People who whine about "Mother may I" and/or who see the GM as an enemy you need rules to "Protect" you from remind me of those Radical Feminists who think all sex is rape.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;1040299People who whine about "Mother may I" and/or who see the GM as an enemy you need rules to "Protect" you from remind me of those Radical Feminists who think all sex is rape.

The problem is that Amber is based on inter-player conflict, it's a game of political oneupsmanship, from the Auction for stats to the combat.  Mother May I on it's own isn't that bad, every RPG has it to every degree, but I don't like 'games' that rely on it.

And here's the thing, you're implying, but are completely mistaken, I'm usually the GM, I'm not the one competing against one, I personally object at the amount of work I'd have to do.  A die roll does two things, first, it helps simulate the random element of life that always happens, and takes a burden off my shoulders to help facilitate fun for the rest of the table.

Thing is, Amber is still a Storygame.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1040081Amber is what Mage the Ascension turned into, really.  Both games rely completely on the GM's interpretation of the world and it's 'reality'.  I remember a quote from somewhere, I think it was tongue in cheek, that if a game doesn't have rules for falling damage, it's not a real RPG.  There are zero benchmarks in doing activities other than conflicts with each other or the 'Elder' Amberites, which include several different versions of each of them, because not even Zelazny knew which one was the 'right' version, in fact, the book even claims it on page 121 that 'Zelazny doesn't say', that they don't know what about the setting is correct or not.  The entire GM's section is all about 'what ifs' or 'maybes?'

It's all up to the GM to decide everything.  It's a Mother May I to the extreme, even the 'Good Stuff'/'Bad Stuff', which is nothing more than supposed luck, is completely up to the whims of the GM.  Hope he likes you, otherwise, he'll screw you.  The entire game is based around inter-player conflict too.


Pundy, I'm going to call you out, after rereading my copy of Amber.  You rail a lot about 'Storygamers' and 'Storygaming', and yet, this favourite game of yours is THE Storygame of the 90's.

In several points in the Amber core book, it speaks to making character stories, page 122 has 'Story Composition'.  In the combat section it has a small bit on Combat as Story Telling, page 81.  The entire book is a manual on how to do a Storygame as per your personal definition.

You cannot justify this, you'll no doubt try, but damn, this is a 'Story Game' as you justify your hatred.

Holy shit your ridiculous resentment of me is really taking you to new levels of retardation.

First, there were multiple versions of the Elders specifically to address the whole question of the Unreliable Narrator, something YOU WERE JUST CLAIMING THE GAME DIDN'T ADDRESS. Because you're a fucking ignoramus who never read the game.

Second, the choices are made by the GM at the beginning of the campaign. That's what a FUCKING TOOLBOX is.

Third, there is ZERO story-game element to Amber. You do not collaborate in "creating a story" with your players. The players do not have the power to rewrite the universe. In fact, you're here bitching like a little cunt about how in Amber the GM has absolute authority, while Storygames are notorious for removing all authority from a GM.

The only reason you're even mentioning storygame is because of your RPGpundit Deragement Syndrome, you gimp.

Please, by all means keep humiliating yourself by showing how you know fuck all about Amber and don't care to know, and this is all just your own personal attempt to hold out your little wiener in some ridiculous masculinity challenge you are incapable of winning.

I feel like I'm not going to get an answer (and maybe that's okay). Since I genuinely don't know the game, I'm pretty useless for a 'yes it is'/'no it isn't' shoving match.

But Pundy (or Brad, or Chris himself), Chris mentions, "page 122, it starts going about how a story built, with a section detailing a 'Beginning, Middle and End', then the Hook, Conflict, Character Development, Closure, Moral Resolution, all elements of a story." Is that correct? Mind you, I'm aware that the mention of storytelling does not mean that there's any actual storytelling element in the game or its mechanics. But if it is not a storytelling game (and if it is, can someone please point out how it is? All I can tell is that there may or may not be a bunch of elements related to inter-player conflict, Mother May I-ism, lack of random element, and lack of rules related to interacting with the world as a whole rather than other PCs or NPCS, all of which are interesting facets if they exist, but red herrings on the topic of storygaming), is there a reason that it was included in the game?

