I wouldn't have criticised your misuse of metaphor if I'd agreed with you, it was just a good chance to have a dig. I'm a grammar commie. Nazis kill everyone, commies kill people who disagree with them.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1024524I wouldn't have criticised your misuse of metaphor if I'd agreed with you, it was just a good chance to have a dig. I'm a grammar commie. Nazis kill everyone, commies kill people who disagree with them.

My bad, I'll change it in a moment.

I do have some questions which I think you may have some of the best answers. I'll start another thread for those.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1024440Here is me not dragging this thread out of gaming into other areas by posting alternatives to video games as explanations for this behavior. I'm thinking it, but I'm not doing it.  Kind of passive-aggressive like.  Please carry on.

High Fructose Corn Syrup? GMO Wheat induced Gluten-intolerance? Chem-trails? Storygames?!?! (See? I brought it back to gaming. )

Quote from: Opaopajr;1024435I still remember a response I got from a player who was feeling overwhelmed by all that was happening around her: "I don't know what you want me to do. I don't know what is the right answer you want."

"There's not a single answer that I want to hear. What is the answer you want to give me? What would your character do?"
Yeah, been there, done that, it was my answer. At least I got better things than just a lousy t-shirt out of it:D!

Quote from: AsenRG;1024741"There's not a single answer that I want to hear. What is the answer you want to give me? What would your character do?"
Yeah, been there, done that, it was my answer. At least I got better things than just a lousy t-shirt out of it:D!

Yeah... it's a flummoxing question. I gave a similar response. But I can tell you what really was going through my mind was self-doubt, trying to figure out "Where did I go wrong?" Could've been residual confusion from other GM expectations, but yeah, it made me pause.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1024772Yeah... it's a flummoxing question. I gave a similar response. But I can tell you what really was going through my mind was self-doubt, trying to figure out "Where did I go wrong?" Could've been residual confusion from other GM expectations, but yeah, it made me pause.

Personally, I attributed it to the PC games with single solution, because the player had no previous experience with RPGs before I introduced her. She actually agreed;).

Quote from: tenbones;1024388... Some players don't want to game at the level you want to GM. You need to cut those people loose. The key is realizing how far you're willing to go down that road with them before you realize they're playing a different game than you.

This is a great quote, and true, though I've had several mostly-passive players who weren't really a problem because they were just like mostly-subordinate NPCs that happened to have players attached to them. As long as the GM treats them as such and doesn't do nonsense like stall the game for them or avoid having them die when they're incompetent or make the other PCs and/or the party's NPCs give them much more slack than they deserve, or let the players socialize OOC during play, they're just mediocre companions and don't hurt much of anything. In fact, they can be object lessons on the benefits of smart active play, when they freeze up and get pushed into a chasm to their deaths, or the party ditches them because they're less competent than an NPC and there's only so much room in the boat, etc.

Quote from: Skarg;1024908This is a great quote, and true, though I've had several mostly-passive players who weren't really a problem because they were just like mostly-subordinate NPCs that happened to have players attached to them. As long as the GM treats them as such and doesn't do nonsense like stall the game for them or avoid having them die when they're incompetent or make the other PCs and/or the party's NPCs give them much more slack than they deserve, or let the players socialize OOC during play, they're just mediocre companions and don't hurt much of anything. In fact, they can be object lessons on the benefits of smart active play, when they freeze up and get pushed into a chasm to their deaths, or the party ditches them because they're less competent than an NPC and there's only so much room in the boat, etc.

Sounds good except for the part about the party abandoning. I've never seen that happen. Everyone always bends over backwards to bring them even if they all die.

Quote from: Skarg;1024908In fact, they can be object lessons on the benefits of smart active play, when they freeze up and get pushed into a chasm to their deaths, or the party ditches them because they're less competent than an NPC and there's only so much room in the boat, etc.

Managing resources is important. And haven't we all encountered PCs who were way less useful and interesting than some of the NPCs?

Quote from: Skarg;1024908This is a great quote, and true, though I've had several mostly-passive players who weren't really a problem because they were just like mostly-subordinate NPCs that happened to have players attached to them. As long as the GM treats them as such and doesn't do nonsense like stall the game for them or avoid having them die when they're incompetent or make the other PCs and/or the party's NPCs give them much more slack than they deserve, or let the players socialize OOC during play, they're just mediocre companions and don't hurt much of anything. In fact, they can be object lessons on the benefits of smart active play, when they freeze up and get pushed into a chasm to their deaths, or the party ditches them because they're less competent than an NPC and there's only so much room in the boat, etc.

I haven't seen that, I admit.  And I'll also defend the casual player; some people simply are, and will always be.  The key to being a successful casual player, I think, is having a cooperative attitude; "what do you want me to do."  If somebody's content to be a competent follower, I'll let them.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1024952If somebody's content to be a competent follower, I'll let them.

That was me when I played back in the 90's, although less from being casual and more from lack of assertiveness.  

(I once described myself as a Moonglum to everyone else's Elric)

Rolemaster Standard System's Gamemaster Law breaks down player archetypes into animal subcategories including the Cow and the Sponge.  The cow is just there to pass time and not really into it and the sponge just absorbs whatever the GM lays down without ever engaging with it.

I thought there was something wrong with what I was doing or with one of my players, but it sounds like he is the Sponge. Or the Cow maybe.

On the other hand, people always say "passive player" is a valid personality type and to just let them enjoy it passively if that's what they want...

Yeah, there's not much to be done for people who just aren't really into it.

Pretty much everyone could GM.

Anyone who is sufficiently disciplined and keeps at it and works on it could become a good GM.

Not everyone can be a GREAT GM.