Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1062188The whole "civilization cannot exist without slavery" is a meaningless argument because it takes specifically Colombian-era slavery and retroactively applies it to all of history.

No, it doesn't. Forced labor is slavery. It doesn't magically stop being slavery because you found some difference between the way the Assyrians whipped their slaves and the way Southerners whipped their slaves, or because you discovered the Persians had a literate slave class, or whatever. What the left tries to do is set Colombian-era slavery apart from the rest of history by magnifying every difference so that it's portrayed as a sui generis historical evil, thus allowing us to excuse or even lionize non-European cultures as repositories of virtue and humanity prior to Big Bad Europe inventing the carrack and ruining the world. This is then used to demand that Western nations flagellate themselves into non-existence as penance for what is supposedly a great, unique historical evil. The fact is the bulk of agricultural work in history has been done under compulsion, frequently by conquered peoples.

QuoteAncient Egypt, for example, had laws prohibiting the mistreatment of slaves due to what I can only assume was a mixture of compassion and pragmatism (happy healthy slaves work better).

QuoteSlavery wasn't omnipresent either. The pyramids, for example, were constructed by guilds of paid laborers rather than slaves.

I can only guess that you're trying to argue Egyptian slavery wasn't really slavery with these two irrelevant factoids. Of course, the Americas both had laws about properly treating slaves and freemen doing things that weren't done with slaves, so it doesn't make the point you seem to think it does.

Quote from: S'mon;1062190Fantasy tends to demonize slavery ...while valorising feudalism, the actual basis of most pre modern economies.

Hence the frequent observation that the World of Greyhawk is more like "the wild west with swords and magic" than an actual medieval era. Nobody really wants to play in a game world where the masses of people are illiterate and unfree.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1062188The Drow are "problematic" in several ways, which I attribute to laziness and I believe are not particularly difficult to rectify. There are saner tumblr feminists out there that draw drow porn (particularly femdom and male/male), so it's something that can be done without also alienating existing players.

Really, if you want to world build with a particular agenda, that's your business. And I don't use the term agenda in a derogatory fashion. I often have an agenda when I DM. Like, wanting to emphasize desert survival in a Dark Sun game. I've said my piece about how I feel about Drow, and won't beat a dead horse.

Quote from: S'mon;1062190Fantasy tends to demonize slavery ...while valorising feudalism, the actual basis of most pre modern economies.

That's equally absurd, since many lords were jerks who abused their vassals. The ones who were not jerks included Vlad the Impaler, and just look at that epithet.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1062195No, it doesn't. Forced labor is slavery. It doesn't magically stop being slavery because you found some difference between the way the Assyrians whipped their slaves and the way Southerners whipped their slaves, or because you discovered the Persians had a literate slave class, or whatever. What the left tries to do is set Colombian-era slavery apart from the rest of history by magnifying every difference so that it's portrayed as a sui generis historical evil, thus allowing us to excuse or even lionize non-European cultures as repositories of virtue and humanity prior to Big Bad Europe inventing the carrack and ruining the world. This is then used to demand that Western nations flagellate themselves into non-existence as penance for what is supposedly a great, unique historical evil. The fact is the bulk of agricultural work in history has been done under compulsion, frequently by conquered peoples.




I can only guess that you're trying to argue Egyptian slavery wasn't really slavery with these two irrelevant factoids. Of course, the Americas both had laws about properly treating slaves and freemen doing things that weren't done with slaves, so it doesn't make the point you seem to think it does.

Then I misunderstood you. We seem to be in agreement.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1062197Hence the frequent observation that the World of Greyhawk is more like "the wild west with swords and magic" than an actual medieval era. Nobody really wants to play in a game world where the masses of people are illiterate and unfree.

This is one the things I emphasize in my world building. A generic D&D world should not emulate actual medieval Europe, but pulp fiction. The Wilderlands of High Fantasy is my go-to example.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1062217This is one the things I emphasize in my world building. A generic D&D world should not emulate actual medieval Europe, but pulp fiction. The Wilderlands of High Fantasy is my go-to example.

Yeah, I run my Wilderlands as much more post-apocalypse than feudal. Post-cyclic-apocalypse, really; the last big one was the Gnoll Times 250 years ago.

Quote from: S'mon;1062190Fantasy tends to demonize slavery ...while valorising feudalism, the actual basis of most pre modern economies.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1062197Hence the frequent observation that the World of Greyhawk is more like "the wild west with swords and magic" than an actual medieval era. Nobody really wants to play in a game world where the masses of people are illiterate and unfree.

