One word: Rifts.

Earthdawn 4E breakdown (Quickstart rules: http://www.fasagames.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_102_128_103&products_id=1144 )
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Races - Dwarf, Elf, Human, Ork (a la shadowrun), Troll(a la shadowrun), T'skrang (lizardman/saurial), Obsidiman (earth elemental person), Windling ("pixie"). No mono-race cultures & some very cereative takes on D&D tropes (the common language is dwarven because they are the most powerful trading kingdom, the "fallen elven court" in self-isolation has broken the global "elven culture", "lizardmen trading guilds" w/ steam-powered riverboats, "ork cavalry tribes" that read like native americans + mongols, etc). Optional Modules: Your elf can have black skin and glow in the dark hair, there is a breed of flying t'skrang, and windlings change color to mach their environment. Oh, and there's a mechanical reason to play a Human! (see Classes) Nuff said.

Stats - Standard stats: Strength(Str), Dexterity(Dex), Toughness(Con), Perception(Int), Willpower(Wis), Charisma(Cha). Generate values "3-18+", calculate "Step" (i.e.  "attribute bonus"). Step = value/3(round down)+1. All powers/weapons/etc add to an Ability Step ("unified step system") or one of the other stats that is derived from an ability. The final Step determines what dice you roll, i.e. for unarmed combat damage roll your Strength Step, for Broadsword damage roll Step Str+5. Stats determine 3 defense ratings: Physical Defense (Dexterity), Mystic Defense(Perception), Social Defense (Charisma). Convert any old-school character statblock easily!

Classes - All classes (called "Disciplines" in-setting) make use of magic and are modeled in-game as various cults/secret-societies/warrior-guilds/etc.
Disciplines: Fighter, Thief, Cleric, Mage. Levels (called "Circle" in-setting) go 1-15 (BECMI range divided by 2). Classes provide Active Defense abilities & other powers. Spells act as "slot-able" powers (limited slots re-interpret "Vancian Magic" instead of X-per-day). Customizable powers list as you advance (replaces "Feats" etc). Limited skill system for even more personalization (if the group wants to), and to design non-magical threats. Hero-levels for post-(8th) level play where you can do "epic-fantasy" stuff with good meaty options (Check -Tel). Multi-class system (Check- Tel). *Human note: the other races must specialize in a Discipline, but humans can learn a Discipline _and_ learn indivdual Talents from other Adepts through a talent called Versatility. Best reason to play a human in any game I've ran.

HP(Damage/Wounds) - Instead of reducing a pool of points to zero, Damage is tracked and a character is KO'd or Dead when the Damage Total reaches their Unconciousness Rating or Death Rating. These are determined by Toughness (base) with +X/+Y per level depending on class. Each cahracter also has a Wound Threshold (also determined by Toughness). Any damage that makes it past armor over the Wound Threashold from a single source causes a Wound. Each Wound causes a -1 modifier to all Steps/Tests (and no healing Damge until you've healed your Wounds). Limited pool of "Recovery Tests" (based on Toughness) to spend each day, requires a long rest (1 hr) or magic (healing potion, adds bonus) to trigger a Recovery test.

Skills/Talents/Spells/Powers - Small skill lists. Most PC abilities are magical powers called Talents (magical versions of mundane skills and other crazier stuff), and each Discipline grants access to a different set of possible Talents. Spells are powers you can swap in and out of your "active slots" (called matricies).

Saving Throws - Nope, everything is handled by the Defense Ratings and Active Defense powers (dodge, riposte, etc).

Combat - Very OSR or D&D2e flavored. Fighters get effect-attacks or multiple hits per turn. Ranged specialists, thieves/scouts, "Grey Mouser" style swordsmen, backline mages, frontline mages in armor w/ shields, beastmaster w/ pets, elementalist w/ spirits, & mounted cavalry are all common in-setting elements.

Spellcasting - 4 types of mage (no Clerics, but see note on Religion) get specific spell-lists using a pseudo-Vancian system. You can know any number of spells, but only have access to those that you have slotted into a "matrix" in order to avoid astral taint and Horrors when casting the spell. Spells in Matrix slots can be cast freely as long as the caster can gather the right amount of mana (called "threading" the spell). Mage types: Wizard (Gandalf + Dumbledore + Sherlock Holmes), Elementalist (Prospero from the Tempest + Kora/Grandpa-Iro from Avatar + Druids), Illusionist (The Wizard of Oz + Morgana le Fey + Loki), & Nethermancers (Leonardo da Vinci + Dr Strange + every sorcerer from every Conan story ever). Casting spells takes a Spellcasting-talent test vs target's Mystic Defense. Illusionary damage is real if you fail to disbelieve it when it hits, & illusionists have "real" versions of their spells (that do slightly less damage) so it's really freaking hard to predict that stuff.

