TheRPGSite

I fled from the Gamespotted 4E orgy that is ENworld in search of greener pastures, and signed up to theRPGsite and RPG Haven on the same day.

And now this (http://www.therpghaven.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=216).

Does this site really need to steal thread topics without attribution?

I'm going to be generous and move this to the Help Desk - i guess you could argue it is about board policy.

It ain't about RPGs though.

The RPG Haven thread puzzles me. After four pages, no one has suggested that people might not have the time or desire to check a lot of forums. That's a situation where it makes perfect sense to start a similar thread elsewhere.

That said, it also makes sense to link to the original source, and I consider it basic netiquette and courtesy. Accusing someone of plagiarism because he failed to do so is too much, though.

Quote from: JongWK;301852The RPG Haven thread puzzles me. After four pages, no one has suggested that people might not have the time or desire to check a lot of forums.

Yeah, I picked that up, too.

Quote from: JongWK;301852That said, it also makes sense to link to the original source, and I consider it basic netiquette and courtesy. Accusing someone of plagiarism because he failed to do so is too much, though.

I agree with the courtesy point, but this isn't some random teenage poster we're talking about; it's someone who runs an entire website and pubilshes game systems and extensive op-eds about the roleplaying industry.

When someone takes an idea they know is not their own and pubilshes it without attribution, that's plagiarism.

I also want to try and forestall a potential shitstorm by saying how impressed I am by this forum, where ideas can be exchanged without fear or favour.  That's why I'm taking the liberty of criticising the site's owner.  Fuck knows I can't do it elsewhere.  Or say "fuck", for that matter.

Well, let's review: A group of people with a huge grudge on their shoulders start a site dedicated to bring me (and this site) down. They spend a great deal of their time on that site griping about me personally, dedicating entire threads to it, and make clear that their goal is to come on here and poach members, to try to draw them away and consequently wipe out this site, and make no effort to hide their policies of parasitically using this site for their recruitment purposes; they also make a thread about what their site is about, and come to the essential conclusion that its theRPGsite without the Pundit, making clear that what they really want is for this site to go away. They cheer if this site does badly, and act frustrated if its doing well despite their efforts (it is, by the way).

And then they have the gall to get all upset because I'm doing what needs to be done to make sure their site can never be about anything BUT "theRPGsite without the Pundit"?

FUCK THEM.
FUCK THEM WITH A SPOON.

Their real goal is so clear if you read their threads in the "forum" section; theirs is a website created out of spite. And there's nothing wrong with that; I suppose. But for them to later start whining like little bitches when fight back is just pathetic, and to accuse me of being a thief when they're trying to steal away the membership and success of this site is just pathetic scumbag hypocrisy.

So there you have it hairfoot; I would never try to tell anyone not to go join whatever site they want, but the RPG Haven is and will always be nothing but a slower, lamer, RPGsite-clone without theRPGpundit, if that's really enough for it to be an advantage to you, go for it.  

But don't go for the interesting threads; you'll find all their best ones here.

And you're right, I should give credit where credit is due: I'm glad to guys like Hinterwelt, James Skatch, and WalkerP for their ongoing contributions to this forum. Even Droog, who here never posts more than a single biting line or two per post, but there chooses to post whole long (and content-filled) entries; showing what were his true colours here from the start.  Thanks, guys, for giving me more and more material. Keep it up over there in your little corner of nothing that will never reach the success of this site, and has thus far not noticeably affected its well-being in any meaningful way (other than by increasing it with a thread or two). Suck on it, bitches.

RPGPundit

Well, let's review: A group of people with a huge grudge on their shoulders start a site dedicated to bring me (and this site) down. They spend a great deal of their time on that site griping about me personally, dedicating entire threads to it, and make clear that their goal is to come on here and poach members, to try to draw them away and consequently wipe out this site, and make no effort to hide their policies of parasitically using this site for their recruitment purposes; they also make a thread about what their site is about, and come to the essential conclusion that its theRPGsite without the Pundit, making clear that what they really want is for this site to go away. They cheer if this site does badly, and act frustrated if its doing well despite their efforts (it is, by the way).

And then they have the gall to get all upset because I'm doing what needs to be done to make sure their site can never be about anything BUT "theRPGsite without the Pundit"?

FUCK THEM.
FUCK THEM WITH A SPOON.

Their real goal is so clear if you read their threads in the "forum" section; theirs is a website created out of spite. And there's nothing wrong with that; I suppose. But for them to later start whining like little bitches when fight back is just pathetic, and to accuse me of being a thief when they're trying to steal away the membership and success of this site is just pathetic scumbag hypocrisy.

So there you have it hairfoot; I would never try to tell anyone not to go join whatever site they want, but the RPG Haven is and will always be nothing but a slower, lamer, RPGsite-clone without theRPGpundit, if that's really enough for it to be an advantage to you, go for it.  

But don't go for the interesting threads; you'll find all their best ones here.

And you're right, I should give credit where credit is due: I'm glad to guys like Hinterwelt, James Skatch, and WalkerP for their ongoing contributions to this forum. Even Droog, who here never posts more than a single biting line or two per post, but there chooses to post whole long (and content-filled) entries; showing what were his true colours here from the start.  Thanks, guys, for giving me more and more material. Keep it up over there in your little corner of nothing that will never reach the success of this site, and has thus far not noticeably affected its well-being in any meaningful way (other than by increasing it with a thread or two). Suck on it, bitches.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Hairfoot;301856When someone takes an idea they know is not their own and pubilshes it without attribution, that's plagiarism.

And what it is when a group of people come together with the sole intended goal of destroying another website?

QuoteI also want to try and forestall a potential shitstorm by saying how impressed I am by this forum, where ideas can be exchanged without fear or favour.  That's why I'm taking the liberty of criticising the site's owner.  Fuck knows I can't do it elsewhere.  Or say "fuck", for that matter.

Because you're new, I'll assume that maybe you don't know about the prior history of the people who founded that other site. They are all Swine who hate me personally and have motivations for trying to destroy this site out of spite.

RPGPundit

(also, for the record, I've never "cut & paste" any thread from anywhere without saying so; so accusations of plagiarism are nonsense)

Egads. That's all I have to say. Are people really that fucking pathetic, Pundit?
 
Did they originate the swine flu?

Quote from: RPGPundit;301865Because you're new, I'll assume that maybe you don't know about the prior history of the people who founded that other site. They are all Swine who hate me personally and have motivations for trying to destroy this site out of spite.

Indeed I don't, but that does sound a bit overwrought and conspiratorial.

Can you link me to examples of where "they've" "[spent] a great deal of their time on that site griping about me personally, dedicating entire threads to it, and make clear that their goal is to come on here and poach members"?

The posters there seem genuinely surprised that thread topics from RPG Haven appear here after they've been posted there.  That doesn't sound like I'll "find all their best ones here" due to coincidence.

Paranoia isn't just an award-winning game from WEG, is it?

Quote from: Hairfoot;301869Indeed I don't, but that does sound a bit overwrought and conspiratorial.

Can you link me to examples of where "they've" "[spent] a great deal of their time on that site griping about me personally, dedicating entire threads to it, and make clear that their goal is to come on here and poach members"?

The posters there seem genuinely surprised that thread topics from RPG Haven appear here after they've been posted there.  That doesn't sound like I'll "find all their best ones here" due to coincidence.

 It's not overwrought. Pundit's posts are generally followed about by his fanboys  quite frequently. These douchenozzles got their panties knotted up when Pundit spurned their advances, so they haunt his every post, making their snide remarks whenever, overrating their own importance, and generally making any thread started by Pundit to end up becoming a toxic waste dump.

HAHAHAHAHA!  Oh man, thanks for that post Pundit, that was some of the funniest shit that I've read all morning.

I should take some heat for the content of that particular thread on The RPG Haven -- I was fanning the notion that you're a pouty copy-cat, Pundy.  Of course, you've done that from the start of this site, cribbing threads from RPG.net and EN World, sites you essentially got pushed out of.  And I found it both funny and sad that you started doing it to a site that may not have ever gotten the critical momentum it needed if you hadn't been such a virulent douchebag.  Still, I should have listened to my own advice and not encouraged cross-forum drama, but I didn't.  Mea culpa.

But, while I'm here, I should point out that I never accused you of "cut-n-paste".  I accused you of copying topics and hypothesised (and here I'm giving you credit for being particularly clever, though I'm really reaching, both in subject matter and for crediting you for being clever) that you're mimicking search engine keywords.  And, ever one to get off another salvo, I still think that you fluff this site with garbage threads when things get slow.

So, all in all, I imagine you might really be enjoying all this.  Shine on you crazy diamond.*

!i!

(*I trust you'll appreciate this reference.)

It's just the same as this board was for a year or two - people not happy with a board starting their own, except here it was RPGnet.

We had a few cross-board tear ups with RPGnet before we got done. This is just another splintering. Teething pains will ease up - if people will grow up either side of the divide.

Quote from: One Horse Town;301887We had a few cross-board tear ups with RPGnet before we got done. This is just another splintering. Teething pains will ease up - if people will grow up either side of the divide.

I made a grand total of three posts on RPgnet before the teenage fanclub descended like a pack of pimply piranhas who lost their virginity to 4E.

I approve of any "fuck you" they get.

Quote from: Hairfoot;301893I made a grand total of three posts on RPgnet before the teenage fanclub descended like a pack of pimply piranhas who lost their virginity to 4E.

I approve of any "fuck you" they get.

 Well, to give em a real "fuck you", you should post about how much a piece of trash you think Exalted is. You think the 4E fanboys suck, you'll have some real fun with the Exalted goons.

Quote from: Hairfoot;301869Indeed I don't, but that does sound a bit overwrought and conspiratorial.

Can you link me to examples of where "they've" "[spent] a great deal of their time on that site griping about me personally, dedicating entire threads to it, and make clear that their goal is to come on here and poach members"?

The posters there seem genuinely surprised that thread topics from RPG Haven appear here after they've been posted there.  That doesn't sound like I'll "find all their best ones here" due to coincidence.

Look at their threads on "The Forum" section of their site, where they talk with glee about who they're going to recruit, and how they want this place to be empty. Look at some other threads there where they talk about how much they hate me, and how they essentially want their site to be like this site but without me running it.

Good luck with that, by the way. They failed to get that you can't divorce one from the other. This site has succeeded because of me, not in spite of me.

RPGPundit

Ah, I just registered there with the handle "swinedecapitation". Seems free speech is also off-topic there, as it seem my account had been deleted.

Quote from: One Horse Town;301887It's just the same as this board was for a year or two - people not happy with a board starting their own, except here it was RPGnet.

We had a few cross-board tear ups with RPGnet before we got done. This is just another splintering. Teething pains will ease up - if people will grow up either side of the divide.

I agree.

For the record though, the RPGHaven was not set up "to spite" the rpgsite. It was set up as a site where you can discuss RPGs. Not RPGs Jim or I approve of. Not "real" rpgs. Role-playing games. A general game site without the moderation of RPG.Net. If anything, and I would not say this even, that would make us "in spite of" RPG.Net.

As to "poaching" his members...I do not have any words for that short of feel free to come over to the Haven. I, nor Jim, will claim you as serfs dedicated to "our" site. Heck, I even invited Cessna and listened to his advice on organizing the site.

For some insight into what I was really looking to do, I was going for the general aspects of RPG.Net with the feel of Squirrel Nutkinland with a dash of the serious down to business threads of EnWorld.

So, Dan, hopefully we will all grow up a bit.

Quote from: shalvayez;301905Ah, I just registered there with the handle "swinedecapitation". Seems free speech is also off-topic there, as it seem my account had been deleted.

You should have received a confirmation email. I will assume you did not or did not click on the confirmation part. Your account is now active and approved.

*sigh*

Can't we all just get along?

Quote from: HinterWelt;301907I agree.

Good.

QuoteAs to "poaching" his members...I do not have any words for that short of feel free to come over to the Haven. I, nor Jim, will claim you as serfs dedicated to "our" site. Heck, I even invited Cessna and listened to his advice on organizing the site.

Dunno. It can be seen that way - especially if that is your way of looking at things. For example, it was suggested that 'sensible' (the less charitable could read that as 'people i like') people be contacted. Hell, i suggested it myself in a moment when i was angry at Pundit for being hung out to dry over the CavScout incident. I also suggested that if you insist on being a reaction to here, it would come back to haunt you. It has become more clear to me over the weeks that is essentially what the RPGhaven is at this moment in time (no reason why it can't change), many comments have suggested this over multiple threads. I agree with Pundit on that score - and also have no beef with folk wanting to do it and actually doing it. It's a free fucking country and should make no difference to anyone what folk chose to do.

Sadly, i no longer think that the haven is for me. I can do without the drama.

QuoteSo, Dan, hopefully we will all grow up a bit.

See, i'm so internet battle-weary that this just came across as needlessly passive-agressive. I already stated this and you appel my name to it as though i didn't include myself in my original statement.

I'm weary of the internet in general, so maybe i'm just jaded...

Quote from: Benoist;301909*sigh*

Can't we all just get along?

I can. I get along fine here, there, and RPGNet too. I like Pundit, and think he's a crackerjack game designer, but the anti-Pundit thing is only on a few threads which I can easily avoid. Most of the site is good, and I've missed some of the people who are there and not here any more. I expect as the Haven matures it will find it's own way, just like this place did.

-clash

Well, I chased you away then OHT - by reacting to the reaction which was based on a faulty assumption - as so many are.

You see, I just went back and read through every one of those threads - the two major ones being the Recruitment (http://www.therpghaven.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=17) thread and the Cool Message Boards (http://www.therpghaven.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=216) thread.

You'll note, that there were many attempts to clarify that The RPG Haven (http://www.therpghaven.com/index.php) was not simply a reaction to this place. In fact, I went so far as to admit that the push out of the nest, as it were, was growing tired of these very shenanigans - so that I was completely honest . But I also pointed out how I had been considering this for the d20 Haven for a long time. There's no "poaching" bull, except that everyone there pointed out who would be good to invite.

The only time it became an issue, you'll note, is when threads that were obviously sourced over there started showing up here - sometimes only a few minutes later! - without any link back. Some may call that common courtesy. I'm not so..forgiving - as someone illustrated to me by hearkening back to an old blog entry by Pundy himself where he outlines this very tactic. If there had been a link back - none of this goes on. But, you see, that's exactly what he wanted. He feels threatened.

So, you see, The RPG Haven (http://www.therpghaven.com/index.php) was not created in spite of or as a reaction to this place in the way the Pundy tries to imply. Nobody who started the RPG Haven wants to see this place empty. Some disenchanted members here have decided to move on and The RPG Haven was a choice - but you'll note why those people moved on and you'll see it's on Pundy, not us.

Now, I've got no problem if you don't want to post at The RPG Haven (http://www.therpghaven.com/index.php). I'll miss your input - always loved your stuff. But don't miss your mark when you point the finger, old chum.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;301873Paranoia isn't just an award-winning game from WEG, is it?

Let's see what about 5 mins of reviewing that site brings up:

Exhibit A: The entire thread titled "cool message boards" is not in fact about cool message boards, but a long rant about me and this site.

"Pundy's rather put out that someone created a forum that caters to essentially the same interests as his" -Ian Absentia

"PM the people who are not raving asshats, who also have the most interesting replies to the clone threads, with a invite to these boards" -Mark

In the "moderator policy site", Hinterwelt comments how he's recruiting Andy from Storygames and Cessna from RPG.net because he wants "advice" from "successful sites", and then talks about "looking at moderator policy" from the "Lens of the pundit" as an example of a failure. Needless to say, I was never invited to this site; which kind of destroys your whole argument of this not Being About Me, as it were.

Jim Skatch, as usual, threatening to use my "real" name and assholes like Droog talking about posting photographs of me. No, that's not aggressive behaviour of near-stalker proportions, is it Doc? You think that sort of bullshit is acceptable, or don't you? I didn't see you saying that they were crossing a fucking line.

Hinterwelt brags about how: "Pundit bitching about your site only makes it more visible"; he gets his wish, just this once.

Exhibit B: The ENTIRE Recruitment thread, where they basically admit that they're poaching this site to try to pluck out its "best" members.  And then they get pissed off that I'm copying some of their threads?

They talk about recruiting Zach because he's a mod, and WalkerP mentions how if they "Get Rotwang and jrients and it's game over, baby."

James Skach takes pride in the fact that the site is a place where "steadier hand operates the helm." and that "for me it has always been about" that. (the whole moderation forum is hilarious; half the people who would NEVER let a mod decision by me go without making vast paeans to "free speech" on here are there telling James and Hinterwelt that they should just be autocrats and pointing to the success of Andy's totalitarian moderation; apparently "free speech" only matters when you hate the guy making the calls... who happens to be the one guy who actually honestly gives a damn about free speech).

Finally, in the thread where they discuss the plan to create the Haven, back in the thread about what to make the site about, consonant dude says "opinion that theRPGsite is not a general roleplaying forum, that the administration over there doesn't even care about poll results or what the community wants."
In that same thread, balbinus states: "whether it is worth doing so or better just to lobby for changes at therpgsite where stuff is unsatisfactory. Pundy's change to putting Forgy games into Other Games is a recognition that his policy was unpopular, and so shows that lobbying can have an impact. It could be easier to improve the rpgsite than to set up a new and rival forum, which inevitably would be competing for posters. I don't presently have a firm view on the matter."
However, Hintewelt directly responds to this with a negative, stating that he wants to start up the Haven because he has been "Met with derision" on theRPGsite, and that the "base problem" of theRPGsite doesn't have to do with the organization of the forums (ie. his problem is with me). Hinterwelt also talks about how on this site "attacking the pundit is attacking freedom of speech".
In that thread, Hinterwelt and Skach make some lip-service to their site "not being in reaction to anything", but Skach in the same breath says "I'm tired of certain places and people", and its pretty clear from that very first thread that the whole raison d'etre of the Haven was to create RPGsite-without-the-Pundit.
So please, get real, Doc. You know as well as I do what many of those guys (including the founders) are doing posting those threads over there instead of over here.
They are a reactionary site, whether they want to admit it in so many words or not, and they've been way more fucking open about it than most.

And there's nothing wrong with that. People want to try to re-create this site without me, that's fine. But they shouldn't go to do that, and then make threads about poaching members from here, and then start to cry and whine when I fight back.

RPGPundit

Quote from: shalvayez;301905Ah, I just registered there with the handle "swinedecapitation". Seems free speech is also off-topic there, as it seem my account had been deleted.

They talked about that over there. Apparently Free Speech is only something that guys like Walker need to defend to their last fucking breath if its me who's the moderator. Over there, they can feel free to be totalitarian, because they don't really give a fuck about free speech. It turns out that it was always about just trying to bitch about my moderation all along.

RPGPundit

People seem to care what I think, so I'll tell you what I think about this.  Free speech and all of that.

I think having two boards to read is good for me.  The more, the merrier.

I think that whether or not The Haven was set up as a 'reaction' to The Site doesn't matter.  If it was (which I don't believe), whatever.  If not, whatever.

I think that The RPG Pundit is fucking nuts.  Seriously.  Like, Howard Hughes-grade jacked-up in the brains Kleenex-boxes-on-the-feet wahoo.  He's paranoid, he's boastful, he's a fucking sideshow.  Oh, that reminds me:

I think The RPG Pundit isn't a real guy.  I think he's an act; a role.  An experiment, maybe one taken so far as to...well...be annoying, frankly.  I mean, stand for what you stand and say your piece, but hammering, hammering, hammering...?  Ugh.

I think that The Pundit's act of transplanting thread topics, whatever its true or claimed intent, came across as laughable, childish and pathetic.  I didn't say much about it (very little, in fact) because I thought that things would right themselves without me.  It didn't hurt or offend me, my family or my friends, so I let it go.  

I think that this whole hobby is already pretty goofy-assed to begin with, without these inter-forum brouhahas and petty arguments and "Swine Wars" and other such bullshit.  Don't get me wrong -- I love this goofy-assed hobby like you wouldn't motherfucking believe, but I love it because it is so gleefully goofy-assed.  Not 'silly' or 'laughable' or 'lesser' to anything.  Look, we're playing pretend.  It's fun and it's social and it's something to share and enjoy and it's harmless and it's inspirational and it's educational and it's a pure goddamn delight.  This is a swell hobby to have and enjoy, my friend.  Still and all -- what's that quote about "My way of pretending to be a gay-ass elf", again?  Who said that?  I keep forgetting who said that.  Somebody tell me who said that so I can give him or her a medal.

I think the new Burger King Star Trek glasses are cool, and I already drank out of my Uhura one.  Hell, I even drank Pepsi out of it, and I really prefer Coke for some damn reason.

I think that I am done expressing my thoughts on this.

Quote from: HinterWelt;301907I agree.

For the record though, the RPGHaven was not set up "to spite" the rpgsite. It was set up as a site where you can discuss RPGs. Not RPGs Jim or I approve of. Not "real" rpgs. Role-playing games. A general game site without the moderation of RPG.Net. If anything, and I would not say this even, that would make us "in spite of" RPG.Net.

Bullshit. You were kind enough to keep up your original thread discussing the start of the Haven, and its pretty fucking clear that despite your lip-service about how "this is not a reaction site", you were talking in REACTIVE terms about theRPGsite from DAY FUCKING ONE.

Shit, you can't help yourself. In your paragraph above, even as you claim its not about reaction, your post is all about how much you hate me. When you say "real" RPGs, you give yourself away there, buddy...

RPGPundit

Quote from: James J Skach;301913Well, I chased you away then OHT - by reacting to the reaction which was based on a faulty assumption - as so many are.

You see, I just went back and read through every one of those threads - the two major ones being the Recruitment (http://www.therpghaven.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=17) thread and the Cool Message Boards (http://www.therpghaven.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=216) thread.

You'll note, that there were many attempts to clarify that The RPG Haven (http://www.therpghaven.com/index.php) was not simply a reaction to this place. In fact, I went so far as to admit that the push out of the nest, as it were, was growing tired of these very shenanigans - so that I was completely honest . But I also pointed out how I had been considering this for the d20 Haven for a long time. There's no "poaching" bull, except that everyone there pointed out who would be good to invite.

The only time it became an issue, you'll note, is when threads that were obviously sourced over there started showing up here - sometimes only a few minutes later! - without any link back. Some may call that common courtesy. I'm not so..forgiving - as someone illustrated to me by hearkening back to an old blog entry by Pundy himself where he outlines this very tactic. If there had been a link back - none of this goes on. But, you see, that's exactly what he wanted. He feels threatened.

So, you see, The RPG Haven (http://www.therpghaven.com/index.php) was not created in spite of or as a reaction to this place in the way the Pundy tries to imply. Nobody who started the RPG Haven wants to see this place empty. Some disenchanted members here have decided to move on and The RPG Haven was a choice - but you'll note why those people moved on and you'll see it's on Pundy, not us.

Now, I've got no problem if you don't want to post at The RPG Haven (http://www.therpghaven.com/index.php). I'll miss your input - always loved your stuff. But don't miss your mark when you point the finger, old chum.

I'm not going to argue with you, Jim. You're good people. Let's agree to disagree.

Hopefully, there'll come a time when this isn't an issue and we'll all hold hands and sing around the campfire.

Oh, one more thing in the light of what OHT just said:

Issue?  Why make it an issue?  Fuck issues, man, I wanna see what folks hafta say about gaming and stuff and share some stuff about gaming and stuff when I have something good or interesting to share.

Only issues I care about are magazines.  

EDIT TO CLARIFY: This wasn't aimed at OHT, it's aimed at the whole notion of making a big deal out of this shit.

You know I mean it when I start the potty-talk!

Quote from: James J Skach;301913You see, I just went back and read through every one of those threads - the two major ones being the Recruitment (http://www.therpghaven.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=17) thread and the Cool Message Boards (http://www.therpghaven.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=216) thread.

You'll note, that there were many attempts to clarify that The RPG Haven (http://www.therpghaven.com/index.php) was not simply a reaction to this place.

Yes, you guys say that over and over and over again. The lady doth protest too much. You can say it till you're blue in the face but when even your earliest threads are essentially talking about how you want your site to fix things you disliked about theRPGsite (mainly, that I was in charge of it), it really doesn't matter how many times you try to claim you're not reacting.