I agree with both of these. What bugs me both in this thread and in the "presentism" thread is people who argue that old-school D&D has authentic medieval flavor, and that it is ruined by later editions and/or SJWs and their political correctness. For example, in post #26 of the other thread:

Quote from: Razor 007;1062036Just compare the artwork found in the D&D PHB, throughout the various editions of D&D.  Compare the 4E PHB to all those prior to it, and then compare the 5E PHB to the 4E PHB.  A pattern is there to see.  Less Medieval Flavor; More average WalMart shopper.

However, I do like the 5E game itself.

Quote from: jhkim;1062233I agree with both of these. What bugs me both in this thread and in the "presentism" thread is people who argue that old-school D&D has authentic medieval flavor, and that it is ruined by later editions and/or SJWs and their political correctness. For example, in post #26 of the other thread:

Are you saying there weren't any warrior babes in chainmail bikinis back in the 1200s?

Quote from: SHARK;1062137I often wonder, damn, how do they deal with the "Stupid Train" of the SJW's?

It's easy. You make the game table off limits to politics and get everyone to buy in.

My rule is simple. I don't fucking care if we agree on politics, STFU about politics at the table. Gaming is our escape during our free time.

Most people are good with that. If someone has to be 24/7 fucktard (of any political stripe), they get the boot.

I'm in LA so I either game with SJWs or I don't game at public venues like FLGS, Meetups or cons.

I'm sure the hardcore SJWs would never accept my rule, but most I've encountered are happy to have a politics-free space to toss dice.

Quote from: Omega;1062144Orcs in OD&D could be Chaotic or Neutral

The big advantage of Law / Neutral / Chaos is you don't have to deal with Good vs. Evil labels.

Lawfuls and Chaotics can exist in the same party...with tension, concern over betrayals, snarky banter and other good stuff. Good and Evils tend to just roll initiative.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1062157The bigger crime that all sides should get behind is that the second and third Matrix movies exist.

LOL! I love them for the action scenes, even I have to protect my brain from the plot bombs!

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1062177But my point here is you really can't please the SJWs, because you cannot portray history itself with strict, fact-driven rigor without coming under fire, reality is now a minefield when it comes to inspiration for fiction, at least if you want to please the screaming bluehair set. So IMO, the correct thing to do is not try.

You are right. SJWs don't have the numbers to justify pandering to them.

The internet, MSM and Hollywood wants to pretend SJWs are a massive group. They're not. "Get Woke, Go Broke" has been proven dozens of times because SJWs can't buy enough stuff to equal their overly amplified presence on social media.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1062195No, it doesn't. Forced labor is slavery. It doesn't magically stop being slavery because you found some difference between the way the Assyrians whipped their slaves and the way Southerners whipped their slaves, or because you discovered the Persians had a literate slave class, or whatever.

Of thats the case then from experience. modern factory work is still slavery. Its just gilded in a pretty little paycheck. And not just being treated like slaves. But as disposable slaves. Which is exactly how Games Workshop treats its non-managerial employees. Me and my dad have both seen factories that would rather let a worker be slowly ground in a machine rather than stop the damn thing and dissassemble it. And one of the people I worked with was trapped for two fucking hours in a grinder.

Quote from: Omega;1062239Of thats the case then from experience. modern factory work is still slavery. Its just gilded in a pretty little paycheck. And not just being treated like slaves. But as disposable slaves. Which is exactly how Games Workshop treats its non-managerial employees. Me and my dad have both seen factories that would rather let a worker be slowly ground in a machine rather than stop the damn thing and dissassemble it. And one of the people I worked with was trapped for two fucking hours in a grinder.

Employees - who are free to leave - are not slaves, and are often treated much worse than slaves, precisely because they're not property.

Quote from: S'mon;1062306Employees - who are free to leave - are not slaves, and are often treated much worse than slaves, precisely because they're not property.

Leave where? That is oft the problem.

Back on topic. Such as it is.

SJW insanity knows no bounds. Was going over a game review last month for a very old game and out of the blue the reviewer declared that the art on the rules cover was racist. What was this racist depiction? A Chinese person in traditional style robe and hat. Yeah. That was racist.

No.

What it was was mildly stereotypical. But an easily recognizable imagery is not racist. People have even bitched about Warhammer 40ks Orks as being "racist".

And so it goes

Quote from: Omega;1062314Leave where? That is oft the problem.

Back on topic. Such as it is.

