Quote from: tenbones;1062904What is "moderate" about this. To what degree are women and blacks offended by Drow as written in D&D. Seriously. Are you saying that outside of SJW's and the extremely fringe elements of minorities that drink from the same trough in gaming - that *this* is a real issue?

My wife is mildly offended by the notion that adults would sit around for hours, pretending to be elves in a magical kingdom chasing down trolls to steal their gold. Gets me out of the house, though, so she tolerates it.

I an not saying that the drow offend me or that I know innately what is and is not offensive. I have seen black and female commentators criticize some aspects of the drow without being frothing SJWs like you seem to think.

I linked very non-hostile articles discussing how to tweak the drow to be less so without rendering them unrecognizable.

Dark elves in Norse myth were not literally dark skinned. They were dwarves. I have said this already.

If thinking the drow need some updating for modern markets is SJW by your standards, I really do not know what to say back. Is this forum a haven for the right or not?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1062952I an not saying that the drow offend me or that I know innately what is and is not offensive. I have seen black and female commentators criticize some aspects of the drow without being frothing SJWs like you seem to think.

I have seen black and female RPG fans either not care, or think the racist/sexist criticism are dumb. Which demographic should we cater to?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1062952I an not saying that the drow offend me or that I know innately what is and is not offensive. I have seen black and female commentators criticize some aspects of the drow without being frothing SJWs like you seem to think.

At no point did I accuse you of being offended. I specifically asked *who* are these people? Because there is nothing that exists that people enjoy *someone* doesn't find objectionable - especially these days. I'm trying to ascertain the degree and amount and the reasons why anyone would find the Drow as presented objectionable - and to whom and to what degree should, if at all, anyone else should agree?

You said specifically

QuoteI think that, from a moderate perspective, the way the drow are written can and does offend women and black folks.

"Can and Does" and "Folks" is murky waters for making such a claim, insofar that those that don't find it offensive (largely because it's all fiction in an elf-game) - by direct comparison are much larger and seem to be reasonably able to state that fiction-is-fiction. I'm trying to figure out "who, what, why, and how much?" of this is even real. Because making such a claim ignores the possibility that such opinions are ludicrious, if I'm being generous and I'm pretty goddamn generous when its comes to stuff.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1062952I linked very non-hostile articles discussing how to tweak the drow to be less so without rendering them unrecognizable.

But I see no reason to do any of these until these other questions are answered. I found the reasoning in those links spurious in their attempts at presenting their case. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt you don't seriously believe any of this.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1062952Dark elves in Norse myth were not literally dark skinned. They were dwarves. I have said this already.

But D&D isn't supposed to be a direct translation of Norse myth. And wtf does Drow having *black* skin have to do with anything?  Humans don't have black/blue/indigo skin. This is an extremely neurotic leap of ill-logic.  Not to mention - if they were a direct lift of Norse mythos - wouldn't that be "problemetized" because once again we're using White People Myths instead of BI-POC myths? Where does the crazy-train stop?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1062952If thinking the drow need some updating for modern markets is SJW by your standards, I really do not know what to say back. Is this forum a haven for the right or not?

I'm TOTALLY up for changing the Drow. Tell me what and WHY first. Let's not skip that last part. You've already labeled it "problematic" insufficiently for me - and a lot of others. Don't try to tie both ideas together as if they're the same thing. Change for change's sake is one thing. Change because someone wants "Right Think" perspective in order to eliminate another perspective entirely is quite different.

Edit: So what is the precise color palette code when a shade of whitish moves into the Ethnically sensitive range? I confess my own POC-Lore is deficient in this area... but I guess it might stem from the fact I'm in the Yellow Shade Tradition, not the Black and White one. I asked my local Yellow Shade Magistrate if we have something similar with Nose-extension length and width ratio, as well as Eye Shape anglularity - they just stared at me like I was stupid. So I guess the answer is no.

Quote from: sureshot;1062903It's classic lose one own self respect to be part of the cool kids club. I saw it in high school with the various cliques. Then with some of my ex-friends who only wanted to be around the cooler friends. I can't respect that choice and left that kind of bullshit back in high school.

Well it's not like they teach critical thinking in High-School...

And parents should pick up that slack.

Quote from: SHARK;1062769Greetings!

That's right, my friend. In my campaigns, I've had Drow Elves interbreeding with Demons forever. It has always really made sense. At least in 5E, I hate the Tieflings. I don't hate the concept of a culture of human/demon hybrids, or obviously Drow Elf/Demon hybrids. Many races work exceedingly well with such flavour.

I just get bothered when they make demon hybrids front and center in the official rules for *player characters*--and make them extra special with angsty snowflake sauce that just grinds me to no end. LOL.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yep. I always want to lampshade the "evil but not really" vibe the Tieflings give off.

Quote from: HorusArisen;1062861Hmm I like the idea of Drow being demon/elf crossbreed. Lolth the Demon Queen returns.

May nick this idea.

It meshed perfectly with thoughts I had for the "deep history" of the drow and their Most Common Patron. Today, her name is spelled Lolth. Back when, it was spelled Lloth, which strikes me as a hide-in-plain-sight corruption of an older, and more widely known name...

Quote from: tenbones;1062957At no point did I accuse you of being offended. I specifically asked *who* are these people? Because there is nothing that exists that people enjoy *someone* doesn't find objectionable - especially these days. I'm trying to ascertain the degree and amount and the reasons why anyone would find the Drow as presented objectionable - and to whom and to what degree should, if at all, anyone else should agree?

