Quote from: Voros;1006486Death cleric appeared in UA and may be in the upcoming hardcover.

Is that the Cleric of Gloom? Seemed like a bit of a cop out to me. They should have just included the Death Domain from the start. It would have been no more controversial than including the School of Necromancy for Wizards.

Generally though, I like the choices for Clerics and Dwarven Forge Clerics will be popular too, I'm thinking.

Quote from: Brand55;1006292Monks can do consistent damage but not high damage. Multiple attacks (which really require ki usage to do the full flurry) mean multiple chances to miss, and even if they're hitting consistently monks don't typically dish out the same amount of damage as most other melee classes can do without burning resources because they don't have access to high-damage attacks until late game and can't make much use of the damage-boosting Feats.

Monks do best when they do flanking or sneak attacks (to gain advantage), but they get to add damage bonuses on each successful attack, so they do add up. I think they are the only Class that can multi-attack at 1st level, and they get to add more as they level up. Even if they are unarmed (D4), they are going to dish out a possible +3 Dex Bonus damage on each hit. So two successful hits can accrue between 8-14 points and even one hit will still do a minimum of 4 points. For a 1st level character, not spending spell points or the like, that's a fair amount of potential damage each round. When you get to 2nd level and above, you can start to take other martial options (extra attack, or dodge or disengage) or Monastic effects that push targets around, etc. They can become pretty formidable with the right tactics - if they keep moving, they can do incremental damage without the risk of being attacked back.

At 5th level, with an extra attack, they are capable of attacking up to four times! (Ki- Bonus x2, extra attack +1). If you boost the Dex Ability bonus too (to +4), along with increasing unarmed damage (D6), you could be doing up to 30+ damage in a round from a sneaky attack.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;1006664Monks do best when they do flanking or sneak attacks (to gain advantage), but they get to add damage bonuses on each successful attack, so they do add up. I think they are the only Class that can multi-attack at 1st level, and they get to add more as they level up. Even if they are unarmed (D4), they are going to dish out a possible +3 Dex Bonus damage on each hit. So two successful hits can accrue between 8-14 points and even one hit will still do a minimum of 4 points. For a 1st level character, not spending spell points or the like, that's a fair amount of potential damage each round. When you get to 2nd level and above, you can start to take other martial options (extra attack, or dodge or disengage) or Monastic effects that push targets around, etc. They can become pretty formidable with the right tactics - if they keep moving, they can do incremental damage without the risk of being attacked back.

At 5th level, with an extra attack, they are capable of attacking up to four times! (Ki- Bonus x2, extra attack +1). If you boost the Dex Ability bonus too (to +4), along with increasing unarmed damage (D6), you could be doing up to 30+ damage in a round from a sneaky attack.

I'm not disputing any of that. Again, consistent damage. You're completely ignoring defense and spending precious points to do 30 damage in a round. That's solid but hardly a high amount of damage, and it's not something a monk can do very much. It's also a good way to go down as leaving yourself open like that (monks have mediocre AC and trash HP for a melee class) means you'll fall easily if the enemies target you, which I saw happen way too often. Monk speed and the Mobile Feat are great for avoiding slow, melee-only monsters, but there are an awful lot of enemies that will still be able to attack you.

My issue with the Open Palm Monk is that it looks like this cool melee class but it doesn't know what it wants to be. It could be a controller, but those abilities fail way too much and are limited in usage. It's not a good damage dealer compared to the other melee classes, and it's not tough enough to serve as any sort of tank since Dodge is also limited. The mobility is cool but surprisingly lacking in some ways; my wood elf monk couldn't even out-jump the dwarf fighter in our group thanks to 5e stripping that power from monks and tying jumping distance to Strength. The end result is an archetype that is forced to serve as some sort of skirmisher with mediocre melee abilities all-around compared to other classes. It would have been nice to see the controller abilities be less restricted in their use, for example. That would have allowed monks to keep using those abilities, however successful or not they might be, without worrying about burning precious ki points.