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1040441I feel like I'm not going to get an answer (and maybe that's okay). Since I genuinely don't know the game, I'm pretty useless for a 'yes it is'/'no it isn't' shoving match.

But Pundy (or Brad, or Chris himself), Chris mentions, "page 122, it starts going about how a story built, with a section detailing a 'Beginning, Middle and End', then the Hook, Conflict, Character Development, Closure, Moral Resolution, all elements of a story." Is that correct? Mind you, I'm aware that the mention of storytelling does not mean that there's any actual storytelling element in the game or its mechanics. But if it is not a storytelling game (and if it is, can someone please point out how it is? All I can tell is that there may or may not be a bunch of elements related to inter-player conflict, Mother May I-ism, lack of random element, and lack of rules related to interacting with the world as a whole rather than other PCs or NPCS, all of which are interesting facets if they exist, but red herrings on the topic of storygaming), is there a reason that it was included in the game?

Pages 80-144 deal with "gamemaster mechanics". The section referred to on page 122 is taken out of context; it's no different than paged 5-6 of B1 Into the Unknown, "How to be an effective dungeonmaster." Literally the same exact advice.

If you read all of the Amber mechanics described in those 60+ pages, there's no way you'd think it's a storytelling game unless you're being purposefully dense.

One of the reasons why I wouldn't run Amber is that the RPG community is woefully deplete of adults.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1040433Holy shit your ridiculous resentment of me is really taking you to new levels of retardation.

Dood, this is not personal.  I don't know you from Adam, I don't resent you.  Why would I?  I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about The Amber 'RPG'.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1040433First, there were multiple versions of the Elders specifically to address the whole question of the Unreliable Narrator, something YOU WERE JUST CLAIMING THE GAME DIDN'T ADDRESS. Because you're a fucking ignoramus who never read the game.

No, it doesn't address, it just throws them at you, and offers vague suggestions, with no definite answers as to who these NPC's are/were.  It's like as if Blargle and Aleena of Red Box had six different stat blocks, covering all classes.  It's distracting and shows that the Author doesn't have much of either 1. a grip on the material or 2. the actual Creator of the setting is too lazy to define anything solidly.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1040433Second, the choices are made by the GM at the beginning of the campaign. That's what a FUCKING TOOLBOX is.

Toolboxes have tools that are a single shape, like actual rules to help adjudicate, here it relies entirely on the GM's whim.  And worse, it's like having putty in the shape of a hammer, screwdrivers, and vague instructions on how to change them into something else.

It's worse than IKEA furniture instructions.  At least they give you an Allan Key.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1040433Third, there is ZERO story-game element to Amber. You do not collaborate in "creating a story" with your players. The players do not have the power to rewrite the universe. In fact, you're here bitching like a little cunt about how in Amber the GM has absolute authority, while Storygames are notorious for removing all authority from a GM.

Is that you're meaning?  I don't know of any major games that do that.  Can you name one that does?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1040433The only reason you're even mentioning storygame is because of your RPGpundit Deragement Syndrome, you gimp.

Insults don't help your case, Pundy.  Not entirely sure you're as confident in your argument.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1040433Please, by all means keep humiliating yourself by showing how you know fuck all about Amber and don't care to know, and this is all just your own personal attempt to hold out your little wiener in some ridiculous masculinity challenge you are incapable of winning.

I've already made my point, you seem to be upset that I have a good enough point to start with ad hominems.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1040441I feel like I'm not going to get an answer (and maybe that's okay). Since I genuinely don't know the game, I'm pretty useless for a 'yes it is'/'no it isn't' shoving match.

