Yeah, funny that, a guy who spent the better part of his gaming life running White Wolf games would talk big but be a shit D&D GM.

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;1012304On the topic of empty rooms:

If you're exploring any dungeon of significant size, empty rooms are almost essential if the players are to have any ability to play strategically. They provide room for manoeuvre, lines of retreat, opportunities to rest or regroup.

They also seem fairly necessary for versimilitude, to me.

Back when I was running a dungeon-centric AD&D 1e game, I stuck to the DMG ratio, and it seemed to produce ideal results.

It's also worth noting that "empty" doesn't necessarily mean "bare and featureless". It just means no monster, trick, trap or treasure.

Yes, rooms without encounters or treasure are necessary, and can be interesting (B1 In Search of the Unknown is a prime example of this). What I find much less appealing than a dungeon that is 3/4 "empty" rooms of this sort, is a dungeon full of vanilla combat encounters (ie B2 Keep on the Borderlands). A lot of the OSR dungeons I've come across fall prey to mimicking the lamest aspects of old school D&D. Room 4. Rubble in corner. Giant snake. 25 Sp. Room 5. Three orc guards playing dice. 50 sp in a pile. Room 6. Five orcs in barracks. 30 sp between them. Room 7. Storage room with barrels of sour wine. Room 8. Rotted bunks. 3 Giant centipedes. Bronze dagger worth 20 gp.

I have to have "empty" rooms (as in no permanent monsters, traps, treasure, etc.) in a megadungeon.   They are the perfect no-mans land between factions and critters.  Well they may contain the base of the dungeon food chain, fungi, normal sized rodentia, etc.

They are also a place, as has been mentioned before, for PCs to rest or retreat to.   Rooms after room jammed packed with things, seems very odd, especially when these rooms never interact and stand in isolation until the PCs trigger them.

Quote from: Haffrung;1014548Yes, rooms without encounters or treasure are necessary, and can be interesting (B1 In Search of the Unknown is a prime example of this). What I find much less appealing than a dungeon that is 3/4 "empty" rooms of this sort, is a dungeon full of vanilla combat encounters (ie B2 Keep on the Borderlands). A lot of the OSR dungeons I've come across fall prey to mimicking the lamest aspects of old school D&D. Room 4. Rubble in corner. Giant snake. 25 Sp. Room 5. Three orc guards playing dice. 50 sp in a pile. Room 6. Five orcs in barracks. 30 sp between them. Room 7. Storage room with barrels of sour wine. Room 8. Rotted bunks. 3 Giant centipedes. Bronze dagger worth 20 gp.

That sounds vastly better than the typical 3e/PF module in which all 8 rooms would have a static combat encounter, 5-6 of them a single CR-balanced monster.

Not seeing it, what is 'vastly better' about a bunch of generic combats in a box with. a few empty room and rubble between them?

Quote from: Voros;1014658Not seeing it, what is 'vastly better' about a bunch of generic combats in a box with. a few empty room and rubble between them?

(a) Faster combats
(b) More varied combats
(c) Old school non-linear map will allow the encounters to be approached in various orders, bypassed etc
(d) No 'attacks immediately' - you're supposed to roll on reaction chart to see how the monsters react
(e) No multi-page monster stat blocks that are agony to extract info from
(f) Won't fill the session with combat - PCs could spend a session exploring a dungeon with those rooms among other stuff (halls, tunnels, whatever) & with talking to/feeding/fleeing might spend 1/4-1/3 the time on combat, not 80%.

I've been struck by how much more my players & me are enjoying Stonehell, which has plenty of stuff like the above, compared to the last few Paizo adventures we slogged through (Shattered Star #3 & #4, Seven Swords of Sin, Rise of the Runelords #4).

Aside from A and E those are all assumptions. Your criticisms are more rooted in the rulesets and your assumptions of how they are applied (a lack of reaction rolls doesn't force the DM to reduce every encounter to combat unless they are inexperienced or a bad DM) not the dungeon design.

The example said zip about 'old-school non-linear maps' there are loads of old-school linear dungeons, including the actual example of B2. There were also many old-school dungeons that were combat-slogs (Temple of EE for instance).

