TheRPGSite

Because of his most recent stunt, whereby he specifically started a thread inviting Nox to come back to Off-Topic, addressing him in the first person by name, right after I had changed a thread title to remove Nox's name, all because he felt it would be a "challenge" to my "authority", I've decided that James' ongoing sniping has risen to the level of a potential disruption of the Off Topic forum. His posting a thread specifically titled "Dominux nox, where are you", inviting as such for Nox to break the rules by coming and posting on off-topic, is disruptive to that forum especially as the forum is only just now starting to recover from the "Nox show" that it had become (notice how it had been dead for several weeks after Nox left).  James' post invited someone to violate the ban imposed on him, stirred up conflict for no reason other than that he thought in his childlike-mind that he was showing how much of a man he was by "defying my authority", and may have led users that were planning to start coming back to Off Topic to believe that no, it is not safe there yet, its still the "nox show".  And to top it all off, he lied to the mods about why he did it.  As such, his account has been changed so he can no longer post there.

There was a lot of consideration about this among the moderators, some favouring banning him outright because there was no chance that he'd change his ways, since for him this is some kind of a bizarre ego challenge, while others were trying to negotiate with James to get him to apologize (which he refused to do).

In the end, I decided to go with my own instinct, which was to not ban him altogether, despite all the shit I've had to take from him, and despite the fact that no doubt the Swine Brigade will all rally to attack me for this decision just as if I'd arbitrarily banned him altogether, comparing me to hitler, saying I'm as bad as the rpgnet mods (right, because everyone knows on RPG.net you can spend 8 fucking months harassing a mod, calling him all kinds of names, attacking him, etc, and he'll respond by eventually limiting your rights on certain parts of the forum :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ).

This is for you James:  You continue to be on notice. Keep fucking with me in your pathetic little dickwaving contest and you'll see just how quickly you get stuck in a very limited place. You insist on acting like a spoiled little boy? Fine, you're grounded. No more Off-topic for you. If you want to be treated like a child, I will treat you like a fucking child.
Grow the fuck up. Do you realize that I had to defend you from those who wanted to suspend or ban you completely? Yeah, I'm the fucking enemy. You understand that not a single mod believes you won't end up banned from here (because no one believes that you're capable of changing how you act here anymore).  Its pathetic.

RPGPundit

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!

With that one post you show that you can't even read when it comes to me. The thread wasn't about getting Nox to post in a forum he's banned in, it was about getting someone to tell me how to contact. I thought I'd made that pretty clear, but maybe George Harrison was right when he wrote "The farther one travels the less one knows." :D

By the way, aren't you the man who just finished telling Shewolf:

QuoteAnd relax knowing that IF you choose to get involved in a flamewar, you won't get banned because of what you say, regardless of whether you agree or disagree with me.

Kinda funny to then turn around and topic ban me for disagreeing with you, then threaten to make it site wide if I continued.

And please, if you don't mind, stop talking about my dick? With how constantly you mention it, and your attempt at forced feminization the last time I told you I wouldn't be your pretty girl, it's starting to get weird.

I have, I should think obviously, not read all of James posts, but I am against this sort of censorship, and denial of free speech. Your post basically sounds a lot like "If you challenge me, you'll get censored, and maybe banned!"

As I understood the goals of this website this sort of thing is in direct conflict with not only the spirit of this place, but also that (rather silly) constitution.

Perhaps you're fine with this, but I will object to this sort of thing. I don't know what RPG.net would do, or care what they would do. I don't know, or even particularly like James, but I do think any time we censor someone and limit free speech it is a bad thing.

I know your reply to this will accuse me of all sorts of things, and call me many names, which is okay. Because I am not looking to limit your free speech, and expression. You should, if you're not interested in this board having truly free speech, just ban the people you don't like or want around, and modify your sites purposes, and constitution-that way no one can complain when you make a decision like this.

I know you have your RPG Pundit act to keep up, and I think it's funny. I know you have this persona you've created that we're supposed to believe in, and be impressed by-but really I've seen it done, and better. I know who you really are, and what you really are. As such I know you realize this decision was simply made to add to the Pundit melodrama, but I think you've been treading down a precarious path with this censorship and banning stuff.

Get back to your roots, and if James isn't actually just an account you've registered to argue with yourself, and stick to them. You're more entertaining that way.

