Honestly I think the problems lie on the other side of the fence.

The Drow are way cooler than elves.
The Drow are way sexier than elves and into some kinky shit.
The Drow are into spiders and spiders are yucky.  Heck tbp requires spoiler blocks on pictures of spiders.
The Drow are generally more powerful than elves, have better magic, and adamantium weapons.
The Drow are almost invisible in darkness because of their black skin.

Yeah, anyhow, my point, I suppose is that most of the so called negatives are why they're popular.  I don't buy into the theory that being liked and admired is a form of racism and bigotry.  It's like being called racist for thinking Michael Jordan is a great basketball player.

Quote from: sureshot;1060450I have mentioned it before I think a decent amount of the population suffers from some un-diagnosed form of mental illness. That or poor parenting with them just letting their children act out and do nothing because it might stunt their emotional growth. Or both imo. I was going home with my co-worker in the subway and neither of us gave the guy begging for cash money. He called my black worker in French "dirty immigrant". My co-worker has begun working out again and picture a fairly muscular 7 foot tall guy. Why would you insult the guy who by the way understands French. It's like they don't give a fuck or are mentally ill. Or both.

Don't forget "self medication" with substances controlled or otherwise.  Happily for gaming purposes it doesn't matter which of the three is involved.  I can just avoid all of them.

I will say that people who overcome the trifecta and drag themselves bodily into a better state are some of the most amazing people I have ever met.  Those can game with me anytime they want.

Do you think the Drow are "Problematic?" If so, in what ways?  No.

If you like the Drow, why do you like them? Truthfully, I do not like them. Partially the Drizzt effect (tm) and also the overplayed/overexposed effect.  I love the early stuff with Lloth and the fact they were largely unknown and mysterious and an evil twist on the good elves.  But that ship has sailed and now they are too common to be used as a mysterious enemy for me.

Do you use the Drow in your campaigns?Not really, maybe a one off necromancer or something like that, but definitely not as a recurring foe or focus.

Have you done anything bizarre with the Drow, or somehow made them different?  Sorry, no help.  See above, but the feel tired and overexposed to me.  The only interesting use I have put them to is to take them down a peg by serving as mindless drones for a power mad mindflayer (as if there is any other kind).  Seeing this ubercool dark elves as mere playthings for the big bad illithid worked pretty well to give him some instant street cred.

What it comes down to is an extreme lack of self-reflection and *non-understanding* on what ethics and morality are in regards to history and cultural development. You don't *need* to know these things to enjoy D&D, obviously. But the short-hand D&D uses for designation purposes, like "alignment" which it then broadstrokes over an entire culture or species, has settled in nicely with the moronic views of today's pathological Post-Modernist Left.

They love those big paint-brushes but lack the nuance to truly understand the concepts behind them. This is why I don't really need alignment, or use it much beyond the OSR conventions of it. It scours nuance out of the setting.

WHY are Goblins evil? Well for me it's because they're low-intelligence little savages that have a hard time understanding what it takes to create functional rules that can cause more robust and intricate civilizations that require more order to flourish. It's *that* simple. Doing chaotic and evil shit really just works for them because they don't fundamentally understand why land-rights, and civil-discourse, and rule of law, and commerce matter. It's not that hard. That their Deities reflect that is immaterial as no one is going on the cosmic adventure to interview Maglubiyet as to why he doesn't want his Goblin/Hobgoblin worshippers to have a great civilization. In fact he probably DOESN'T - much in the same way Vlaakith kills off Githyanki that get too powerful. Smart Goblins would be a potential threat at some point...

WHY are Drow evil? Because they live in the Underdark and they're deep into identity-politics and racial supremacy. They hate the surface elves for what they believe was done to them in the past, and frankly if truth be told, living in the Underdark in unsustainable numbers requires a *MASSIVE* amount of cruelty to sustain their lifestyle. Slaves, cannibalism, demon-sacrifices, cats-living-with-dogs, and playing the games of Lolth pretty much means you're going to have to be a *LITTLE* paranoid in order to maintain your position or move ahead without getting your throat cut. Does it *mean* you *have* to play those reindeer games? Nope. Doesn't mean you have to be a little bitch-ass like Drizzt either. Of course you still get to pay the price of the social cost of your peoples too. Welcome to reality.

WHY are Orcs evil? Because they're too stupid to know they could things more efficiently. They sufficiently hate Elves for their presumed slights to their deity ages ago. So they too are racists - but who cares, they hate everyone. You want nuance? Use the Scro from Spelljammer. Still racist, but smart. Organized. They possess a *little* decorum. Militant, but not entirely savage. Klingons. They respect power and to a lesser extent guile. Are they evil? Culturally they still promote might-makes-right, so you're BOUND to do heinous shit to get ahead. But it's sufficiently possible, at least in Spelljammer - to get tired of that shit and move on. Doesn't mean people will trust you...