But Pundy (or Brad, or Chris himself), Chris mentions, "page 122, it starts going about how a story built, with a section detailing a 'Beginning, Middle and End', then the Hook, Conflict, Character Development, Closure, Moral Resolution, all elements of a story." Is that correct? Mind you, I'm aware that the mention of storytelling does not mean that there's any actual storytelling element in the game or its mechanics. But if it is not a storytelling game (and if it is, can someone please point out how it is? All I can tell is that there may or may not be a bunch of elements related to inter-player conflict, Mother May I-ism, lack of random element, and lack of rules related to interacting with the world as a whole rather than other PCs or NPCS, all of which are interesting facets if they exist, but red herrings on the topic of storygaming), is there a reason that it was included in the game?

I assume it was included because Wujick included it because that's what he believed Amber 'adventures' should be structured.  You do not include something in a book with the intent of never being used, even AD&D and it's myriad of optional rules are accepted that they will be used by someone.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;1040472One of the reasons why I wouldn't run Amber is that the RPG community is woefully deplete of adults.

Hence, why you need a randomizer agent to create something of an equalizer.

I make no claims to be 'mature' enough to use something like Amber.  In my experience, Amber is the game that a lot of elitist/pretentious 'role players' use to tell others 'they don't get gaming'.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1040483I assume it was included because Wujick included it because that's what he believed Amber 'adventures' should be structured.  You do not include something in a book with the intent of never being used, even AD&D and it's myriad of optional rules are accepted that they will be used by someone.

Okay, but is that what you think makes Amber a Storygame? And if so, how?

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1040484Okay, but is that what you think makes Amber a Storygame? And if so, how?

Well, going by Pundit's explanation of what he thinks is a "storygame", it's not.  I was misunderstanding.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1040485Well, going by Pundit's explanation of what he thinks is a "storygame", it's not.  I was misunderstanding.

I...uh, well okay then. That settles that I guess.


And while I agree that Pundy went overly quickly to the insults, to no appreciable benefit, that does mean that it isn't the case that he's 'Not entirely sure you're as confident in your argument,' as he's apparently right within his own definitions of the terms, so he would have no reason to be unconfident.

And I'm not going to be sticking around for a who-has-the-right-vocab argument.

Hope this can just die as a pointless diversion.

No one will be surprised that I'd say Cyberpunk 2020, but I actually got to play AD&D 2nd Ed a lot more, and it was always fun.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1040488I...uh, well okay then. That settles that I guess.


And while I agree that Pundy went overly quickly to the insults, to no appreciable benefit, that does mean that it isn't the case that he's 'Not entirely sure you're as confident in your argument,' as he's apparently right within his own definitions of the terms, so he would have no reason to be unconfident.

And I'm not going to be sticking around for a who-has-the-right-vocab argument.

Hope this can just die as a pointless diversion.

Anytime someone has to make an attack on the person, rather than the argument, I've found that they're no longer confident in their own argument.

As for letting it go, I'm cool with.  I've said my piece on what game I like in the 90's a long time back.

If we are allowed to continue this diversion, FATE has its origins in being used to run Amber... which makes a twisted sort of sense.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;1040515If we are allowed to continue this diversion, FATE has its origins in being used to run Amber... which makes a twisted sort of sense.

FATE or Fudge, if I recall correctly, they both share a history?  (Honest question, I don't remember.)  And it would explain my dislike of FATE comes from, and why it's got a player vs. GM feel, even when it doesn't mean to.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1040576FATE or Fudge, if I recall correctly, they both share a history?  (Honest question, I don't remember.)  And it would explain my dislike of FATE comes from, and why it's got a player vs. GM feel, even when it doesn't mean to.

It was Fudge but the hack ultimately lead to Fate. I was always fascinated with Fudge. It was a pretty solid light and universal system and found Fate a little unnecessary. Having played Fate over the years, my stance on it has soured. I don't find it very adversarial. Rather it becomes about gaming the story which kinda kills things for me like cheating/metagaming.