Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1005128Agree with the general drift.  I like the weapon specialization rules, but if ever anything needed to have the 80/20 rule ruthlessly applied to it by a good editor, that section is it.

Aside:  Don't see how the 5E rogue opportunity attack is all that versus the 5E fighter, since the rogue only gets sneak attack once per round, whether in is regular attacks or as his reaction.

Rogue sneak attacks once per turn. And yes, it's both RAW and RAI.

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-february-2016

Jeremy Crawford is a surprisingly good rules writer. Most of the times some nuance has been brought up, he confirms that it is in fact worded precisely that way for precisely that reason.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1005139Ah, I see.  I'm playing core rules only, and the intent and text there is fairly clear that sneak attack is once per round.  Rant:  I don't know why they bother to have Sage Advice and errata, if they people writing it don't even understand their own game.

It literally says "once per turn," not "once per round."

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1005344Regardless, weren't we here to talk about BECMI?

We are, though I think for the reasons you originally brought it up, the 5E example is a good one.  

Let me be more clear.  The intent of the underlying math is that fighters should be more lockdown than anyone else.  The rules in play at the table should reflect that.  This is true for BECMI/RC and 5E, even if the person writing the rules doesn't understand this, and thinks that rogues should get sneak attack more often than they do, or that BECMI/RC fighters are given poorly worded options that could be done better to achieve that intent.

At your table, you can do whatever you want.

One peculiarity about Rules Compendium weapon specialization is that fighters don't actually get much of an advantage. At least, not as I read the rules. They begin with more weapon specialty slots but have to spend them all at 1st level and can't double up on anything. Then all classes gain weapon specialty slots at the same rate as they level up (one at 3rd, etc.). So, unless I've missed something it is just as easy for a thief or wizard to specialize in their weapon as it is for a fighter. Unless I'm forgetting some other rule, like only fighters can use the higher levels of specialization?

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1005365Let me be more clear.  The intent of the underlying math is that fighters should be more lockdown than anyone else.

Underlying math of what? The platonic form of D&D? The math is whatever the rules say it is. As far as 5e goes, there are several classes with higher single-attack damage than a Fighter.

QuoteThe rules in play at the table should reflect that.  This is true for BECMI/RC and 5E, even if the person writing the rules doesn't understand this, and thinks that rogues should get sneak attack more often than they do,

What are you even talking about? What does it even mean for the real mechanic to work differently from how it is explicitly written, especially after the writer explicitly affirms it was intentionally written that way?

Quote from: Larsdangly;1005371One peculiarity about Rules Compendium weapon specialization is that fighters don't actually get much of an advantage. At least, not as I read the rules. They begin with more weapon specialty slots but have to spend them all at 1st level and can't double up on anything. Then all classes gain weapon specialty slots at the same rate as they level up (one at 3rd, etc.). So, unless I've missed something it is just as easy for a thief or wizard to specialize in their weapon as it is for a fighter. Unless I'm forgetting some other rule, like only fighters can use the higher levels of specialization?

That's not the way I remember it, but I don't have the rules at hand either.  I thought fighters (and maybe dwarves?) were on a different progression for weapon specialization slots that advanced faster than everyone else, and only a few classes could max out?

Quote from: Larsdangly;1005371One peculiarity about Rules Compendium weapon specialization is that fighters don't actually get much of an advantage. At least, not as I read the rules. They begin with more weapon specialty slots but have to spend them all at 1st level and can't double up on anything. Then all classes gain weapon specialty slots at the same rate as they level up (one at 3rd, etc.). So, unless I've missed something it is just as easy for a thief or wizard to specialize in their weapon as it is for a fighter. Unless I'm forgetting some other rule, like only fighters can use the higher levels of specialization?

Well, human fighters get another 3 additional slots as they level, for a total of 15 over 36 levels instead of 10 (which, when it takes 5 to max out, is significant). But otherwise, not within the rules structure specific to weapon mastery. Fighters still get to use the nice weapons, and as they level up, the differences between a warhammer and sling compared to a bow, sword, and 2h sword are pretty significant (if, and only if, you overlook the fact that deflect is the best thing to acquire and all classes can use staves, so everyone gets that).