QuoteThe only time it became an issue, you'll note, is when threads that were obviously sourced over there started showing up here

Bullshit. As my reply to the Doc points out, you guys were all about reacting from day fucking ONE.

QuoteBut, you see, that's exactly what he wanted. He feels threatened.

Threatened? No. This is pest control. I'm playing you like a fucking violin, Skach.

QuoteSo, you see, The RPG Haven (http://www.therpghaven.com/index.php) was not created in spite of or as a reaction to this place in the way the Pundy tries to imply.

Bullshit.

QuoteNobody who started the RPG Haven wants to see this place empty. Some disenchanted members here have decided to move on and The RPG Haven was a choice - but you'll note why those people moved on and you'll see it's on Pundy, not us.

Again, bullshit. You want to have theRPGsite, but without me. Note the "recruitment" thread where you guys gleefully celebrate when you imagine that this place is getting empty or that I'm "getting desperate".

No, you guys made this a reaction-site, and that's what I'm leaving you with. And you're becoming more that way every single day.

Can you hear that violin yet, Jimmy boy?

RPGPundit

Quote from: One Horse Town;301910Dunno. It can be seen that way - especially if that is your way of looking at things. For example, it was suggested that 'sensible' (the less charitable could read that as 'people i like') people be contacted.

I cannot speak for other people but for myself, I mean avoiding, say, Cavscout or Jackalope or pock known trolls. So, if you think those guys are "sensible" then we hold different definitions.  

Also, to be clear, this is all in the contacted arena. There is no barrier to registering (other than standard spam counters) so, it is not some exclusive club. The idea was to contact folks who have a similar base of wanting to discuss games with less drama. I contacted folks on here, RPG.Net and Enworld, the three boards I most frequent.

Quote from: One Horse Town;301910Hell, i suggested it myself in a moment when i was angry at Pundit for being hung out to dry over the CavScout incident. I also suggested that if you insist on being a reaction to here, it would come back to haunt you.

As have I. However, some folks are pissed and that comes through. I still maintain, we are not a reaction to this place. However, this is not to say what other members' agenda is. As one of the founders, mine is just to have a place to discuss RPGs in general. I find I cannot do that here. This is the same thing that happened with RPG.Net. I found I could not (for different reasons) post about the games I wanted in the manner I wished there and so I went to Squirrelnutkinland. So, I guess if you really want to stretch it you could say my path wandered through this site for a while.

Quote from: One Horse Town;301910It has become more clear to me over the weeks that is essentially what the RPGhaven is at this moment in time (no reason why it can't change), many comments have suggested this over multiple threads. I agree with Pundit on that score - and also have no beef with folk wanting to do it and actually doing it. It's a free fucking country and should make no difference to anyone what folk chose to do.

Actually, I would say, yes, a lot of the membership is interested in a place where you can talk about any RPG. And yes, a lot of them see it as a reaction to this site. However, the site was not founded as a reaction to this site. And as you said, I imagine, should we be successful, the site will evolve and people will leave hard feelings behind. Heck, I still post here from time to time and expect to continue to do so in the future.

Quote from: One Horse Town;301910Sadly, i no longer think that the haven is for me. I can do without the drama.

Well, sorry to hear that Dan. I do not see the drama you do on the Haven. Apparently, one man's drama is another man's reasoned debate.

Quote from: One Horse Town;301910See, i'm so internet battle-weary that this just came across as needlessly passive-agressive. I already stated this and you appel my name to it as though i didn't include myself in my original statement.

And that is sad Dan. I was merely agreeing with you. Consider why you are internet battle weary. Consider where yu fight you most fervent and fruitless battles.

Quote from: One Horse Town;301910I'm weary of the internet in general, so maybe i'm just jaded...

Take a break man. Sometimes it helps.

I do apologize if you took may agreement with your very important point to be sarcasm or a jibe. I assure you it was not intended as such, merely as an outstretched hand to a poster a respect and agree with.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;301917People seem to care what I think, so I'll tell you what I think about this.  Free speech and all of that.

I think having two boards to read is good for me.  The more, the merrier.

I think that whether or not The Haven was set up as a 'reaction' to The Site doesn't matter.  If it was (which I don't believe), whatever.  If not, whatever.

I think that The RPG Pundit is fucking nuts.  Seriously.  Like, Howard Hughes-grade jacked-up in the brains Kleenex-boxes-on-the-feet wahoo.  He's paranoid, he's boastful, he's a fucking sideshow.  Oh, that reminds me:

I think The RPG Pundit isn't a real guy.  I think he's an act; a role.  An experiment, maybe one taken so far as to...well...be annoying, frankly.  I mean, stand for what you stand and say your piece, but hammering, hammering, hammering...?  Ugh.

I think that The Pundit's act of transplanting thread topics, whatever its true or claimed intent, came across as laughable, childish and pathetic.  I didn't say much about it (very little, in fact) because I thought that things would right themselves without me.  It didn't hurt or offend me, my family or my friends, so I let it go.  

I think that this whole hobby is already pretty goofy-assed to begin with, without these inter-forum brouhahas and petty arguments and "Swine Wars" and other such bullshit.  Don't get me wrong -- I love this goofy-assed hobby like you wouldn't motherfucking believe, but I love it because it is so gleefully goofy-assed.  Not 'silly' or 'laughable' or 'lesser' to anything.  Look, we're playing pretend.  It's fun and it's social and it's something to share and enjoy and it's harmless and it's inspirational and it's educational and it's a pure goddamn delight.  This is a swell hobby to have and enjoy, my friend.  Still and all -- what's that quote about "My way of pretending to be a gay-ass elf", again?  Who said that?  I keep forgetting who said that.  Somebody tell me who said that so I can give him or her a medal.

I think the new Burger King Star Trek glasses are cool, and I already drank out of my Uhura one.  Hell, I even drank Pepsi out of it, and I really prefer Coke for some damn reason.

I think that I am done expressing my thoughts on this.

Really? That's it? No groovy-hipster-Rotwang-above-it-all thoughts about whether its cool or not in the Doc-o-meter for one of the two founders of the other site in question to be threatening to violate my privacy on his site?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;301921Yes, you guys say that over and over and over again. The lady doth protest too much. You can say it till you're blue in the face but when even your earliest threads are essentially talking about how you want your site to fix things you disliked about theRPGsite (mainly, that I was in charge of it), it really doesn't matter how many times you try to claim you're not reacting.

Essentially, you've built an argument in your head that means anything we say or do is a reaction to you. Here's a hint: the world doesn't revolve around you. Extra Credit: Not even the RPG world revolves around you. Extra Extra Credit: Not even the world of Forums about the World of RPG's revolves around you.

No, The RPG Haven (http://www.therpghaven.com/index.php) is building up nicely to be exactly what we wanted. A place to discuss RPG's. That's it, nothing more, nothing less. That part of the reason we built The RPG Haven (http://www.therpghaven.com/index.php) was that we couldn't find that anywhere else that satisfied us, and that we both posted here, does not mean it's a reaction to you. Hell, for me, it was as much of a reaction to how poorly I did with d20 Haven as anything else. I say that both at The RPG Haven and at d20 Haven.

But that just gets in the way of your paranoid fantasies.

Oh - and btw - I didn't threaten to reveal your name. I chastised others for making oblique references to it. Sure, I did it in a way that makes fun of you, but that's just me making fun of you.

Quote from: RPGPundit;301921Can you hear that violin yet, Jimmy boy?

Yeah, can you do Danny Boy? I like that song...

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;301920Oh, one more thing in the light of what OHT just said:

Issue?  Why make it an issue?  Fuck issues, man, I wanna see what folks hafta say about gaming and stuff and share some stuff about gaming and stuff when I have something good or interesting to share.

Only issues I care about are magazines.  

EDIT TO CLARIFY: This wasn't aimed at OHT, it's aimed at the whole notion of making a big deal out of this shit.

You know I mean it when I start the potty-talk!

It's an issue to me when there are cross-forum dramas involving a site where i am a moderator.

Let me lay my cards on the table as we're all fucking doing it for the peanut gallery.

I like this place, but it drives me nuts sometimes. I try pretty hard to start interesting threads that might provoke positive contributions but it's always the negative ones that generate the interest. Seems like few folk are interested in any sort of creation that might benifit users, but love the freedom to call each other cunts.

I think Pundit is an insecure individual, however, i agree with enough of his views about gaming that he doesn't repulse or annoy me too much. His views on 'swine' do annoy me, as i've been pretty vocal in my views that i blame the authors of games that promote fucked up play rather than those who play them.

On myself. I am too active on the boards for a moderator. In recent weeks it has become obvious to me that anything i say can be construed as 'official' by people used to other moderation policies, when all i'm really doing is engaging in the same sort of shit-talking i did when i was not a mod. I can be short-tempered, cranky and petty and too fast to type these things out. I also like to think that i can be reasonable wherever i happen to be posting and hope that my failed attempts at getting some creative thinking going on these boards have at least benifitted someone. I have twelve ideas a day that sometimes make it onto the boards and i sometimes get some good feedback - when folk aren't engaged in the argument de jour.

Clash is my hero, i wear size 9 shoes and i'm a Leo.

:p

Quote from: RPGPundit;301925Really? That's it? No groovy-hipster-Rotwang-above-it-all thoughts about whether its cool or not in the Doc-o-meter for one of the two founders of the other site in question to be threatening to violate my privacy on his site?

RPGPundit

You kill me. Dude, you've done that yourself. You're careless about it and then wonder how people might find out? You'll note, as I just said, I chastise someone else for referencing it. And while people ask for photos, I merely chastise you for being so careless if it's so damn important to you, to still have it out there...I don't provide it.

So now knowing your name means that I'm a threat to reveal it and that is somehow an issue I have to consider?

Man, if this pundit thing is an act, it's a good one. If not, you have issues...

No, not really.  

A violation of privacy would not be cool at all of course, but, frankly, I can't see why anyone cares who you really are.  I know I don't.  To me, The RPG Pundit is the username of a guy who lives in Uruguay and runs the RPG Site, who designed a game that I like pretty well, and who occasionally says crazy stuff that makes me go, "What the fuck...?!".  That's all I need to know. Oh, yeah, and the pipes and the Masons and the love for the Amber RPG.

If anyone else is worried about who you are or aren't...whatever.  I advise them not to get worked up about it.  I say leave you alone to do what you'll do.

Quote from: One Horse Town;301929It's an issue to me when there are cross-forum dramas involving a site where i am a moderator.

Yeah, I kinda didn't think about that.  I'd like to rephrase, then: I'm prepared for this to not be an issue, and just mosey over to the campfire you mentioned.  Granted I'm a mod here too, but...hell, I dunno why I still am, with as little as I do with it.

Sorry, man, no slight intended.

Quote from: flyingmice;301912I can. I get along fine here, there, and RPGNet too. I like Pundit, and think he's a crackerjack game designer, but the anti-Pundit thing is only on a few threads which I can easily avoid. Most of the site is good, and I've missed some of the people who are there and not here any more. I expect as the Haven matures it will find it's own way, just like this place did.

-clash

<---- I'm with Clash.

Quote from: RPGPundit;301914"Pundy's rather put out that someone created a forum that caters to essentially the same interests as his" -Ian Absentia

And it's totally true.  Someone asked why you were copy-catting threads, and I offered my opinion as to why.  Here's the full caption:

Quote from: Ian Absentia (on The RPG Haven)Well, in a nutshell, Pundy's rather put out that someone created a forum that caters to essentially the same interests as his, only without the bile and poison at its core. So I think he's trying to prove that there's no reason to post here if he has duplicate threads there.

If anything, I wasn't pointed enough.

And, just so you don't get away with accusing the wrong people of invading your privacy, I was the one who used your first name, and Jim chastised me for it -- gently, but his point was made.

!i!

Dude, everyone saw what you did there. "Mr.T"?

Just admit it. You hate me. Embrace that. You'll feel better. You won't have to keep living this double-discourse life of yours, and you can complete your site's conversion into being
all about fighting with me. And then I win.

Or you can ignore me, and your site can be not about anything. And then I win.

Do you see the one common factor here?

RPGPundit

Quote from: James SkachYou kill me. Dude, you've done that yourself. You're careless about it and then wonder how people might find out? You'll note, as I just said, I chastise someone else for referencing it. And while people ask for photos, I merely chastise you for being so careless if it's so damn important to you, to still have it out there...I don't provide it.

So now knowing your name means that I'm a threat to reveal it and that is somehow an issue I have to consider?

Man, if this pundit thing is an act, it's a good one. If not, you have issues...

Dude, everyone saw what you did there. "Mr.T"? But hey, extra points for being such a coward you like to say it in the safety of your own site but not here to my face.

Just admit it. You hate me. Embrace that. You'll feel better. You won't have to keep living this double-discourse life of yours, and you can complete your site's conversion into being
all about fighting with me. And then I win.

Or you can ignore me, and your site can be not about anything. Because right now, "hating the pundit" is the only thing that makes it different from theRPGsite (and let's face it, not even that is all that different, since anyone there who isn't banned here could just be talking about hating me on here). But yes, make it about nothing.  And then I win.

Do you see the one common factor here? You've already lost.

RPGPundit

Is this a thread on how to run a soap opera campaign ? Where's my butthurt ointment ?

Quote from: RPGPundit;301925Really? That's it? No groovy-hipster-Rotwang-above-it-all thoughts about whether its cool or not in the Doc-o-meter for one of the two founders of the other site in question to be threatening to violate my privacy on his site?

RPGPundit

THAT I don't care for, not at all. That is unethical. I must've missed that - like I said, I skip over that crap. Guys? Please explain this! Pundy-insults are one thing - he gets insulted here too, and he can take it - but violating a user's privacy is another order entirely! I know some things about Pundit - I'm his publisher, and I have to - but I've never breathed a word about any of it, not even to my wife. That's sacred, man! If either of you have threatened this, even jokingly, a sincere, complete, and public apology is in order, on both sites. There are no mitigating circumstances short of a government court order, and even then I'd think long and hard about it.

-clash

Edit: Posted while a slew of other posts were cascading down. It looks like it wasn't the site's founders but a member who said something. I left the above in place, though, because what I said is true for anyone willfully violating someone else's privacy, including my friend Ian. There are some screwed up people on the internet - just think of some of the whack jobs you have seen post here - and Pundit's pretty incendiary. The thought of some of those creeps getting Pundit's address... That scares me.

Quote from: RPGPundit;301939Dude, everyone saw what you did there. "Mr.T"?

My name has a "J" in it.

Quote from: HinterWelt;301922Take a break man. Sometimes it helps.

I do apologize if you took may agreement with your very important point to be sarcasm or a jibe. I assure you it was not intended as such, merely as an outstretched hand to a poster a respect and agree with.

I've been hammered over the last couple of days with all sorts of disingenuous stuff and saw it where it wasn't. No apology needed, mate.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;301945My name has a "J" in it.

So, what, you're trying to claim now that he was just spewing random consonants?
You're not willing to even concede this?!

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;301939Dude, everyone saw what you did there. "Mr.T"?

Everyone? Pundy - there are like 100 or so members of The RPG Haven (http://www.therpghaven.com/index.php). Hell, you probably exposed it more by your own repeating of it here than I ever could. I doubt your seriousness in caring about it when yuo do stupid shit like that..

Soon you'll reveal it and, I bet, blame me! It's great!

Quote from: RPGPundit;301939[Just admit it. You hate me. Embrace that. You'll feel better. You won't have to keep living this double-discourse life of yours, and you can complete your site's conversion into being
all about fighting with me. And then I win.

Dude...hate you? I don't even know you! I've offered to provide you with accommodations if you can get to GenCon - an offer that still holds AFAIAC.

I think you've gone off the deep end (wrt to this online personality and you're raging hate on); but that's a separate issue.

Quote from: RPGPundit;301939Or you can ignore me, and your site can be not about anything. And then I win.

Amazingly, people post about things that have nothing to do with you. You'd know that, because you've obviously spent quite a lot of time reading The RPG Haven (http://www.therpghaven.com/index.php) (as it evidenced by your knwoledge of the Forum threads as well as your copying of threads like the Gonzo thread (http://www.therpghaven.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=224), the IPR thread (http://www.therpghaven.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=171), any of the various Bararians of Lemur threads (http://www.therpghaven.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=77) - shall I go on?).

Tell you what, how 'bout you ignore us and see what you can come up with on your own. Or at least have the common courtesy to link back to the original thread from which you got the idea for your own.

Quote from: RPGPundit;301939Do you see the one common factor here?

Yes. Megalomania? Solipsism?

Quote from: RPGPundit;301948So, what, you're trying to claim now that he was just spewing random consonants?
You're not willing to even concede this?!

RPGPundit

Okay.

Let's assume for a moment that one of your initials is "T".  Your surname, let's say, just so the next step makes sense.  

Now someone refers to you as "Mr T".  That suggests that your last name begins with a "T".

Then, you call that out.  Now we can surmise that the revelation of the letter "T" in your surname is, in fact, correct.

This bit of knowledge, of course, means nothing.  My middle name starts with "J".  How many middle names start with "J"?  How many surnames start with "T"?

What the _______ ?

 Pundit was on the "A Team"?

- Ed C.

Jesus. There's so much crap flying around on this thread!
Where's the butthurt ointment when you need it?

Pundit, come join The RPG Haven (http://www.therpghaven.com) and stop copying threads to promote your Otto von Bismarck approach to cross-boards dramas. Then maybe we'll get somewhere.

Two boards are better than one. Let's just enjoy both and be done with the dramaqueen sniping.

Ok, let me tell you how this going to pan out. You've already crossed the rubicon.There's no going back. Whether you meant to or not (and I'm sure you did, only not in a way that it would come back to bite you in the ass like this) your site is a reactionary site. Its become the anti-pundit site.

And that's all its going to have that theRPGsite won't.

And everything you say here only goes further to advance that.
I'm so confident, I'm basically telling you how I've destroyed you, because its too late. I beat you 35 minutes ago, so to say; and the moment I knew it was already over was when you posted here.

You're done. Your site might keep going for a time, we'll see how long that dog can hunt, but in the end its a one-trick-pony.

And I'm telling you all this, because really there's fuck all you can do about it now. In fact, I'm counting on the fact that explaining all this to you is only going to lead to you unintentionally accelerating your site's demise.

Thanks for making this an extra-special birthday.

RPGPundit

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the Pundit in all his...ummm...glory.

Happy Birthday, old man. Good Luck!

Quote from: flyingmice;301944THAT I don't care for, not at all. That is unethical. I must've missed that - like I said, I skip over that crap. Guys? Please explain this! Pundy-insults are one thing - he gets insulted here too, and he can take it - but violating a user's privacy is another order entirely! I know some things about Pundit - I'm his publisher, and I have to - but I've never breathed a word about any of it, not even to my wife. That's sacred, man! If either of you have threatened this, even jokingly, a sincere, complete, and public apology is in order, on both sites. There are no mitigating circumstances short of a government court order, and even then I'd think long and hard about it.

-clash

Edit: Posted while a slew of other posts were cascading down. It looks like it wasn't the site's founders but a member who said something. I left the above in place, though, because what I said is true for anyone willfully violating someone else's privacy, including my friend Ian. There are some screwed up people on the internet - just think of some of the whack jobs you have seen post here - and Pundit's pretty incendiary. The thought of some of those creeps getting Pundit's address... That scares me.

I like Pundit, for the most part.  We've had our battles in the past, but I keep coming back here because his writing is very much along the same as mine, we take many of the same influences, namely cranky, sarcastic bastards, guys like Twain, Vonnegut, Black, Bourdain.  I love that shit.

But, this is the Internet, and the Internet is a fucked up place.  For god's sake it has 4chan in it, that should be enough to scare the willies out of anyone.

I don't use my real name on the internet.  I generally refrain from sharing too much personally identifiable information on the internet.  Even on RPGnet, after all the years there, and even meeting several of the members IRL, I think the most anyone ever learned about me there was my first name and some general area of where I lived.  

My writing style, like the Pundit's, attracts ire, that's just part of the game, but I'd rather see that ire confined to the Internet, thank you very much.  As it stands, I've actually removed even some of my Internet identification information from my profile, like my IM nicks, because in the past I've been harassed on other places due to comments made on this board.  On another board I used to frequent I even had some cocksucker try to phish for my home address.  

So it is with deepest empathy that I suggest that anyone even joking about revealing personal information about another user without his consent can take a flying fuck off a short cliff over a bed of rusty shit-covered nails.

I don´t hate the Pundit, just his banning policy.

I registered @Jim´s site before I read this thread to it´s illogical end, I just saw Jim, AM and the rest of the Raven´s Hollow crew and joined an hour ago. I only visited theHavenSite because Pundit linked to it. So please don´t take my participation as a participation in your (all of you) laughable inter-board-war. My gripes wtiht moderation here have been laid out, and I don´t have any others that need repetition on another site behind the back of anyone. So the only "out of spite" part with me joining "Haven" is, that I don´t contribute here anymore.

Bye

Quote from: flyingmice;301944THAT I don't care for, not at all. That is unethical. I must've missed that - like I said, I skip over that crap. Guys? Please explain this! Pundy-insults are one thing - he gets insulted here too, and he can take it - but violating a user's privacy is another order entirely! I know some things about Pundit - I'm his publisher, and I have to - but I've never breathed a word about any of it, not even to my wife. That's sacred, man! If either of you have threatened this, even jokingly, a sincere, complete, and public apology is in order, on both sites. There are no mitigating circumstances short of a government court order, and even then I'd think long and hard about it.

-clash

Edit: Posted while a slew of other posts were cascading down. It looks like it wasn't the site's founders but a member who said something. I left the above in place, though, because what I said is true for anyone willfully violating someone else's privacy, including my friend Ian. There are some screwed up people on the internet - just think of some of the whack jobs you have seen post here - and Pundit's pretty incendiary. The thought of some of those creeps getting Pundit's address... That scares me.

And we have discussed it and decided to not allow that talk on the theHaven. (http://www.therpghaven.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&p=3771#p3771) It should be noted that Pundit's name is a matter of public record, there is about a 15 second Google search to find it. I do not offer this as an excuse but as advice to Pundit. I can find pictures of him and his full name with, as I said, about 15 seconds and google. I would be happy to show him how I do this (in private of course) but I would suggest he ask someone he trusts more...maybe Brett or Storm Bringer.

So, the short of it, we will respect Pundit's wishes and ask members not to post his personal details. As well, in general, not to post anyone's personal info.

Hopefully that is enough for you Clash.

Quote from: Settembrini;301998I don´t hate the Pundit, just his banning policy.

I registered @Jim´s site before I read this thread to it´s illogical end, I just saw Jim, AM and the rest of the Raven´s Hollow crew and joined an hour ago. I only visited theHavenSite because Pundit linked to it. So please don´t take my participation as a participation in your (all of you) laughable inter-board-war. My gripes wtiht moderation here have been laid out, and I don´t have any others that need repetition on another site behind the back of anyone. So the only "out of spite" part with me joining "Haven" is, that I don´t contribute here anymore.

Bye

Your statement is illogical, Sett. Have you seen THEIR banning policies?

Apparently, the scheme for many of these people was this:
1. Cry foul whenever the Pundit makes an administrative ruling, accusing him of being a human rights violator and the worst kind of tyrant.
2. start their own site.
3. Decide that its perfectly ok for them to have an autocratic moderation policy, because all that shit about free speech and human rights isn't something they really believe in, it was all just to try to make me look bad.

Are you one of those people, Sett? If you think the moderation policy here is too harsh, what the fuck are you doing over there?

RPGPundit

On the scale of all things....

How important is this really?


In general, I think Pundit has been generally fair in most of the arguments I've seen.

As far as plagiarizing a thread - thats part of the reason I sometimes copy & paste my own threads to 2 or 3 forums - that way nobody beats me to it.A little over a year ago someone on the TPB lifted a thread I started wholesale and put it in their RPG section - and tried to pretend it was theirs . Doesn't help that was after I was banned.

In any of these cases of thread duplication the two versions of the threads will go differently, usually with the forum that has more members onboard giving a better variety of responses. (hopefully and likely)

- Ed C.

