Quote from: fearsomepirate;1028364What? There's no consistent metaphysical explanation for level drain? I'M QUITTING D&D FOREVER.

That is not remotely what I said. The +/- energy rules try to marry the logic of electrical charge with the mythology of the undead, which simply does not match if you think about it for a few seconds (Nephilim's black magic system is probably the best if not the only logical explanation of this in any RPG). That is just one entry in a long of issues that I gave, and a minor one in comparison to others such as the fact that martials suck.

Conan and Naruto do not belong in the same party. If you read any serious D&D fanfiction, you will notice very quickly that that the authors actually understand the rules. This results in settings with no resemblance to conventional fantasy, because the caster classes are reality warping super beings. Reading that stuff is an exercise in tedium as they spend whole books on clever tactics involving laundry lists of spells and unrelatable inhuman protagonists building their own personal universes. The only entertaining stories are the numerous OotS clones where the characters are vaguely aware they are pieces in a game, or the stories which use a low magic system instead.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1028445That is not remotely what I said. The +/- energy rules try to marry the logic of electrical charge with the mythology of the undead, which simply does not match if you think about it for a few seconds

A complete metaphysical explanation for why getting hit by a wight makes you lose a hit die and go up 1 point in THAC0 is the foundation of a good RPG.

QuoteIf you read any serious D&D fanfiction

:rolleyes:

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1028375I think you're thinking of the Starter Sets; those are distinct from the Beta paperbacks that went on sale about a year or so before each game's 'formal' hardcover release.

For 30 dollars. Each.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1028445Conan and Naruto do not belong in the same party.

Sez you.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1028446A complete metaphysical explanation for why getting hit by a wight makes you lose a hit die and go up 1 point in THAC0 is the foundation of a good RPG.

Apparently, yes.

JG

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1028437Why bother? Just re-clone 3.5.

Because Paizo probably tripled the number of classes and races available to play in PF vs 3.5.  Or at least made those classes and races open content.  A big part of this is being able to keep on using your existing rulebooks, as opposed to waiting 4-5 years until Paizo puts out a 2e version of that class/race you liked.

This thread caused me to look through the Roll20 quarterly reports. I dropped the data in a spreadsheet and charted it.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2284[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2285[/ATTACH]

5E overtakes Pathfinder + 3.5 games on Roll 20 in Q4 of 2015.

Some people may like to have this thread on hand.

AD&D, holding strong at 1%!

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1028446A complete metaphysical explanation for why getting hit by a wight makes you lose a hit die and go up 1 point in THAC0 is the foundation of a good RPG.



:rolleyes:

To be fair I still don't understand why level drain is a thing. Could you please not brush me off, though? I have prepared a few links which explain my POV in a more eloquent manner.

• Mike Bourke's essay on the topic: http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/something-about-undead/
  
• Set's discussion on the topic: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2jwma&page=2?Why-do-evil-Gods-use-negative-energy#53
  

This sort of problem does not exist in old school rules where you can trivially reverse cure spells into inflict spells. It is very easy to remove or redefine the positive/negative energy distinction in old school rules because it is largely a matter of fluff. Really, what is the difference if undead are healed by cure spells and harmed by inflict spells? In terms of rules it changes almost nothing, but in terms of fluff it obviates the "mummies are animated by positive energy because mummy rot is a disease" argument that showed up in Van Richten's Guide to the Ancient Dead.

Not so for 3e.

I noticed that whenever someone brings up the topic of tweaking the PF rules for the better, even minor rules like the monster types or the positive/negative energy, the PF community seems to irrationally hate change of any kind or are fundamentally unable to understand different points of view or different game design philosophies beyond that of 3e.

For example, when someone brought up the topic of adopting a 5e-style monster type system (5e folded slaad into aberrations with aboleths and intellect devourers, and otherwise massively expanded the applicably of the monster types), some people interpreted this to mean that valkyries would become aberrations because in PF they are chaotic neutral. This shows you how most PF players seem to think: they are absurdly literal-minded, have absurdly rigid thought patterns, and completely lack any kind of creativity or critical thought. They're a real-life definition of the "autist" internet slur.

