Let's cut to the chase and make a chart so we can roll up our characters and make one big roll to see if we were successful in the campaign, and let the GM narrate to us all what happened?

Quote from: Skepticultist;1032429Well, for the benefit of our audience:  Everyone, gather round, listen up.  Steven Mitchell is a fucking idiot  and he has no idea what he's talking about.  None of  you really does.  You're all talking in circles at each other, because you're all ignorant.

The only person I see going in circles is you bitching about terminology. But have at it. It's no skin off my teeth.

QuoteWhat's being called "player agency" in this thread is not what the people who introduced that term into the lexicon mean by "player agency."  You all are talking about playing the game.  It's a stupid, pointless conversation.  Here, let me wrap it all up for you:

Interesting. Who decided for us what terms to use? What authority do they have? Why should we even care?

Quote from: Azraele;1032325What's the appeal of roleplaying if the dice dictate what you feel and do?

Different strokes.

Quote from: Azraele;1032325Wouldn't it be more interesting to, y'know, roleplay that stuff? Make decisions about who your character is? Define your character through those choices?

Have you ever heard of morale checks? The characters of the game, rather than the players, decide they've had enough and run for their lives even though the player controlling them doesn't like it. Why? Because it makes sense and because folks find that a fun part of a game.

Quote from: Azraele;1032325Why give your agency over to the idiot-god of the dice? Do you routinely flip coins to make major life decisions like Two-Face?

Why hyperbole so much?


Pendragon does great things by taking away player agency. So does the Song of Ice and Fire RPG in its diplomacy rules. Sometimes your character is compelled to do things that are disadvantageous. That's fun stuff.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1032350It's the overly intellectually pretentious vocabulary.

Why not "choices?"  Or "meaningful choices?"

As George Orwell said, always use the smallest word that works.

Because people are dumb and need a way to distinguish between actual choices (i.e. "meaningful" ones) and selecting between whims (i.e. what people commonly consider "choices").

Choosing between Pepsi and Coca-cola, preferences aside, isn't a real choice.

Choosing between death by fire and getting laid by the princess isn't a real choice.

Games often present meaningless choices to players: the right one and the wrong one. Choosing between two bad options or choosing between two ambiguous options is far more difficult and interesting.

Quote from: Ulairi;1032433What's with the influx of dimwits like Skepticultist recently? Can we institute some sort of poll test as part of the registration processes to weed people like him out?

Bite me, you witless fucking shitstain.  You get in the ring with me, and I will show the world that you're a dumb, irrational and boring turd.  I don't even know you, but I know that nobody posts crap like this unless theyre a pathetic, conformist dullard.  Only stupid, useless and worthless fucking shits post these kind of "hey mob, let's bully the new guy" posts.  You're a fucking pathetic little girl, Ulairi.  A pathetic little girl.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1032448The only person I see going in circles is you bitching about terminology. But have at it. It's no skin off my teeth.

Then you're an idiot.  Because I'm not bitching about terminology, I'm pointing out that the entire conversation in this thread is pointless, witless yammering.

Literally the only point you have made in this thread is this: "Putting a dice mechanic on the decision makes the choice for the player."  Thank god you were here to state the obvious.  I don't know what we'd do if you weren't here to spell out completely obvious things to us.

But please, keep being petty little bitches and getting your panties in a twist because someone dared to suggest that you're using a term wrong and it's leading to a pointless conversation in which you fucking turd-eating fucks rehash the same old, tired arguments and make witless observations like "taking away player choice takes away player choice."

If you dumbfucks actually bothered to learn what these terms mean, then you might actually have an interesting conversation, but since you insist on defining them to mean things we already have terms for, you just end up having the same pointless, stupid conversation over and over and over and (the moderator says take a chill. Rob Conley aka estar).

Quote from: Skepticultist;1032458Bite me, you witless fucking shitstain.  You get in the ring with me, and I will show the world that you're a dumb, irrational and boring turd.  I don't even know you, but I know that nobody posts crap like this unless theyre a pathetic, conformist dullard.  Only stupid, useless and worthless fucking shits post these kind of "hey mob, let's bully the new guy" posts.  You're a fucking pathetic little girl, Ulairi.  A pathetic little girl.



Then you're an idiot.  Because I'm not bitching about terminology, I'm pointing out that the entire conversation in this thread is pointless, witless yammering.

Literally the only point you have made in this thread is this: "Putting a dice mechanic on the decision makes the choice for the player."  Thank god you were here to state the obvious.  I don't know what we'd do if you weren't here to spell out completely obvious things to us.

But please, keep being petty little bitches and getting your panties in a twist because someone dared to suggest that you're using a term wrong and it's leading to a pointless conversation in which you fucking turd-eating fucks rehash the same old, tired arguments and make witless observations like "taking away player choice takes away player choice."

If you dumbfucks actually bothered to learn what these terms mean, then you might actually have an interesting conversation, but since you insist on defining them to mean things we already have terms for, you just end up having the same pointless, stupid conversation over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over until we all die.

Somebody put on his grumpy pants this morning.

