Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1011323Again, if you look at OD&D with gold=XP and XP = gp * (monster level/player level), you start to need more money than there is in the world to level up.  So there is no hard limit, but there is an effective limit.

Not before it leads to 30th level characters hunting dragons to extinction for their Treasure Type.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1013479Not before it leads to 30th level characters hunting dragons to extinction for their Treasure Type.

Even a level 36 character is presumably getting 1/3 xp from a 12 hd equivalent dragon, so I'm not seeing this 'all the gold in the world' issue unless levels are in the hundreds.

I think I've come round to preferring a hard level cap, like 20th level in 5e or 2e (pre High Level Campaigns), 6 in E6 or 14 in ACKS. 10th is also a nice level to cap at. Hard level caps encourage (semi) retirement of maxed out PCs and maintaining a stable of characters across a range of levels rather than focus on infinite levelling; it also makes world-building easy since I can scale NPC demographics around the cap.

... never had any game with characters of over level 17, except if I include video games (which I don't in this case)

Playing at level 20? or over 30?

I imagined what that would be like, probably the character would be something like the ruler of a nation, a prophet, or the best assassin in the world, maybe a demigod

Quote from: joriandrake;1013512... never had any game with characters of over level 17, except if I include video games (which I don't in this case)

Playing at level 20? or over 30?

I imagined what that would be like, probably the character would be something like the ruler of a nation, a prophet, or the best assassin in the world, maybe a demigod

There's a Barbarian-20 PC imc 5e Wilderlands, yes he is indeed a ruler/prophet/demigod.

Quote from: S'mon;1013518There's a Barbarian-20 PC imc 5e Wilderlands, yes he is indeed a ruler/prophet/demigod.

imc?

Quote from: joriandrake;1013521imc?

In my campaign. I gm Wilderlands sandbox with various groups of pcs from 1st to 20th level

Quote from: S'mon;1013529In my campaign. I gm Wilderlands sandbox with various groups of pcs from 1st to 20th level

oooh, that sounds like fun

Quote from: joriandrake;1013534oooh, that sounds like fun

It IS!!! :cool:

Edit: Dunno if I annoy the first level PCs when half the NPCs they meet are raving about the AWESOME COOLNESS of Hakeem the level 20 PC who (repeatedly) has conquered fear, conquered hate, turned their night into day...

If you are a 5e D&D Facebook group member, you can bask in Hakeem's awesomeness at https://www.facebook.com/groups/DnD5th/permalink/872491276261714/

Quote from: RPGPundit;1013479Not before it leads to 30th level characters hunting dragons to extinction for their Treasure Type.

Only if dragons are common as head lice.  We stalled out around 11th or 12th level just because of the amount of time it took to find enough treasure to matter.  The fact that Robilar made it to 14th level was extraordinary.

Quote from: S'mon;1013546It IS!!! :cool:

Edit: Dunno if I annoy the first level PCs when half the NPCs they meet are raving about the AWESOME COOLNESS of Hakeem the level 20 PC who (repeatedly) has conquered fear, conquered hate, turned their night into day...

If you are a 5e D&D Facebook group member, you can bask in Hakeem's awesomeness at https://www.facebook.com/groups/DnD5th/permalink/872491276261714/

Not using facebook, didn't play 5thEd yet, but you made me consider to try it and join. (not Facebook, the campaign)

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1013547Only if dragons are common as head lice.  We stalled out around 11th or 12th level just because of the amount of time it took to find enough treasure to matter.  The fact that Robilar made it to 14th level was extraordinary.

Even with dragons only 60% in lair, the standard wandering monster tables still result in a dragon treasure per three baronies cleared; and that's ignoring the use of magic items and spells that may locate the next dragon lair more quickly or clearing terrain types where dragons are more frequent. Yes, it's tedious, but getting from 1st to 2nd level was also tedious and probably riskier. Once Greyhawk introduced 7th level and higher spells, there was certainly motivation to reach higher levels. We stopped around 14th level because the encounters got too deadly (at least with any referee worth playing with), not because it was too slow to advance.

Given the average gold value of a dragon treasure in OD&D, it takes something like 24 dragon lairs cleared to accumulate enough XP to go from 13th to 14th level.  And that assumes SOLO; you are the ONLY one getting any of the treasure/XP.  So no friends, no NPCs, no nothing.  You all by yourself go clear two dozen dragon lairs.