Quote from: RPGPundit;302009Your statement is illogical, Sett. Have you seen THEIR banning policies?

Are you one of those people, Sett? If you think the moderation policy here is too harsh, what the fuck are you doing over there?

RPGPundit

Well, in fact I don´t know their banning policies. I just read the "readme", and that sounded exactly the same as here, so I was giving the benefit of the doubt. I think it´s pretty clear were I stand, and that I won´t tolerae certain things. If Jim wants to speak on his moderation policy, that can be cleared up pretty fast, I guess.

EDIT: Fuck it, don´t drag me into this, both of you. I posted exactly because I don´t want any part of it. I´ll see how mod policy is at haven for myself, and act accordingly. Plese have your inter-board-war alone.

ADD:

That´s what I read

QuoteRules
1. Don't do, discuss planning or advise on illegal activites. This is a site liability issue.

2. Do not link to piracy sites. This is a site liability issue.

3. No Porn.

4. Spam accounts will be deleted. This includes if you come here only for spamming or spam bots.

5. No multiple accounts.

http://www.therpghaven.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2

Read their thread called "moderator policy".

RPGPundit

...well it´s the proto-fascist mindset, definitely. Seems someone must open a truly free-speech english language forum.

Well, Sett, I think you might be kind of nuts, but its good to know at least that you're not a hypocrite.

RPGPundit

Quote from: HinterWelt;302000And we have discussed it and decided to not allow that talk on the theHaven. (http://www.therpghaven.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&p=3771#p3771) It should be noted that Pundit's name is a matter of public record, there is about a 15 second Google search to find it. I do not offer this as an excuse but as advice to Pundit. I can find pictures of him and his full name with, as I said, about 15 seconds and google. I would be happy to show him how I do this (in private of course) but I would suggest he ask someone he trusts more...maybe Brett or Storm Bringer.

Oh wow, that was easy to find. I'd never actually had any interest in the information prior to finding out that it was such a big deal to know, but so easy to discover.

Don't worry Pundit old boy, your secret is safe with me!

Wow, doing a search for a guy's private information. What an absolutely douchey  thing to do. Reminds me of shit that goes on on ISCABBS or InaraBBS.
 
 What are ya, fuckin papparazzi for Pundit?

Welcome to the Internet.

I think the idea of the RPG Haven is ridiculous.

It's obviously a site for those that are butthurt by the Pundy. There's nothing you can get there that you couldn't get here.

They have all the same posters as post/used to post here, posting about the same shit. Except Kyle Aaron, who got banned (he literally asked for it).

There's no need for the Haven. I don't have time to check multiple boards for the same damn stuff.

If anyone is interested in the truth of the situation in terms of moderation on the Haven, here is the thread and you can read it for yourself:
The Haven Moderation Policy thread (http://www.therpghaven.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9).

Pertinent to understanding what is going on there is that it is an open discussion about how the members want the site moderated. No a "polis" of the select members that Jim and I think are worthy of contributing but anyone who is interested in how the site is run. It will evolve and change.So, I do not know we have a "moderator policy" that is written in stone and everyone has a stake in it.

Quote from: KrakaJak;302043They have all the same posters as post/used to post here, posting about the same shit. Except Kyle Aaron, who got banned (he literally asked for it).

For the sake of truth, in short supply in this thread, Kyle is not banned. Nor is anyone. There has not been a single banning on the Haven.

Quote from: KrakaJak;302043I think the idea of the RPG Haven is ridiculous.

It's obviously a site for those that are butthurt by the Pundy. There's nothing you can get there that you couldn't get here.

They have all the same posters as post/used to post here, posting about the same shit. Except Kyle Aaron, who got banned (he literally asked for it).

There's no need for the Haven. I don't have time to check multiple boards for the same damn stuff.

First off, I want to say that I think the complaint that started this thread is pointless.

Krakajak:  You say that "thre is nothing that you can find at the Haven that you cant find here.   There is nothing that you can find here that you cant find on rpg.net, enworld or any other rpg site.

But there are all of the different message boards and they are active and some people only post at a specific forum and some people post at various forums.

There is nothing wrong with multiple forums

Quote from: Hairfoot;301838Does this site really need to steal thread topics without attribution?

Plagiarism, like copyright, is not about ideas, it's about the particular manner of expression of an idea.

If I'm at a party and it's fallen silent in my little group, and in the next group I hear them say, "and that new tax they're bringing in -" it's not "plagiarism" for me to turn to my group and say, "did you hear about that new tax they're bringing in?" That's just the way conversations go.

A principle in copyright law is also the "doctrine of merger", which is that if there are only so many ways of expressing a fairly common thing, you can't really protect that particular expression. There are only so many ways to say, "and then the players roll for initiative", for example, so TSR couldn't have sued the other 100 or so rpgs published in the first few years for including some phrase like that.

Likewise, there are only so many topics in rpg discussion, particular phrases are going to pop up again and again.

Finally, like many people new to therpgsite, you're confusing RPGPundit with therpgsite as a whole. You think you're attacking therpgsite by attacking him; you're not. You're just being a cocksmock and trying to disrupt conversations here.

And cocksmocks also are those threatening to reveal personal shit about Pundit. I think his concern for privacy is loopy and ultimately futile, but if that's what he wants, well who cares? Leave him to it. Don't be a cunt.

This cross-board rivalry nonsense is childish. I believe in a free market of discussion forums, let the best one gain the most members and get better still, let the dull ones perish naturally. In a competition, you don't win by complaining about the competition, you welcome the competition as it makes you improve yourself. And of course, there is no final winner in a free market, no time when people buy just that one product. Likewise, there'll never be a time when all rpg discussion is at one website and with just one style. And that's a good thing.

therpgsite and rpghaven both need to stop bitching about the existence of competition, and get off their arses to make their own forums the best they can.

A forum is nothing more than the sum of all the posts to it. Make yours worthwhile. And make them about rpgs, you drongos.

Quote from: SettembriniBye

Settembrini, no matter how many times you post to say you won't be posting anymore, nobody is going to beg you to stay. Sorry. That's not personal, it's just the way therpgsite is. If you want warm fuzzies and a "community" of people asking after you and begging you to hang around, try rpg.net Tangency.

Quote from: KrakaJak;302043They have all the same posters as post/used to post here, posting about the same shit. Except Kyle Aaron, who got banned (he literally asked for it).

I did? Wow, I didn't even know. I just posted a few times, I remember thinking they were being cocksmocks - all the guys who over here were jumping in and flaming the fuck out of people, or sniping away droog-style, were suddenly all precious and wanting to talk nice. So I walked away.

I guess I'll have to go and have a look and see what happened, now. I certainly hope Settembrini didn't hop up to defend me!

Edit: I'm not banned from there, you cocksmock. Stop trying to stir cross-board shit.

I also think the thread that started this conversation was pointless. There's no reason why content couldn't exist in both places.

Pundit has been more than fair here, works hard to seed conversations (which is a bit of a lost art) and he has an admirable free speech policy. I think it's obvious that theRPGHaven wouldn't exist with out the community building this place had to begin with.

Ironically, the only reason I ever registered at the other site is someone kept bringing me up specifically (by name) in a post yanked from here. So much for plagiarism.

That said, I don't feel completely comfortable in either place.

I don't envy moderation here.

I like Pundy.  I'm a mod here (not that it's a huge burden, but still).  I enjoy and lurk on both boards, occasionally swooping in with a comment or thread.

Guys, I'm 29 years old.  We just had our third kid this year.  When I want to do any writing or gaming planning, it usually means not sleeping.

I love this hobby. I love designing campaigns, I love reading people's thoughts on games, I love discussing GMing.  And I have less and less time to spend on those things.

So yeah, I'm a member on both boards. And I don't have the time to muck up the time I can spend here and there on pointless and back-and-forth non-gaming bullshit.  So I'll stay a member of both, and will blissfully ignore all this shit so long as I can.

Aww man... People were having a lovely flame war about nothing, until you ruined it with some common sense. Why, Zach, why?

Quote from: JongWK;302075Aww man... People were having a lovely flame war about nothing, until you ruined it with some common sense. Why, Zach, why?

I stick with my strengths--and that includes ruining things. :)

I feel about this pretty much as Zack does.

Quote from: KrakaJak;302043I don't have time to check multiple boards for the same damn stuff.

Eventually (already?) you'll be able to aggregate content from multiple forums using RSS or Atom, then you won't even realize that there are different sites. And you can annoy people by quoting Pundy in the middle of a thread over there, that he quoted over here.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;302056all the guys who over here were jumping in and flaming the fuck out of people, or sniping away droog-style, were suddenly all precious and wanting to talk nice. So I walked away.

Hey, if the change in venue makes them better folks to talk to, why wouldn't you see that as a good thing? (Unless you're saying they don't really engage the topic, which, yes, I've seen hints of. But not always.)

We don't need no stinkin' common sense around here! :D

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;302080Hey, if the change in venue makes them better folks to talk to, why wouldn't you see that as a good thing? (Unless you're saying they don't really engage the topic, which, yes, I've seen hints of. But not always.)

Yes, that's what I meant; sorry I was unclear.

If people can politely contend with the topic, great! But I'd rather have rude and pushy and actually biting into the topic than polite and wishy-washy and avoiding the meat of the thing.

I think it's that management thing of forming-storming-norming-performing. In the early stages of any group, people are all polite and sensitive with each-other - but they don't get anything done. As they get over that initial sensitivity, people step forward to try to steer the group where they want to go; but someone else doesn't like that, thus storm - still nothing is getting done, but they're at least sorting out what should be done. Then they settle down into a new way of interacting and doing things, and eventually may even achieve something.

In groups with changing membership, like forums, you can get stuck in the storming stage, since every time someone new comes along or someone old steps out, it all turns upside-down again. That the conflicts seem to go nowhere leads some people to get all defensive and seek the peace and quiet of the norming phase. Which is what those flamey guys have done in forming rpghaven.

Hairfoot is perhaps trying to storm up rpghaven a bit with some cross-board drama, to take them out of their polite but unproductive norming phase. It won't work, though: change must begin at home.

Quote from: shalvayez;302031Wow, doing a search for a guy's private information. What an absolutely douchey  thing to do. Reminds me of shit that goes on on ISCABBS or InaraBBS.
 
 What are ya, fuckin papparazzi for Pundit?

You pathetic sycophant. If you're that desperate to be loved, there are better sites on the internet for you.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;301917I think having two boards to read is good for me.  The more, the merrier.

I think that whether or not The Haven was set up as a 'reaction' to The Site doesn't matter.  If it was (which I don't believe), whatever.  If not, whatever.

I think that The RPG Pundit is fucking nuts.  Seriously.  Like, Howard Hughes-grade jacked-up in the brains Kleenex-boxes-on-the-feet wahoo.  He's paranoid, he's boastful, he's a fucking sideshow.  Oh, that reminds me:

I think The RPG Pundit isn't a real guy.  I think he's an act; a role.  An experiment, maybe one taken so far as to...well...be annoying, frankly.  I mean, stand for what you stand and say your piece, but hammering, hammering, hammering...?  Ugh.

I think that The Pundit's act of transplanting thread topics, whatever its true or claimed intent, came across as laughable, childish and pathetic.  I didn't say much about it (very little, in fact) because I thought that things would right themselves without me.  It didn't hurt or offend me, my family or my friends, so I let it go.  

I think that this whole hobby is already pretty goofy-assed to begin with, without these inter-forum brouhahas and petty arguments and "Swine Wars" and other such bullshit.  Don't get me wrong -- I love this goofy-assed hobby like you wouldn't motherfucking believe, but I love it because it is so gleefully goofy-assed.  Not 'silly' or 'laughable' or 'lesser' to anything.  Look, we're playing pretend.  It's fun and it's social and it's something to share and enjoy and it's harmless and it's inspirational and it's educational and it's a pure goddamn delight.  This is a swell hobby to have and enjoy, my friend.  Still and all -- what's that quote about "My way of pretending to be a gay-ass elf", again?  Who said that?  I keep forgetting who said that.  Somebody tell me who said that so I can give him or her a medal.

What the Doc said. This is fucking ridiculous.

Quote from: boulet;301941Is this a thread on how to run a soap opera campaign? Where's my butthurt ointment ?

I could use some, too.

Quote from: flyingmice;301944THAT I don't care for, not at all. That is unethical. I must've missed that - like I said, I skip over that crap. Guys? Please explain this! Pundy-insults are one thing - he gets insulted here too, and he can take it - but violating a user's privacy is another order entirely! I know some things about Pundit - I'm his publisher, and I have to - but I've never breathed a word about any of it, not even to my wife. That's sacred, man! If either of you have threatened this, even jokingly, a sincere, complete, and public apology is in order, on both sites. There are no mitigating circumstances short of a government court order, and even then I'd think long and hard about it.

Clash nails it, as always. It's uncool to reveal the identity of the Pundit against his will. I don't care about that, my name is in my signature, my location is real and my caricature is really accurate. But I feel that Pundit's privacy must be respected, as anyone else's.

Quote from: Koltar;301953What the _______ ?

 Pundit was on the "A Team"?

Best post in the entire thread.

Now, Pundit, mate, it's not about you. I'm sure it comes as a surprise, but Universe doesn't revolve about you.

Since I pride myself on being a thread-killer, let's just say I found this all very entertaining. :)

Quote from: RPGPundit;301957Ok, let me tell you how this going to pan out. You've already crossed the rubicon.There's no going back. Whether you meant to or not (and I'm sure you did, only not in a way that it would come back to bite you in the ass like this) your site is a reactionary site. Its become the anti-pundit site.

And that's all its going to have that theRPGsite won't.

And everything you say here only goes further to advance that.
I'm so confident, I'm basically telling you how I've destroyed you, because its too late. I beat you 35 minutes ago, so to say; and the moment I knew it was already over was when you posted here.

You're done. Your site might keep going for a time, we'll see how long that dog can hunt, but in the end its a one-trick-pony.

And I'm telling you all this, because really there's fuck all you can do about it now. In fact, I'm counting on the fact that explaining all this to you is only going to lead to you unintentionally accelerating your site's demise.

Thanks for making this an extra-special birthday.

RPGPundit

Dude, what color is the sky where you live?

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;302105You pathetic sycophant. If you're that desperate to be loved, there are better sites on the internet for you.

 Actually, by the likes of most of you, I would prefer to be despised, now, please go piss on an electric fence before you decide to enter the gene pool, you moronic waste of DNA.

Quote from: shalvayez;302137Actually, by the likes of most of you, I would prefer to be despised, now, please go piss on an electric fence before you decide to enter the gene pool, you moronic waste of DNA.

I know Pundit has a thing for whores, but I don't think you're his preferred type. Sorry to disappoint!

Edit: Also, and this may be an obvious question, why on earth is your avatar Adolf Hitler?

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;302162Edit: Also, and this may be an obvious question, why on earth is your avatar Adolf Hitler?

It's not Adolf. It's a nazi zombie from the norwegian flick Dead Snow.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;302024Oh wow, that was easy to find. I'd never actually had any interest in the information prior to finding out that it was such a big deal to know, but so easy to discover.

Don't worry Pundit old boy, your secret is safe with me!

This is the behavior of a douchebag.

Quote from: KrakaJak;302043I think the idea of the RPG Haven is ridiculous.

It's obviously a site for those that are butthurt by the Pundy. There's nothing you can get there that you couldn't get here...

Ah, this is the moment in Internet discourse that I always await with baited breath -- "My team is better than your team."  Your disquieting emphasis on homoerotic imagery and factual inaccuracy* aside, thank you for dispelling the suspense.  

You do realise that this is very much the sort of thing die-hards on RPG.net said about theRPGsite in the early days, yes?  And many still do.

!i!

[*Regarding Kyle, to be precise.]

Quote from: Ian Absentia;302173Ah, this is the moment in Internet discourse that I always await with baited breath -- "My team is better than your team."  Your disquieting emphasis on homoerotic imagery and factual inaccuracy* aside, thank you for dispelling the suspense.  

You do realise that this is very much the sort of thing die-hards on RPG.net said about theRPGsite in the early days, yes?  And many still do.

!i!

[*Regarding Kyle, to be precise.]

I don't know about all that.

Kyle Aaron raises an important point. If people who were nothing but disruptions here, who didn't engage in the discussion topics except to annoy people here, are now all sweetness & light over on another forum - is their intention really to discuss RPGs or is it just to improve their own tarnished image? Just because they suddenly appear to be more polite on another forum doesn't mean that they will engage in discussion with any depth on topics, it just means they appear more polite.

Quote from: jeff37923;302177people who were nothing but disruptions here, who didn't engage in the discussion topics except to annoy people here, are now all sweetness & light over on another forum -

Good riddance to the couple of posters who spent years here doing little but drive-by 1 line snipes or devils advocate crap who have had a sudden multiple personality revelation and are now good little indians elsewhere.

Some people are under the mistaken impression that taking offense early and reacting extremely is simply the way to act here.

Quote from: Imperator;302106Now, Pundit, mate, it's not about you. I'm sure it comes as a surprise, but Universe doesn't revolve about you.

You say that, and yet the tone and threads explaining the origin of this other site seem to tell a different story.
You know, people say I'm arrogant, but can I help it when I'm surrounded by dozens of people who keep repeating over and over and over and over again "Its not about the PUNDIT! Its not about the PUNDIT!" while going on and on and on and on about how they want to bring the PUNDIT down, how much better their site is going to be than the PUNDIT'S, how they can't stand the PUNDIT'S latest antic, how they PUNDIT PUNDIT PUNDIT PUNDIT PUNDIT... its every second fucking word with you people.

I mean seriously, it makes a guy get a little big-headed, sure.
Wouldn't you be if everyone was constantly talking about YOU?

..But of course, in your case, they're not.

RPGPundit

Quote from: jeff37923;302177I don't know about all that.

Kyle Aaron raises an important point...

No, no.  I didn't mean to suggest that Kyle was being factually inaccurate; I was referring to KrakaJak's misinformed inaccuracy regarding Kyle's brief flirt with the other site.

But as long as we're talking about personality changes, there are a good handful of people here whom I've really come to enjoy and respect, whom I thought were unrelenting dicks over on RPG.net.  The change of venue did them some good, and rather than sneering about how they suddenly became reasonable people once they got here, I enjoyed the chance to get to know them under better circumstances.

!i!

Quote from: jeff37923;302177I don't know about all that.

Kyle Aaron raises an important point. If people who were nothing but disruptions here, who didn't engage in the discussion topics except to annoy people here, are now all sweetness & light over on another forum - is their intention really to discuss RPGs or is it just to improve their own tarnished image? Just because they suddenly appear to be more polite on another forum doesn't mean that they will engage in discussion with any depth on topics, it just means they appear more polite.

Well, that is a good question. Look at Droog, for example. He has a long history of posting almost nothing but one-liners here. He'll pop into some thread, post a single line of sarcastic or insulting or incendiary text, and then pop out again. He's been doing that here for two years.
It was a shock to me to discover that on that other site, droog posts entire parargraphs.
Consistently.

What does that tell you about why Droog is here, and why he is there?
Here he posts nothing but one-line insults, because he wants this site to fail, and he wants to disrupt it.
He wants the Haven to succeed (why? I suppose because its anti-Pundit and Forge-friendly), so there he makes real contributions, consistently.

I don't think in his case, at least, its a question about reforming his image. I think its about what he really wants to do here, vs. what he really wants to do there.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;302184What does that tell you about why Droog is here...

He likes the company, but not the conversation.

Quote...and why he is there?

He likes the company and the conversation.

QuoteI don't think in his case, at least, its a question about reforming his image. I think its about what he really wants to do here, vs. what he really wants to do there.

In this line alone, I think you're right.  But I don't think droog needs me defending him.

!i!

I like how Skach is now bragging about spam-bombing this site ("I put two links to our site in every post i make there").  So much for "this isn't an rpgsite-reaction site", huh?

RPGPundit

Quote from: jeff37923;302172This is the behavior of a douchebag.

Does this mean you're finally going to let me into the clubhouse, then?

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;302194Does this mean you're finally going to let me into the clubhouse, then?

The clubhouse doesn't allow douchebags. You may reapply for membership once you reform your behavior.

Douchebag.

Quote from: jeff37923;302177I don't know about all that.

Kyle Aaron raises an important point. If people who were nothing but disruptions here, who didn't engage in the discussion topics except to annoy people here, are now all sweetness & light over on another forum - is their intention really to discuss RPGs or is it just to improve their own tarnished image? Just because they suddenly appear to be more polite on another forum doesn't mean that they will engage in discussion with any depth on topics, it just means they appear more polite.

Or, it could be the environment here. Ad hominem is the accepted method of debate and the environment of this board is one of hyperbole. Some people cannot handle that kind of environment or more to the point it brings out a certain behavior. The gods know I do not post the same here as I do at RPG.Net or EnWorld. Part of it is the rules are different but equally important is the community present at those board, the environment if you will an dwhat the community encourages.

Quote from: One Horse Town;302180Good riddance to the couple of posters who spent years here doing little but drive-by 1 line snipes or devils advocate crap who have had a sudden multiple personality revelation and are now good little indians elsewhere.

Thanks again!

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;302181Some people are under the mistaken impression that taking offense early and reacting extremely is simply the way to act here.

Unfortunately, I feel that has become the default culture of this board. That does not mean that is how it always goes down or that there is not value here. I still post occasionally. For me, it is not about "TheRPGSite is X so I will found X-Y". It was a case of RPG.Net does not serve me 100%, and EnWorld does not serve me 100%, and now, because of the natural evolution of this board, theRPGSite does not serve me 100%. Who knows, down the road, the Haven may go the same way.

I've been treated very well by the majority of people on this board, even by people I have had disagreements with, such as Koltar. I can copy and paste all the support I received when I had posted about my hardships last December, and CavScout decided to open his facial sphincter. People who dismiss RPGsite as hostile, can shove it up their ass. RPGsite is BRUTALLY HONEST. Pundit is a great example of brutal honesty, a trait I admire. The people who whine about it can go back to the Forge glory holes, or whatever hole they crawled out of.
 If you cannot handle Brutal Honesty, than this board probably isn't for you.
 I thank those who have been supportive, and I moon those who crap out their mouths.  In fact, the people who are always thread crapping, I suppose are also F.A.T.A.L. players.

Quote from: HinterWelt;302221Or, it could be the environment here.

I don't think it is the environment, unless your forum is designed to rehabilitate posters who have flamed out and been banned from other previous forums for their behavior. The people who you are saying do not function well in the environment here have also not functioned well on other internet forums either which have different environments.

Quote from: RPGPundit;302182You say that, and yet the tone and threads explaining the origin of this other site seem to tell a different story.
You know, people say I'm arrogant, but can I help it when I'm surrounded by dozens of people who keep repeating over and over and over and over again "Its not about the PUNDIT! Its not about the PUNDIT!" while going on and on and on and on about how they want to bring the PUNDIT down, how much better their site is going to be than the PUNDIT'S, how they can't stand the PUNDIT'S latest antic, how they PUNDIT PUNDIT PUNDIT PUNDIT PUNDIT... its every second fucking word with you people.

I mean seriously, it makes a guy get a little big-headed, sure.
Wouldn't you be if everyone was constantly talking about YOU?

..But of course, in your case, they're not.

RPGPundit

True, in my case people probably don't talk about me so much because I haven't made a tireless effort on building a psychotic persona over Internet, get kicked of several message boards and, when it comes to certain games and designers, behave like a complete fucknugget. And I'm glad for that.

You may want to hold responsibility for that.

But nothing of these proves that. Yes, some persons at the Haven may hve grudges against you, which shouldn't come as a surprise. That doesn't makes the Haven a board only devoted to destroying this site and everything related to it. There are some differences.

I post and read mainly the boards here, RPG.net and Nación Rolera. From tim to time I visit Storygames, the Forge and some official message boards. I don't see why visiting some boards should prevent me from visiting others.

As Shalvayez says, I don't think these boards are hostile. And frankly, the Swine Conspiracy is fun to read. I don't care if some other person consiedrs me a Swine because we don't always like the same games, or whatever. But I can see how some other persons may appreciate to be able to discuss any game without any assumption of conspiracies, ideological wars and shit like that.

