Maybe they're problematic, but who cares? In a universe in which alignment actually exists, there could be races which are inherently evil. It isn't like the real world in many ways, and this is just one of them.

Problematic? No. Stupid? Yes. If you want evil elves, use Melniboneans the way that Moorcock intended.

In my campaigns, Drow are the cruel beings that Gygax portrayed in the original D and G series. They're dangerous, depraved, and utterly untrustworthy. They're D&D's Melnibonians.

The notion of Drow being racist is one of the most idiotic memes to emerge out of geek culture. Creatures of the earth were black in Nordic mythology. Fire giants, dwarves, etc. Those evil creatures were associated with the earth and with fire, and so were depicted as black because soil is black, as are ash and soot.  Dark elves have their origins in that folklore.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svart%C3%A1lfar

The fact some American gamers see black elves and can't help but think of African Americans is a damning testimony to their impenetrable ignorance.

Everybody is the hero of their own story. Including the Drow.

The alignments they have are what outsiders perceive them to be.

But from the Drow point of view? Their Alignment is entirely different.

On the one hand, those people are insane...but a stopped clock can be sort-of correct a couple times a day.

In this case, yes, the whole "if it's evil, it must be black" (not just the elves, but also dwarves, and it wouldn't surprise me if there are evil black halflings somewhere) absolutely can be interpreted in racist overtones. When I have a negro (to use CNN's word) at my table, and this comes up, I do apologize sincerely for it (as much as I hate PC), mention that this game has roots in the 70s, a very different world than today, and point out the fundamental stupidity of it (creatures living exclusively underground have a strong tendency towards albinism). I offer to make the "evil and black" creatures all albinos, but I ask that it all be kept as is, as whitewashing (hey look, a "white" word with evil connotations) history might cause us as a people to forget things we really should know.

So far, I've never had to use albino evil monsters to address this issue...that said, I take 30 seconds to address the above, then move on to having fun.

Quote from: danskmacabre;1060272No - they're not Problematic.
They're a made up race for made up worlds.

Bingo!!!

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1060312Everybody is the hero of their own story. Including the Drow.

The alignments they have are what outsiders perceive them to be.

But from the Drow point of view? Their Alignment is entirely different.

Not in my games.  Drow know they are evil.  They revel and exult in it.  To them Evil is the best alignment to be, but they don't think they are Good.


Unless they are Everyone drow, then they are just people.  Most drow are messed up underdark mutants though.

I know we were crapping all over Dragonlance in the other thread, but I will give them credit for making "Drow" just the elvish word for "Outcast" and the lone drow we encounter in the stories looked just like every other elf, but a key point of their story is that they did something so unspeakably evil they were cast out of elven society for it.

I've done something similar in my own world where the elves are a caste based society (which they refer to as the Celestial Hierarchy); high elves rule and commune with the gods, common elves are the soldiers and tradesmen and low elves are the common farmers/laborers. Dark elves (or Drow in the elven tongue) are those who have rejected their place in the Celestial Hierarchy and so live as outcasts (often hunted by Inquisitors because the elven religion teaches that elven souls reincarnate and they believe that by killing a dark elf it will be reborn back into its proper place in the Celestial Hierarchy in its next life).

Ironically, this makes the majority of PC adventuring elves dark elves since the role of adventurer generally falls outside the acceptable positions in elven society (nobles/soldiers on a crusade and religious missionaries might be involved in a specific series of adventures, but that's not the same as the typical wandering adventurer) while the forces of the Celestial Hierarchy often end up as opponents due to their 'elves are better and therefore should be in charge of everything' attitudes... its only been in the last twenty years that the elves of El-Phara have been forced to acknowledge the sovereignty of their non-elven neighbors within their own lands (prior to this they were prone to regular interventions for those other cultures' 'own good'), though this is more to due with the fact that elven numbers have proven static (as if their were a fixed number of elven souls available) while the non-elven realms surrounding them finally reached population levels sufficient to make elven intervention near-impossible rather than any sort of enlightenment on the part of the elven leaders).

GURPS Fantasy/Banestorm had a similar situation where dark elves were just the name of a secret society of elf racial supremacists, dark in the meaning of secret.  They tried to summon something that would kill all the orcs in the world.  They got humans.

I'm enjoying GMing the chaotic techno-magical Underdark-dwelling Vrilya in Michael Curtis' Stonehell - they clearly have the same Melnibonean roots as Drow, and their name presumably references Bulwer-Lytton Vrilya , but even then they don't have the accumulated baggage of D&D Drow.