Quote from: Voros;1014889Aside from A and E those are all assumptions. Your criticisms are more rooted in the rulesets and your assumptions of how they are applied (a lack of reaction rolls doesn't force the DM to reduce every encounter to combat unless they are inexperienced or a bad DM) not the dungeon design.

The example said zip about 'old-school non-linear maps' there are loads of old-school linear dungeons, including the actual example of B2. There were also many old-school dungeons that were combat-slogs (Temple of EE for instance).

Well, at this point I'm not sure you're arguing in good faith, but I have been using the same 5e ruleset for both campaigns (converting from Pathfinder for Shattered Star & converting from OSR/Labyrinth Lord for Stonehell) and I see exactly the differences I described. I don't own Temple of Elemental Evil but I expect you're right, I recall Forgotten Caverns of Tsojcanth looked a lot like that. So some 1e adventures were combat slogs like modern Paizo stuff. Not relevant to the Moldvay-style rooms described unless you insert "attacks immediately" into every entry - which competition modules often did to create a level playing field, and modern adventure writers often do out of sheer idiocy I guess.

Edit: Not sure how you can describe the B2 Caves of Chaos as linear. I feel like you're just trolling.

I think your assumption of a lack of good faith is more you dragging your feelings ftom Pundency into it.

I don't doubt that PF or 3e adventures may suck but praising mediocre 'three orcs rolling dice and empty rooms with rubble in the corner' dungeon design as 'vastly superior' sounds like an overstatement, to put it mildly.

Quote from: S'mon;1014947Edit: Not sure how you can describe the B2 Caves of Chaos as linear. I feel like you're just trolling.

Typically any disagreement with OSR truisms is viewed as 'trolling' on here. I love a lot of elements of B2 but always found the Caves of Chaos the least inspired part of the module, several of them are fairly linear with only one entrance. You've honestly never read any criticism of them before?

Quote from: S'mon;1014947Well, at this point I'm not sure you're arguing in good faith, but I have been using the same 5e ruleset for both campaigns (converting from Pathfinder for Shattered Star & converting from OSR/Labyrinth Lord for Stonehell) and I see exactly the differences I described. I don't own Temple of Elemental Evil but I expect you're right, I recall Forgotten Caverns of Tsojcanth looked a lot like that. So some 1e adventures were combat slogs like modern Paizo stuff. Not relevant to the Moldvay-style rooms described unless you insert "attacks immediately" into every entry - which competition modules often did to create a level playing field, and modern adventure writers often do out of sheer idiocy I guess.

Edit: Not sure how you can describe the B2 Caves of Chaos as linear. I feel like you're just trolling.

Oh holy cow, S'mon. No, just... no. I do not know how you misread the situation that badly, but at this point in time to the outside eye it looks like Voros is being upfront, open, and honest, and that you are having a hard time being an adult when that which you prefer is not being treated as inherently better. If I routinely call out a certain new schooler for this type of behavior, I have to be fair and do the same for the old schooler when they do the same.

Voros is correct. In response to his statement, "Not seeing it, what is 'vastly better' about a bunch of generic combats in a box with. a few empty room and rubble between them?," you listed out 6 things which have little-to-nothing to do with the topic at hand, and appear to be knee-jerk opinions regarding new school D&D in general. Some of them are accurate (it's hard to argue that OSR combats aren't faster), some of them are potentially true (certain new school monsters have execrable multi-page stat blocks), and some of them are genuinely not or are artifacts of a certain playstyle which is not inherent to new school (whether new school gamers tend to play in this style is another question) (example: there is nothing about new school d&d which requires things to 'attack immediately.' Nothing.).

I've never played a Paizo module, and I don't have a copy of B2, so I cannot do a comparison. However, if you really want to disprove Voros's points, I would suggest using reason, logic, and comparative examples, not the knee-jerk reactions of your A-F list, nor attacks like implying that Voros is trolling.