Gear - Armor absorbs damage (armor is rated for Physical Armor & Mystic Armor). Armor modifies Initiative. Shields add to Defense Ratings (provide partial cover). Weapons do variable Str Step+Weapon Step damage.

Miscellaneous Optional Modules - Magical Items require unlocking their story to unlock their powers, items evolve as characters level up. No alignment, no "gods" with unified worship (the "Passions" are Named Spirits that each culture worships in a unique-but-related way, some dedicated followers of the Passions are called Questors and are granted some magical abilities - 4E aims to re-design how this works).

That's a good overview. I'd be happy to handle any questions.

Quote from: estar;1002236It seems it designed precisely for a Robin Hood versus Sir Guy fight.

Original D&D hit points were designed for the Robin Hood vs Sir Guy fight. That is why I referenced that movie and that scene. I don't care about the Vitality stuff you linked to nor do I care about what the person who designed it thinks they were trying to do.

QuoteWhen I say something not very D&Dish one possible reason it because it entail a lot of extra work to implement properly.

Including body and stamina is not a lot of work. And it doesn't require creatures have specific constitutions.

QuoteAs a general comment, pile enough of these on to the D&D framework and the game becomes different enough to where the question becomes "why bother with using D&D in the first place?

That is the first question I'd ask myself even before modifying anything.

All I can say for sure is that I'd be spending a ridiculous amount of time working on currency and trade.

Quote from: Bren;1002033I'd split hit points into Body and Stamina to address a lot of the oddities of damage from missile weapons and healing "wounds" that aren't actually wounds.

I like this idea, it doesn't even have to be complicated, could be as simple as 1/4 CON HP or 25% of HP is actual injury and takes more time to heal than the 75% (or what have you) "stamina" HP which may heal quickly.

Obviously higher level characters have more access to magical healing so it rarely comes up, but it always seemed odd that a 10th level fighter (50-100hp typically) wounded down to 1HP takes longer to heal naturally than a 1st level thief wounded down to 1HP (typically 3-6hp).

Even something like resting 8 hours heals 50% of HP or some such would be an improvement over the 1HP a day thing. The idea of gaining HP is supposed to represent better skill / stamina so a 1st level characters HP is mostly actual toughness while 2nd+ adds skill / stamina to avoid real injury. Using this logic all HP shouldn't be equal when it comes to healing.

Edit to add: Actually "real" HP are really only 1-4 assuming the idea behind different die types per class represents ability to avoid real damage with the least martial types rolling a d4, and greater fighting ability / toughness escalates through d6, d8 up to fighters with their d10. If this is the case then in theory even a 1st level fighter with max HP is something like 4 HP actual body, and 6 HP "stamina".

Quote from: estar;1002236When I say something not very D&Dish one possible reason it because it entail a lot of extra work to implement properly. Wounds and Vitality is straightforward with D&D 3.X, 4e, and 5e because every creature has attributes.  So you have a constitution stat as foundation. But that means in whatever heartbreaker you are designing every creature has to have attributes. Or if you forego that still have to go through every creature and decide what their wound value is based on whatever criteria. Any traditional D&D supplement that a gamer uses has to be converted to use wounds.

It not a ton of work but it is additional work. This is opposed to doing something like adding double the damage die on a natural 20. It has a consequence for how the campaign plays out however it doesn't generate a lot of extra work when the players and referee use other D&D material 'as is'.

As a general comment, pile enough of these on to the D&D framework and the game becomes different enough to where the question becomes "why bother with using D&D in the first place?

I also agree with this, and it is a major reason I don't care for 3rd ed / Pathfinder. I like D&D as a fairly quick and easy game to set up and run. If it takes me an hour + to make a character I may as well play BRP, GURPS or HERO. If as a GM I have to create minor characters, then again I may as well pull out BRP, GURPS or HERO.

When I play D&D by choice it is because I want something quick and easy to play.

STATS Just four: STR, DEX, MIND, PRESENCE. 2d6+4 down the line to start. When you level, roll 4d6 twice. If the result exceeds a stat, raise it. Max=18.

