Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1062684The way that drow women show skin but drow men do not

This is the first I've ever heard of this supposed trope.

Anyway the drow females are sexually predatory because female spiders are supposedly sexually predatory, the 'black widow' devouring her mate after copulation.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1062684I don't care what the crazy SJWs think about censorship. I think that, from a moderate perspective, the way the drow are written can and does offend women and black folks.

Firstly, the default assumption in typical D&D fiction is that the drow are black because they are evil or vice versa. This isn't challenged unless you bring in less famous campaign settings like Eberron or rely on homebrewed elves of color. Of course this will offend black people.

Secondly, the way the drow matriarchy is written isn't a reversal of the patriarchy or a unique government that never existed in reality. Several aspects of it are distinctly ironic, as in you would not really expect a true matriarchy to display those characteristics because they are distinctly patriarchal in origin (e.g. men do all the work, women are catty, women show lots of skin whereas men don't, etc).

I'm not saying we should get rid of those aspects, but we could certainly try to mitigate their overwhelming influence by not treating those aspects as the default.

For example, the aspect of modesty could certainly stand to be analyzed. The way that drow women show skin but drow men do not is, as far as I know, not directly analogous to any existing human culture except possibly to a reversal of Ancient Greek gender modesty. Modesty is an extremely broad topic and I cannot do it justice in one post.

[video=youtube_share;8UuwfeUh1VE]https://youtu.be/8UuwfeUh1VE[/youtube]

I think a true matriarchy would be so alien to most people, that it would be bewildering.

Quote from: S'mon;1062688This is the first I've ever heard of this supposed trope.

Anyway the drow females are sexually predatory because female spiders are supposedly sexually predatory, the 'black widow' devouring her mate after copulation.

I don't really pay much attention, but this probably varies immensely by artist.

The funny thing about the drow matriarchy is drow females are larger than the males...i.e. their ruling structure derives from physical dominance and sexual dimorphism, it's just the drow's dimorphism aligns opposite from other humanoids.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1062696The funny thing about the drow matriarchy is drow females are larger than the males...i.e. their ruling structure derives from physical dominance and sexual dimorphism, it's just the drow's dimorphism aligns opposite from other humanoids.

More importantly, the Drow are evil. (Whether racially innate or social construct, or both, is another discussion) Therefore the usual aspects of responsibility and authority are skewed. A Drow noble doesn't care about the hordes of disposable men at her command. But any "good" authority would, in principle, be responsible for the people they command.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1062691[video=youtube_share;8UuwfeUh1VE]https://youtu.be/8UuwfeUh1VE[/youtube]

I think a true matriarchy would be so alien to most people, that it would be bewildering.

Actually, there are some real life matriarchies.  They're still living in grass huts and using stone weapons.

My current favorite take on the drow is from Fantastic Heroes and Witchery, where they are a race of elf tieflings. IOW, taking their origin and cranking it up to 11.

Quote from: RandyB;1062758My current favorite take on the drow is from Fantastic Heroes and Witchery, where they are a race of elf tieflings. IOW, taking their origin and cranking it up to 11.

Greetings!

That's right, my friend. In my campaigns, I've had Drow Elves interbreeding with Demons forever. It has always really made sense. At least in 5E, I hate the Tieflings. I don't hate the concept of a culture of human/demon hybrids, or obviously Drow Elf/Demon hybrids. Many races work exceedingly well with such flavour.

I just get bothered when they make demon hybrids front and center in the official rules for *player characters*--and make them extra special with angsty snowflake sauce that just grinds me to no end. LOL.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1062691[video=youtube_share;8UuwfeUh1VE]https://youtu.be/8UuwfeUh1VE[/youtube]

I think a true matriarchy would be so alien to most people, that it would be bewildering.

Greetings!

"Can and does offend women and black folks"? Geesus. That is such bullshit. I have black friends--and women, too--that never, ever--not once--viewed the Drow Elves as being somehow "offensive" to them in any way. They viewed them simply as a super evil, depraved, magic race of wicked black elves that live deep underground. Full Stop. That doesn't have fuck all to do with "offending women or black folks." You have to have drank DEEP from the fucking feminist/post modernist fucking KOOLAID to even come up with a insane interpretation like that. That's right. You have to GO LOOKING for something to be offended by, and even then, you have to take that pathetic scrap and twist it into some fucking horrible pretzel to end up with an interpretation where you are somehow "offended" as a woman or a black person. You know what I'm saying? Give me a fucking break. The source material right there is so not offensive. Just fucking garden-variety good use of mythology and classic moral themes. Anyone that is educated beyond a drooling shoggoth level would comprehend that, you know?