Quote from: HinterWelt;302221Thanks again!

You're welcome!

My regards to droog and WalkerP!

Quote from: jeff37923;302227I don't think it is the environment, unless your forum is designed to rehabilitate posters who have flamed out and been banned from other previous forums for their behavior. The people who you are saying do not function well in the environment here have also not functioned well on other internet forums either which have different environments.

Well, I do. For instance, I remember a number of more lengthy posts from droog early on. It quickly dwindled off mostly from the culture of this board. Why he was here is for him to answer but the reason he posted less and less is that the games he wanted to post about were not well received here. At the Haven, he can talk about whatever games, reference the games he plays in his posts and not have to worry about someone screaming "swine" at him. Now, I have the same problem over at RPG.Net but with the etymology of words. I do not post lenghty or often at RPG.Net. My problem is partly how I learned English. It makes me very aware of the origin of the words I use and their meanings.

Now, I came to squirrelnutkinland and I did not have to worry about that. I did not have to know where the word "piker" came from or be worried if I used "gypsy" instead of "roma". I could just talk about RPGs and it was different. Heck, look at some of the tools that were on RPG.Net and got banned then came here and changed entirely. Environmnet and culture of the board do effect the way people post. Droog has an incentive to post with out fear of reprisal on the Haven, more importantly, he can use his play experience in the context of his posts. Now, what says about why he was here, I again say that only Droog can answer. He might just have been waiting for an alternative.

An underlying point I would like to adress Jeff, is that I am also not saying that the Haven is "better" than the RPGSite. It is better for me but may be worse for you. Again, the culture thing. Also, I do not believe it is a dichotomy. You need not choose theRPGSite or the Haven. I still visit and post on RPG.Net, EnWorld and many other boards. I have never portrayed any sort of ultimatum or even some sort of bizarre loyalty issue with posting to the Haven or here. Heck, I expect people to post here and many other places and hopefully on the Haven as well. I know I will.

Quote from: HinterWelt;302241At the Haven, he can talk about whatever games, reference the games he plays in his posts and not have to worry about someone screaming "swine" at him.

So calling out the Swine is forbidden! Thanks for proving me right, and fuck off with the insults you slung at me, insinuating I was seeing ghosts.

Proto-fascist control freaks. Kyle should feel right at home. Oh man, theRPGsite´s culture is so fucked up these days, they are exporting the fucked up-ness to metastasing boards these days.

Folks, grow a pair, all of you. Do away with mods and this childish crap.

Edit: I´m tempted, I must say. Tempted indeed.

You know what? I'm not happy with this situation at all.

Not at all happy.

Don't like Pundit? Great, man up and admit that's why the haven was started. I don't care about that. He ain't my bestest buddy either, especially at the time the haven first started.

But stop mucking about.

Not that any fucker cares, but you know what i've got invested in this site? The development of a game. 2 years of my time, in fact.

Stop messing with 2 years of my life.

People who respect me will hopefully take that at face value.

Let's keep the cross-forum shit out of it.

Haven - stop the trash talk. Pundit stop nicking threads. Bill, stop re-nicking threads whilst pretending to be above it all.

Quote from: Imperator;302229True, in my case people probably don't talk about me so much because I haven't made a tireless effort on building a psychotic persona over Internet, get kicked of several message boards and, when it comes to certain games and designers, behave like a complete fucknugget. And I'm glad for that.

You may want to hold responsibility for that.

But nothing of these proves that. Yes, some persons at the Haven may hve grudges against you, which shouldn't come as a surprise. That doesn't makes the Haven a board only devoted to destroying this site and everything related to it. There are some differences.

I post and read mainly the boards here, RPG.net and Nación Rolera. From tim to time I visit Storygames, the Forge and some official message boards. I don't see why visiting some boards should prevent me from visiting others.

As Shalvayez says, I don't think these boards are hostile. And frankly, the Swine Conspiracy is fun to read. I don't care if some other person consiedrs me a Swine because we don't always like the same games, or whatever. But I can see how some other persons may appreciate to be able to discuss any game without any assumption of conspiracies, ideological wars and shit like that.

There you go talking about me again.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;302254There you go talking about me again.

RPGPundit

You're doing everything you can for it to be about you. By copy/pasting the threads, you want to make the RPG Haven "theRPGsite sans Pundit". It's a double-edged sword, my friend, particularly when you start acting like a douche.

This whole thing is ridiculous. You're one of the jackasses who really, really want to keep this going. Can we all stop that shit now?

Quote from: jeff37923;302217The clubhouse doesn't allow douchebags. You may reapply for membership once you reform your behavior.

Douchebag.

Jeffy, the joke went over your head. Again.

Man, the more I read, the more fucking ridiculous this gets.

Think about it: All of the internet is Swine-friendly and moderated by cool kids cliques. In walks the Pundit and creates a place that´s anti-Swine and moderated by...well...Bill the Butcher, in all it´s tasteless, atavistic  "benevolent dictator" glory. Of course, banning only for the "purity of the polis", just as Dick Cheney does it.

So, instead of doing the LOGICAL thing, doing away with Bill the Butcher as the last opressive force against free speech & debate, the metast-asstic "Haven" recreates THE REST OF THE NET, reinstating Swine-tolerance and mod-clique protection! That´s fucking hilarious & stupid at the same time.

ALL of you look so doodyheaded right now, including Doc Rotwang.

Quote from: Settembrini;302263ALL of you look so doodyheaded right now, including Doc Rotwang.

You come off as a wandering, between-boards asshole who just enjoys this whole situation WAY too much, right now.

Can't take it when freedom of speech means some basic ground rules of individual responsibility to not be a dick? Enjoy your blog.
As simple as that, IMO.

And this is refuting which of my arguments?
Oh, none, I see.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;302257Jeffy, the joke went over your head. Again.

It's a joke that you are being a douchebag when you threaten to reveal someone's personal info on the internet just to amuse yourself? Ha-ha, lots of laughs there, douchebag.

Grow up and behave more like Hinterwelt because he's providing a good example to emulate.

Quote from: Settembrini;302275And this is refuting which of my arguments?
Oh, none, I see.

I don't need to refute any of your arguments because you're right, Sett.

That doesn't mean I'm wrong, since I didn't address your arguments in the first place but led them to their natural conclusion, further commenting that you're taking way too much pleasure out of all this crap flying around. Logical enough for you?

And let me show you, how YOU are indeed wrong about me (and so is Kyle whoda thunk?):

From the first few posts I made many years ago, I was consistent in my stance on moderation. And that´s why I helped making theRPGSite viable. Go back, and count posts & threads, and shitstorms. Go back, even in pre-nutkinland days, "my issue" always was the poisonous intellectual climate so prevalent in North American forums that are moderated via bannings.
For a while, I thought Pundit had the same stance, as I know now, he did not. Tough luck. Seems there is still a niche waiting to be filled. Anyone who does fill it, will have my full support.

But the sheer audacity of taste, making an anti-Pundit site is beyond irony, beyond stupidity. The fucking rest of the internet is anti-Pundit in the way you interpret it. It´s as useful or brave as writing an Anti-George Bush letter to a newspaper in Latin America.  
Oh sorry, you already conceded I was right with that point, I got carried away.

Quote from: Settembrini;302252So calling out the Swine is forbidden! Thanks for proving me right, and fuck off with the insults you slung at me, insinuating I was seeing ghosts.

Proto-fascist control freaks. Kyle should feel right at home. Oh man, theRPGsite´s culture is so fucked up these days, they are exporting the fucked up-ness to metastasing boards these days.

Folks, grow a pair, all of you. Do away with mods and this childish crap.

Edit: I´m tempted, I must say. Tempted indeed.

So, you would rather ban the swine? Good show. You really sick of it? Then fucking leave the sites you say you are going to leave and go found your own English RPG site. Do it. I did it. Why can't you? I suspect it is because you are all talk. Sorry, can't respect that.

Quote from: One Horse Town;302253You know what? I'm not happy with this situation at all.

Let's see, how does this work?
Cry me fucking river bitch. Too fucking bad.

Quote from: One Horse Town;302253Not at all happy.

Don't like Pundit? Great, man up and admit that's why the haven was started. I don't care about that. He ain't my bestest buddy either, especially at the time the haven first started.

No, because that is not the reason it was founde3d fucknuts. Serious, are you drinking the fucking Koolaid. I will say it again because you just seem to simple to get it, The Haven was founded as a place to discuss all RPGs in a low moderation environment. You can't do that here any more. That is not a bad thing, it just does not fill the need I have for a board.

Quote from: One Horse Town;302253But stop mucking about.

Not that any fucker cares, but you know what i've got invested in this site? The development of a game. 2 years of my time, in fact.

You are right, I do not give a shit.

Quote from: One Horse Town;302253Stop messing with 2 years of my life.

People who respect me will hopefully take that at face value.

I so but you seem to desparately want what I have come to expect as a typical RPGSite "discussion" of the topic.

Quote from: One Horse Town;302253Let's keep the cross-forum shit out of it.

I would fucking love to.

Quote from: One Horse Town;302253Haven - stop the trash talk. Pundit stop nicking threads. Bill, stop re-nicking threads whilst pretending to be above it all.

Oh, you mean the one on sci-fi tech, where I credited Elliot and provided a link back to this site? No. ETA: You know, I will, if Pundit does. My one to his ten or so.

Now, I would rather have a reasoned discussion, or really preferably none at all, with you about this Dan but you do not seem to want that. Am I mistaken?

As I said, Bill, I´m tempted. Upthread you´ll find it.

Quote from: Settembrini;302283And let me show you, how YOU are indeed wrong about me.

All I'm saying is: since you find the moderation so bad here and at the Haven, you still can enjoy your blog or create your own English-speaking board. That's it. How is that wrong about you? Because you just won't give up on your definition of free speech?

Sett, you're the funniest thing that I've seen in a long time.  Please continue posting here and at The RPG Haven.  Continue the War until the bitter end!  The utter stupidity of your posts just brings a smile and grin to my face.  Seriously, I just cannot help grinning when I read your infantile posts. :D (see!)

For some unfathomable reason, I have this mental picture of you as a scary (now, as opposed to when he was younger) Carrot Top look alike.

Quote from: Settembrini;302300As I said, Bill, I´m tempted. Upthread you´ll find it.

What? To blow hard some more on a site you have "left" about a hundred times. So, leave, go make you own site that is the new incarnation of 4chan...but freer.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

Quote from: Drohem;302312Sett, you're the funniest thing that I've seen in a long time.  Please continue posting here and at The RPG Haven.  Continue the War until the bitter end!  The utter stupidity of your posts just brings a smile and grin to my face.  Seriously, I just cannot help grinning when I read your infantile posts. :D (see!)

For some unfathomable reason, I have this mental picture of you as a scary (now, as opposed to when he was younger) Carrot Top look alike.

I have to say, it is fun. I mean, there is absolutely no way to take this guy seriously but it is fun to jab him.

All I can say is that I'm still waiting for the awesome argument that ends it all that Sett seems to keep up his sleeve, or the next best thing, for him to concede the point, but nope. It's not coming. German logic isn't what it once was, I'm afraid.

Sett: you can do better than that. Stop the nonsense and stick around on both sites.

You´r equite an asshole and intellectually indecent too!

Your slur is misapllied, and you should know that, as you are "well educated" as you claimed.

What did I say?

I can´t continue to contribute to either site, because of my stance on moderation. But I will and have spoken out on that issue, BECAUSE I FUCKING CARE about it. And I will do so again. And it would have been utterly stupid and hypocritical of me to remain silent, when the THING I FUCKING CARE ABOUT is being discussed.
It would be illogical.

And that´s why you and Kyle and some others are either dumb as fuck, or the most dishonest people around these parts:

Settembrini: "I will fight for freedom! I speak out against Moderation! Thusly I will stop pretending as if nothing happened, and tacitly copndoning the bannings!"

*another banning happens*

Settembrini: "Again I warn you and speak out agains bannings! It´s wrong!"

HunterKyle: "Haha! He posted again! Look what a blowhard he is!"

Idiots, dishonest, proto/crypto control freaks and shamus-lovers. Man, if anyone is actually acting upon it´s principles he declared, it´s  me. So fuck off. You are too stupid to remember what you wrote yourself two posts ago, so don´t make yourself even more into a laughing stock by misrembereing what my boycott is actually about.

Quote from: Benoist;302322All I can say is that I'm still waiting for the awesome argument that ends it all that Sett seems to keep up his sleeve, or the next best thing, for him to concede the point, but nope. It's not coming. German logic isn't what it once was, I'm afraid.

Sett: you can do better than that. Stop the nonsense and stick around on both sites.

Which nonsense? I´m the only one sticking to my guns. Honestly, you seem to be a smart guy: You surely must see the faulty logic of Bills utterances? It´s okay if you approve of them, but don´t pretend they don´t exist.

I approve of them.

Look. I believe there just can't be free speech without responsibility. People have a tendency to be irresponsible at times, and it just takes a few of them to completely hijack a site. That's where moderation comes in. I see good moderation as staying out of the way most of the time, but stepping in when necessary. And bans should be part of the arsenal.

You obviously disagree.

Tell me, seriously, honestly: why haven't you created your own board yet?

Quote from: Benoist;302336I approve of them.

Look. I believe there just can't be free speech without responsibility. People have a tendency to be irresponsible at times, and it just takes a few of them to completely hijack a site. That's where moderation comes in. I see good moderation as staying out of the way most of the time, but stepping in when necessary. And bans should be part of the arsenal.

You obviously disagree.

Tell me, seriously, honestly: why haven't you created your own board yet?

I have, and I told you so (what´s up with folks memories these days?). It´s here:

http://hofrat.rollenspiel-berlin.de/Forum/index.php

It´s unmoderated btw, and no bans. And heck of a lot more posts and history than "Haven". We don´t even have a discussion about it.

We also have a Fanzine that´s coordinated via the Forum, it´s here:
http://www.abenteuerpunkt.ch/serendipity/

And it´s self-organizing as much as possible. No editor.

Quote from: Settembrini;302339I have, and I told you so (what´s up with folks memories these days?). It´s here:

http://hofrat.rollenspiel-berlin.de/Forum/index.php

I honestly did not remember. How's that working for you?

You never have to step in as a mod, ever?

Nah, that was too easy...;)

Quote from: Settembrini;302339I have, and I told you so (what´s up with folks memories these days?).

Because none of us care what you say. Why can't you get that through your head?

Quote from: HinterWelt;302241Well, I do. For instance, I remember a number of more lengthy posts from droog early on. It quickly dwindled off mostly from the culture of this board. Why he was here is for him to answer but the reason he posted less and less is that the games he wanted to post about were not well received here. At the Haven, he can talk about whatever games, reference the games he plays in his posts and not have to worry about someone screaming "swine" at him. Now, I have the same problem over at RPG.Net but with the etymology of words. I do not post lenghty or often at RPG.Net. My problem is partly how I learned English. It makes me very aware of the origin of the words I use and their meanings.

Now, I came to squirrelnutkinland and I did not have to worry about that. I did not have to know where the word "piker" came from or be worried if I used "gypsy" instead of "roma". I could just talk about RPGs and it was different. Heck, look at some of the tools that were on RPG.Net and got banned then came here and changed entirely. Environmnet and culture of the board do effect the way people post. Droog has an incentive to post with out fear of reprisal on the Haven, more importantly, he can use his play experience in the context of his posts. Now, what says about why he was here, I again say that only Droog can answer. He might just have been waiting for an alternative.

So is your site a place to discuss RPGs or is it a place to rehabilitate internet reputations? Because it sounds like it is trying to do both.

Quote from: HinterWelt;302241An underlying point I would like to adress Jeff, is that I am also not saying that the Haven is "better" than the RPGSite. It is better for me but may be worse for you. Again, the culture thing. Also, I do not believe it is a dichotomy. You need not choose theRPGSite or the Haven. I still visit and post on RPG.Net, EnWorld and many other boards. I have never portrayed any sort of ultimatum or even some sort of bizarre loyalty issue with posting to the Haven or here. Heck, I expect people to post here and many other places and hopefully on the Haven as well. I know I will.

So then what exactly is more appropriate for discussion on the Haven then the RPGsite? A related question is, if both sites are relatively equal in quality for their discussions of RPGs, then why is there the active recruitment of members from theRPGsite? Particularly, why have only certain members of theRPGsite been singled out and invited to join the Haven? Is the Haven a private forum which only wants a specific approved RPG ideology to be represented?

@Bill:

You look pretty stupid right now.
Especially as you

AGAIN WILLFULLY or out of SHEER STUPIDITY ignore my actual point. If you were

1) not so dishonest
or
2) not cursed with a sieve-like memory

you would know that:
just some time ago I said:
http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=302015&postcount=59

and have said so a THOUSAND times before. And I happen to remember at least one bannings thread here were you were around. So I assume you are willfully lying?

QuoteThey can talk about Nazis. They can post porn. They can have absolute freedom of speech.

Was NEVER my position. As you must know from

1) the past
2) this very thread

Bill. You are a fruitcake. And a hypocritical one, too.

Quote from: Benoist;302341I honestly did not remember. How's that working for you?

You never have to step in as a mod, ever?

I wrote and told you guys. In this thread. And in the last two bannings threads.

Quote from: jeff37923;302346So is your site a place to discuss RPGs or is it a place to rehabilitate internet reputations? Because it sounds like it is trying to do both.

A place to discuss RPGs in a low moderation environment. Without agenda. Any RPGs or for that matter, games. My point is not to rehabilitate anyone.

Here is a list that might help:
RPG.Net - Around 2005 or so I really started to feel the weight of the place. Moderation was heavy and arbitrary. I liked the general openess but the site just turned over topics way too fast. Then we lost search. I post occassionally over there now.

EnWorld -  I love the utility of this site but it is just too focused. I really do not like the organization and subforums.

Storygames - Again, too focused on a particular style.

theRPGSite - For the most part I ignore Pundit (put him on fvb but need to take him off for stuff like this thread). I feel the culture on this site has shifted more towards a site where everyone wants to read about the same games or kind of games. I missed the old days of squirrelnutkinland and RPGSite before pundit because the culture was one where Pundit could scream about swine and droog would talk about gurps or some one else would go off on some game they found in a discount bin about playing bats seeking fruit. No judgements, no holds barred.

So, I can't tell you precisely what the site is because we will be making it. I am trying to encourage a certain posting style. I am doing so with leading by example. Are you going to have people calling each other assholes and flaming out? Sure, this is the internet. I am hoping to encourage a wide range of discussion though. Not just forge games. Not just old school. Not just DND but all of them intermixed with different playstyles.

So, if cavscout shows up, yeah, we will probably need to ban him. However, if he shows up and can keep it in his pants and talk about games then fine. I wont hold past transgressions on other sites against a guy. Heck, Droog once told me he would be thrilled to see me face down in the gutter. So, we aren't exactly buddies.

Quote from: jeff37923;302346So then what exactly is more appropriate for discussion on the Haven then the RPGsite? A related question is, if both sites are relatively equal in quality for their discussions of RPGs, then why is there the active recruitment of members from theRPGsite? Particularly, why have only certain members of theRPGsite been singled out and invited to join the Haven? Is the Haven a private forum which only wants a specific approved RPG ideology to be represented?

Well, first off, there is active recruitment across the boards. I have asked Cessna and Old Geezer and sever other posters over from RPG.Net. Mark and several others from EnWorld. AndyK and JDCorley form Storygames. But yeah, most of my posts have been here lately and I know a lot of the posters here. I asked them if they would be interested in the idea of the Haven. Many were, some weren't.

Whoa there tex. The Haven is open to anyone. Heck, if Pundit wants to register he is free to do so.  I asked the people who I thought would share my vision of a general RPGsite dedicated to all RPGs. Originally, I was thinking of a Forge style RPG site for all types of games but the community has seemed more excited about a general RPG site with wide focus. We might drift that way more.

So, no, no ideology I know of. So far we have had discussions about HeroQuest, 4e, general setting and campaign design and many other topics. I am pretty happy with the focus...erm, lack of focus?

Quote from: Settembrini;302347@Bill:

You look pretty stupid right now.

And you look fucking insane. That's not just my call there buddy.

Quote from: Settembrini;302347Blah blah

you would know that:
just some time ago I said:
http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=302015&postcount=59

and have said so a THOUSAND times before. And I happen to remember at least one bannings thread here were you were around. So I assume you are willfully lying?

Oh, yo mean like you lie about what I say. Sucks doesn't it.

Quote from: Settembrini;302347More insane ramblings.

Are you leaving yet?

Quote from: HinterWelt;302359The Haven is open to anyone. Heck, if Pundit wants to register he is free to do so.

That's personally what I'd want to see, so we can bury the hatchet and forget the whole damn thing ever happened in the first place.

Quote from: Benoist;302256You're doing everything you can for it to be about you. By copy/pasting the threads, you want to make the RPG Haven "theRPGsite sans Pundit". It's a double-edged sword, my friend, particularly when you start acting like a douche.

This whole thing is ridiculous. You're one of the jackasses who really, really want to keep this going. Can we all stop that shit now?

It was ALWAYS theRPGsite sans pundit. From the moment Hinterwelt and Skach were the guys who started the place. Not to mention when they started selectively recruiting from theRPGsite.

I just want it to be ONLY about that, to take that site to its logical conclusion. Fortunately, Mr. Skach and Hinterwelt seem to be quite willing to help me along with that. You too.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Settembrini;302300As I said, Bill, I´m tempted. Upthread you´ll find it.

Then do it already! At least it'd have a raison d'etre besides being a "we resent Pundit" forum.

RPGPundit

Quote from: One Horse Town;302253Not that any fucker cares, but you know what i've got invested in this site? The development of a game. 2 years of my time, in fact.

Surely your game exists independently of this site, no?

!i!

Quote from: RPGPundit;302366I just want it to be ONLY about that, to take that site to its logical conclusion. Fortunately, Mr. Skach and Hinterwelt seem to be quite willing to help me along with that. You too.

Hold on a minute.

*I* don't see the RPG Haven as "theRPGsite without Pundit". I see it as a different board with some but not all the same people, with different topics when we don't copy them cross-boards, and a different ambiance generally that Kyle thinks is for pussies but which I, personally, happen to like too, just like I like theRPGsite for different reasons.

*I* would like to see you join the Haven too.

Looks like it ain't gonna happen, but that's what I'd like to see.

Don't think of me as an enemy who wants to bring you down, because I'm not. I just want the cross-boards bullshit to end, and right now, you're the one who's stirring the shit (granted, I've not been helping either). So I'm pointing the finger at you.

Quote from: HinterWelt;302359theRPGSite - For the most part I ignore Pundit (put him on fvb but need to take him off for stuff like this thread). I feel the culture on this site has shifted more towards a site where everyone wants to read about the same games or kind of games.

Why don't you just speak plainly? Why do you guys use this secret code language instead of saying "you miss being able to talk about FORGE/Storygames"? Because those are really the ONLY type of games that you don't see lots of discussion about on here. If you look at the last two months' worth of threads on the main forum here, you'll see just about every kind of RPG under the sun, just no Storygames.

QuoteI missed the old days of squirrelnutkinland and RPGSite before pundit because the culture was one where Pundit could scream about swine and droog would talk about gurps or some one else would go off on some game they found in a discount bin about playing bats seeking fruit. No judgements, no holds barred.

So you mean that you'd rather theRPGsite was more like that other site that died out from disinterest?

Well, please feel free to model your site on that, since you so admire them and their track record; and I will be quite happy with where that will ultimately lead you out of inspiration.

QuoteWhoa there tex. The Haven is open to anyone. Heck, if Pundit wants to register he is free to do so.

I just wasn't particularly invited like that other list of "experts" who have in common only running sites that dislike me as policy, right?

Anyways, I don't see why I'd want to register to a clone of this site filled with people who joined it mainly out of some stupid concept of revenge against me and theRPGsite.

RPGPundit

Hey, would you guys from RPGhaven stop responding to this nonsense.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: HinterWeltHeck, Droog once told me he would be thrilled to see me face down in the gutter. So, we aren't exactly buddies.

He does that. You just ignore it, talk normally to him, and eventually he responds more or less in kind. He's hot-tempered, not a true arsehole.