The entire reason I dumped PF, nay, the entire reason I joined the old school movement and developed such a fondness for Risus, was because the 3e rules (the first I was introduced to) were arbitrary, bizarre, idiosyncratic and forced you to build your world around them rather than helping to support your campaign setting. Numerous assumptions are baked into the rules and it is impossible to house rule them away without rebuilding it from the ground up. It is easier to add rules than to remove them, which why 5e's simplified system is vastly superior to PF's over-complicated drivel even if martials still suck until Dreamscarred or Drop Dead decide to support 5e.

PF Unchained had some good ideas, or less charitably developed basic common sense, like letting martials advance without relying on the Christmas tree effect or building monsters according to intended CR. Yet Paizo aren't adopting more intelligent changes like SAGA's rolling AC and Dex saves together, True20's dropping ability scores in favor of just ability bonuses, whatever good ideas came out of TrailBlazer, FantasyCraft and other d20 clones, or slaughtering any other dumb sacred cows. So I think I will stick with 5e, warts and all, rather than adopt PF 2e, since Paizo and their fans clearly haven't realized why 5e is outselling them. Hint: it is not because the rules are needlessly complicated and flawed on some basic level.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1028527AD&D, holding strong at 1%!

I have a feeling that the AD&D numbers are a bit askew due to the fact that I bet old chunks of coal are much more likely to play it live than through Roll20.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1028564To be fair I still don't understand why level drain is a thing.

Because Gary Gygax got a kick out of making players burst into tears.

QuoteI noticed that whenever someone brings up the topic of tweaking the PF rules for the better, even minor rules like the monster types or the positive/negative energy, the PF community seems to irrationally hate change of any kind or are fundamentally unable to understand different points of view or different game design philosophies beyond that of 3e.

Yep. Because the reason for PF's existence is being unwilling to give up on 3.x. There's another d20-based D&D-alike game that did its own thing, rather than just cloning an old version. I've never heard a negative thing about 13th Age, but it's just not the hit Pathfinder is. And if Paizo had gone that way, I doubt PF would be successful.

Quoteeven if martials still suck until Dreamscarred or Drop Dead decide to support 5e.

Really? I love the 5e martials, especially Barbarians.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1028571Yep. Because the reason for PF's existence is being unwilling to give up on 3.x

And what law of the universe says that a bad thing? And to desire further support for a game they like to play as a hobby?

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1028571Really? I love the 5e martials, especially Barbarians.

Me too - and in play they seem a bit ahead of the casters, if anything, especially when Feats are in use.

Quote from: RunningLaser;1028436Makes me wonder if someone is going to clone Pathfinder 1e now.

If Paizo is smart, they'll keep the DNA of Pathfinder 1e, making backwards (or forwards) compatibility as easy as possible.
I can't see them making changes big enough to make PF1e obsolete. (And they say as much in the FAQ)

Quote from: sureshot;1028265From what I read from the FAQ the are trying to implement some 5E style changes without saying they are. I did not realize that 5E had hurt their profits that much.

5E has not only won back most of the lapsed D&D-family players, it's drawing in huge numbers of new players. People who watch Critical Role streams, or see kids playing D&D in Stranger Things, aren't going to rush off to a store and buy Pathfinder.

Quote from: S'mon;1028280Pathfinder clearly met a large market demand for not-4e. There is not a demand for not-5e, so I think this will mostly sell to their legacy fan base from the 2000-2008 3e era. That is still a substantial market, of course. But I don't see it disrupting the primary, 5e-centric RPG market.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1028314I think this is where Paizo begins to fade. The next evolution of d20 is already here, and it's 5e. 5e's not a polarizing edition the way 4e was, so there's no big mass of dissatisfied gamers for Paizo to keep building on. They've got more marketing power than companies like Pelgrane Press do, but when a market-defining brand is doing well, it doesn't leave a lot of space for serious competitors.

Yes, at this point Pathfinder is left trying to hang on to existing players, and maybe drawing in some char op uber alles gamers - not exactly a huge population of tabletop gamers today. All of the fresh blood is going to 5E.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1028588If Paizo is smart, they'll keep the DNA of Pathfinder 1e, making backwards (or forwards) compatibility as easy as possible.
I can't see them making changes big enough to make PF1e obsolete. (And they say as much in the FAQ)

Paizo's most valuable asset is their back catalogue of highly-regarded adventure paths. So unless they plan on updating and re-publishing their existing APs, they pretty much have to make PF 2E compatible with 1E.