Quote from: Skepticultist;1032458Bite me, you witless fucking shitstain.  You get in the ring with me, and I will show the world that you're a dumb, irrational and boring turd.  I don't even know you, but I know that nobody posts crap like this unless theyre a pathetic, conformist dullard.  Only stupid, useless and worthless fucking shits post these kind of "hey mob, let's bully the new guy" posts.  You're a fucking pathetic little girl, Ulairi.  A pathetic little girl.



Then you're an idiot.  Because I'm not bitching about terminology, I'm pointing out that the entire conversation in this thread is pointless, witless yammering.

Literally the only point you have made in this thread is this: "Putting a dice mechanic on the decision makes the choice for the player."  Thank god you were here to state the obvious.  I don't know what we'd do if you weren't here to spell out completely obvious things to us.

But please, keep being petty little bitches and getting your panties in a twist because someone dared to suggest that you're using a term wrong and it's leading to a pointless conversation in which you fucking turd-eating fucks rehash the same old, tired arguments and make witless observations like "taking away player choice takes away player choice."

If you dumbfucks actually bothered to learn what these terms mean, then you might actually have an interesting conversation, but since you insist on defining them to mean things we already have terms for, you just end up having the same pointless, stupid conversation over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and ovever and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over an.

Pumpkin, I think it's time to take a nap because you're getting grumpy. Why don't you have a snack, go to the potty, then we can put you down for a nap and see if you wake up on the good side of the bed.

I know you're excited because you're on your Easter break from school and when you get excited you can get tired and then you're cranky. Let's go take a nap and after your nap you can go outside and play with your friends, okay pumpkin?

Look, not everybody is smart like Skeptcultist. Some people are just getting into the hobby. Some have some experience, but are still rounding out their mental toolbox. If you're going to get upset that some people are talking about a topic that you've got all figured, out, then move the fuck on. Let people re-tread the ground you've already trod, because they can't trod it until the trod it.

There's a big difference between explaining something and the other person understanding it. I'd been GMing for literally decades, but this video by Extra Credits (back when they were good) laid out some topics about choice in games that really helped me out.

[video=youtube_share;lg8fVtKyYxY]https://youtu.be/lg8fVtKyYxY[/youtube]

If the goal is to cuss and discuss topics, to help others improve their Gming skills, and maybe think of things from a new angle, great. If you're here to demonstrate how very clever you are, and shut down discussion because you've already got it all figured out, then don't expect me to take you very seriously.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1032471I'd been GMing for literally decades, but this video by Extra Credits (back when they were good) laid out some topics about choice in games that really helped me out.

Nice video.
=

Quote from: tenbones;1032440Let's cut to the chase and make a chart so we can roll up our characters and make one big roll to see if we were successful in the campaign, and let the GM narrate to us all what happened?

Been done.  It's called the Traveller Character Generation System.  Think about it:  The player bets his character's life in the hope of a skill.  Four - or one - year later, he bets it again, until death or completion of the character.

Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;1032479Been done.  It's called the Traveller Character Generation System.  Think about it:  The player bets his character's life in the hope of a skill.  Four - or one - year later, he bets it again, until death or completion of the character.

/scratches off his first attempt at Narrative RPG Design.

It's all been done.


/raises eyebrow at Skepticultist

Lighten up, Francis.

Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;1032479Been done.  It's called the Traveller Character Generation System.  Think about it:  The player bets his character's life in the hope of a skill.  Four - or one - year later, he bets it again, until death or completion of the character.

Wow, is that an oversimplification.

Quote from: jeff37923;1032481Wow, is that an oversimplification.

Disagree with the "over" part.  It's just a quick way to skip the DCC "funnel" adventure.  "OK, this is the character who survived the funnel.  You now have one or more levels behind you and are ready to face the campaign."

Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;1032486Disagree with the "over" part.  It's just a quick way to skip the DCC "funnel" adventure.  "OK, this is the character who survived the funnel.  You now have one or more levels behind you and are ready to face the campaign."

I'm not saying you are wrong, but the way you have said it just sucks the fun right of doing it that way. Sometimes it is the journey and not the end result and sometimes it is the end result and not the journey (or why I made character death in Traveller chargen the decision of the player all those years ago).

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1032471Look, not everybody is smart like Skeptcultist. Some people are just getting into the hobby. Some have some experience, but are still rounding out their mental toolbox. If you're going to get upset that some people are talking about a topic that you've got all figured, out, then move the fuck on. Let people re-tread the ground you've already trod, because they can't trod it until the trod it.

There's a big difference between explaining something and the other person understanding it. I'd been GMing for literally decades, but this video by Extra Credits (back when they were good) laid out some topics about choice in games that really helped me out.

[video=youtube_share;lg8fVtKyYxY]https://youtu.be/lg8fVtKyYxY[/youtube]

If the goal is to cuss and discuss topics, to help others improve their Gming skills, and maybe think of things from a new angle, great. If you're here to demonstrate how very clever you are, and shut down discussion because you've already got it all figured out, then don't expect me to take you very seriously.

Good video, thanks.