Quote from: HinterWelt;302241Well, I do. For instance, I remember a number of more lengthy posts from droog early on. It quickly dwindled off mostly from the culture of this board.

It could also be because he hadn't gamed much. A combination of mundane personal issues of family/work and not finding the sorts of people he enjoyed gaming with meant that he was not regularly gaming.

If you've got a game session happening every week or two, that gives you something to think about and say. If it's just a one-off every few months, or nothing for years, all you've got is arguing about "canon" or rpg theory. Or snarky one-liners.

Speaking of which, Settembrini still can't stay away. He's like a guy who gets drunk and acts stupid at a party, and when people tell him not to be stupid, he storms out... then hangs out on the front porch abusing everyone. "Fuck all you cunts! I'm leaving!"
"Bye."
"I'm going! Really!"
"Okay, bye."
Nobody will beg you to stay.

Quote from: David R;302374Hey, would you guys from RPGhaven stop responding to this nonsense.

Regards,
David R

And here is their site's Cassandra, at long last. You know exactly what's going down, don't you? But they won't stop, surely you know that too.

RPGPundit

Quote from: One Horse Town;302180Good riddance to the couple of posters who spent years here doing little but drive-by 1 line snipes or devils advocate crap who have had a sudden multiple personality revelation and are now good little indians elsewhere.

I saw the same effect happen when CoG split off from Evil Avatar.  Everyone was all happy and polite and basically acted like everything bad that ever happened on the old site was obviously Evil's fault, and everything would be magically better without him.

Of course, withing a few months most everyone was pretty much back to their same old behavior, and the mods have had to ban one old troll after another that went right back to the same douchebaggery as before.  

It's still better than the old place, but largely only because the shift in population meant one of my biggest peeves about the old site DID go away (all the anti-PC trolling).  And the old place is pretty much a ghost town populated largely by mooches who register and post only for the giveaway contests and a handful of sycophantic suckups claiming superiority over the new site without actually having the slightest clue as to what the hell happened because Evil censored it all.

Quote from: HinterWelt;302344Because none of us care what you say. Why can't you get that through your head?

Actually, I do care what Sett says, so I would ask you kindly not to speak for me.

I just don't take things to the extremes that Sett does--not enough to stop posting here, or to stop posting to the new place.

Quote from: HinterWelt;302359A place to discuss RPGs in a low moderation environment. Without agenda. Any RPGs or for that matter, games. My point is not to rehabilitate anyone.

Here is a list that might help:
RPG.Net - Around 2005 or so I really started to feel the weight of the place. Moderation was heavy and arbitrary. I liked the general openess but the site just turned over topics way too fast. Then we lost search. I post occassionally over there now.

EnWorld -  I love the utility of this site but it is just too focused. I really do not like the organization and subforums.

Storygames - Again, too focused on a particular style.

theRPGSite - For the most part I ignore Pundit (put him on fvb but need to take him off for stuff like this thread). I feel the culture on this site has shifted more towards a site where everyone wants to read about the same games or kind of games. I missed the old days of squirrelnutkinland and RPGSite before pundit because the culture was one where Pundit could scream about swine and droog would talk about gurps or some one else would go off on some game they found in a discount bin about playing bats seeking fruit. No judgements, no holds barred.

So, I can't tell you precisely what the site is because we will be making it. I am trying to encourage a certain posting style. I am doing so with leading by example. Are you going to have people calling each other assholes and flaming out? Sure, this is the internet. I am hoping to encourage a wide range of discussion though. Not just forge games. Not just old school. Not just DND but all of them intermixed with different playstyles.

So, if cavscout shows up, yeah, we will probably need to ban him. However, if he shows up and can keep it in his pants and talk about games then fine. I wont hold past transgressions on other sites against a guy. Heck, Droog once told me he would be thrilled to see me face down in the gutter. So, we aren't exactly buddies.


Well, first off, there is active recruitment across the boards. I have asked Cessna and Old Geezer and sever other posters over from RPG.Net. Mark and several others from EnWorld. AndyK and JDCorley form Storygames. But yeah, most of my posts have been here lately and I know a lot of the posters here. I asked them if they would be interested in the idea of the Haven. Many were, some weren't.

Whoa there tex. The Haven is open to anyone. Heck, if Pundit wants to register he is free to do so.  I asked the people who I thought would share my vision of a general RPGsite dedicated to all RPGs. Originally, I was thinking of a Forge style RPG site for all types of games but the community has seemed more excited about a general RPG site with wide focus. We might drift that way more.

So, no, no ideology I know of. So far we have had discussions about HeroQuest, 4e, general setting and campaign design and many other topics. I am pretty happy with the focus...erm, lack of focus?

Okay, to be honest here....every website has an agenda, and every website has an ideology, implicit or not. Just because your website doesn't implicitly proclaim an agenda, doesn't mean it doesn't have one. Maybe you just haven't consciously thought about it yet.

Your website is new, and my opinion is that you're poaching members from this site. That doesn't make you Captain Evil or anything, but you're still doing it. Is it your intention to actually destroy this site? Ehh....I doubt it. Maybe I'm being charitable here, but I don't think that's your intent. However, your website is most likely a subconscious reaction against this place, and I think you created it because you wanted therpgsite without the Pundit, while forgetting that this place wouldn't really have gained this degree of success without him. Whether you love him, hate him, or don't give a shit about him, he got the ball rolling in regards to this website.

My real suspicion is that you and some of your other members wanted Pundit to go away, or at least shut up a bit, and relax the Forge games prohibition. Since that wasn't happening, you created your own site, and poached away some of the members here for your own place. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that some people can't stop talking about him...:rolleyes:

Personally, I don't give a shit if people want to talk about Forge games, because if they are indeed roleplaying games, then they should be open game in general rpg discussion. However, my view is also that Forge speak can still be extremely tedious, and is viral, in that it takes over an entire fucking forum if you give it half an inch. That said, I would probably allow discussion of Forge stuff in the main rpg forum again anyway, just to see what would happen. It would be an interesting experiment.

Incidentally, I say all this as someone who signed up to your website before this shitstorm unraveled for all the world to see. Frankly, I hope your site evolves into something all its own other than "therpgsite without the Pundit" or "the not-Pundit Show". You guys have a cool vibe going over there, though something about the layout hurts my brain. I wonder if the excessive green text does something to my head.... :(

Anyway, good luck to the future of your site. I hope things work out in the end.

Hang on a sec, when did it become forbidden to talk about Forge games?

At one time they were being shunted off into Off Topic, which was a bit silly--if only symbolic IMO. Now they're in Other Games, apparently. A debatable call but again, mainly symbolic and somewhat less exclusionary.

The main thing stopping discussion of Forge/Story Games around here is the combination of (is there a polite word for it?) threadcrapping, reaction to the threadcrapping, general lack of interest, and the impossibility of having even a sincere discussion about them without someone getting bent out of shape. (As in, if someone so much as mentions "immersion" or any of several other hotbutton points of criticism, it becomes time to convert the heathen.)

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;302405Hang on a sec, when did it become forbidden to talk about Forge games?

At one time they were being shunted off into Off Topic, which was a bit silly--if only symbolic IMO. Now they're in Other Games, apparently. A debatable call but again, mainly symbolic and somewhat less exclusionary.

The main thing stopping discussion of Forge/Story Games around here is the combination of (is there a polite word for it?) threadcrapping, reaction to the threadcrapping, general lack of interest, and the impossibility of having even a sincere discussion about them without someone getting bent out of shape. (As in, if someone so much as mentions "immersion" or any of several other hotbutton points of criticism, it becomes time to convert the heathen.)

Well, not forbidden....but Forge games do get shunted out of the roleplaying games section, don't they? :confused: I thought they were officially considered "Off Topic".

There's no "Off Topic" anymore--now it's "Other Games". At one time both forums existed, so by moderator policy, Forge games were even less "games" than Monopoly or Space Invaders. Now they're "games", just not "Roleplaying Games".

If the categories were "Traditional RPGs" and "Story Games", that would probably satisfy some more people, but not all.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302400Okay, to be honest here....every website has an agenda, and every website has an ideology, implicit or not. Just because your website doesn't implicitly proclaim an agenda, doesn't mean it doesn't have one. Maybe you just haven't consciously thought about it yet.

Oh, sorry. I did not mean to imply that there is not one but that there is not an explicit one meaning it is not a d20 site or a Storygames site.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302400Your website is new, and my opinion is that you're poaching members from this site. That doesn't make you Captain Evil or anything, but you're still doing it. Is it your intention to actually destroy this site? Ehh....I doubt it. Maybe I'm being charitable here, but I don't think that's your intent. However, your website is most likely a subconscious reaction against this place, and I think you created it because you wanted therpgsite without the Pundit, while forgetting that this place wouldn't really have gained this degree of success without him. Whether you love him, hate him, or don't give a shit about him, he got the ball rolling in regards to this website.

I guess my problem is with your use of the term "poaching". I invited a few folks to come over. I sent a total of...11 invites to posters here. Our membership is over 120 now. I sent 6 invites at RPG.net and another 8 to EnWorld posters (mostly small press I know).

Now, perhaps it is not clear. You post a lot here SL, so would it be safe to say you are an rpgsite "poster". It is easy enough to view it as a "reactiuon to RPGSite" and I have admitted that it is a factor. However, it is not the only reason not the raison d'etre of the Haven. It would make Pundit's job a lot easier if it were. This site is based on hate. Hate the swine. Hate people who do not play my games. Hate those guys because they aren't playing the games I approve of. That's the agenda I am talking about. Now, most of the talk here has been about RPGSite...why? Because we are on...theRPGSite and Pundit wants to make it about theRPGSite. I have listed my motivations but you do not wish to believe them. This is acceptable. You are registered over there so I would ask you, does it seem we have an agenda? Are we pushing story games? Are we pushing trad games? I don't think so but who knows, maybe you see it differently.

As to Pundit starting this site. Well, sure. I was here before he was but he took the reins when the other guys screwed it up...again. Again, you seem to be assuming I will have nothing to do with this site and hate it. I don't. I just don't. However it has dropped to a level much like RPGNet and EnWorld for me. That is, it is of limited use. So, instead of sulking around posting conservatively, I did something about my dissatisfaction. I still am a bit non-plussed about why people find that so contemptible. Heck, I did not even make a general post here about the Haven because I figured it would stir shit up.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302400My real suspicion is that you and some of your other members wanted Pundit to go away, or at least shut up a bit, and relax the Forge games prohibition. Since that wasn't happening, you created your own site, and poached away some of the members here for your own place. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that some people can't stop talking about him...:rolleyes:

I cannot speak for other members. I can speak for me. I do not speak much about him except as it comes up. Specifically, as with RPG.Net I use this place as an example of how I do not want moderation done when making my case to the community. Now, you want to read that as "the haven is out to destroy the RPGSite" well, it's a free country. I can say it is not my intention. However, I am confident that I have more or less ended my ability to post on this site. That is unfortunate but I did what I thought made sense.  

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302400Personally, I don't give a shit if people want to talk about Forge games, because if they are indeed roleplaying games, then they should be open game in general rpg discussion. However, my view is also that Forge speak can still be extremely tedious, and is viral, in that it takes over an entire fucking forum if you give it half an inch. That said, I would probably allow discussion of Forge stuff in the main rpg forum again anyway, just to see what would happen. It would be an interesting experiment.

But you do not make the call. ;)

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302400Incidentally, I say all this as someone who signed up to your website before this shitstorm unraveled for all the world to see. Frankly, I hope your site evolves into something all its own other than "therpgsite without the Pundit" or "the not-Pundit Show". You guys have a cool vibe going over there, though something about the layout hurts my brain. I wonder if the excessive green text does something to my head.... :(

Thanks. I am not wed to the layout or color scheme. Bring it up in the Forum. All the comments I have heard so far have been along the lines of "simple and clean".

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302400Anyway, good luck to the future of your site. I hope things work out in the end.

I hope so too. As I have said, the success of the site is not assured.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;302405Hang on a sec, when did it become forbidden to talk about Forge games?

I perhaps over stated my case Elliot and I apologize for that. Perhaps a better phrasing would be that such topics go against the culture and mandate of the site. Discussing them usually, as you point out, results in threadcrapping and less negatively, crickets. I do not want to have to pick my subjects carefully and watch my responses as the board is not receptive to searching out alternate games, IMO. Yours may differ. It would be like going to EnWorld and discussing Burning Wheel. Yeah, you might get some hits, you  might even get some discussion but you would be better off going somewhere like Story Games.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;302405At one time they were being shunted off into Off Topic, which was a bit silly--if only symbolic IMO. Now they're in Other Games, apparently. A debatable call but again, mainly symbolic and somewhat less exclusionary.

The main thing stopping discussion of Forge/Story Games around here is the combination of (is there a polite word for it?) threadcrapping, reaction to the threadcrapping, general lack of interest, and the impossibility of having even a sincere discussion about them without someone getting bent out of shape. (As in, if someone so much as mentions "immersion" or any of several other hotbutton points of criticism, it becomes time to convert the heathen.)

As I explained above, it would be a better phrasing to say forge/Story games are just not well received around here. I think it has gotten to the point where it is counter productive to post here about such subjects. A wider venue is what I desire however I would not say that is what everyone wants. That is not a bad thing, it is a subjective thing and wholly the opinion of the holder.

Quote from: David R;302374Hey, would you guys from RPGhaven stop responding to this nonsense.

Regards,
David R

You are wise sir. These folks asked reasonable questions and I felt I should answer them.

Darn.

Looks like I didn't get invited to the new 'cool' site.

- Ed C.

I'm going to laugh and laugh and laugh when the Forge/Storygames folks realize the Haven is an open season territory.

We'll see how long this commitment to supposedly open discussion lasts when every fucking thread is filled with pretentious bollocks, non sequitur responses, and blatant shilling.

It'll be just like RPGnet all over again.

Well, HinterWelt...or is it Bill? It's hard for me to keep track of everyone around here. :o I probably shouldn't use the term "poaching", as I don't really think it's intentional on your part. I also don't believe you want this site destroyed at all, and I definitely don't see you as malicious, but your site is absolutely a reaction against this one. That's not the end of the world! Just be honest with yourself about it. Remember, this place was also initially a reaction against another website (the anti-rpgnet site! :emot-v:), but eventually, that changed. I don't know when it happened exactly, but therpgsite eventually adopted an identity all its own.

The very same thing could happen for your website. Traffic there already looks healthier than the d20haven ever did, so maybe it'll work out.

ENWorld became annoying for me, because it became bloody, civil war between the 3e and 4e fanbase. It was beginning to transform into the d20 version of rpgnet when 4e came out, as posters were resorting to rpgnet-style passive-aggressive asshattery in order to flame someone who'd insulted their precious sensibilities. And as for rpgnet itself? I still visit there, but rarely post, as the moderation there actually made it the opposite of a friendly and emotionally safe environment, in which passive-aggressive bullshit ruled the day. So I came here.

I came here, because I'm not in the least bit worried about being banned. If I get into an argument with Abyssal Maw over 4e or some other shit, it will eventually end, and then we can have a normal discussion over something else, without anyone getting banned. Contrary to popular belief, this isn't really a complete war zone ;), and it's hard to get banned, unless it's one's intent to do so.

You know, it occurs to me that I have more posts here than...well, anywhere, so therpgsite must be doing something right. What can I say? I love this place. My advice for you is to learn as much as you can from this website (and others) in order to make your site as great as it can possibly be. The interforae warfare doesn't concern me too much. It's just so much pissing in the wind. People will fight for a while, and then just get over it.

Also, my advice to Pundit would be to lighten up on the Forge stuff. What I mean is, let people post Forge stuff in the main rpg section. I may not be interested in Forge games, but even I recognize them as roleplaying games. I say this as someone who got into a dick-waving contest with Ron Edwards himself over his ridiculous essays. Bonus points to anyone who remembers that scenario over on rpgnet. :heh:

Quote from: Koltar;302425Darn.

Looks like I didn't get invited to the new 'cool' site.

- Ed C.

Consider yourself invited...?

Quote from: J Arcane;302427I'm going to laugh and laugh and laugh when the Forge/Storygames folks realize the Haven is an open season territory.

Andy has been pimping the site regularly on Storygames so they are quite aware. Several of them have posted constructively.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302428Well, HinterWelt...or is it Bill?

It is Bill.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302428It's hard for me to keep track of everyone around here. :o I probably shouldn't use the term "poaching", as I don't really think it's intentional on your part. I also don't believe you want this site destroyed at all, and I definitely don't see you as malicious, but your site is absolutely a reaction against this one. That's not the end of the world! Just be honest with yourself about it. Remember, this place was also initially a reaction against another website (the anti-rpgnet site! :emot-v:), but eventually, that changed. I don't know when it happened exactly, but therpgsite eventually adopted an identity all its own.

Here is the thing, I feel I am failing at communicating the idea. Yes, part of it is theRPGSite. However, if say, RPG.net was a site I was comfortable posting at, I would have just lessened my posting here and picked up there. However, RPG,Net is not. Nor is EnWorld. So, I have no problem with saying the Haven, for my part as I am a co-founder, is a reaction in part to theRPGSite but you have to admit, others in this thread would define it as nothing more than that. I disagree with this. We have many poster from other sources, original threads with interesting responses. So, where other peoples characterization is to say it is all, I think it has been a misunderstanding that I am saying it is nothing. The truth is actually between.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302428The very same thing could happen for your website. Traffic there already looks healthier than the d20haven ever did, so maybe it'll work out.

I hope so. And it might tank tomorrow. Or we might get the united army of CavScout. There will be growing pains but hopefully folks will give it a chance.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302428ENWorld became annoying for me, because it became bloody, civil war between the 3e and 4e fanbase. It was beginning to transform into the d20 version of rpgnet when 4e came out, as posters were resorting to rpgnet-style passive-aggressive asshattery in order to flame someone who'd insulted their precious sensibilities. And as for rpgnet itself? I still visit there, but rarely post, as the moderation there actually made it the opposite of a friendly and emotionally safe environment, in which passive-aggressive bullshit ruled the day. So I came here.

And see, that is much the way I saw it. I just can add that I visit those sites and still post. I would like to think I could still do so here but I think that will be problematic. I knew that going into this though.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302428I came here, because I'm not in the least bit worried about being banned. If I get into an argument with Abyssal Maw over 4e or some other shit, it will eventually end, and then we can have a normal discussion over something else, without anyone getting banned. Contrary to popular belief, this isn't really a complete war zone ;), and it's hard to get banned, unless it's one's intent to do so.

I agree. It is not a fear of banning that is my concern with this site. That is why I say, sure, I do not like pundit or more to the point the imaginary persona, but more a cultural thing. It is important to note, I have not issued any "You must post on the Haven only". I do not for a second think people will choose any one site to post on or that I should have some claim over them because they choose to post on a site I run. Want to hang out here but visit every now and then, great! Want to work up some hate for the Haven because of imagined slights, I feel sorry for those folks but do what makes you happy. I have not said I will destroy this site or that I will somehow empty it. I do not think that will happen in the least. I do not even think it is possible.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302428You know, it occurs to me that I have more posts here than...well, anywhere, so therpgsite must be doing something right. What can I say? I love this place. My advice for you is to learn as much as you can from this website (and others) in order to make your site as great as it can possibly be. The interforae warfare doesn't concern me too much. It's just so much pissing in the wind. People will fight for a while, and then just get over it.

I intend to. Many of the things I like here I try to replicate at the Haven. Many of the things I like from RPG.Net I try to replicate there. Many of the things at EnWorld I...well, you get the idea. ;)

Holy McShite!

The half-drunk seed of controversy I planted has blossomed into a shambling carnivorous tree of nerd-flame!

I've never trolled in my life, and now I do it without even trying.

It's a nice potted history of theRPGsite for my edification, though.

Quote from: Hairfoot;302450Holy McShite!

You created a monster, Hairf. :D

"It's... aliiiive!"

Quote from: Koltar;302425Darn.

Looks like I didn't get invited to the new 'cool' site.

Then go ahead and register, if you're interested. It's not so fucking hard.

QuoteBonus points to anyone who remembers that scenario over on rpgnet.

Linky? Would love to read that, and work's been a bit slow so I have the time :)

Quote from: Imperator;302460Then go ahead and register, if you're interested. It's not so fucking hard.

Indeed. I'm practically computer illiterate, and even I could do it.

Quote from: ImperatorLinky? Would love to read that, and work's been a bit slow so I have the time :)

Sure. Be warned though....Mister Bat Penis himself tries to get an innocent poster banned, so it's not pretty. It's the "Fantasy Heartbreaker" thread. I think my first post is number 56. Enjoy. :)

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=429859

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302461Indeed. I'm practically computer illiterate, and even I could do it.


Sure. Be warned though....Mister Bat Penis himself tries to get an innocent poster banned, so it's not pretty. It's the "Fantasy Heartbreaker" thread. I think my first post is number 56. Enjoy. :)

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=429859

Thank you pal, engaging the thread right now :)

And I'm off to the gym at three in the mornin'. I'll leave you to that, so have fun. It's a long read. :)

Quote from: jeff37923;302277It's a joke that you are being a douchebag when you threaten to reveal someone's personal info on the internet just to amuse yourself? Ha-ha, lots of laughs there, douchebag.

Grow up and behave more like Hinterwelt because he's providing a good example to emulate.

I didn't threaten to reveal it. I made the comment that it was much easier to discover than I thought it would be. It appears we are once again dealing with your recurring illiteracy.

Jeffy, you're really going to need to learn at something above a grade 3 level one of these days.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;302405Hang on a sec, when did it become forbidden to talk about Forge games?

At one time they were being shunted off into Off Topic, which was a bit silly--if only symbolic IMO. Now they're in Other Games, apparently. A debatable call but again, mainly symbolic and somewhat less exclusionary.

That's right. There's nothing to stop people making Forge-game threads to their hearts' content, as long as they do it in the right forum.

RPGPundit

Quote from: HinterWelt;302414Now, perhaps it is not clear. You post a lot here SL, so would it be safe to say you are an rpgsite "poster". It is easy enough to view it as a "reactiuon to RPGSite" and I have admitted that it is a factor. However, it is not the only reason not the raison d'etre of the Haven. It would make Pundit's job a lot easier if it were. This site is based on hate. Hate the swine. Hate people who do not play my games. Hate those guys because they aren't playing the games I approve of. That's the agenda I am talking about.

Bullshit. This site is based on FREEDOM.  The freedom to talk about RPGs without fear of being banned for political incorrectness or daring to criticize the darling games, and freedom to talk about RPGs without being swamped, subverted, and forced to use the lingo of dubious Forge-theory.

Your site, on the other hand, is based on hate; or at the very least on being the "anti-pundit rpgsite-clone".

QuoteAs to Pundit starting this site. Well, sure. I was here before he was but he took the reins when the other guys screwed it up...again. Again, you seem to be assuming I will have nothing to do with this site and hate it. I don't. I just don't. However it has dropped to a level much like RPGNet and EnWorld for me. That is, it is of limited use.

Yes, yes, it was so much more useful when it was a joke site that died out to the point that no one posted on it anymore, before the big bad Pundit came along and turned it into one of the most successful RPG forums around.. :rolleyes:

QuoteSpecifically, as with RPG.Net I use this place as an example of how I do not want moderation done when making my case to the community.

Right, by having a more heavy-handed moderation policy than I ever did, while at the same time continuing to decry my "abuses" and talking about "free speech" on here, feeling no need to have the same freedom over there. Admit it: Your only issue about "moderation" here is that I'm the guy doing the moderating.

RPGPundit

Quote from: HinterWelt;302295Now, I would rather have a reasoned discussion, or really preferably none at all, with you about this Dan but you do not seem to want that. Am I mistaken?

The rest of your post disagrees with this statement. I'm so sorry that i had the gall to lay out my personal feelings on this silliness and that you felt the entirety of it was an attack on you and your site. No, it was an attack on the cross-board bollocks going on now and my feelings about that. You've been spoiling for a fight with me for some time, Bill. In several threads here recently you've gone out of your way to attribute something i've said to mean you or one of your games.

Well, you've finally had your way.

Let's have no more discussion at all before things are irrevocably broken.

Oh yeah, bitch (seems the cool thing to say at the moment).