Quote from: Brand55;1006671I'm not disputing any of that. Again, consistent damage. You're completely ignoring defense and spending precious points to do 30 damage in a round. That's solid but hardly a high amount of damage, and it's not something a monk can do very much. It's also a good way to go down as leaving yourself open like that (monks have mediocre AC and trash HP for a melee class) means you'll fall easily if the enemies target you, which I saw happen way too often. Monk speed and the Mobile Feat are great for avoiding slow, melee-only monsters, but there are an awful lot of enemies that will still be able to attack you.

My issue with the Open Palm Monk is that it looks like this cool melee class but it doesn't know what it wants to be. It could be a controller, but those abilities fail way too much and are limited in usage. It's not a good damage dealer compared to the other melee classes, and it's not tough enough to serve as any sort of tank since Dodge is also limited. The mobility is cool but surprisingly lacking in some ways; my wood elf monk couldn't even out-jump the dwarf fighter in our group thanks to 5e stripping that power from monks and tying jumping distance to Strength. The end result is an archetype that is forced to serve as some sort of skirmisher with mediocre melee abilities all-around compared to other classes. It would have been nice to see the controller abilities be less restricted in their use, for example. That would have allowed monks to keep using those abilities, however successful or not they might be, without worrying about burning precious ki points.

Note that you don't have to spend any Ki points and you'd still be able to do three attacks at 5th level as much as you want. I wouldn't use a Monk as a tank regardless though - they are a skirmish striker, more akin to a Rogue. It's the judicious use of Dodge and Disengage, and manoeuvring to get an Advantage that keeps Monks effective in combat. While the Rogue operates on a single precise strike for a sneak attack, the Monk works on a multi attack basis. While you could argue that you need to hit more against whatever defence, it also serves to levee the potency of the attack by having more chances to hit - each with a Dex based damage bonus, which does crank up into healthy totals, quite regularly. Moreover, even if they don't have Advantage, they can still attack front on (and then disengage).

Quote from: TrippyHippy;1006683Note that you don't have to spend any Ki points and you'd still be able to do three attacks at 5th level as much as you want. I wouldn't use a Monk as a tank regardless though - they are a skirmish striker, more akin to a Rogue. It's the judicious use of Dodge and Disengage, and manoeuvring to get an Advantage that keeps Monks effective in combat. While the Rogue operates on a single precise strike for a sneak attack, the Monk works on a multi attack basis. While you could argue that you need to hit more against whatever defence, it also serves to levee the potency of the attack by having more chances to hit - each with a Dex based damage bonus, which does crank up into healthy totals, quite regularly. Moreover, even if they don't have Advantage, they can still attack front on (and then disengage).

Apples and oranges, really. Sure, Rogues can serve as decent skirmishers but the same character can deal excellent damage from range, roughly double what your Monk can pump out. They also get to Dodge for free when they need to. And all of this is ignoring all of the other class features that Rogues have, which are generally much better out of combat than the Open Palm Monk and make the Rogue a much more rounded option.

Whats the point of this open palm mobk again.  Moblity and soft control?  Why do you need mobility?  To get to the enemy?  Or to give and gain advantage?

If you want control you want a grappler.  Which brings me back to the moon druid grappler.  No weapons, no armor just bear form jujitsu.  It helps to take bar room brawler, so you can get a free grapple when you hit with a bear claw.  

If you want to really twink out give him mage slayer as well and make him the varient (drow I think) from unearthed arcana that gets dispell magic as a racial ability.

The general thinking with OP Monks is that they can use their abilities to get in and out of combat easily, avoiding enemy attacks almost entirely while they dish out some damage and alter the battlefield with knockdown effects, stuns, etc. It makes for good white room scenarios, but in reality an awful lot of enemies have faster movement rates, alternate methods of movement, or ranged attacks/effects that make avoiding damage almost impossible. I actually had a lot more success safely doing damage and altering the battlefield with the Warlock. Eldritch Blast damage with Hex was on par with Monk damage, could be done at range, and pushed enemies around to help pop allies free or (occasionally) sent them flying into obstacles.