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1005365We are, though I think for the reasons you originally brought it up, the 5E example is a good one.  

Let me be more clear.  The intent of the underlying math is that fighters should be more lockdown than anyone else.  The rules in play at the table should reflect that.  This is true for BECMI/RC and 5E, even if the person writing the rules doesn't understand this, and thinks that rogues should get sneak attack more often than they do, or that BECMI/RC fighters are given poorly worded options that could be done better to achieve that intent.

At your table, you can do whatever you want.

I think what you mean to say is that the underlying intent is that the fighter class should be the best at lockdown.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1005382I think what you mean to say is that the underlying intent is that the fighter class should be the best at lockdown.

No.  I meant what I said.  It's pretty clear from the playtest materials and looking at the math of the system, the escalating damage/hit dice, the "bounded accuracy" effects.  They struggled with this throughout the playtest, as in such examples as the very crude flat damage bonus they used at times.  Their problem even then was that they didn't like what the math was telling them, as it made the fighter feel too powerful.  They can't quite square that circle of how to make a fighter that does what they want with one that the wider set of players will accept.  Instead, they try to get around it with limiting other classes.  People don't like that either, even though it fits the math.

Well, the only way the fighter is really the best at "lockdown" is if you play with optional marking rules. Otherwise, rogues, rangers, paladins, barbarians, and even certain clerics have potentially harder-hitting opportunity attacks. The best a fighter can do with OAs is be a battle master and spend superiority dice. Another option is to use your Action to Shove + Grapple once you have a second attack.

5e default Fighter is a 'striker' (damage) not a 'defender' (lockdown). You can make a lockdown Fighter with feats like Sentinel. But the Fighter is the only class with 3 & at last 4 attacks, that's his big distinguishing feature in 5e. Lots of attacks.

Quote from: S'mon;10056135e default Fighter is a 'striker' (damage) not a 'defender' (lockdown). You can make a lockdown Fighter with feats like Sentinel. But the Fighter is the only class with 3 & at last 4 attacks, that's his big distinguishing feature in 5e. Lots of attacks.

An open hand stylist Monk gets 4 attacks per round as long as they have Ki points to spend from level 5 on up, it's not that big a deal.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1005727An open hand stylist Monk gets 4 attacks per round as long as they have Ki points to spend from level 5 on up, it's not that big a deal.

Yeah but they're burning resources they could use on other stuff.

The Fighter gets it just for being the Fighter.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1005730Yeah but they're burning resources they could use on other stuff.

The Fighter gets it just for being the Fighter.

By level 20.  Which is the cap, and most players (in MY experience) don't ever get that high.  Compare that with the Ki spending Monk, that can get between 3-4 attacks, depending on whether or not the player spends the point.  And if we're going for three attacks, then we have the Ranger, Paladin and Barbarian who can dual wield to get the same amount of attacks at the level (which is 5.)  The fighter's extra attacks are a distraction to this conversation.

Fighter is the only class that gets by default 3 attacks/round at level 11, no resources spent. IME it's one of the most significant features of the class. Obviously anyone can get +1 attack (+2 for Monk) with a bonus action using TWF, feat, Ki etc. It's not a distraction unless your games never get above 10th. Before 10th IME Fighter is a rather weak class, notable only for Action Surge. Again it's a mostly damage-dealing power.

Fighters probably don't do as much damage as Paladins, another 5e Striker class. But it's still a Striker. If you want a Defender then 5e Barbarian is best - complete reverse from 4e.

QuoteBefore 10th IME Fighter is a rather weak class, notable only for Action Surge.

The second ASI at 6th level is actually a pretty big deal, and so is their subclass.

QuoteFighters probably don't do as much damage as Paladins, another 5e Striker class.

I think they probably do more at almost any given level.