Quote from: HinterWelt;302414This site is based on hate. Hate the swine. Hate people who do not play my games. Hate those guys because they aren't playing the games I approve of.

This bullshit needs to be quoted because it's an attack on everyone who chooses to post here. Yeah, HemorrhoidWelt, this is the RPG equivalent of Stormfront. :rolleyes:

Why don't you grow a pair and let 'em drop--- admit you want a forum where Pundit is not a nuisance. 'Cause yeah, he's a pain in the neck (I don't agree with his opinion on Burning Wheel, either.)

But you're not going to admit that because you're too much of a fucking pussy.

Cue more of your passive-aggressive bullshit.

Quote from: One Horse Town;302469The rest of your post disagrees with this statement. I'm so sorry that i had the gall to lay out my personal feelings on this silliness

Well when you paint with a wide brush...

Quote from: One Horse Town;302469and that you felt the entirety of it was an attack on you and your site.

or. Or my site. It is like saying this site is based on hate. Notice, it sets people off because it includes them. If you meant you wanted benoist to stop, you should say that. I have not posted about the haven except here and in one thread that was pertinent to the post. If that is "fucking with your life" I do apologize, sincerely.

Quote from: One Horse Town;302469No, it was an attack on the cross-board bollocks going on now and my feelings about that. You've been spoiling for a fight with me for some time, Bill. In several threads here recently you've gone out of your way to attribute something i've said to mean you or one of your games.

Odd, I would have said the same kind of thing about your posts. Again, that broad brush. It is to be expected that if you say "This site is based on hate" that folks will focus in on and view the broad brush to include them. You might mean this subgroup of posters but they read it as "One Horse Town! You are EVIL!". An unfortunate reality of the internet.

Now, you have made an observation of my posting style and I will try to alter it. May I make one of yours? You seem more...pissy? angry? I don't know what is going on, if it is me or something in your life or what but you seem a lot more, I have no better word at this time, angry. I hope you can work it out.

Quote from: One Horse Town;302469Well, you've finally had your way.

Let's have no more discussion at all before things are irrevocably broken.

Oh yeah, bitch (seems the cool thing to say at the moment).

As I said, more than happy to end it because I do value the discussions we have had.

Quote from: FASERIP;302507This bullshit needs to be quoted because it's an attack on everyone who chooses to post here. Yeah, HemorrhoidWelt, this is the RPG equivalent of Stormfront. :rolleyes:

Why don't you grow a pair and let 'em drop--- admit you want a forum where Pundit is not a nuisance. 'Cause yeah, he's a pain in the neck (I don't agree with his opinion on Burning Wheel, either.)

But you're not going to admit that because you're too much of a fucking pussy.

Cue more of your passive-aggressive bullshit.

This is a great example of what I mean. Not a shred of rational argument just ad hominem. It is not a case of FASERIP is irrational frothing maniac or some such. It is about the culture encouraging it, not just allowing it, but encouraging and rewarding it. No, not written rules or such but the environment of this board. Now, I think my point was to subtle. When I say based, I mean based, not that everyone is hateful. It is a culture, not as it has been represented of rational debate, but of ad hominem attacks and ideology. Hate the swine! Does that mean everyone hates the swine? No, of course not but it leads to a culture where this sort of argumentation is accepted and respected. You seldom see a heated discussion with out an attack on the persons making the arguments these days.

Now, here is the kicker, I am guilty of the same thing. I was part of the culture. I did not like that and as impetus to change and distance myself from such behavior I made a different board, am attempting to make a different culture. It may sure fail. I take such doomsayers who say a board where reasoned argument is impossible much the way I took the talk by RPG.Net mods that a low moderation board is impossible. However, in the end, it is my view of the environment here and my views of how conversations go on. Perhaps if I used my ignore more thoroughly I would have a different view. The important point is, it is about my views of this board, the options I had available in terms of where to post and what I did to resolve the situation. I still feel I did the right thing.

Now, as to, yet again, that ALL the Haven is is a reaction to this board, well, no. I have admitted that it is part of the reasons it was founded. However, it is incorrect to say it is "theRPGSite" without the pundit. If this were the case he would be banned as soon as he registered or I would block his IP, neither of with would be and is being done. Now, if I was copying threads from here, or the pundit was IP blocked or if it had only members from this board, well, I could see it but that is not the case.

I know it is hard to believe folks, but I really do not want any conflict with this board.

Your every post only digs you in further, Hinterwelt:
"Its not about the Pundit but we liked this site better before he got here!"
"Its not about the Pundit but his we want our site to have different moderation than his!"
"Its not about the Pundit but we want a site that doesn't have the same tone we blame him for on here!"
"Its not about the Pundit but (insert something expressing disapproval of the Pundit here)"

You seem almost physically incapable of saying anything about your site that isn't an overt or a subtle comparison to how things are done here, by me.  Its hilarious.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;302533Your every post only digs you in further, Hinterwelt:
"Its not about the Pundit but we liked this site better before he got here!"
"Its not about the Pundit but his we want our site to have different moderation than his!"
"Its not about the Pundit but we want a site that doesn't have the same tone we blame him for on here!"
"Its not about the Pundit but (insert something expressing disapproval of the Pundit here)"

You seem almost physically incapable of saying anything about your site that isn't an overt or a subtle comparison to how things are done here, by me.  Its hilarious.

RPGPundit

 Fuck, if they hate it so much here, why don't they go back to their gay little clubhouse?  Instead of sending a shill to start a thread about Pundit's alleged "plagiarism", why not just leave it alone, and stick to their game of Wet Biscuit that's going on at Haven?  Nobody forces them to read threads here or post, but HERE THEY ARE!  Attention whores, each and every single one of them.  Woot! They have a gay little clubhouse now, and they can exclude Pundit! Big fucking deal, go back to your pathetic little hovel, girls.
 
In fact, I propose you change the name to RPG Brothel, so you little trollops can ply your trade a bit better.

Wow.  Just...wow.  And I think of all the times I tried to defend theRPGsite over on RPG.net, contesting the notion that it had a prevailing climate of unrelenting negativity.

!i!

Quote from: shalvayez;302550Fuck, if they hate it so much here, why don't they go back to their gay little clubhouse?  Instead of sending a shill to start a thread about Pundit's alleged "plagiarism", why not just leave it alone, and stick to their game of Wet Biscuit that's going on at Haven?  Nobody forces them to read threads here or post, but HERE THEY ARE!  Attention whores, each and every single one of them.  Woot! They have a gay little clubhouse now, and they can exclude Pundit! Big fucking deal, go back to your pathetic little hovel, girls.
 
In fact, I propose you change the name to RPG Brothel, so you little trollops can ply your trade a bit better.

Dude. Not cool.

Quote from: Imperator;302561Dude. Not cool.

 What's wrong with the simple fact that if they don't like how this site is run, they should just get the fuck out? There are other RPG forums out there, in fact, the fuckers put one up. Le the one they put up fly on  it's own merits. Don't send a shill to this one trying to stir up shit.
 
 Or is calling RPG Haven "a gay little clubhouse" what has your panties knotted?

Well, it has several components.

Pseudo-homophobic slurs are not cool in my book,. I don't get really stressed about that, but I don't find them classy, ingenous, or specially good. I like a good insult as much as the next guy, but going down the gay route is really trite.

Second, I don't think no one send a shill nowhere to do shit. That belongs into the paranoid realm. Not here. Seriously, I don't see anyone at any board tryong to bring on a war or something, because all the Internet wars are essentially fictitious. Therefore, my first point is even more relevant, because you have even less need to use that kind of shitty slurs.

Third, the people who didn't like some things here did what you advise them to do. But posting in one site is not a exclusive thing. I enjoy reading and posting stuff here. And in RPG.net. And the Haven. There's no reason for me to do otherwise. So?

I see this site has filled Jackalope's vacancy for the position of "Angry Shut-In".

!i!

Quote from: HinterWeltThis site is based on hate. Hate the swine. Hate people who do not play my games. Hate those guys because they aren't playing the games I approve of.

Bill, I don't really think this site is based on hate at all. Maybe I'm being ultra-charitable here, but I just don't see it that way.

Quote from: RPGPunditBullshit. This site is based on FREEDOM. The freedom to talk about RPGs without fear of being banned for political incorrectness or daring to criticize the darling games, and freedom to talk about RPGs without being swamped, subverted, and forced to use the lingo of dubious Forge-theory.

Pundit tends to get a little unnecessarily riled up (and possessive) at times, but he does have a point. Sometimes, crankiness is a side-effect of the freedom to discuss things without the constant threat of the "banhammer" hanging over our heads. And when I say "freedom", I don't mean the freedom to post porn and spam every fifteen minutes.

The only major thing I would change about this place is the redirection of all the Forge stuff into the "Other Games" section, or wherever it goes. Pundit, I understand your hatred of it, but it might be best to put it back in the main rpg section, at least as an experiment.

Before I continue, let me explain my position about the matter. I have no interest in playing Forge games. Those games have waaaaay too narrow a focus for my tastes. Furthermore, I think Edwards is a prick. His essays are so much pseudo-intellectual trash, and his moderator behavior is horribly oppressive, so much so that even rpgnet looks like a bastion of freedom in comparison. Amazingly, his "ideas" are viral, in that people inspired by his site start inundating other places with discussions of GNS, game theory, and other pseudo-intellectual claptrap.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. That form of fappery is combated by the natural momentum of this site. That shit gained traction on rpgnet, because the moderation there did not allow you to critique the very premise of Forge ideas in an open and honest way on our own terms. Wasn't it forbidden to discuss Edwards' "brain damage" essay? :rolleyes:

Anyway, I don't think that would happen here. There are certain games that people want to talk about here, but don't, because it's considered inappropriate by "ye Pundit Himself". I say let people discuss whatever roleplaying games they want. That shit doesn't interest me personally, but if that gives someone else a thrill, why not? We can handle it now. We've grown enough.

Quote from: RPGPunditYour site, on the other hand, is based on hate; or at the very least on being the "anti-pundit rpgsite-clone".

I gotta disagree with you on this one, old chap. Their site is no more based on hate than therpgsite is, however, I do agree with your second point. I don't think Bill and the others are being completely honest with themselves about the fact that their place is a reaction against this one. That doesn't mean their site won't eventually become something great. It already looks good (though the Haven's layout makes it hard for me to concentrate...:().

I think the real problem here is that people don't like the way you personally, "the Pundit" talk in discussion, but they're mostly satisfied with your actual moderation abilities, which is something I find really weird.

A question I ask of Bill, is....what if Pundit signs up for your site, and acts exactly the way he does now? Will he be banned? I'd like to know the answer to that one...

Quote from: Imperator;302568Well, it has several components.

Pseudo-homophobic slurs are not cool in my book,. I don't get really stressed about that, but I don't find them classy, ingenous, or specially good. I like a good insult as much as the next guy, but going down the gay route is really trite.

Second, I don't think no one send a shill nowhere to do shit. That belongs into the paranoid realm. Not here. Seriously, I don't see anyone at any board tryong to bring on a war or something, because all the Internet wars are essentially fictitious. Therefore, my first point is even more relevant, because you have even less need to use that kind of shitty slurs.

Third, the people who didn't like some things here did what you advise them to do. But posting in one site is not a exclusive thing. I enjoy reading and posting stuff here. And in RPG.net. And the Haven. There's no reason for me to do otherwise. So?

 I don't actually see you bitching like a lot of these cocksmokers do.
 Second, I'm generally against slurs myself, and hell, I'm for gay marriage, but I'm going to call RPG Haven like it is, and that's basically a backpatting site, basically a daisy chain.
 
 Third, the shill was the bloke who started this thread.. RPG Haven wanted some attention, needed somebody to whore their name around a bit. And now they have their attention. Even negative attention brings people, as I came here based on shit said over on RPGnet.
 
 You're right, I shouldn't have stooped to using pseudo-homophobia for the post, but it got the point across.

Quote from: shalvayez;302550Fuck, if they hate it so much here, why don't they go back to their gay little clubhouse?  Instead of sending a shill to start a thread about Pundit's alleged "plagiarism", why not just leave it alone, and stick to their game of Wet Biscuit that's going on at Haven?  Nobody forces them to read threads here or post, but HERE THEY ARE!  Attention whores, each and every single one of them.  Woot! They have a gay little clubhouse now, and they can exclude Pundit! Big fucking deal, go back to your pathetic little hovel, girls.
 
In fact, I propose you change the name to RPG Brothel, so you little trollops can ply your trade a bit better.

You could have vented in any number of ways without resorting to this kind of really, really stupid, inappropriate slurs. I guess you wanted your hate to come across... and it worked.

That's a good 8/10 on my ignoramus meter, just a bit short on retarded, racist references and/or threats.
There's still room for improvement, I guess.

Quote from: shalvayez;302550Fuck, if they hate it so much here, why don't they go back to their gay little clubhouse?  Instead of sending a shill to start a thread about Pundit's alleged "plagiarism", why not just leave it alone, and stick to their game of Wet Biscuit that's going on at Haven?  Nobody forces them to read threads here or post, but HERE THEY ARE!  Attention whores, each and every single one of them.  Woot! They have a gay little clubhouse now, and they can exclude Pundit! Big fucking deal, go back to your pathetic little hovel, girls.
 
In fact, I propose you change the name to RPG Brothel, so you little trollops can ply your trade a bit better.

Dude, take a chill pill. Seriously. You're being a dick. And please change your avatar. It gives me the creeps...

Hmm, for some of the folks not versed on debate. There is a very basic idea called "Framing the Debate". It is a method where you take a point, verbally draw a frame around it where your point (the one you wish to make) and your strengths are inside the frame and the opponents are outside. So, for an example, we are here discussing the RPGHaven. It is considered "bad" because, as the argument has been framed, it is just "theRPGSite without the Pindit". Let's examine that.

The point that has been shved frantically ouside the frame is that the pundit could well go register. There is no restriction. There is no rule prohibiting him. He may not wish to because he feel the community would not accept him or that he would not find value for his time by the discussion presented by the culture there. Perfectly reasonable. I would not advise anyone to do otherwise.

Second, inside the frame is that somehow the Haven is dedicated to "Destroying theRPGSite". This is false. Shoved outside the frame is that I nor Jim have ever said we would "destroy" this site. In fact, pundit has said he is actively scooping threads from the Haven to "And then they have the gall to get all upset because I'm doing what needs to be done to make sure their site can never be about anything BUT "theRPGsite without the Pundit"?". For the record, I could care less about such things however it bothered some posters OF BOTH SITES. Now, how does the admin of this site respond? Threats, ad hominem and hatred. Not surprising.

Finally, part of the framing is on content. In reference to his admitted copying of threads, we obviously are generating contnet and thread ideas beyond what RPGSite is...else there would be no need for copying the threads.

I trust most of you will see what he is doing here, defining the field so he can "win". Hopefully you will be able to move past that and decide for yourselves.

Now, I would like to expand the explanation of the Haven. In otherwords, take the discussion to beyond theRPGSite as folks seem to be buying into strongly worded opinion as fact. Let's look at RPG.Net as one of the motivations for me.

I have posted there as HinterWelt for 7 years (before that for a year or so under a different handle). I have seen the days when moderators could not ban users, the board did not support it at the time, and had to ask the admins. I have seen when tech advancement allowed the mods to ban folks and they were like kids with new toy. I have seen how the moderation has come to a "kinder, gentler" level (although I would argue that i would say
"different kind of"). I learned a lot about what I wanted on that board. The biggest four things I took away from that was:
1. I like low moderation but not no moderation. 4 Chan is not for me.
2. I like general discussion where all games can be in play, whether it is a reference to monopoly or 4e.
3. I like a search function.
4. Rate of turn over, especially without a search function, is not fun at RPG.Net.

To that end I have gone to great pains to have functioning search, low moderation (despite claims elsewhere in this thread, no bannings and no topic bans have occurred) and how important culture is to my enjoyment of a board.

One could say that my coming here was a reaction to RPG.Net and this ultimately, the Haven is my reaction to RPG.net and not this place. They would be just as wrong as those that say that the Haven is nothing more than a reaction to this place.

Now, I am not preferring an either or condition to people here or at the Haven. Join whatever forums you wish, post as you like. I do not define a "polis" of people who count. If you post over at the Haven (or even you don't) I will listen to criticisms and try to make it better. I will not try to evoke some sort of patriotism to "Our Board!!". I merely welcome you to take a look. We do not have any hidden forums, no secret adminning forum. What you see is what you get and if you do not like it, I can appreciate that. After all, it is why I made the Haven;i.e. there were no sites I liked.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302578Dude, take a chill pill. Seriously. You're being a dick. And please change your avatar. It gives me the creeps...

 I'll chill. I'll lay off a bit. The avatar stays, your request is ridiculous.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302570Bill, I don't really think this site is based on hate at all. Maybe I'm being ultra-charitable here, but I just don't see it that way.

Not at all SL. You should note that this is all my opinion just as this is yours and the cool thing, we can both be right. You see this board differently than I do. You see lively debate. I see misogyny and cheap gay jokes. You see definitional argument free of unnescessary theory talk, I see "Hate Swine!'. You see a place to get away from moderation on RPG.Net, I see "We hate RPG.Net". I do not think it was always this way. The culture shifted  and maybe I changed. I decided to do something about it when apparently I was supposed to be a good soldier and keep plugging away here.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302570Pundit tends to get a little unnecessarily riled up (and possessive) at times, but he does have a point. Sometimes, crankiness is a side-effect of the freedom to discuss things without the constant threat of the "banhammer" hanging over our heads. And when I say "freedom", I don't mean the freedom to post porn and spam every fifteen minutes.

See, and I think this is a point you are misunderstanding about my position. Sure, I have made no secret out of my dislike of pundit, mostly due to his "persona" and the feeling I am talking to an imaginary construct when I engage him. My issue is that the culture has shifted. This is not even necessarily a bad thing (I think it is but it could be a plus for others) but it is one that peddles the kind of discussion we see in this thread. You may see a discussion between you and me in a reasoned mode but I see a crapload of ad hominem (heck some of it from me). I don't like that, so I did something about that.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302570The only major thing I would change about this place is the redirection of all the Forge stuff into the "Other Games" section, or wherever it goes. Pundit, I understand your hatred of it, but it might be best to put it back in the main rpg section, at least as an experiment.

Before I continue, let me explain my position about the matter. I have no interest in playing Forge games. Those games have waaaaay too narrow a focus for my tastes. Furthermore, I think Edwards is a prick. His essays are so much pseudo-intellectual trash, and his moderator behavior is horribly oppressive, so much so that even rpgnet looks like a bastion of freedom in comparison. Amazingly, his "ideas" are viral, in that people inspired by his site start inundating other places with discussions of GNS, game theory, and other pseudo-intellectual claptrap.

And let me say, I think the same way. I do not play forge games, Any I have I have not really enjoyed. I used to be a the most trad of trad designers but now, apparently, I am swine...again. So, I am not championing Forge games, I am trying to create a culture, a board where you really can have AndyK talk about his Tensho game, or droog can use a reference to HeroQuest or whatever weird play experience he has without getting pounded. See this thread for an example (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=13661&highlight=Mechanic). We had a pretty good discussion going but it got derailed pretty good.

So, though I think your idea is a good one, I don't know that it would make a difference and this is the important point, IT SHOULDN'T. I am not saying this site should change. Obviously there are a lot of people who are really excited about this place and that is great. I am not. Doesn't mean I hate it or want it closed, just is not the place for me anymore. I am honestly happy you are o.k. with it and hope you continue to try and improve it.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302570A question I ask of Bill, is....what if Pundit signs up for your site, and acts exactly the way he does now? Will he be banned? I'd like to know the answer to that one...

He will be subject to the same rules as others and the same process as anyone. I can't promise he wont be banned. I think if he did come over he would hate it because he would constantly be thinking he was contributing to the "enemy". That is not a good place to be. On the other hand, if he comes over and uses reasoned debate, avoid ad hominem (yeah, there will always be some), I think a lot of the posters would welcome him...and some would not but we have a healthy ignore function. ;)

So, short answer, it would not be up to me but up to Pundit. If he is just there to call people swine, I do not know he would get much response. I think it would be more likely that if he were to show up peddling his swine-hate he would be ignored in short order but I imagine he would not be banned.

QuoteThe point that has been shved frantically ouside the frame is that the pundit could well go register. There is no restriction. There is no rule prohibiting him. He may not wish to because he feel the community would not accept him or that he would not find value for his time by the discussion presented by the culture there. Perfectly reasonable. I would not advise anyone to do otherwise.

And the black guy is technically welcome to join the WASP-dominated country club . . .

What a bunch of tired fucking folderol.  That ploy is no more fucking believable than it is when Andy and his buddies at Storygames were throwing it around back during the last conflict with that site.

You and I both know how well that would fucking go, and how he'd be taken there.  It's bullshit.

Quote from: HinterWelt;302591And let me say, I think the same way. I do not play forge games, Any I have I have not really enjoyed. I used to be a the most trad of trad designers but now, apparently, I am swine...again. So, I am not championing Forge games, I am trying to create a culture, a board where you really can have AndyK talk about his Tensho game, or droog can use a reference to HeroQuest or whatever weird play experience he has without getting pounded. See this thread for an example (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=13661&highlight=Mechanic). We had a pretty good discussion going but it got derailed pretty good.

You are making the assumption here that by not expressing your preference/bias, the board will have no preference/bias.  Which is obviously incorrect.

There is nothing to stop any number of people from signing up and deriding Droog for playing Forge games over there any more than over here.  Nothing prevented him from continuing to post about them over here.  I think Pundit is off his nut about any number of things, and I can say so without having to worry that he is going to boot me for insulting him, or disagreeing with him, or anything like that.  If I keep bringing it up, and everyone else is getting sick of it, he is fully within his rights to get rid of me at that point.

The point is:  I understand if some things are discouraged or people are made to think it is not acceptable to talk about something, but the fact remains.  Droog chose to stop posting about HeroQuest, or what have you.  Mr Skach (and several others) and I would literally not miss a chance to jump each others' shit over various non-rpg topics.  Pundit has said time and time again that non-RPG topics are discouraged, and recently had to take measures to restrict those conversations.  This was not due to Mr Skach, myself or anyone else; it was due largely to the actions of two people.  Nonetheless, up until that time, none of us were prevented from discussing whatever the hell we wanted in any manner we wanted.  We shouted, we threw all manner of insult, we carried on for page after page boring the hell out of everyone that wasn't us.

What this boils down to is, Droog (or whomever) will not be wholly free of detractors just because the RPG Haven won't marginalize his favourite games.  For the sake of argument, let's say I have some cult of personality that is signed up on your forum.  If PosterA says X, Y, and Z are what make CoolForgeGame really good, and I come in to decry X, Y, and Z as preposterous frippery by Prof. Batphallus, whereupon my minions swarm in as well, what is to keep PosterA from simply being overwhelmed by the StormBringer Sabotage Society?  Hell, maybe I am not even overt about it, just mentioning it on another board or by email, and they swoop in.  Maybe PosterA doesn't suffer fools gladly, maybe they don't have the courage of their convictions, maybe they don't like confrontation or don't feel the need to explain themselves every three posts.

Whatever the reason, there are any number that have nothing to do with 'Forge games are marginalized'.

Quote from: StormBringer;302602I am not defending theRPGsite in any way, but you are making the assumption here that by not expressing your preference/bias, the board will have no preference/bias.  Which is obviously incorrect.

Allow me to clarify. I agree. What I meant was that it will not have an agenda based on my views or, if I can help it, Jim's. I am not going to say "All trad games are outdated crap" or "We do not discuss swine games here". The community may swing to professing an ideology, and with argument and discussion, I will try and be as inclusive as possible. I will always try to have a board that encourages discussion of all RPGs (and games for that matter).

Quote from: StormBringer;302602There is nothing to stop any number of people from signing up and deriding Droog for playing Forge games over there any more than over here.  Nothing prevented him from continuing to post about them over here.  I think Pundit is off his nut about any number of things, and I can say so without having to worry that he is going to boot me for insulting him, or disagreeing with him, or anything like that.  If I keep bringing it up, and everyone else is getting sick of it, he is fully within his rights to get rid of me at that point.