SKILLS Black Hack style, as in "You have advantage when...(YHAW)" No set skill list. Things that pass for such are listed in the "YHAW" section

CORE MECHANICd20+full stat vs. a DC (base is 20+mods for difficulty). Player facing rolls (roll for attack and defense).

CLASSES Race as Class. Each class has a "Class Dice," which serves as HP/Dmg dice. Each class has special abilities (some of which may scale by level). No Clerics, but Clerical magic is on the list, and traditional clerical abilities (turning undead) are spells.

SPELLS Mana Pool or Exhaustion Threshold, with increasing consequences if you attempt to push the limits. Prefer old school spells, or something akin to Freebooters on the Frontier, where you roll a spell name, then you determine its usage (can pick from a menu of options for the mechanical effects). Prefer a single pool of magical spells, whatever the case, which lesser access for classes that are not Wizards/Mages. Your class level IS your spell level.

LEVELS Max Level is 9. XP/needed=reset to 0 each level; target for next level is Next Level x 20. Get XP's based on answers from a list of Q's (ex: "Did we overcome a notable adversary?" "Did we loot any treasure?" etc.). Roll 2 "Class Dice" when leveling, add together.

MONSTERS Old school monsters.

On further reflection I do like the class "pool", feats what have you that came out of 3E. Rather than multi-class characters I'd like to be able to tweak a class, so you could pull the stealth and traps abilities from the thief class and use the fighting table from the fighter class, but lose the pickpocket and backstabbing keep the d6 hit die of the thief class. So more of a scout or dungeon guide than criminal or man at arms. I chafe under the restrictions of most class based systems.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1002329I like this idea, it doesn't even have to be complicated, could be as simple as 1/4 CON HP or 25% of HP is actual injury and takes more time to heal than the 75% (or what have you) "stamina" HP which may heal quickly.

I don't exactly recall the rules we used (there were a few variations), but hit points after level 1 mostly added to Stamina. I seem to recall 1 point/level went to Body and the rest went to Stamina. At first level the ratios were (roughly speaking) reversed. So most of the first level starting hit points were Body with maybe 1 or 2 points going to Stamina.

QuoteObviously higher level characters have more access to magical healing so it rarely comes up, but it always seemed odd that a 10th level fighter (50-100hp typically) wounded down to 1HP takes longer to heal naturally than a 1st level thief wounded down to 1HP (typically 3-6hp).

I forget the details of how that was managed, but Stamina was recovered considerably faster than Body.

QuoteEdit to add: Actually "real" HP are really only 1-4 assuming the idea behind different die types per class represents ability to avoid real damage with the least martial types rolling a d4, and greater fighting ability / toughness escalates through d6, d8 up to fighters with their d10. If this is the case then in theory even a 1st level fighter with max HP is something like 4 HP actual body, and 6 HP "stamina".

Fighters (at that time) had D8 for hit points not D10 so necessarily our numbers were a bit different. And some DMs allowed first level characters to start with max hit points on their first die. Some didn't.

Quote from: estar;1002077I design for 12th with a double check out to 16th to 18th levels. (Mage and Archmage). Since running S&W as my main system since 2008, the highest level PC I had in a campaign was 9th level. However taking 12th into account will cover the high level campaign that will come eventually one day. Beyond 12th I don't add any class details just improvement to the base abilities like spells, hits points and to hit bonus with 18th being the cut off as far as my interest goes.

Yeah 12-lvls is rock solid. I go with 10 simply because... but 12 is certainly in the sweet-spot still. Easily representative of entering into the Epic Zone.

Quote from: estar;1002077Yet making 18th level works out for me as it accounts for the few legendary NPCs I have in the setting like Whitefire in Viridistan and Lewellyn the Blue in the City State of the Invincible Overlord.

Sure - at 18th lvl you should be legendary and challenging the Gods. But I don't think that is well represented mechanically in regular D&D as presented from 3.x to 5e. There are mechanical tweaks that need to occur for it to be solidly playable , but I don't think it should be assumed.

Quote from: cranebump;1002331STATS Just four: STR, DEX, MIND, PRESENCE. 2d6+4 down the line to start. When you level, roll 4d6 twice. If the result exceeds a stat, raise it. Max=18.