SJW insanity knows no bounds. Was going over a game review last month for a very old game and out of the blue the reviewer declared that the art on the rules cover was racist. What was this racist depiction? A Chinese person in traditional style robe and hat. Yeah. That was racist.

No.

What it was was mildly stereotypical. But an easily recognizable imagery is not racist. People have even bitched about Warhammer 40ks Orks as being "racist".

And so it goes

That's because 40k orks are British football hooligans. Ere we go!Ere we go! Ere we go!

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1062217That's equally absurd, since many lords were jerks who abused their vassals. The ones who were not jerks included Vlad the Impaler, and just look at that epithet.

To be fair, his subjects were FINE with that epithet. He was known for Impaling the Muslim invaders who were trying to conquer his lands (and all of Europe), not the subjects he was protecting.

Quote from: Omega;1062314Leave where? That is oft the problem.

The United States currently has a labor shortage. There are six million people collecting unemployment and over seven million posted jobs. Average wages are up 3.8% over last year and companies are offering signing bonuses of thousands of dollars to get people to come work for them.

Frankly, if you can just show up on time these days you can probably get just about any of those seven million jobs you'd care to apply for.

In terms of actual fantasy/history... plagues and similar mass depopulation generally proved very economically advantageous to the survivors as the labor shortage gave an edge to those whose labor was actually needed to keep civilization afloat.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1062236It's easy. You make the game table off limits to politics and get everyone to buy in.

My rule is simple. I don't fucking care if we agree on politics, STFU about politics at the table. Gaming is our escape during our free time.

Most people are good with that. If someone has to be 24/7 fucktard (of any political stripe), they get the boot.

I'm in LA so I either game with SJWs or I don't game at public venues like FLGS, Meetups or cons.

I'm sure the hardcore SJWs would never accept my rule, but most I've encountered are happy to have a politics-free space to toss dice.

Spinachcat - have you ever run into issues in your game that have nothing to do with actual real-world politics that an SJW player has gotten triggered over?

For example - and this happened at my table.

Player #1 is playing an Imperial Elf (Elf from the Imperial Navy of Spelljammer - super bigotted against other races by default. Not necessarily full-on racist, but definitely looks down on everyone). So he's a mage and is called in on some big issue relating to a demon discovered stalking the city.


Player #2 is a real-world SJW, male-feminist type. Playing a happy-go-lucky halfling, he's embroiled some halfling-clan drama where he realizes the local thieves guild that's trying to recruit him is actually comprised of halfling family members. It's really a side-story that has nothing to do with the rest of the party per-se.

Player #2 decides to enlist he aid of the party, and Player #1 who is dealing with a *much* bigger issue tells him something to the effect of "Your family of halflings are petty thieves? How shocking. Run along, and come back to me once I'm done dealing with real problems." and says so in a really demeaning tone (roleplaying. The guy's character IS supposed to be an asshole. A very competent asshole).

Player #2 pulls me aside after the game and tells me he doesn't think he can play with Player #1 anymore because the player is clearly racist. He couldn't differentiate between the PC and the Player. And worse - he really believed it. (We sacked him from the group two sessions later).

You never had anything like that happen? Or have an SJW player get triggered because things like slavery, bigotry, and even outright racism might exist in your game? This same SJW guy was triggered that slavery was a big deal in Calimport where the game was set. I mentioned to him - technically all these Djinn and Efrit that the nobility had under their thumb were at best indentured servants... and that freaked him out too.

Edit: Same thing happened in my Underdark Campaign. I set it in a Drow city, and yeah it was Trigger-Central.

I don't care what the crazy SJWs think about censorship. I think that, from a moderate perspective, the way the drow are written can and does offend women and black folks.

Firstly, the default assumption in typical D&D fiction is that the drow are black because they are evil or vice versa. This isn't challenged unless you bring in less famous campaign settings like Eberron or rely on homebrewed elves of color. Of course this will offend black people.

Secondly, the way the drow matriarchy is written isn't a reversal of the patriarchy or a unique government that never existed in reality. Several aspects of it are distinctly ironic, as in you would not really expect a true matriarchy to display those characteristics because they are distinctly patriarchal in origin (e.g. men do all the work, women are catty, women show lots of skin whereas men don't, etc).

I'm not saying we should get rid of those aspects, but we could certainly try to mitigate their overwhelming influence by not treating those aspects as the default.

For example, the aspect of modesty could certainly stand to be analyzed. The way that drow women show skin but drow men do not is, as far as I know, not directly analogous to any existing human culture except possibly to a reversal of Ancient Greek gender modesty. Modesty is an extremely broad topic and I cannot do it justice in one post.