Yeah, but again, this is a point of culture. The people I initially invited I did so with purpose. I knew they were open to many games and game styles. That is not an exclusive statement, merely to say, I knew certain people and invited them. This forms the base of the culture. Now, I fully agree, it may spiral off into some sort of hate fest. I will most likely stop posting there then as well and maybe make a new board, with a new strategy, with the hope of getting a certain culture to flourish. I fully admit, it will not be easy but I do think it is a worthy goal.

Quote from: StormBringer;302602The point is:  I understand if some things are discouraged or people are made to think it is not acceptable to talk about something, but the fact remains.  Droog chose to stop posting about HeroQuest, or what have you.  Mr Skach (and several others) and I would literally not miss a chance to jump each others' shit over various non-rpg topics.  Pundit has said time and time again that non-RPG topics are discouraged, and recently had to take measures to restrict those conversations.  This was not due to Mr Skach, myself or anyone else; it was due largely to the actions of two people.  Nonetheless, up until that time, none of us were prevented from discussing whatever the hell we wanted in any manner we wanted.  We shouted, we threw all manner of insult, we carried on for page after page boring the hell out of everyone that wasn't us.

i.e. the culture shifted, the focus of the board was clarified. It is bound to leave some folks behind.

And that description of the thread...sounds familiar. ;)

Quote from: StormBringer;302602What this boils down to is, Droog (or whomever) will not be wholly free of detractors just because the RPG Haven won't marginalize his favourite games.  For the sake of argument, let's say I have some cult of personality that is signed up on your forum.  If PosterA says X, Y, and Z are what make CoolForgeGame really good, and I come in to decry X, Y, and Z as preposterous frippery by Prof. Batphallus, whereupon my minions swarm in as well, what is to keep PosterA from simply being overwhelmed by the StormBringer Sabotage Society?  Hell, maybe I am not even overt about it, just mentioning it on another board or by email, and they swoop in.  Maybe PosterA doesn't suffer fools gladly, maybe they don't have the courage of their convictions, maybe they don't like confrontation or don't feel the need to explain themselves every three posts.

No, he wont. There will be people who detract from his games. There will be discussion. But it will not devolve to "You are swine!" or "You're gay!". I mean, it will, but the culture will, hopefully, not allow the derailing of interesting and useful threads (or crappy ones for that matter). Someone will step up and say, that ain't cool, stop it.

Quote from: StormBringer;302602Whatever the reason, there are any number that have nothing to do with 'Forge games are marginalized'.

The cool thing is, the community will decide, hopefully. I have lost my trust that anything I say here will be viewed as any of the insults you see up thread.

Here is an insight into my reasons. I actually hesitated in telling Pundit that his constitution was out of date and needed to be updated. This was one of those moments, like on RPG.Net where I hesitated to post because I was not sure the origin of gypsy vs roma. It made me realize that I did not fit here any more. Not a "I hate it!11!!" but a kind of, "hmm, I think I will go do something else". So I did. I might add, Pundit was perfectly reasonable. I found it to be a disconcerting issue. Like being lied to but told you are the stupid one for allowing yourself to be lied to.

Now, that is about me and my revelations. I fear, again, SB, you like others take it as some sort of empirical argument against this site. It is not. Too many people have been assigning me my motivations and I have been trying to clear them up. You motivations for posting at the Haven, I am absolutely positive, are radically different from mine. And I am cool with that.

So, in the end, I can tell you why I go to the Haven. I can tell you why I made the site. You have to decide if you want to or not and why you feel it does or does not add worth to your posting.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302570The only major thing I would change about this place is the redirection of all the Forge stuff into the "Other Games" section, or wherever it goes. Pundit, I understand your hatred of it, but it might be best to put it back in the main rpg section, at least as an experiment.

There were three strategic considerations for not including Forge games in the main rpg forum:
1. Forge games (many by their own admittance) are not RPGs. If they want to claim that they are something different (an improvement, according to them), then they shouldn't also have the right to benefit from "RPG" status they so decry.
2. Having Storygame or Forge-Theory talk in the main forum is an invitation to have the place get swamped by Forger propagators trying to push their ideology on people, derailing threads and trying to force people to use and accept their Theory terminology.
3. I didn't want this site to just be an anti-Forger site either. Particularly in the early period of this site's existence, having Forgers showing up to try to push their agenda would also have meant that you'd have anti-forgers responding with vitriol and the whole focus of the site would have been that negative. It is my position that making a site about a "negative" is a recipe for a failed site (witness the countless blogs, forums, etc. that have come up over time to be the anti-pundit place or the anti-rpgsite place, all of which have now disappeared, except this latest one).

QuoteAnyway, I don't think that would happen here. There are certain games that people want to talk about here, but don't, because it's considered inappropriate by "ye Pundit Himself".

If this is the case, I'm quite sorry. I have never actually stopped anyone from starting a thread about any kind of game, as long as its in the right forum.

QuoteI say let people discuss whatever roleplaying games they want. That shit doesn't interest me personally, but if that gives someone else a thrill, why not? We can handle it now. We've grown enough.

I believe "they" can do that here.

RPGPundit

Quote from: HinterWelt;302605The people I initially invited I did so with purpose. I knew they were open to many games and game styles. That is not an exclusive statement, merely to say, I knew certain people and invited them. This forms the base of the culture.

So you do have an agenda that is being demonstrated by those who have been invited to join the Haven.

Quote from: shalvayez;302571I don't actually see you bitching like a lot of these cocksmokers do.
 Second, I'm generally against slurs myself, and hell, I'm for gay marriage, but I'm going to call RPG Haven like it is, and that's basically a backpatting site, basically a daisy chain.
 
 Third, the shill was the bloke who started this thread.. RPG Haven wanted some attention, needed somebody to whore their name around a bit. And now they have their attention. Even negative attention brings people, as I came here based on shit said over on RPGnet.

I don't really believe that they intentionally sent Hairfoot to be a shill. It wouldn't have been good strategy, and I really think he just kind of haplessly stumbled on this. If you have some evidence to the contrary, of course, I'd be interested in seeing it.

I think the real shills here are Hinterwelt and James Skach.  We'll see how that works out for them in the long term.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;3026062. Having Storygame or Forge-Theory talk in the main forum is an invitation to have the place get swamped by Forger propagators trying to push their ideology on people, derailing threads and trying to force people to use and accept their Theory terminology.

RPGPundit

One of the main reasons I liked this site initially was that the Forge viarl marketting machine was ground to a halt here. I am not interested in Forge games or theory, but having both shoved down my throat on almost every other game forum was pretty offensive.

Quote from: jeff37923;302607So you do have an agenda that is being demonstrated by those who have been invited to join the Haven.

I think seeing conspiracies where there are none or perhaps I am not taking your meaning of "agenda" correctly. I have a plan if that is what you mean. I have a goal. I am not an ideologue if that is what you are driving at. The closest I could come to on that point would be to say I am an RPG Agnostic...hmm, that would be a good name for a site.

See, part of a plan is the beginning. I needed to get some folks who shared the goals I had on the site. Some came from here, some from Story Games, some from RPG.Net and EnWorld. Those folks I invited were invited because they were folks that I thought would really add to the site. Folks like Balbinus, and Ian. Seeding a culture.

So, I don't know how you are using the term Agenda. If you mean agenda as in plan then yes. If you mean agenda as it is often colloquially used on the internet as some sort of nefarious plot, then no.

Quote from: J Arcane;302593You and I both know how well that would fucking go, and how he'd be taken there.  It's bullshit.

Probably about as well as Cessna was accepted when he came around here -- embraced by some, hounded by many.  You reap what you sow, right?  That's the message people were sending at the time.

You know, with each expanding page of this thread, I'm reminded of all the derisive comments the members of RPG.net had for this site in its early days.  The parallels are so consistent.  Not that this site was founded to be the anti-RPG.net -- oh, no, not that.

!i!

Quote from: HinterWelt;302605Allow me to clarify.

Fair enough.

QuoteNow, that is about me and my revelations. I fear, again, SB, you like others take it as some sort of empirical argument against this site. It is not. Too many people have been assigning me my motivations and I have been trying to clear them up. You motivations for posting at the Haven, I am absolutely positive, are radically different from mine. And I am cool with that.

Nah, I don't have any real emotional investment either way.  I get to rolling my eyes when Sett goes off on his 'all free speech all the time' nonsense, as though that is the panacea for any problem.  Just pointing out a couple of things to make sure you don't get a mugful of that garbage in your head.

So, in and of itself, I am pretty sure that the degree of content won't get the job done.  Hopefully, you can foster a culture to get you where you want to be; I would like to see that.

Quote from: HinterWelt;302579The point that has been shved frantically ouside the frame is that the pundit could well go register. There is no restriction. There is no rule prohibiting him.

Why should I want to? Considering the following points:
1. The site was explicitly created as a negative response to this site, with the intention of doing "good  moderation" (with my moderation described as the bad kind), where the owner complained of being "Met with derision" by me, and that I am the "base problem" of the RPG site. The creators of the site expressed their need to create the site because they were "tired of certain people", in reference to me.  All this on the FOUNDATIONAL THREAD of that other site.
2. As seen on the "Recruitment" and "cool message boards" threads, the majority of the members of that site are directly interested in trying to poach members on this site, with the natural expectation being that this will empty this site of its "better" membership and thus theRPGsite will be destroyed. Why would I join a site who's expressed interest (of its membership, and overtly of its founders) is the destruction of the site I have built up over the course of years?
3. Apart from the anti-Pundit anti-RPGsite mentality there is NOTHING there that is different from here, nothing that site offers that theRPGsite does not except "the absence of Pundit".  I suppose my joining there would help screw up that raison d'etre of yours, but I would think that'd be somewhat fruitless, since it would just be an invitation for people to dogpile on me with moderator approval, and for them to eventually ban me as some kind of "proof" that I'm the bad guy.
4. All your better discussion threads are here. I don't need to go there to discuss them. There's nothing said there that can't be said here, and will continue to be said here.

QuoteSecond, inside the frame is that somehow the Haven is dedicated to "Destroying theRPGSite". This is false. Shoved outside the frame is that I nor Jim have ever said we would "destroy" this site. In fact, pundit has said he is actively scooping threads from the Haven to "And then they have the gall to get all upset because I'm doing what needs to be done to make sure their site can never be about anything BUT "theRPGsite without the Pundit"?". For the record, I could care less about such things however it bothered some posters OF BOTH SITES. Now, how does the admin of this site respond? Threats, ad hominem and hatred. Not surprising.

You haven't denied poaching members. You haven't been able to make a coherent response besides "no we didn't" to the accusations of your anti-pundit origins. Shit, you have barely been able to contain your hate enough to make a single post in this thread that didn't include some kind of cheap shot or tacit insult about me or this site.
And worst of all, in my eyes, you still try to shamelessly deny it. You try to pretend that you don't hate me, that its not about that.
We both know what its about, Bill. You still feel all hurt that I made fun of your game, with its historically-stupid premise and its bad latin.

QuoteFinally, part of the framing is on content. In reference to his admitted copying of threads, we obviously are generating contnet and thread ideas beyond what RPGSite is...else there would be no need for copying the threads.

No, you are generating threads that belong on theRPGsite, so I'm including them here. If a thread was really BEYOND theRPGsite, in the sense that it somehow offered something that theRPGsite does not and could not, or would not because any meaningful difference between this site's focus and yours, then I would obviously not be able to take inspiration from those threads to put them on here.
The fact that I have been able to with pretty well any thread of yours that didn't directly involve a Forge game (and I could have put those in the Other Games section too, were I so inclined) only PROVES that your site is nothing but a Clone, with no meaningful difference in style or substance other than being anti-Pundit (and like I said, even that isn't particularly novel compared to here, where many people have had long careers of being anti-Pundit without any real penalty, yourself and 90% of your site's members included).

QuoteI trust most of you will see what he is doing here, defining the field so he can "win". Hopefully you will be able to move past that and decide for yourselves.

Bill, Bill, Bill... I'm not some cartoon supervillain here. I'm not revealing my dastardly plan so you can defeat me. I've already won. I won the moment you and James started posting on this thread. And I didn't have to do very much work for it either, you and James and Ian and Droog and pretty much your whole gang are doing all the heavy lifting for me, proving my point, because my point is true.

So you are left with nothing but bitching about how much you dislike me while trying to carry placards claiming "its not about Pundit".

QuoteNow, I would like to expand the explanation of the Haven. In otherwords, take the discussion to beyond theRPGSite as folks seem to be buying into strongly worded opinion as fact. Let's look at RPG.Net as one of the motivations for me.

I have posted there as HinterWelt for 7 years (before that for a year or so under a different handle). I have seen the days when moderators could not ban users, the board did not support it at the time, and had to ask the admins. I have seen when tech advancement allowed the mods to ban folks and they were like kids with new toy. I have seen how the moderation has come to a "kinder, gentler" level (although I would argue that i would say
"different kind of"). I learned a lot about what I wanted on that board. The biggest four things I took away from that was:
1. I like low moderation but not no moderation. 4 Chan is not for me.
2. I like general discussion where all games can be in play, whether it is a reference to monopoly or 4e.
3. I like a search function.
4. Rate of turn over, especially without a search function, is not fun at RPG.Net.

To that end I have gone to great pains to have functioning search, low moderation (despite claims elsewhere in this thread, no bannings and no topic bans have occurred) and how important culture is to my enjoyment of a board.

One could say that my coming here was a reaction to RPG.Net and this ultimately, the Haven is my reaction to RPG.net and not this place. They would be just as wrong as those that say that the Haven is nothing more than a reaction to this place.

You say all that, and yet there is 20 times more discussion about me on your site than about RPG.net. And you invited Cessna, seen by many as the Face of RPG.net, to come to your site and share his wisdom as a "successful RPG forum moderator" along with the mods from Storygames and ENWorld, explicitly exempting only this site's moderator, ie. me. Even though my site has been vastly more successful than Storygames.

So please, to try this late in the game to change track and try to pretend that you're an anti-RPG.net site is pretty fucking stupid.  Not to mention that this wouldn't make you any better if you were.

The fact is that the vast majority of your membership, and pretty much all those you recruited, apart from those "Learned Elders" like Cessna and AndyK who's good examples of authoritarianism you wish to learn from and imitate, have been poached from THIS site and not others.  So even if we were to ignore the overwhelming evidence from your own origins-thread and pretend that it wasn't something personal for you, of wanting to take me down a notch because I made fun of your Roman Druids, your site would still de facto be an anti-RPGsite forum. Whether you like it or not (and we both know the only thing you don't like about it is that its been exposed as such), that's what it has become.

QuoteNow, I am not preferring an either or condition to people here or at the Haven. Join whatever forums you wish, post as you like. I do not define a "polis" of people who count.

Oh yes you do. They're the ones you recruited.

QuoteIf you post over at the Haven (or even you don't) I will listen to criticisms and try to make it better. I will not try to evoke some sort of patriotism to "Our Board!!". I merely welcome you to take a look. We do not have any hidden forums, no secret adminning forum.

Bully for you. It doesn't stop you from being slightly more "fascist" than many of your members have accused me of being in my moderation, except that since its not me doing the moderating I guess that doesn't bother them anymore, huh? So much for standing up for "free speech". Their true motives were revealed now more than ever as standing up to "get" me.

QuoteWhat you see is what you get and if you do not like it, I can appreciate that. After all, it is why I made the Haven;i.e. there were no sites I liked.

And yet you've made it almost IDENTICAL to theRPGsite, with that one tiny exception of me not running it. How curious...

And you still claim its not an anti-pundit forum? Curiouser and curiouser...

RPGPundit

Quote from: shalvayez;302582I'll chill. I'll lay off a bit. The avatar stays, your request is ridiculous.

To be honest, shalvayez, I'm not a big fan of your avatar either. I removed Droog's avatar forcibly because he had a flattering portrait of Hitler on his; yours is of a nazi zombie which is quite a different degree, so I would not force you to remove it, but I will express that I think its too easy to misinterpret, and you might want to consider that.

RPGPundit

Quote from: HinterWelt;302591And let me say, I think the same way. I do not play forge games, Any I have I have not really enjoyed. I used to be a the most trad of trad designers but now, apparently, I am swine...again. So, I am not championing Forge games, I am trying to create a culture, a board where you really can have AndyK talk about his Tensho game, or droog can use a reference to HeroQuest or whatever weird play experience he has without getting pounded. See this thread for an example (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=13661&highlight=Mechanic). We had a pretty good discussion going but it got derailed pretty good.

Really? You're using THAT thread, the one that you intentionally started as a way to "instigate" (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=288768&postcount=30) because you were pissed off as me, as part of your overall argument that starting your forum was NOT a reaction to being pissed off at me? BWAH HAHAHAHA!!

Jesus Christ, its like I don't have to lift a finger!

RPGPundit

Quote from: Ian Absentia;302613Probably about as well as Cessna was accepted when he came around here -- embraced by some, hounded by many.  You reap what you sow, right?  That's the message people were sending at the time.

You know, with each expanding page of this thread, I'm reminded of all the derisive comments the members of RPG.net had for this site in its early days.  The parallels are so consistent.  Not that this site was founded to be the anti-RPG.net -- oh, no, not that.

!i!

Ian, I so am tempted to just quote you for the simple version of what I mean.

Thanks for being you.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;302613Probably about as well as Cessna was accepted when he came around here -- embraced by some, hounded by many.  You reap what you sow, right?  That's the message people were sending at the time.

You know, with each expanding page of this thread, I'm reminded of all the derisive comments the members of RPG.net had for this site in its early days.  The parallels are so consistent.  Not that this site was founded to be the anti-RPG.net -- oh, no, not that.

!i!

The difference is that this site, from day one of my being in charge, was actually different from RPG.net. It offered things that RPG.net did not. It wasn't just the same site but with different people in charge.

RPGPundit

Quote from: HinterWelt;302620Ian, I so am tempted to just quote you for the simple version of what I mean.

I think you just did.

!i!

Quote from: RPGPundit;302621It wasn't just the same site but with different people in charge.

You mean not like what you're doing now by copying topics from RPG.net, EN World, and The RPG Haven.  Yeah, you did have a different kind of agenda back then.

Of course, a lot of your agenda was to be the "anti-RPG.net" once you got punted.  Let's not mince words here -- much of your motivation for remodeling this website was, and remains, spite.

Hey, that ought to be your new handle: RPGnetPunted.*

!i!

[*Cheap shot.  That should have been your original handle here.]

His avatar is a Nazi Zombie?
(Was referring to Shalayez's old avatar.....)

 A-ha!

I knew it was something or someone in a Nazi uniform. (yes it is a tad creepy)

My computer's monitor is dying a slow death, as a result most images and pictures are gradually getting darker over the past year as I view them.
I only know this because I sometimes view the forums from a spare terminal work or at my parents place when I visit them.

Heck, most of the avatars don't read that well on a screen that is on darker display than it should be.

- Ed C.

I like pie!

C'mon, Ed.  Context!

!i!

Let it be noted that shalvayez's avatar is now officially cool (the brain in a jar).

Quote from: RPGPundit;302616To be honest, shalvayez, I'm not a big fan of your avatar either. I removed Droog's avatar forcibly because he had a flattering portrait of Hitler on his; yours is of a nazi zombie which is quite a different degree, so I would not force you to remove it, but I will express that I think its too easy to misinterpret, and you might want to consider that.

RPGPundit

 Some of the point I have been trying to make is, Pundit takes an awful amount of abuse for his modding style, on a PRIVATE forum that he could, should he want, just literally OUST all the douchebags that make it toxic, myself included.
 My avatar was from Dead Snow, the Norwegian nazi zombie flick, and more or less was a statement about some of the SHEEP that infest RPGsite. Avatar changed, but I'm not sure you're gonna like the new one either. It's another statement. Ultimately, Pundit, you would have been RIGHT to tell me, "Change your fucking avatar, or find somewhere else to read about RPGs."

Quote from: Ian Absentia;302623You mean not like what you're doing now by copying topics from RPG.net, EN World, and The RPG Haven.  Yeah, you did have a different kind of agenda back then.

Of course, a lot of your agenda was to be the "anti-RPG.net" once you got punted.  Let's not mince words here -- much of your motivation for remodeling this website was, and remains, spite.

Hey, that ought to be your new handle: RPGnetPunted.*

!i!

[*Cheap shot.  That should have been your original handle here.]

This site was started in part as a reaction to the authoritarian and cliqueish moderation policies of RPG.net.
It wasn't started as an "I Hate Cessna" site.

Most importantly, its orientation differed from that of RPG.net in significant ways: we were DIFFERENT.
We didn't have a Tangency, we do have free speech, you could talk about games, you didn't have to worry about being banned for saying something politically incorrect.
We had the official Amber forum, and we didn't have Forge-propagators running amok without limits to what they could say while other posters were limited in how they could criticize them.

In very concrete ways, the overall experience a member of theRPGsite got was very different from the overall experience of being a member of RPG.net.
You cannot same the same for Hinterwelt's site, where the only significant difference is that I am not there.

RPGPundit

Nah, the brain in a jar is pretty awesome. I got that the "statement" you were making with the old avatar wasn't "I am a real fan of the Nazis", but what your statement actually DID consist of was not very clear, so for that alone your old choice wasn't really a good one, since it could be misinterpreted.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Ian Absentia;302613Probably about as well as Cessna was accepted when he came around here -- embraced by some, hounded by many.  You reap what you sow, right?  That's the message people were sending at the time.

You know, with each expanding page of this thread, I'm reminded of all the derisive comments the members of RPG.net had for this site in its early days.  The parallels are so consistent.  Not that this site was founded to be the anti-RPG.net -- oh, no, not that.

!i!

Look, I know you're obviously really determined here to paint me and everyone else here as some awful fucking hypocrite, but could you please just cut it the fuck out already?

You know what?  If I'd learned about this forum of yours a while back, I probably would've at least checked it out for a bit, just as I did Jame's original site, and I even poked my head into that Blue Devil cunt's site.  There seems to be at least a few people I like (you would be one of them even), and it'd be nice to see them post stuff again since they apparently couldn't accept that there are parts about this site one has to ignore sometimes, just like any site, among them it's creator.  But that's fine.

But this fucking condescending, weaselly bullshit from Bill and the rest just turns me right the fuck off.  It makes it abundantly clear that I should not expect anything different, just with different bugaboos.  And it makes me rather disgusted with the idea of being involved with a site so willing to blanket insult a group that happens to include myself.  

I don't like liars.  I don't like PR wonks.  I don't like diplomats.  And I don't like being fucking condescended to.  And that's pretty much what I'm hearing a hell of a lot in this fucking thread, and I'm disappointed you folks have apparently developed a Ron Edwards like blindness to how your words will be taken.

And when you add on to the fact that, yeah, I really don't fucking like the Forge, and don't have the slightest interest in any place where such insulting and offensive tripe is given the open air, then no, I'm not fucking interested.  Unlike some folks who joined this site my motivations were never "free speech uber alles", though the moderation was certainly refreshing and more in line with other sites I frequented at the time.

Just because the balance of decision came down against this latest "new, better site" when it hasn't in the past doesn't make me a fucking hypocrite.

So fucking stuff it.

Quote from: J Arcane;302635Look, I know you're obviously really determined here to paint me and everyone else here as some awful fucking hypocrite, but could you please just cut it the fuck out already?

Yes, my sentiment exactly. Kind of sucks when folks do that.

Quote from: RPGPundit;302633It wasn't started as an "I Hate Cessna" site.

And yet that was much of the appeal to many who came here.  Hell, that's part of the reason I came here.  And much as you may have tried to play that facet down, there were people gladly lining up to say so every time someone from RPG.net raised the topic.  Sound familiar?  I don't know if this hurts you, or if it just irritates you, but what goes around comes around -- you've become what you rejected.

By the way, for what it's worth, this is how I (almost) like you -- clear, cogent, opinionated, and reasonable, without all that attack-dog, rhetorical horseshit in the way.  I appreciate it.

!i!

Quote from: J Arcane;302635I don't like...  
I don't like...  
I don't like...  
And I don't like...
...and I'm disappointed...
...I really don't fucking like...

Yeah, yeah. I've figured that out over the last couple of years.  Be sure to drop me a line when you come up with something you do like.