I support sanctioning James.  Whether you agreed with the sanction choosen in the Nox case or not, a large number of people had agreed with the basic position that Nox had been disruptive to the board.  I was one of those people who felt that Nox was doing much more harm than good.

Off Topic was showing signs of recovery after Hurricane Nox.  People were actually starting to use it again.  Then someone went and necro'ed that stupid bagel thread with Nox's name in the title.  I thought Pundit overreacted by closing the thread and I told him so.  But I also think that something did need to be done to prevent Off Topic from turning into a bunch of Nox-related poo.

James starting a new thread about Nox right on the heels of the bagel thread was poor form.  The fact that he and Pundit fight like a grumpy old married couple isn't even germane here, in my opinion.  James was deliberately fanning an already burning fire.  Last I checked we only have two hard rules around here.  1) Don't be a spammer and 2) don't be disruptive.  Whatever James's intentions, this looks to me like a disruption.  We don't need another thread about Dominus frickin' Nox around here.

Quote from: jrients2) don't be disruptive.

I think the rest of your post was very well reasoned, and well written, but isn't this last bit here a little subjective? I mean who determines what disruptive is? And how do we keep people from just applying that label to people they don't like?

Maybe, and I am more than willing to admit I don't always know everything or even most things, his posts were that disruptive, but it doesn't seem like they really were. And if they were, why isn't Pundit removing his own access to Off Topic since he played the same game with the same glee?

Feel free to point out where I'm wrong, but please be prepared to support your position, because I will certainly ask questions.

Quote from: Serious PaulI think the rest of your post was very well reasoned, and well written, but isn't this last bit here a little subjective? I mean who determines what disruptive is? And how do we keep people from just applying that label to people they don't like?

I think we all know that Pundit is in charge around here, so I'm not telling anyone anything new by saying that he makes the final call.  What keeps Pundit honest?  The fact that every user on the board can vote with their feet, for one thing.  And the fact that everyone he's ever pissed off is waiting with baited breath to call him a hypocritical jackass.

Also note that although Pundit is the boss, he consults the other admins before taking any action.  In this case, Pundit decided on a lighter sanction than had been suggested by another admin.

QuoteMaybe, and I am more than willing to admit I don't always know everything or even most things, his posts were that disruptive, but it doesn't seem like they really were. And if they were, why isn't Pundit removing his own access to Off Topic since he played the same game with the same glee?

Pundit is not going to reduce his access to the board he runs.  That's just not practical, just like there have occasionally been users I would like on my ignore list but as an admin it would be irresponsible of me to ignore any user.

So short of everyone taking the drastic, and silly action, of everyone quitting the board the RPG Pundit will not be held accountable for his actions, regardless of what they are?

I just want to make sure I understand the rules, since they seem pretty arbitrary at this point.

Quote from: Serious PaulSo short of everyone taking the drastic, and silly action, of everyone quitting the board the RPG Pundit will not be held accountable for his actions, regardless of what they are?

I feel ill-equipped to speak to the matter of Pundit and the totality his actions on the board.  I came on this thread to note that I supported one particular decision of his, not to give my blanket endorsement to everything the man has ever said or done.

When I find myself in a situation where I think Pundit is helping more than he is hurting, I say so.  Usually I do so publicly.  I've seen many other users do the same.  If you are of the opinion that Pundit is being disruptive in Off Topic and should refrain from posting there, I suggest simply flatly stating your opinion.  There's no need to couch in terms of James' situation or to couch your opinions in these questions you are asking.

QuoteI just want to make sure I understand the rules, since they seem pretty arbitrary at this point.

Many well-functioning systems break when you examine extreme cases.  Modern D&D seems to melt down when you reach a certain experience level.  Astrophysics as we know it goes out the window inside a singularity, or so I'm told.  Trying to enforce the rules on the ultimate arbiter of the rules seems like a similarly doomed process.  I have to ask myself what I would prefer, a Pundit that sometimes shoots off his mouth, or setting up something like an appeals committee that will only increase the amount of nonsense.  Unless I see a solid proposal that makes sense and is less of a hassle than an wild-eyed autocrat, I'm going to choose Pundit.  If anyone has an alternative I would be interested in hearing about it.