I'm genuinely disappointed, S'mon. I've seen you be better than this. And I'm definitely frustrated when those individuals here who complain about the grognards picking on new school games are actually shown to be right. It tends to make my arguments that they are inventing perceived victimhood status simply because it is comfortable to feel like the underdog ring somewhat hollow.

Quote from: Voros;1014959Typically any disagreement with OSR truisms is viewed as 'trolling' on here. I love a lot of elements of B2 but always found the Caves of Chaos the least inspired part of the module, several of them are fairly linear with only one entrance. You've honestly never read any criticism of them before?

There are a whole bunch of caves. You can take them in any order. It's one of the least linear modules ever produced.

Edit: Personally I find the design of Caves of Chaos fairly dull, but it's certainly not linear.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1014985I'm genuinely disappointed, S'mon. I've seen you be better than this.

Well I'm sorry not all my posts are equally wonderful!

Maybe if Pundit paid me more to shill for the OSR you'd get better quality control. As it is you'll just have to put up with variable quality posting.

I want to show you what a typical Paizo dungeon room looks like, since that was my comparison. Here's one from Shattered Star #4, ie the middle of the AP:

B1. Spirits Cellar (CR 11)
The odor of beer permeates this huge room. Several crates,
barrels, kegs, and racks for wine fill the room--many of which
have been opened, emptied, upturned, and shattered. The floor
is littered with glass shards and corks and strewn with loose
coils of rope.
The main cellar of the abbey, where the local production
of beer had been aging since the first, merry days of
ecumenism, has sadly been ransacked and drained almost
completely dry by Ardathanatus's skulk mercenaries. Only
a dozen bottles and a few casks survive intact.
Creatures: Hollow Mountain hosts several enclaves of
skulks, lithe humanoids with the ability to blend almost
perfectly with their environments. Most of these tribes
survive primarily as a result of their skill at hiding, for
Hollow Mountain is a dangerous place indeed. The skulks
of the Pallid Path are an exception--these worshipers of
Yamasoth have largely forsaken the upper levels of Hollow
Mountain or the ruins of Xin-Bakrakhan for the deeper
caverns, particularly the swampy, stinking caverns of
the Abysmal Slough, where they often war against the
troglodyte tribes of the Deep Pools. When Ardathanatus
encountered the skulks on his journey through Hollow
Mountain, he'd already converted to the worship of the
skulks' god Yamasoth, and the elf was quick to capitalize
on that by presenting himself to the Pallid Path as a
savior. He recruited the entire tribe, and took them with
him on his return here to Windsong Abbey.
The skulks of the Pallid Path have had it hard--they
took significant losses both in the assault on Windsong and
the exploration of these dungeon chambers. (Ardathanatus
was fond of using them to trigger suspected traps). But the
skulks of the Pallid Path are nothing if not fanatics, and
their belief that each of their deaths helps to further the
return of their deity to the world is more than enough to
ensure their continued loyalty to Ardathanatus.
Although they originally numbered well over three
dozen, with a few leaders among their own, today only 16
of the rank-and-file Pallid Path cultists remain. Of those,
six are stationed here to guard the contents of the room--
now that Ardathanatus has explored the dungeons, he
has little further use for the skulks. If the skulks notice
the PCs coming, five of them swiftly hide throughout the
room and watch patiently while the sixth skulk sneaks into
area B2 to lure the clockwork golem there into this room.
Pallid Path Cultists (6) CR 6
XP 2,400 each
Skulk cleric of Yamasoth 3/rogue 2 (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 2 248)
CE Medium humanoid (skulk)
Init +7; Senses low-light vision; Perception +13
DEFENSE
AC 16, touch 16, flat-footed 13 (+3 deflection, +3 Dex)
hp 74 (8d8+35)
Fort +7, Ref +10, Will +8
Defensive Abilities evasion
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee mwk short sword +10 (1d6+2/19–20)
Ranged +1 composite shortbow with inubrix arrows +9 (1d4+3)
Special Attacks channel negative energy 1/day (DC 9, 2d6),
sneak attack +2d6
Domain Spell-Like Abilities (CL 3rd; concentration +7)
7/day--acid dart (1d6+1 acid), artificer's touch (1d6+1,
bypasses 3 DR and hardness)
Spells Prepared (CL 3rd; concentration +7)
2nd--cure moderate wounds, spiritual weapon, wood shapeD
1st--animate ropeD, cure light wounds, doom (DC 15), shield
of faith
0 (at will)--bleed (DC 14), detect magic, light, stabilize
D Domain spell; Domains Artifice, Earth
TACTICS
Before Combat The cultist casts shield of faith. They remain
hidden as long as possible, for they plan to attack only once
the golem from area B2 is lured into this room.
During Combat Once the clockwork golem attacks, these
cultists hang back to fire inubrix arrows at any heavily
armored PCs. The skulks move after each shot, hoping to
hide again and snipe at the PCs while they are forced to
concentrate on the golem. Hanging back also keeps the
skulks from accidentally attracting the wild golem's attention!
Morale A skulk that is reduced to fewer than 20 hit points
attempts to flee south to area B4 to warn the skulks there
and join in the defense of that area's stairs.
STATISTICS
Str 15, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 7
Base Atk +5; CMB +7; CMD 23
Feats Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Toughness,
Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (short sword)
Skills Knowledge (religion) +8, Perception +13, Stealth +22;
Racial Modifiers +8 Stealth
Languages Common, Undercommon
SQ aura, camouflaged step, chameleon skin, rogue talents
(combat trick), trapfinding +1
Gear +1 composite longbow with 10 inubrix arrows, masterwork
short sword
Treasure: The arrows these skulks fire have heads
crafted from a form of pale skymetal called inubrix,
known also as "ghost iron." Inubrix is very soft metal, but
it passes through iron and steel as if they didn't exist. As a
result, these arrows deal less damage and are treated as if
constantly broken, but they completely ignore AC bonuses
granted by iron or steel armor and shields. An inubrix
arrow is worth 250 gp. More details on inubrix appear on
page 71 of Pathfinder Adventure Path #61.