Yeah, I'll wait.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1013637Given the average gold value of a dragon treasure in OD&D, it takes something like 24 dragon lairs cleared to accumulate enough XP to go from 13th to 14th level.  And that assumes SOLO

Wow, so, OD&D dragons are really poor compared to 1e MM dragons or Classic dragons? Just a green dragon lair with type H treasure I remember produced well over 150,000gp IMC (was using Classic rules but 1e MM); I only gave 0.2 XP to the PC who nicked it though because I'm a mean dad - was my son's MU PC who located and stole the treasure of Chloridia, a green dragon who had been his  vassal until then. She swore revenge, and was heard of occasionally thereafter working for the villains.

A red dragon lair with  H S T produces even more; or looking at Mentzer Classic proper it specifically says Type H treasure averages 60,000 gpv and all small dragons have Type H (d4 dragons); large have Hx2 & I (average 127,500gp, d3 dragons); Huge have Hx3 & Ix2 average 195,000 gp  (d2 dragons).

A Classic Fighter needs 120,000gp to level and has no listed reduction for being over-levelled vs threat AFAIK.

So as written it's very practical to hunt dragons for their treasure & level up on it all the way to 36.
I do think D&D (all editions) works best in the 1-10 or 1-12 range though, so it's interesting that the original rules effectively soft capped around 12-14.

Quote from: S'mon;1013641Wow, so, OD&D dragons are really poor compared to 1e MM dragons or Classic dragons? Just a green dragon lair with type H treasure I remember produced well over 150,000gp IMC (was using Classic rules but 1e MM); I only gave 0.2 XP to the PC who nicked it though because I'm a mean dad - was my son's MU PC who located and stole the treasure of Chloridia, a green dragon who had been his  vassal until then. She swore revenge, and was heard of occasionally thereafter working for the villains.

A red dragon lair with  H S T produces even more; or looking at Mentzer Classic proper it specifically says Type H treasure averages 60,000 gpv and all small dragons have Type H (d4 dragons); large have Hx2 & I (average 127,500gp, d3 dragons); Huge have Hx3 & Ix2 average 195,000 gp  (d2 dragons).

A Classic Fighter needs 120,000gp to level and has no listed reduction for being over-levelled vs threat AFAIK.

Okay, OD&D (w/o GH) Dragons --
number appearing: 1-4
60% in lair,
treasure type H*
Stats: Gold are 20% 10HD, 60% 11 HD, 20% 12 HD, every step down (red, blue, green, black, white) reduces that spread by 1. Maturity is a D6 toss (the result being the amount of hp per hd, with corresponding breath weapon damage), however, if # appearing =2, then they are a mated pair of age cat. 4+, and if 3-4 showing, it's the same mated pair with 1-2 age cat. 1 hatchlings. This pertains to treasure thusly: "Very Young and Young Dragons are unlikely to have acquired treasure. Sub-Adult Dragons will have about half the indicated treasure for Dragons. Very Old Dragons can have as much as twice the indicated amount."
Additional cost/value/xp considerations include that if you are higher level than the encounter, you receive only an xp amount equal to the relative value ("thus an 8th level Magic-User operating on the 5th dungeon level would be awarded 5/8 experience" ), that subdued dragons can be sold for 500-1000 gp/hp, and that "Metal is melted to solid lumps by fire or lightning. Fire will not destroy Gems (optionally 10% chance of destruction) but lightning will. Both will devalue Jewelry by 25%."
*Treasure type H: 25% chance of 3-24x1000 cp (worth 0.02 gp each), 50% chance of 1-100x1000 sp (worth 0.1 gp each), 75% chance of 10-60x1000 gp, 50% chance of 1-100 gems**, 50% chance of 10-40 jewels***, of magic items 20% chance of any 4 + 1 Potion + 1 Scroll
**Gems: Base prices are as follows: 10% chance of being 10gp, 15% of being 50 gp, 50% of 100 gp, 15% of 500 gp, and 10% of 100 gp. However, roll 1D6 for each gem (or do in batches), a roll of 1 indicates it being kicked up a categorical notch (categories above 1000 are: 5k, 10k, 25k, 50k, 100k, and 500k; it's unclear from the book how you get above 5000-- perhaps you keep rolling for exploding value)
***Jewelry: 20% are 3d6x100 gp, 60% are 1d6x1000 gp, 20% are 1d10x1000 gp.

I don't have time to crunch an average xp award right now, but I probably will later, if anyone really wants it.

"75% chance of 10-60x1000 gp"

Looks even more generous than 1e MM which is 55% for gp I think.