I don't recall the grappling rules that well, but I know Moon Druids are pretty badass at lower levels already. Our campaign just used the three core books and I don't recall Bar Room Brawler. Was that in one of the supplements?

Quote from: Brand55;1006689Apples and oranges, really. Sure, Rogues can serve as decent skirmishers but the same character can deal excellent damage from range, roughly double what your Monk can pump out. They also get to Dodge for free when they need to. And all of this is ignoring all of the other class features that Rogues have, which are generally much better out of combat than the Open Palm Monk and make the Rogue a much more rounded option.

Sure, the flavour of what you want to play is the key. Monks don't have to be Open Hand, of course, and can actually do multi-attacks with some simple ranged weapons too (darts, daggers, hand-axes, etc) if they want to. Rogues can Dash, Disengage and Hide as a Cunning (Bonus) action, but not Dodge without taking a full action. Monks can Dodge with Ki expenditure and a Bonus Action - this means every attack against them is at a Disadvantage, while still allowing them to attack. They unarmored AC is normally higher than a Rogue too (assuming similar stats), can possibly push opponents around (if Open Hand) and basically are better in full melee situations. Rogues do have more skills, and some high level ones, so this makes them more versatile as character types, but it really depends what you want.

One of the feats in the players hand book.  
-your unarmed attacks do 1d4,
- you are proficient with improvised weapons.
-When you hit with an unarmed attack or an improvised weapon you can atart a grapple for free.

From what I've seen of moon druid at higher level they can do some cool stuff, and really take a pounding but they can't do much damage.  So make them grapple and they go for control instead of damage.  And how else do you get a jujitsu giant ground sloth?

If you are going for battle field mobility you should throw the eagle totem barbarian in the mix as well.  And he can use great weapon master when he gets there.  You don't need to stun when you can chop the enemy in half with one blow.

Oh, Totem Barbarians are a blast. My friend's wife ran with the bear totem and that girl was an absolute wrecking ball, able to unload major damage and absorb hits like crazy as she charged around the battlefield. Barbarians with two-handers are nothing to sneeze at.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;1006696Sure, the flavour of what you want to play is the key. Monks don't have to be Open Hand, of course, and can actually do multi-attacks with some simple ranged weapons too (darts, daggers, hand-axes, etc) if they want to. Rogues can Dash, Disengage and Hide as a Cunning (Bonus) action, but not Dodge without taking a full action. Monks can Dodge with Ki expenditure and a Bonus Action - this means every attack against them is at a Disadvantage, while still allowing them to attack. They unarmored AC is normally higher than a Rogue too (assuming similar stats), can possibly push opponents around (if Open Hand) and basically are better in full melee situations. Rogues do have more skills, and some high level ones, so this makes them more versatile as character types, but it really depends what you want.

Rogue AC won't be that far behind since they will likely have maxed Dex ASAP and magical armor if the setting allows for it. And yeah, I was thinking of Disengage instead of Dodge earlier and got those mixed up. The need for Ki to Disengage as a bonus action almost makes Mobile a required Feat for Monks who want to play the skirmish game. Not that that's a terrible thing, as it's a great Feat, but it sucks that Rogues get to do that stuff for free when Monks can't. All in all, I'd say better non-combat options, way better ranged combat ability, and only slightly worse melee combat ability makes the Rogue an overall more attractive class.

Anyway, I was only referring to the Open Hand Monk since that's what I played and it's the only type I've seen in play. The Four Elements Monk looks really underwhelming, but I could see some possible fun to be had with Shadow Monks. Shadow Step is just begging for shenanigans to be carried out.

Quote from: Brand55;1006705Oh, Totem Barbarians are a blast. My friend's wife ran with the bear totem and that girl was an absolute wrecking ball, able to unload major damage and absorb hits like crazy as she charged around the battlefield. Barbarians with two-handers are nothing to sneeze at.

Rogue AC won't be that far behind since they will likely have maxed Dex ASAP and magical armor if the setting allows for it. And yeah, I was thinking of Disengage instead of Dodge earlier and got those mixed up. The need for Ki to Disengage as a bonus action almost makes Mobile a required Feat for Monks who want to play the skirmish game. Not that that's a terrible thing, as it's a great Feat, but it sucks that Rogues get to do that stuff for free when Monks can't. All in all, I'd say better non-combat options, way better ranged combat ability, and only slightly worse melee combat ability makes the Rogue an overall more attractive class.