So yeah - I keep it all in context. SJWs don't understand context, because the truth is if they did, they'd realize their views *in practice* make them villains.

The drow cannot simultaneously be bad because they make fetishists feel bad and be bad because they're a canvas those very same fetishists project themselves onto.

Pick one of those two things to complain about and stick with that, you can't have both.

Quote from: David Johansen;1060476Honestly I think the problems lie on the other side of the fence.

The Drow are way cooler than elves.
The Drow are way sexier than elves and into some kinky shit.
The Drow are into spiders and spiders are yucky.  Heck tbp requires spoiler blocks on pictures of spiders.
The Drow are generally more powerful than elves, have better magic, and adamantium weapons.
The Drow are almost invisible in darkness because of their black skin.

Yeah, anyhow, my point, I suppose is that most of the so called negatives are why they're popular.  I don't buy into the theory that being liked and admired is a form of racism and bigotry.  It's like being called racist for thinking Michael Jordan is a great basketball player.

Replace Drow with "Ninja" and Spiders with "Octopus"... and you'll see some similarities that I'm sure fit much of the same vein.

And it's not the fact that you're admired and liked as being racist. The nuanced view is "FOR WHAT"? SJW's knee-jerk admire other races on principle (edit: specifically in relation to "white-America") and pretend to be supportive of them assuming they've all suffered some great injustice and colonial oppression free of context. To the point where they will excuse anything that culture might do in lieu of some historical incident practice - even if it's an extreme outlier.

Even positive assumptions are have racist outcomes for SJW's: see Asian Ivy League admission issues. It's not racist to point out Michael Jordan is a great basketball player. Yet for some reason it's racist to apply SJW desires for "equal racial representation" to basketball... This is because they don't *really* understand what their supposed beliefs actually mean in reality.

Quote from: David Johansen;1060476Honestly I think the problems lie on the other side of the fence.

The Drow are way cooler than elves.
The Drow are way sexier than elves and into some kinky shit.
The Drow are into spiders and spiders are yucky.  Heck tbp requires spoiler blocks on pictures of spiders.
The Drow are generally more powerful than elves, have better magic, and adamantium weapons.
The Drow are almost invisible in darkness because of their black skin.

Yeah, anyhow, my point, I suppose is that most of the so called negatives are why they're popular.  I don't buy into the theory that being liked and admired is a form of racism and bigotry.  It's like being called racist for thinking Michael Jordan is a great basketball player.

I am not a big drow fan, but this fits my experience. I had a player in a 4e FR game who loved playing her Lolth serving aspirant drow matriarch warlock. On stage there was nothing kinkier than the Elminster expy's hot tub. Was this OK because female player? Or problematic? I don't really care.

I think the highlight for her was when she betrayed the Matriarch of Ched Nasad her home city after they had fought together to defeat the Jaezred Chaussin  (egalitarian followers of Shar) and restored Matriarchy together, so that she could become Matriarch herself.

Quote from: tenbones;1060468But what if those things are my kink?

You owe me a new keyboard.

Quote from: Haffrung;1060470The vague allusions to sexual kink with the drow are related to slavery and torture, which most people regard as evil.

And some regard it as recreational, for others it's Tuesday.

Quote from: SHARK;1060262Do you think the Drow are "Problematic?"

[video=youtube;1jqfwvIACj8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jqfwvIACj8[/youtube]

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1060449This sounds like a mental illness.

That is because some of these loons are mentally ill. Or more aptly a-lot are instead just mentally stunted. Listening to them talk for even a short time makes that readily apparent. Then toss in social engineering newspeak and it gets worse and worse.

My kink is being problematic.

Quote from: David Johansen;1060476Honestly I think the problems lie on the other side of the fence.

The Drow are way cooler than elves.
The Drow are way sexier than elves and into some kinky shit.
The Drow are into spiders and spiders are yucky.  Heck tbp requires spoiler blocks on pictures of spiders.
The Drow are generally more powerful than elves, have better magic, and adamantium weapons.
The Drow are almost invisible in darkness because of their black skin.

Yeah, anyhow, my point, I suppose is that most of the so called negatives are why they're popular.  I don't buy into the theory that being liked and admired is a form of racism and bigotry.  It's like being called racist for thinking Michael Jordan is a great basketball player.

Black skin or fabric doesn't actually make you blend into darkness any better. It actually makes you stand out against the night sky. That is why real ninjas never actually wore black. They dressed like inconspicuous everymen.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1060511My kink is being problematic.

But what if someone found your being problematic kinky? :cool:

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1060513Black skin or fabric doesn't actually make you blend into darkness any better. It actually makes you stand out against the night sky. That is why real ninjas never actually wore black. They dressed like inconspicuous everymen.

Stop ruining awesome things with your historical truths! Now apologize!

Quote from: Omega;1060514But what if someone found your being problematic kinky? :cool:

That potentially ends with bodily fluids and bruises, no matter the direction it's taken.