SKILLS Black Hack style, as in "You have advantage when...(YHAW)" No set skill list. Things that pass for such are listed in the "YHAW" section

CORE MECHANICd20+full stat vs. a DC (base is 20+mods for difficulty). Player facing rolls (roll for attack and defense).zes

CLASSES Race as Class. Each class has a "Class Dice," which serves as HP/Dmg dice. Each class has special abilities (some of which may scale by level). No Clerics, but Clerical magic is on the list, and traditional clerical abilities (turning undead) are spells.

SPELLS Mana Pool or Exhaustion Threshold, with increasing consequences if you attempt to push the limits. Prefer old school spells, or something akin to Freebooters on the Frontier, where you roll a spell name, then you determine its usage (can pick from a menu of options for the mechanical effects). Prefer a single pool of magical spells, whatever the case, which lesser access for classes that are not Wizards/Mages. Your class level IS your spell level.

LEVELS Max Level is 9. XP/needed=reset to 0 each level; target for next level is Next Level x 2. Get XP's based on answers from a list of Q's (ex: "Did we overcome a notable adversary?" "Did we loot any treasure?" etc.). Roll 2 "Class Dice" when leveling, add together.

MONSTERS Old school monsters.

I could get behind this as a core. Everything else I'd want as an option could easily be done outside this core. Solid.

Quote from: cranebump;1002331CLASSES Race as Class. Each class has a "Class Dice," which serves as HP/Dmg dice. Each class has special abilities (some of which may scale by level). No Clerics, but Clerical magic is on the list, and traditional clerical abilities (turning undead) are spells.
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I have issues with class based damage dice.  It makes anything classified as two handed weapons mean nothing.  Dual Wielding stops being a thing, as well.  Unless there's special 'effects' for two handed weapons, one weapon and shield (usually that's extra AC) or two one handed weapons.

Quote from: cranebump;1002331STATS Just four: STR, DEX, MIND, PRESENCE. 2d6+4 down the line to start. When you level, roll 4d6 twice. If the result exceeds a stat, raise it. Max=18.

Like the four stats, but I like splitting them in two even better: Str/Con, Dex/Ref, Int/Perc, Pres/Wil.  I don't get why you toll twice when you level up... ?

Quote from: cranebump;1002331SKILLS Black Hack style, as in "You have advantage when...(YHAW)" No set skill list. Things that pass for such are listed in the "YHAW" section

I like skill lists, so this doesn't do much for me. I'd rather use Advantage as advantage (you have the high ground, you're flanking, etc.)

Quote from: cranebump;1002331CORE MECHANICd20+full stat vs. a DC (base is 20+mods for difficulty). Player facing rolls (roll for attack and defense).zes

Good.

Quote from: cranebump;1002331CLASSES Race as Class. Each class has a "Class Dice," which serves as HP/Dmg dice. Each class has special abilities (some of which may scale by level). No Clerics, but Clerical magic is on the list, and traditional clerical abilities (turning undead) are spells.

Race as class I get, but what is a Class Die? Do all fighters do dX and all mages dY? Regardless of weapon and Str?

Quote from: cranebump;1002331SPELLS Mana Pool or Exhaustion Threshold, with increasing consequences if you attempt to push the limits. Prefer old school spells, or something akin to Freebooters on the Frontier, where you roll a spell name, then you determine its usage (can pick from a menu of options for the mechanical effects). Prefer a single pool of magical spells, whatever the case, which lesser access for classes that are not Wizards/Mages. Your class level IS your spell level.

I like both mana pools and "burning health" (spells cost HP, or do non-lethal damage.) The choice is a major one, though. Mana pools are necessary for Jedi-type characters who can both fight and cast. I prefer burning health, which keeps mages out of combat. Class level as spell level? It will work. But I'd make spells skills.  

Quote from: cranebump;1002331LEVELS Max Level is 9. XP/needed=reset to 0 each level; target for next level is Next Level x 2. Get XP's based on answers from a list of Q's (ex: "Did we overcome a notable adversary?" "Did we loot any treasure?" etc.). Roll 2 "Class Dice" when leveling, add together.

That's a cool idea.

Quote from: cranebump;1002331MONSTERS Old school monsters.

Your system reminds me of Microlite 81. Which is a good thing.

I assume rolling twice when you level up is to give you a better chance of success, or is there some other reason I didn't comprehend?

Quote from: Dumarest;1003070I assume rolling twice when you level up is to give you a better chance of success, or is there some other reason I didn't comprehend?

That's what I thought as well. But it seems overly-generous, since you're already rolling 4d6 (and I assume) dropping the lowest?
I think I'd go either 3d6 twice, take best-- or 4d6 once, drop lowest.