That's what I hate about SJW's so much. They have been brain-fucked so hard with feminist/post modernist Koolaid to search out "offense" everywhere, and with everything, that they can't fucking think straight to save their life. It's corrupting our entire society, tragically. Now this SJW bullshit is even threatening to corrupt and fuck up our hobby.

God, doesn't this kind of nonsense make you want to pull your hair out, my friend? LOL

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Hmm I like the idea of Drow being demon/elf crossbreed. Lolth the Demon Queen returns.

May nick this idea.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1062684I don't care what the crazy SJWs think about censorship. I think that, from a moderate perspective, the way the drow are written can and does offend women and black folks.

I don't believe you.  If you you are offended by the drow, then occam's razor suggests you are of the perpetually aggrieved, not some 'moderate'.

QuoteFirstly, the default assumption in typical D&D fiction is that the drow are black because they are evil or vice versa. This isn't challenged unless you bring in less famous campaign settings like Eberron or rely on homebrewed elves of color. .

Or, get this. Maybe the Drow have black skins because they are inspired by the Svartalfar, the Dokkalfar and Myrkalfar... and any other subterranian fantasy creatures that are described as having dark or black skins because 'underground'.   Leaping to the most offensive possible interpretation doesn't sound very moderate at all.  

QuoteOf course this will offend black people

I didn't know you were the appointed spokesperson for black people.

QuoteSecondly, the way the drow matriarchy is written isn't a reversal of the patriarchy or a unique government that never existed in reality. Several aspects of it are distinctly ironic, as in you would not really expect a true matriarchy to display those characteristics because they are distinctly patriarchal in origin (e.g. men do all the work, women are catty, women show lots of skin whereas men don't, etc).

Now you are just bafflegarbing.  Did you miss a word, or perhaps a whole clause?  It isn't a reversal OR a unique government?  Ok, then...  by your own words here it is... not a reversal of patriarchy but IT IS a form of government that really existed in reality?   Pfgh. Actually, if you look at real historical patriarchies (say... ancient Rome), I can see some clear parallels to the Drow Matriarchy, but I'm hardly the deep and abiding expert on it that you seem to be.  Its amazing how many incoherent ideas you crammed into two sentences, I must admit, but it does seem the entire majority of your beef with the matriarchy is that... Drow women have 'freed the nipple' but make the drow Men wear shirts.  That is... incredibly shallow.

QuoteFor example, the aspect of modesty could certainly stand to be analyzed. The way that drow women show skin but drow men do not is, as far as I know, not directly analogous to any existing human culture except possibly to a reversal of Ancient Greek gender modesty. Modesty is an extremely broad topic and I cannot do it justice in one post.

Here is a thought for you: The Drow are a fantasy race in a made up game that is entirely optional to play, and rarely features in most of said optional games anyway. Rather than forcing every D&D writer to take on PHD level comparative anthropology studies before they make up a made up race for their made up fantasy world, you relax a little and stop looking for trivial excuses to force everyone else to stop having fun with sexy-evil elves so we don't hurt their feels by objectifying them.


I'd go on, but other posters have already begun calling out your pre-selected offenses that are entirely in your own imagination, so I'll leave the fine work to them.

A fantasy race that has nothing whatsoever to do with black people is "problematic" because they're dark. Meanwhile, basically every single Russian or German (which are real ethnicities) in the movies being evil is fine.

Nobody has any idea what they believe, they just want internet Good Boy Points for being outraged.

It's classic lose one own self respect to be part of the cool kids club. I saw it in high school with the various cliques. Then with some of my ex-friends who only wanted to be around the cooler friends. I can't respect that choice and left that kind of bullshit back in high school.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1062684I don't care what the crazy SJWs think about censorship. I think that, from a moderate perspective, the way the drow are written can and does offend women and black folks.

What is "moderate" about this. To what degree are women and blacks offended by Drow as written in D&D. Seriously. Are you saying that outside of SJW's and the extremely fringe elements of minorities that drink from the same trough in gaming - that *this* is a real issue?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1062684I'm not saying we should get rid of those aspects, but we could certainly try to mitigate their overwhelming influence by not treating those aspects as the default.

Exactly what is being influenced overwhelmingly by these things? What precisely is "the bad" thing about the Drow? That they're black? That the women show skin? That men don't show enough? To what degree?  Where is the demarcation line exactly? Who is the one that gets to decide this for the poor silent consumers that don't realize (or believe) these things are in fact innocuous and merely "whelmed"? And what is the negative impact it's actually having on what segment of *reality*?

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1062885A fantasy race that has nothing whatsoever to do with black people is "problematic" because they're dark. Meanwhile, basically every single Russian or German (which are real ethnicities) in the movies being evil is fine.

Nobody has any idea what they believe, they just want internet Good Boy Points for being outraged.

That's outrageous!