Some good megadungeon links (and one bad one)

Gronan of Simmerya · December 06, 2017, 10:52:08 AM

Quote from: Voros;1011469Is randomization really the 'best' approach to a megadungeon?

Only if you're a booger-eating moron who's too stupid to shit unassisted.

Ratman_tf · December 06, 2017, 11:48:51 AM

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1011596Only if you're a booger-eating moron who's too stupid to shit unassisted.

Seriously, do you have some kind of bipolar condition? Sometimes you're coherent, and sometimes you snap at the most mundane posts with a lot of bile and vitiriol.

Gronan of Simmerya · December 06, 2017, 01:15:12 PM

No, just grumpy.

Also, the idea of randomizing an entire dungeon is and always has been a stupid idea. All the way back in OD&D it was made clear that the random tables are to fill out bits here and there, and that's been carried forward. I don't know who told poor Voros that randomizing an entire dungeon was a good idea, but they were a booger-eating moron.

S'mon · December 06, 2017, 01:52:15 PM

DM David also has great stuff on Megadungeon play - http://dmdavid.com/tag/when-megadungeons-ruled-dungeons-dragons/

S'mon · December 06, 2017, 01:55:20 PM

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1011614I don't know who told poor Voros that randomizing an entire dungeon was a good idea, but they were a booger-eating moron.

Well, Voros does like to hugely misinterpret me sometimes.

Gronan of Simmerya · December 06, 2017, 02:00:23 PM

Much like a good outdoor sandbox is mostly outlined with some randomized elements, so is a good dungeon.

The random elements are part of what makes it fun for the referee. I will have an NPC's general attitude described, but.. is she in a good mood or a bad mood today? That influences what happens after she says "Who dares invade the sanctuary of the Queen of Pain and Delight?"

Spellslinging Sellsword · December 06, 2017, 07:13:18 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1011607Seriously, do you have some kind of bipolar condition? Sometimes you're coherent, and sometimes you snap at the most mundane posts with a lot of bile and vitiriol.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1011630The random elements are part of what makes it fun for the referee. I will have an NPC's general attitude described, but.. is she in a good mood or a bad mood today? That influences what happens after she says "Who dares invade the sanctuary of the Queen of Pain and Delight?"

We've seen behind the screen, Gronan rolls dice for his reaction rolls to posts!

Voros · December 06, 2017, 11:08:52 PM

Quote from: S'mon;1011628Well, Voros does like to hugely misinterpret me sometimes.

There are completely randomized OSR dungeons, Castle Gargantua and Dungeon Full of Momsters for instance. And there are those on DF or K&KA who claim to have built dungeons just using the dungeon tables in the 1e DMG.

Gronan of Simmerya · December 07, 2017, 12:44:04 AM

Just because one can do something, does not mean one should.

There is, or at least used to be, a contest for the most obtuse and hard to understand C program. Anybody who pulled any of that shit in a work environment should be fired immediately.

Ratman_tf · December 07, 2017, 11:31:09 AM

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1011765Just because one can do something, does not mean one should.

Or shouldn't. My brother once ran an off-the-cuff AD&D game using primarily random encounters and the random dungeon generator. It was a blast and we all had a lot of fun. He'd interpret the rolls to create scenarios. "Why are the gnomes in the goblin cave? Let's find out."

EOTB · December 07, 2017, 01:34:57 PM

Quote from: Voros;1011739There are completely randomized OSR dungeons, Castle Gargantua and Dungeon Full of Momsters for instance. And there are those on DF or K&KA who claim to have built dungeons just using the dungeon tables in the 1e DMG.

I have never seen anyone on DF or K&KA say that randomization is the 'best' approach to a megadungeon. I've seen people messing around with Appendix A and discussing it - something I suspect 95% of the people who've owned the DMG have done. But I've never even seen anyone dogmatically constructing their dungeons using that tool alone, unless they were a noobie who's coming for advice because they thought that's what people did. And then they were given better advice.

Please don't use DF or K&KA as a boogeyman.

Voros · December 08, 2017, 03:42:15 AM

But I didn't say anyone on those forums said it was the best way did I?

I said they 'claim they have bult dungeons just using the dungeon tables in 1e DMG' as an example of people discussing using complete randomization to build dungeons since some suggested that fully randomized dungeons didn't exist.

I was no more using it as a boogeyman than I was using Castle Gargantua (which I own) or Dungeon Full of Monsters (whose designer's other work I like and intend to pick up sometime) as 'boogeymen.'

S'mon · December 08, 2017, 04:14:35 AM

Quote from: Voros;1011739There are completely randomized OSR dungeons, Castle Gargantua and Dungeon Full of Momsters for instance. And there are those on DF or K&KA who claim to have built dungeons just using the dungeon tables in the 1e DMG.

I think you know I wasn't talking about randomly generating dungeons (I rem using computer generated dungeons in the early 2000s - they sucked). I just meant stuff like having a wandering monster table, maybe a separate restock table, maybe a minor room contents table. Stonehell has some areas like the Crypts in the Quiet Halls that use a special random contents table; it works well in context because a dark power is randomly generating undead. But there is also lots of keyed stuff.

Voros · December 08, 2017, 04:32:02 AM

Yeah I think we're not far off, I was referring more to some of the blog links that seemed really loose in approach (eg. the Hack and Slash post). I think that approach can work well for any kind of game with an experienced GM but most newer or even moderately experienced DMs could seriously struggle or burn out using that approach too much.

Telarus · December 09, 2017, 03:18:12 PM

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1011630Much like a good outdoor sandbox is mostly outlined with some randomized elements, so is a good dungeon.

The random elements are part of what makes it fun for the referee. I will have an NPC's general attitude described, but.. is she in a good mood or a bad mood today? That influences what happens after she says "Who dares invade the sanctuary of the Queen of Pain and Delight?"

In the video game design world, we tossed out the term "randomization" for the term "procedural generation". This is a great example, the mental state of the NPC is procedurally generated at the time it is important (as opposed to "pre-rendered when the area was designed"). The GM has to be OK with not knowing the NPCs mental state until it becomes important, and be able to incorporate the result of the procedural process with the other events happening in the scene.