!i!

Quote from: Ian Absentia;302647Yeah, yeah. I've figured that out over the last couple of years.  Be sure to drop me a line when you come up with something you do like.

!i!

You know what?  

Go fuck yourself.

Quote from: J Arcane;302660You know what?  

Go fuck yourself.

 And don't videotape it either, people generally aren't into midget porn.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;302645And yet that was much of the appeal to many who came here.  Hell, that's part of the reason I came here.  And much as you may have tried to play that facet down, there were people gladly lining up to say so every time someone from RPG.net raised the topic.  Sound familiar?  

Yes. In the beginning, people got all butthurt about rpgnet, Pundit among them. What do you expect? Sometimes, people need to vent....and here, they could actually do it without fears of reprisal. But you know what? Therpgsite eventually got over it, and just moved on.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI don't know if this hurts you, or if it just irritates you, but what goes around comes around -- you've become what you rejected.

No. Pundit is right that this place has always been different from rpgnet. therpgsite is not "the Tangency Show", and frankly, that changes everything. Furthermore, we don't have to suck up to mods around here, nor do we have to engage in endless passive-aggressiveness in order to technically skirt a rule on personal attacks. People fight, and then they move on. Game over.

This is a very different place from rpgnet. But therpghaven, on the other hand, feels mostly like a watered-down version of this place.....at least for now. But like I said before, that can easily change...

Quote from: HinterWelt;302516This is a great example of what I mean. Not a shred of rational argument just ad hominem.

Whereas,

Quote from: HinterWeltThis site is based on hate.

is logical analysis of empirical data presented in argumentative essay form with references?

Come on, Bill, this is a conversation. None of us are being brilliant debaters here. It's just about whether you're presenting your honest opinions, or being a bit of a prick.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302664No. Pundit is right that this place has always been different from rpgnet. therpgsite is not "the Tangency Show", and frankly, that changes everything. Furthermore, we don't have to suck up to mods around here, nor do we have to engage in endless passive-aggressiveness in order to technically skirt a rule on personal attacks. People fight, and then they move on. Game over.

This is a very different place from rpgnet. But therpghaven, on the other hand, feels mostly like a watered-down version of this place.....at least for now. But like I said before, that can easily change...

You got that right, Sac lamb.

Pundit has really done his best to steer this place away from being Tangency-like  - often times with the gentle (sometimes NOT so gentle) nudging of the members on here.

As I've said before, Pundit can sometimes be an asshole - but he's often a very fair and reasonable asshole at the same time.

- Ed C.

Quote from: RPGPundit;302609I don't really believe that they intentionally sent Hairfoot to be a shill. It wouldn't have been good strategy, and I really think he just kind of haplessly stumbled on this.

Quite.

As I mentioned in the OP, I've been purposely searching for new boards to frequent - hopefully boards where endorsement of 4E isn't the de facto administration policy.

I joined theRPGsite on 18/4, after Google brought up the 4E criticism thread, and RPGHAven 2 days later.  I was actually invited to visit Haven via a PM on RPGnet after a run-in with the adolescent lynch mob there, but that's as close to a conspiracy-to-shill as it gets.

A couple of posts at the Haven wryly commented on the frequency of thread topic "borrowing", and I posted the OP here, more in mock horror than anything.  I had no idea I was walking blindly into a longstanding and acrimonious board-war.

If this were another shitty little one-eyed fan site, I'd expect threads to be pinched and wouldn't have signed up.  But it isn't, so I didn't and I did.

I will engage in partisan boosterism on only two topics: Swords & Wizardry, and Basic Fantasy RPG, because they're awesome.

If we relate this whole thing to RPGnet/ENWorld, I think the Lamb got it right, albeit with his own preferences involved. The RPGsite is the site where I may argue, fight, get down in the ditch, and then move on (it does have its own merits. Sometimes a sledgehammer is better than a blowhorn). The RPGHaven is the place where it's a consensus to behave and YET, where I do not have to deal with the shitty clique-moderation of RPGnet or ENWorld.

Quote from: J Arcane;302660You know what?  

Go fuck yourself.

A sterling rejoinder, old chap.  Tell me again, why is it you come around here?

!i!

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;302056Edit: I'm not banned from there, you cocksmock. Stop trying to stir cross-board shit.

I'm sorry, I meant WalkerP. And his banning here was what I was talking about...Kyle A, Walker P...my mistake, not trying to start rumors.

However, I'm not eally trying to stir shit, I'm just offering my honest opinion here. RpgHaven is a reactionary creation to theRPGsite. It offers me no reason to bother with registering and posting there.

Quote from: TGGYou say that "thre is nothing that you can find at the Haven that you cant find here. There is nothing that you can find here that you cant find on rpg.net, enworld or any other rpg site.

...

There is nothing wrong with multiple forums

Koltar, Pundit and a wild west "shut the fuck up douchebag" attitude aren't really available anywhere ese. They're both general RPG boards but nobody at the rpgsite was "recruited."Reminds me of high school drama "cool kids club" bullshit.

Also, there is something wrong with multiple forums: It's fucking inconvenient. It's time consuming and confusing for me (as already evidenced above where I confused Kyle Aaron and WalkerP). Everybody (except WalkerP) there could post here and the haven offers NOTHING but a Punditless forum.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;302691A sterling rejoinder, old chap.  Tell me again, why is it you come around here?

!i!

Exactly what the fuck is that question supposed to mean, hmm?

Quote from: Hairfoot;302683I will engage in partisan boosterism on only two topics: Swords & Wizardry, and Basic Fantasy RPG, because they're awesome.

Boost away.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;302606If this is the case, I'm quite sorry. I have never actually stopped anyone from starting a thread about any kind of game, as long as its in the right forum.

This is absolutely true.

Point is, I don't see any good in the "If I post here, I won't post there" perspective. And I disagree with Pundit when he says that any conversation in other board can be had here and be the same: that never happens.

As an example, I cross-posted a thread here an in RPG.net about possible choices of Basic D&D Modules for a sandbox campaign I'm thinking. Even having some persons popping in both threads to give their opinions, the thread were different, and the results better for that.

As it happens with games, it happens with fora: variety is good, the more the better. I post here because I enjoy things the way they are here, as in RPG.net, probably the Haven and other boards. The interboards wars areprtty asinine.

Quote from: KrakaJak;302695RpgHaven is a reactionary creation to theRPGsite. It offers me no reason to bother with registering and posting there.

I am not sure what your point is.  TheRPGsite was a reactionary creation to the rpg.net after The RPGPundit was kicked off of there as a place without the "Mod Abuse" that was going on there.  Your point?

Quote from: KrakaJak;302695Koltar, Pundit and a wild west "shut the fuck up douchebag" attitude aren't really available anywhere ese. They're both general RPG boards but nobody at the rpgsite was "recruited."Reminds me of high school drama "cool kids club" bullshit.

I guess if you like that sort of thing.  I see a forum that contains a bunch of  people (not everyone mind you) who dont know how to treat people who were kicked off other boards.   they are now here treating eachother they way they treated others on the forums they got kicked off of.  

Quote from: KrakaJak;302695Also, there is something wrong with multiple forums: It's fucking inconvenient. It's time consuming and confusing for me (as already evidenced above where I confused Kyle Aaron and WalkerP). Everybody (except WalkerP) there could post here and the haven offers NOTHING but a Punditless forum.

Not true, the other forum could have discussions that arent found here.   Besides, as I said before there is nothing being posted here that I cant find on rpg.net, enworld or anywhere else.

So you can say the same thing about TheRPGSite (or you could direct that comment to any forum on the internet)

Quote from: The Game Guy;302744TheRPGsite was a reactionary creation to the rpg.net after The RPGPundit was kicked off of there as a place without the "Mod Abuse" that was going on there.

You do realize that theRPGsite was created years after Pundit was banned from RPGnet, right?

Quote from: JongWK;302745You do realize that theRPGsite was created years after Pundit was banned from RPGnet, right?

Regardless of the time span between the two, he has said that he wanted to create a forum without the mod abuse found on rpg.net

It may not have been as fast as a reaction as The RPG Haven but its exactly the same.

As for The Haven, I have registered but there isnt really much for me there.  I may visit back there in a month or two but as it is I am trying to limit the time I spend on message boards.

If I didnt have a thread going on rpg.net I wouldnt even bother going there anymore

Again, the important point is that theRPGsite offers something DIFFERENT from RPG.net without just being "RPG.net Clone with Pundit In Charge Instead of Modclique and an Anti-RPG.net focus".

The other site does not, it is an RPGsite clone; even its pundit-hate isn't something you can't get here.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;302812Again, the important point is that theRPGsite offers something DIFFERENT from RPG.net without just being "RPG.net Clone with Pundit In Charge Instead of Modclique and an Anti-RPG.net focus".

The other site does not, it is an RPGsite clone; even its pundit-hate isn't something you can't get here.

RPGPundit

 Actually the Pundit-hate, and every other type of hate on the boards is rather pathetic. you either like a system or hate it, but to wage a war of words concerning likes/dislikes of various systems of games w/in a shrinking, fairly insignificant hobby is worthy of derision. I hate Rifts, I'll make comments about it, but that's not a reflection of the people who enjoy it.
 
Disarm the pocket protectors, boys,  play your games, discuss them and have fun!  I happen to like Pundit's Mod style and his blunt honesty. I like the fact that I can call a wanker, a wanker. Would I run this site the same way? Nope, I'd be bitchslapping some nerds. But that's MY style of modding, due to the fact that I'm easily annoyed. it's a fucking RPG forum, for crying out loud.
 
 it's not like the rest of the world cares about our pathetic, dying little hobby.
 
 And you see in different threads, the derision people of different shades of life get here by certain cocksuckers. Way to grow interest in the hobby. Had I been somebody that was new to hobby, I would have told a lot of you to piss off and found something else to do.
 
 You'd be astounded by the sheer number of punks who like to play RPGS, and yet, I meet derision for not dressing like a suit. Fuck that noise.
 
 Punks who play RPGS, are punks who aren't breaking your stuff. Think of it that way.
 
 But then again, a lot of you don't have the foresight to say, "we don't want the hobby to die, we need to stop being exclusionary."
 
 I'm going to make a little bit of noise here, leave my yahoo to whomever is interested, and say adios.  Pundit, I wish ya luck, mate.
 
screachvox@yahoo.com

Quote from: shalvayez;302826Actually the Pundit-hate, and every other type of hate on the boards is rather pathetic.
 you either like a system or hate it, but to wage a war of words concerning likes/dislikes of various systems of games w/in a shrinking, fairly insignificant hobby is worthy of derision.

You mean like the hate of the Swine?
Seems to me it's a rather focused board in this regard. It's not judgmental on my part, just a fact I'm stating.

First the Mods now the Punks....Noooo

Regards,
David R

Bell boy!

While the ballet of copycat threads between theRPGsite and the Haven (http://www.therpghaven.com/index.php) goes on, one can, by the way, witness the vindication of the idea that, even with some of the same people between sites, similar threads will evolve in completely different ways between sites, and that reinforces my belief that this whole thing is not about "theRPGsite without the Pundit" or not, but rather about a different set of circumstances altogether.

This is a reason to rejoice in the proliferation of offshoot sites rather than poopooing the idea.

Both sites bring the best out of people in very, very different ways, and I think it's only appropriate.
Long live both theRPGsite and the RPG Haven.

Quote from: Benoist;302928...that reinforces my belief that this whole thing is not about "theRPGsite without the Pundit" or not, but rather about a different set of circumstances altogether.

This is a reason to rejoice in the proliferation of offshoot sites rather than poopooing the idea.

Stop being reasonable, you filthy peacemaker.

QuoteBoth sites bring the best out of people in very, very different ways, and I think it's only appropriate.

Yeah, but my team is still better than your team. :p

!i!

Well, now that we've sorted all that out, I think we should definitely do something about the weasels up at Toad Hall.

I just had my first thread (http://www.therpghaven.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=305) stolen by RPGPundit (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=14213)!

I have such a feeling of belonging now.

Quote from: Hairfoot;302957I just had my first thread (http://www.therpghaven.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=305) stolen by RPGPundit (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=14213)!

Now, if he'd stolen the "Pundit the Plagiariser" thread, that would've been a real coup.

!i!

(P.S. I'm keeping my eye out for a stolen thread that I can steal back in such a manner that it doesn't duplicate the original thread, thus completing an iterative circle.)

Quote from: Hairfoot;302957I just had my first thread (http://www.therpghaven.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=305) stolen by RPGPundit (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=14213)!

I have such a feeling of belonging now.

Now let me say that I think my OP is crafted better as an OP than yours, but it wouldn't have been necessary at all if you'd posted your thread here as well as/instead of there.

RPGPundit

Quote from: KrakaJak;302695.................
Koltar, Pundit and a wild west "shut the fuck up douchebag" attitude aren't really available anywhere ese. They're both general RPG boards but nobody at the rpgsite was "recruited."Reminds me of high school drama "cool kids club" bullshit. ..................

What?

 Wait ....uh huh , imteresting and What the____?

 I am thought of as part or the site or some kind of featured player?

 Somehow that feels both oddly disturbing and quite good at the same time.

- Ed C.

Quote from: RPGPundit;302995Now let me say that I think my OP is crafted better as an OP than yours, but it wouldn't have been necessary at all if you'd posted your thread here as well as/instead of there

Cross-posting is good for the online RPG community, but how about some attribution?  When you take something from ENworld, RPGnet, RPG Haven, or any other RP forum, why not declare that you're repeating a post from another board, rather than post it as your own?

As for well-crafted posts, I'll call your subjectivity and raise you an RPGpundit post (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=14215&page=3) replete with poor grammar and a misunderstanding of what "crapulence" means.

And this is where the plagiarism issue comes together.  How can I be sure that you wrote that?  You've got a solid record of pinching other people's ideas, so why we should credit you for anything you write, when it may have come verbatim from another board?

You seem to regard threads on other sites as somehow illegitimate or heretical, but I'm not part of the theRPGsite vs RPG Haven feud.  I'll post wherever I am when a thread topic occurs to me.

So repost my threads, by all means, but next time have the integrity to say you got it from someone else.

I'll start to recognize posts inspired by the other site when that site starts to recognize that their entire forum was "inspired" by theRPGsite. If they've essentially plagiarized my entire forum, then there's really little reason for me to need to give any credit to anything on there.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;303071I'll start to recognize posts inspired by the other site when that site starts to recognize that their entire forum was "inspired" by theRPGsite. If they've essentially plagiarized my entire forum, then there's really little reason for me to need to give any credit to anything on there.

RPGPundit

The last time I ran into someone as paranoind,as full of shit, and as fake as The RPG Pundit  was the last time I had a crackhead ask me to give them some money for gas.

The gaming community may have turned out better had you stayed under your rock but people love train wrecks so here we are.

Quote from: Koltar;302997What?

 Wait ....uh huh , imteresting and What the____?

 I am thought of as part or the site or some kind of featured player?

 Somehow that feels both oddly disturbing and quite good at the same time.

- Ed C.

Don't get too excited there. I'm not stalking you and I'm not putting out.


At least not on the first date...

People, just a question. I AM trying to check out the haven, but I'm getting a 403. Is it invitation-only?

On-topic:

...no, I better don't.

But the punks... ohmigawd that guy has such a weird idea of what being a punk is... no god nor master, but sucking up to the pundit like that... oh, man. Brain-in-a-jar just cracks me up, I'm sorry.

Nope, it's not invite only, but they've been having trouble with DoS attacks and it's possible either those or the defenses could be affecting your access.

Uh... OK. I don't feel that bad, then. Thanks.

Maybe they're trying to IP-ban you, Sunboy, as a precautionary measure because they're not at all worried about and/or obsessed with you.

RPGPundit

Dude, actually the first thing that crossed my mind was that maybe they have tried to ban you and had to ban the entire country... or some shit. So you actually can't, either? Man... I was actually interested.

Quote from: RPGPundit;303391Maybe they're trying to IP-ban you, Sunboy, as a precautionary measure because they're not at all worried about and/or obsessed with you.

Have you actually tried to register, Pundit?

Quote from: SunBoy;303502Dude, actually the first thing that crossed my mind was that maybe they have tried to ban you and had to ban the entire country... or some shit. So you actually can't, either? Man... I was actually interested.

Well, let's not be hasty now, remember, its "not about the RPGPundit!"
Perhaps its really Jong they wanted to IP-ban, since its not about me, maybe its Jong that they think about on a nearly constant basis and obsess over? Maybe he's the one they're so threatened by that they had to ban an entire country of 3 million people to (foolishly) try to stop?

I mean we KNOW it can't be me, right? Because they've said over and over (and over) again that its "Not about" me.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Benoist;303510Have you actually tried to register, Pundit?

It'd be pretty hard to register on a site where you go to the front page and get this:

QuoteAccess forbidden!

You don't have permission to access the requested directory. There is either no index document or the directory is read-protected.

If you think this is a server error, please contact the webmaster.
Error 403

And apparently everyone else in Uruguay gets that too...


But its not an anti-Pundit site, and they're neither worried nor afraid of me, right dude?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;303537It'd be pretty hard to register on a site where you go to the front page and get this:

And apparently everyone else in Uruguay gets that too...

But its not an anti-Pundit site, and they're neither worried nor afraid of me, right dude?

RPGPundit

I'm going to ask on that website. Hold on.

I doubt that they've IP banned anyone for personal reasons although you may disagree. However, it's quite plausible that they accidentally banned (large swathes of the IP space of) certain South American countries, because that's where some of the attacks were coming from. (Brazil was named.)

Yup, according to the admins it's the DoS attack from Russia, Brazil and China. It's an unfortunate coincidence.

OK. Cool then. Just for the record, I was really asking. Hope it goes away soon, and good luck with the servers.

I see the ballet of copycat threads started again.

Quote from: Benoist;303858I see the ballet of copycat threads started again.

Yeah, why did Droog steal mine?

???????

For fuck's sake.

Quote from: jeff37923;303898Yeah, why did Droog steal mine?

I'm not saying it's a one way street.

So....I browsed that other forum without registering yet.

I'm kind of glad that some of those topics are being re-posted here.
Gives me a chance to read them or mull them over.

The color combination or layout over there actually hurts my eyes as I browse it. Thats not meant as a put-down, I hnestly had pysical strss in my eyes trying to focus while reading threads over there.

Maybe its the amount of white screen or white space or how the contrast is adjusted on my screen - I don't lnow. (I'm also having minor trouble viewing the SJG forums on some days)

This forum, TheRPGSite is still a comfortable view for me right now - no eye stress while viewing the seperate sections and the color comibination is just mellow enough not to to do that bio-organic version of 'lens-flare' that I get from websites. (MySpace? MANY of those people need to junk those annoying background colors)


-Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;304409So....I browsed that other forum without registering yet.

I'm kind of glad that some of those topics are being re-posted here.
Gives me a chance to read them or mull them over.

The color combination or layout over there actually hurts my eyes as I browse it. Thats not meant as a put-down, I hnestly had pysical strss in my eyes trying to focus while reading threads over there.

Maybe its the amount of white screen or white space or how the contrast is adjusted on my screen - I don't lnow. (I'm also having minor trouble viewing the SJG forums on some days)

This forum, TheRPGSite is still a comfortable view for me right now - no eye stress while viewing the seperate sections and the color comibination is just mellow enough not to to do that bio-organic version of 'lens-flare' that I get from websites. (MySpace? MANY of those people need to junk those annoying background colors)


-Ed C.

Ed, I had the exact same experience as you. Something about the way therpghaven is designed hurts my eyes or hurts my brain. It's the main thing keeping me from contributing there. Conversely, therpgsite has a great layout, and I feel no mental strain at all here. I hope they fix it, because things look interesting there, but the colors and layout are too much of a strain for me to bother. :(

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;304759Ed, I had the exact same experience as you. Something about the way therpghaven is designed hurts my eyes or hurts my brain. It's the main thing keeping me from contributing there. Conversely, therpgsite has a great layout, and I feel no mental strain at all here.

Me too.  Is the background here stark white, or beige?

Its got a different default color scheme now. If your a member you can change the board settings to your liking.

Quote from: Hairfoot;304979Me too.  Is the background here stark white, or beige?

The background here on therpgsite looks like an "off-white". It's darker than white.

Conversely, I wonder if the color combo of orange and green on therpghaven is what's throwing me off, or if it's just the overall layout. It's hard to pinpoint the exact problem with their design, but whatever it is, it's a subtle visual anomaly that's messing with my brain.

The regulars still keep posting there, so they must be fine with the site design. Maybe we're just crazy in the head? :o

For your information: I opened up an English language channel on my forum, that is utterly devoted to free speech in RPGs debates. Feel free to join us!

http://hofrat.rollenspiel-berlin.de/Forum/index.php?board=18.0

Pundit, please let me know the ways you think are acceptable of advertising the venue at theRPGsite. I hope I don´t have to explain why I do this.

Not very observant, are you? Just go to the News & Adverts (http://www.therpgsite.com/forumdisplay.php?f=38) subforum.

Thank you!
Anyway, it would be nice to know how much pointing out another message boards in discussions here is eligible.

Quote from: Settembrini;308414For your information: I opened up an English language channel on my forum, that is utterly devoted to free speech in RPGs debates. Feel free to join us!

http://hofrat.rollenspiel-berlin.de/Forum/index.php?board=18.0

Pundit, please let me know the ways you think are acceptable of advertising the venue at theRPGsite. I hope I don´t have to explain why I do this.

First, Sett, it would probably be wise if a forum totally dedicated to FREE SPEECH! with a capital-everything weren't members-only to read. There's something ironic about that...

Second, you can advertise in the news/adverts forum. You could also buy space for a banner ad if you wanted! Good luck with your forum.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;308603First, Sett, it would probably be wise if a forum totally dedicated to FREE SPEECH! with a capital-everything weren't members-only to read. There's something ironic about that...

Second, you can advertise in the news/adverts forum. You could also buy space for a banner ad if you wanted! Good luck with your forum.

RPGPundit

Yes, there´s some technical issue I haven´t figured out right now...actually even unregistered guest should be able to post.

EDIT: NOW it´s working!

EDIT: Praytell, what do you charge for a banner? Was it $30 per month or per year?

Quote from: Settembrini;308610Yes, there´s some technical issue I haven´t figured out right now...actually even unregistered guest should be able to post.

EDIT: NOW it´s working!

EDIT: Praytell, what do you charge for a banner? Was it $30 per month or per year?

$30 per month or $150 for six months.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;308921$30 per month or $150 for six months.

RPGPundit

Holy shit. But obviously someone paid that price.
Chapeaux! :hatsoff:

I think its fair for what you get. $30 a year just wouldn't be worth even bothering for, dude.

The cost is $30 a month per banner (with month being defined as a full month period from when you make your payment, so if you pay on june 8 it would be from June 8- July 8); or you can pay for 6 months for $150. If you do the latter, and you wish to change to a different banner (ie. replace the current banner running with a new one) at any point in time you may do so at your leisure.
Impressions are non-weighted, and equally rotating, with only a maximum of 10 slots available for banners (currently only 5 slots have been filled, however).
So you get unlimited impressions during that time, what would be a MINIMUM of 1 in every 10 page loads on this site (if you bought ad space right now, it would currently be 1 in every 6 page loads! based on the average hits statistic I mention further down, that would work out to an average of a little under 121000 impressions!).

Click-thrus are monitored and that information would be provided to you at any time upon request.

According to Brett, paying for 6 months of equivalent time on RPG.net would run you about $500. And while obviously RPG.net has a larger audience, a considerable percentage of that audience are not actually roleplayers (many of them being there only for the off-topic "Tangency" forum). The crowd at theRPGsite are a much more focused demographic.

theRPGsite has a volume of on average 724,000 hits a month, with about 25,000 unique IPs in May, for one example.
Additionally, theRPGsite has proprietary code that blocks access by a large number of bots/spiders, even those that ignore the normal robots.txt protocol. So, in fact, you are getting considerably fewer wasted impressions (hence, more useful impressions statistically) with the banners on this site compared to other sites like rpg.net. In other words, 25k impressions on a site like rpg.net dwindles down to nothing with all the bots.

RPGPundit