Anyway, I was only referring to the Open Hand Monk since that's what I played and it's the only type I've seen in play. The Four Elements Monk looks really underwhelming, but I could see some possible fun to be had with Shadow Monks. Shadow Step is just begging for shenanigans to be carried out.

Monks move faster anyway - they get Unarmored Movement at 2nd level (+10' and mostly the same as Mobile) which increases at higher levels. When you use a Ki point to disengage you can jump twice as far as usual. If you use Open Hand, you can also just push the opponent away if you successfully hit them. There are other Class abilities (Deflect Missiles, Slow Fall, Stunning strike, etc) that can all be integrated as options without recourse to any Feats. Shadow Monks are particularly cool because they can create and perceive through total darkness.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;1006711Monks move faster anyway - they get Unarmored Movement at 2nd level (+10' and mostly the same as Mobile) which increases at higher levels. When you use a Ki point to disengage you can jump twice as far as usual. If you use Open Hand, you can also just push the opponent away if you successfully hit them. There are other Class abilities (Deflect Missiles, Slow Fall, Stunning strike, etc) that can all be integrated as options without recourse to any Feats. Shadow Monks are particularly cool because they can create and perceive through total darkness.

Actually, I found the best part of Mobile to be the ability to safely leave combat after making a melee attack. Pushing foes away requires both Ki expenditure (since it can only be done with a Flurry of Blows) and a failed Strength ST. IME, the various strikes that called for saving throws were passed at least half the time, so they were never something I could rely on. My most common combo was to try to knock an opponent prone and then push with the FoB, but I think I only ever managed to pull off both successfully once or twice. Taking away enemy reactions actually saw a lot more use than I'd originally expected since it didn't require a saving throw and helped allies get away.

If I ever play in another campaign, I'd probably try the Shadow Monk if it weren't for the fact my first two characters were a different Monk and a darkness-focused Tomelock.

Quote from: Brand55;1006713Actually, I found the best part of Mobile to be the ability to safely leave combat after making a melee attack.

The Swashbuckler & Scout Rogues in Xanathar's Guide to Everything will be really good at this without the feat.

Quote from: Brand55;1006705Rogue AC won't be that far behind since they will likely have maxed Dex ASAP and magical armor if the setting allows for it. And yeah, I was thinking of Disengage instead of Dodge earlier and got those mixed up. The need for Ki to Disengage as a bonus action almost makes Mobile a required Feat for Monks who want to play the skirmish game. Not that that's a terrible thing, as it's a great Feat, but it sucks that Rogues get to do that stuff for free when Monks can't. All in all, I'd say better non-combat options, way better ranged combat ability, and only slightly worse melee combat ability makes the Rogue an overall more attractive class.

I think you may have been trying to pound a round peg into a square hole.  Monks can do a TON of stuff that Rogues can't do some of which makes them far more mobile.  You can run on liquids and vertical surfaces at 9th level for crying out loud.  You get Ki equal to your level and it refreshes on a short rest -- that's limited but not severely so.  From 5th level on you can make 4 attacks without spending Ki and by then you should know when a fight calls for Ki and when it doesn't.

Furthermore Open Hand Technique lets you remove an enemy's reactions for a turn while using Flurry.  There's no save or anything so this is 100% reliable.  You can move 20', lay the smack down for 1 Ki, and then move 20' away without any fear of reprisal from that enemy.  Even funnier you could attack up to 4 different (6 at 5th level) enemies with this and make them all lose their reactions and just run away.  Weak enemies like Kobolds?  Charge in and blow 4 or 6 of them 15' away like a minion explosion.

Rogues can't shrug off frightened or charmed, aren't immune to disease and poison, can't speak every language, and get a free heal every long rest.

Most of the problems people have with classes in 5e is that they wrote the wrong class on their character sheet.