, there isn't as much stupidity going on, and the Drow city-states can actually function reasonably well, and even do so where they can form a consistent military and political threat to the surface world.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Exactly!!! No RPG game culture is so fleshed out by fiat that it can't be examined *as written* where a GM can't figure out what is the sinew that allows these hierarchies to exist? That's part of the fun of world-building. To the specifics of what you said - much of this has actually been done already in the Realms (which means it's likely true in other settings by assumption) - not all Drow cities are the same. Not all Drow cities worship Lolth. Not all Drow cities follow the same rules. There are obvious *reasons* for these, but those reasons are addressed in how that particular city operates.

None of these scenarios deviate from canon - You can find examples of these outliers in pretty much all of the established Drow books that have been written in all of the various editions of D&D... and yes, including the Drizzt novels. (and of course 3rd party products). But it doesn't change the realities of Drow as presented. It only qualifies these places in terms of WotC's primary settings as outliers.

Quote from: tenbones;1064564Are you honest enough with yourself to admit if this is your impression of me, that if I told you the actual truth of my background you'd question whatever instincts led you to this impression? If you're game, I am. But you're not gonna like the answer.

Try not to take it personally. The current political climate made me paranoid of falling into the anti-sjw-to-alt-right pipeline and I just spent the last month suffering insomnia. Anybody who tries to deny basic observations like "prejudice is alive and well" or "D&D has colonial inspiration" trips my spidey sense. China has very disturbing views regarding "white liberals" and Canadian vloggers keep claiming Britain has a problem with Muslim immigrants even though most immigrants are Polish. I can't give anybody from any country a free pass on my paranoia meter.

One of the big considerations about Drow culture, outside of the inherent demon-worship etc. are the environmental factors required to maintain a civilization the size of the various Drow cities down in the Underdark.

Cave-systems are *insanely* poor places to live in large populations. They typically don't have enough remotely enough food and water-sources to supply the populaces that Drow live at without *tremendous* amounts of cruelty.

I have no evidence that any of the early Drow writers fundamentally understood this. But even without demon-worshipping and assuming you hand-waved water availability - which is easy to do in the ubiquitous Hollow-Earth Underdark... there would be required a fantastical amount of slave-labor to produce enough food to maintain a virtual immortal population that by the conceits of the setting suffer from crazy levels of attrition that the Drow do.

I wrote an Underdark book (I wish I had more time to do it - but it was a fast turn-around) and one of the big considerations was the barren environment of cave-systems in general. In reality, Drow would likely have to live at much smaller population levels. But even Menzoberranzan which is sporting 60k - 98% of them are Drow. 40k of them are slaves - which is about right given their culture and size. But the kicker is Menzo is considered a "MID-SIZED" city. There are cities - like Ched Nasad which were double that size, and still others even larger.

The logistics of maintaining such places at that scale in a place like the Underdark would requre *insane* levels of cruelty. You could mitigate a lot of this with magic - but not much. And arguably nor should you - just understanding any of these details is excellent gaming fodder. It makes you realize the delicate balance of the environment upon which the Drow house of cards firmly hangs... but it's still a House of Cards. you just need to know which one to tip.

If anything - the Drow are far less evil in presentation than they *should* be to justify their own existence. That should be a scary thought.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1064572Try not to take it personally. The current political climate made me paranoid of falling into the anti-sjw-to-alt-right pipeline and I just spent the last month suffering insomnia. Anybody who tries to deny basic observations like "prejudice is alive and well" or "D&D has colonial inspiration" trips my spidey sense. China has very disturbing views regarding "white liberals" and Canadian vloggers keep claiming Britain has a problem with Muslim immigrants even though most immigrants are Polish. I can't give anybody from any country a free pass on my paranoia meter.

I'm not taking it personally. I'm taking it as you present it. You're projecting a projection of what you believe the creators of D&D must have projected when they invented this game.

That the things you cited exist is *irrelevant* to me for the purposes of this thread - but only insofar as one is willing to say implicitly that is what you believe is in play here. At which point you should ask yourself - are what those things those Chinese Canadians are saying true? Is there any validity to what they're saying?

And if so - why do you think it's a problem as it pertains to elf-games? Because I can assure you - there is probably an ideological thread that connects these ideas. And that ideology seems to be on your side, not mine. If you want to talk about collectivism vs individualism on the personal level, or globalism vs. nationalism in the plural level, go make a thread on Pundit's forum, I'm game.

I get that your paranoid because of what you believe and project onto what you see. But I think what's missing in your perspective, if your former post is a soft-indicator is context. But build that thread - and I'll happily go over there. Should be fun.