A typical Paizo adventure has around 40 of these over 64 pages of adventure plus 32 pages of supplementary material. This room is a bit shorter than average maybe, only one page of text though their columns and images caused it to spread over 3 pages - some are shorter (and omit monster stats, referring GM to Bestiary #X), but major villain rooms can run several pages, with up to 3 pages just for the BBEG stat block. An Adventure Path campaign has six such adventures.

Does that give some inkling why I've come to prefer Room 4. Rubble in corner. Giant snake. 25 Sp. Room 5. Three orc guards playing dice. 50 sp in a pile. Room 6. Five orcs in barracks. 30 sp between them. Room 7. Storage room with barrels of sour wine. Room 8. Rotted bunks. 3 Giant centipedes. Bronze dagger worth 20 gp?

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1014985(example: there is nothing about new school d&d which requires things to 'attack immediately.' Nothing.).

Have you even read a Paizo module? A 3e or 4e WotC module? How many times do they include stat blocks and NOT say "attacks immediately"? I saw one recently in the 4e module I'm running*, Thunderspire Labyrinth. The Duergar trading post in the Seven Pillared Hall. It stood out because it was so unusual.

Running 3e/PF/4e I often change the module so monsters don't attack immediately, while recognising - and not caring - that this screws up the designers' intent in terms of encounter chain design, resource attrition etc. I do tweak 4e healing surge recovery to compensate.

In practice, new school modules do indeed ape the worst 'attacks immediately' old competition modules of the past, in the vast majority of cases. And there are reasons for this to do with challenge/encounter design - if PCs can avoid fighting a bunch of encounters then the supposedly finely tuned encounter balance will be thrown well off.

*Since 2000 I have run far more 'new school' than 'old school', even counting my current 5e campaign as 'old school'.

Long, detailed descriptions are good, no?
As far I can see Paizo just takes a location and makes clear description, not requiring the GM to make it up fully or partially.

I already like the first 3 sentences of the example you gave, then it goes more into details and history.

Not liking the 'attacks immediately' situation btw, good if there are other options. I never made a Leeroy Jenkins character.