Honestly, I don't do "alignment". It's totally unnecessary to me unless you're dealing with cosmic forces - like Gods. I can easily see how Drow living in the Underdark would have a cut-throat evil society as a means for existential survival.

Assuming the qualities of the under-dark are what we'd expect with typical fantasy-flair, it would be a hard place to sustain large communities without resorting to slavery. I accept that - their trading partners and neighbors in the Underdark all tacitly accept this. Or they're all blood-curdling enemies sometimes both. You could supplement your community with some agrarian activities, but it would be difficult at best.

Certainly it would be fun (and I'm currently doing this in a campaign project I'm working on) to create a Drow society that doesn't live like bog-standard Drow, but has to deal with all the shitty stuff living in the Underdark.

I think it's funny that people would call the Drow problematic when outside their clearly fantastical traits and assumptions - they have the same problems as most cultures living in an extreme environment at scale. (Menzo has tens of thousands of people and is considered "mid-sized"). Scale that up to a million like their larger cities and imagine how cruel that place would be?

But you know... "those people" that are triggered are looking for reasons to be triggered. As we all know.

40k Dark Eldar > D&D Drow

Quote from: SHARK;1060262Do you think the Drow are "Problematic?" If so, in what ways?

The only "problematic" thing is we haven't asskicked every fucknut who uses "problematic" in serious manner out of our hobby.

Quote from: SHARK;1060262If you like the Drow, why do you like them?

They're badass villains. Evil goddess / Spider Troops / Arrogant Elves is a great mix.

Quote from: SHARK;1060262Do you use the Drow in your campaigns?

Very rarely. I tend to prefer Man vs. Monster campaigns where Monsters aren't humans in costume. However, in Planescape, I will use all sorts of sentient inhumans wandering about Sigil and the planar towns. For me, that's where I've preferred the Drow.

Actually, the last time I used the Drow was in Gamma World. The last GW was directly compatible with D&D 4e so it was fun to port over monsters from the MM to GW, and the Drow stats with Dark Eldar figs and some spiders worked out great. I'd absolutely run that combo again.

Quote from: SHARK;1060262Have you done anything bizarre with the Drow, or somehow made them different?

All females are clerics and all males are driders. I don't have any Drizz't, but I have those who rebel against Lloth and ally with other Evil gods, mostly demons. Also, as Lloth can get killed by PCs (as we did in the Q series), there are whole prime material planes where Lloth is dead so her Drow find other vile gods to follow.

Quote from: tenbones;1060340Honestly, I don't do "alignment".

Burn the heretic!!!!

Quote from: SHARK;1060262If you like the Drow, why do you like them?

Do you use the Drow in your campaigns?

Have you done anything bizarre with the Drow, or somehow made them different?

I haven't done much with the drow in previous campaigns. For my upcoming campaign, I have made them distinctly different, as I touched on in another thread. The pre-made drow character that I made for a one-shot in this world had this description:

QuoteThe drow are sometimes accused of too much pride, but you have much to be proud of. Your people have woven swaths of the Underdark into elegant wonderlands, and your society is a model of equality and interdependence. Within the drow's web of social relations, everyone has a part to play. On the other hand, drow can be insular from outsiders, and are often misunderstood. Short-lived races can have trouble seeing time as the drow do.

You are a delver into the mysteries of magic, and are active in breaking out of the drow's insular culture to bring their magic and learning to the rest of civilization. You are free to do this, but have not been supported the way you like. It is your hope that if the Temple of the Elements can be restored, that it will be a place where drow learning is shared with the learning of other races.

So I wanted to keep the darkness and the spider themes for drow, along with general elvishness - while also making them genuinely good aligned.

I'm not satisfied with my take thus far, though. I thought that most of the other races in my world worked great, but adapting the drow was tough. I picture them as sort of the magical perfectionists who want everything done *right*, and a little frustrated at everyone else's haphazard way of doing things. "Just take fricking twenty years and do it *right* instead of just making a half-assed one in a few months."  On the other hand, I also would like them to be cool rather than annoying in play.

Quote from: tenbones;1060294Maybe elves' skin is just photo-reactive? More photons, lighter skin. Less photons darker skin.

I did that in a game.  The Drow were the race of elves from the land on the other side of the mirror.  In their land they have black hair and really pale skin.  When they cross into our world they appear in photo-negative.