You said specifically

"Can and Does" and "Folks" is murky waters for making such a claim, insofar that those that don't find it offensive (largely because it's all fiction in an elf-game) - by direct comparison are much larger and seem to be reasonably able to state that fiction-is-fiction. I'm trying to figure out "who, what, why, and how much?" of this is even real. Because making such a claim ignores the possibility that such opinions are ludicrious, if I'm being generous and I'm pretty goddamn generous when its comes to stuff.




But I see no reason to do any of these until these other questions are answered. I found the reasoning in those links spurious in their attempts at presenting their case. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt you don't seriously believe any of this.



But D&D isn't supposed to be a direct translation of Norse myth. And wtf does Drow having *black* skin have to do with anything?  Humans don't have black/blue/indigo skin. This is an extremely neurotic leap of ill-logic.  Not to mention - if they were a direct lift of Norse mythos - wouldn't that be "problemetized" because once again we're using White People Myths instead of BI-POC myths? Where does the crazy-train stop?



I'm TOTALLY up for changing the Drow. Tell me what and WHY first. Let's not skip that last part. You've already labeled it "problematic" insufficiently for me - and a lot of others. Don't try to tie both ideas together as if they're the same thing. Change for change's sake is one thing. Change because someone wants "Right Think" perspective in order to eliminate another perspective entirely is quite different.

Edit: So what is the precise color palette code when a shade of whitish moves into the Ethnically sensitive range? I confess my own POC-Lore is deficient in this area... but I guess it might stem from the fact I'm in the Yellow Shade Tradition, not the Black and White one. I asked my local Yellow Shade Magistrate if we have something similar with Nose-extension length and width ratio, as well as Eye Shape anglularity - they just stared at me like I was stupid. So I guess the answer is no.

Greetings!

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!! Oh, my god. I choked on my coffee reading this, Tenbones. Excellent post, brother. Your Yellow Shade stuff is just awesomely funny! I love your analysis on this kind of stuff. Tenbones, you really show a good, sharp grasp of the philosophical points that the SJW's try and get wormy on--and you hammer them on it. Topping it off with great humour as icing. LOL!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Here are links explaining both why and how to tweak the drow:

http://knighterrantjr.blogspot.com/2017/11/the-problem-with-drow.html
http://theotherside.timsbrannan.com/2010/03/drow-should-be-lawful-evil-among-other.html
http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2014/01/27/ravenflight-part-1-my-halflings-elves-and-dwarves-are-different/
https://www.geeknative.com/19332/drow-a-non-racist-alternative/
https://zaewen.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/tropebusting-matriarchies-in-gaming-and-sci-fifantasy/
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eqnlandmark/index.php?threads/which-skin-tone-do-you-find-most-appealing-for-the-dark-elves-images-in-blog.41631/page-3#post-437454

I personally find some aspects of the drow unsavory because of what it implies about the fantasy world physics, like the association of race, appearance and morality. From a biological perspective it makes little sense for drow to be black and I have no idea how they avoid rickets. From an aesthetic perspective a variety of skin tones like snow white, violet, indigo, night black, red, etc as in the everquest forum post make drow look cooler and more exotic to me.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1062971Here are links explaining both why and how to tweak the drow:

http://knighterrantjr.blogspot.com/2017/11/the-problem-with-drow.html?m=1
http://theotherside.timsbrannan.com/2010/03/drow-should-be-lawful-evil-among-other.html?m=1
http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2014/01/27/ravenflight-part-1-my-halflings-elves-and-dwarves-are-different/
https://www.geeknative.com/19332/drow-a-non-racist-alternative/
https://zaewen.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/tropebusting-matriarchies-in-gaming-and-sci-fifantasy/
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eqnlandmark/index.php?threads/which-skin-tone-do-you-find-most-appealing-for-the-dark-elves-images-in-blog.41631/page-3#post-437454

I personally find some aspects of the drow unsavory because of what it implies about the fantasy world physics, like the association of race, appearance and morality. From a biological perspective it makes little sense for drow to be black and I have no idea how they avoid rickets. From an aesthetic perspective a variety of skin tones like snow white, violet, indigo, night black, red, etc as in the everquest forum post make drow look cooler and more exotic to me.

No thank you.

Here's an image example: http://i.imgur.com/eNTh4wg.jpg

Quote from: RandyB;1062964It meshed perfectly with thoughts I had for the "deep history" of the drow and their Most Common Patron. Today, her name is spelled Lolth. Back when, it was spelled Lloth, which strikes me as a hide-in-plain-sight corruption of an older, and more widely known name...

:eek::eek::eek:

Wow!! I never did spot that one before. Hats off to you, sir!

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1062974Here's an image example: http://i.imgur.com/eNTh4wg.jpg

Very sexist and exploitave.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1062974Here's an image example: http://i.imgur.com/eNTh4wg.jpg

3/10 would not bang

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1062971From a biological perspective it makes little sense for drow to be black and I have no idea how they avoid rickets.

"I'll take 'Real-World Science Does Not Apply In D&D-World' for $600, Alex."

"This substance is produced by the skin of real-world humans and is important to their good health, but is not found in many settings using fantastic biology, such as the Four Humours."

"What is vitamin D?"

"Correct!"

From a biological perspective nothing whatsoever makes sense about D&D.