Does this mean that Pundit can get away with stuff you or I couldn't?  Yes.  That's the nature of the board.  I choose not to let it bother me, because in exchange for the occasional outburst from a guy I know really, sincerely wants to make this board work, I get a message board I rather enjoy.  Because framing the raison d'etre of theRPGsite as a political statement is more Pundit's thing.  I'm not here because this board is more ideologically pure.  I'm here because I like the people and I find the atmosphere more easy-going than RPGnet.  If you buy into Pundit's dream of a social utopia on the net, I can see how the current events could be worrisome.  If you're here just for a nifty place to hang out and talk about games, I don't see how this whole fiasco is worth deep and heavy soulsearching.  Not that it's my job to decide what is or isn't important around here.

Quote from: jrientsIf you are of the opinion that Pundit is being disruptive in Off Topic and should refrain from posting there, I suggest simply flatly stating your opinion.

I do not find his posting any more disruptive than any other user, including James.

QuoteThere's no need to couch in terms of James' situation or to couch your opinions in these questions you are asking.

You can't speak for Pundit, but speaking for me is okay in your book? Interesting.

QuoteMany well-functioning systems break when you examine extreme cases.

Agreed.

I've seen nothing that indicates this is such.

QuoteTrying to enforce the rules on the ultimate arbiter of the rules seems like a similarly doomed process.

Well we certainly agree here, although unlike you (apparently) I am not discouraged by the prospect.

Quote from: Serious PaulYou can't speak for Pundit, but speaking for me is okay in your book? Interesting.

I'm not sure I'm following you.  If I'm putting words in your mouth, I apologize.

Also, I didn't say that I can't speak for Pundit.  I said that I feel ill-equipped to do so.  If you need me to try I can, but I'm not sure how helpful I would be.

QuoteWell we certainly agree here, although unlike you (apparently) I am not discouraged by the prospect.

I am discouraged.  I sense an undercurrent of discontent with some users and I don't know what to do about it.  Lots of people seem to enjoy the environment that Pundit has created, but at the first sign that Pundit is trying to keep the place on course he usually gets dogpiled.  I lack the wisdom to resolve the conflict.

Quote from: jrientsLots of people seem to enjoy the environment that Pundit has created, but at the first sign that Pundit is trying to keep the place on course he usually gets dogpiled.

The problem, or at least part of the problem as I see it, is that the course corrections he makes don't jive with the supposed intent of the board. It's difficult to say to a new user that you're running a place where people don't get banned for speaking out against the big boss, and then the very next day you topic ban someone for speaking out against the big boss. Likewise, it's hard to come across as truly magnanimous when you start public consultation threads to see advice from your members on solving problems and then ignore the majority's voices and go with the decision you stated in one of the first few posts.

Basically, and I may be a little biased on this one, the Free Speech that this site supposedly prospers under falls away if you happen to be the guy that, for reasons even he couldn't nail down when he said it, annoys him more than any of the "serious Swine from his rogue's gallery."

Quote from: jrientsI'm not sure I'm following you.  If I'm putting words in your mouth, I apologize.

No apologies necessary, I can see it was just a misunderstanding on my part.

QuoteLots of people seem to enjoy the environment that Pundit has created, but at the first sign that Pundit is trying to keep the place on course he usually gets dogpiled.  I lack the wisdom to resolve the conflict.

I'm sorry if you think I am part of some dog pile, as it were. I am honestly expressing my feelings in the matter, no more, no less. For my part censorship is  never the answer. It can never work, and can only create hostility.

You can't force a square peg into a round hole, and if your vision or his vision is narrow enough to not allow for some flex, then you both have unrealistic expectations. Any time you create a thing for public consumption you have to expect that it will take on it's own life, and grow from there. Attempts to force it to grow in a certain direction have to be careful, and well thought out if they're going to work.

But enough of my jibber jabber, for now!

Quote from: JamesIt's difficult to say to a new user that you're running a place where people don't get banned for speaking out against the big boss, and then the very next day you topic ban someone for speaking out against the big boss.

James, if all this fiasco was about was another instance of you and Pundit bickering, I would not be so inclined to throw you in the doghouse.  To me starting that Nox thread was the local equivalent of shouting fire in a crowded theater.  And the fact that you want to somehow blame Pundit for your own boneheaded stunt is not helping your case.  This present situation is not about your incompatibilities with Pundit, it's about you doing something dumb and refusing to acknowledge that you screwed up and could have done things differently.

Paul, I don't think you're dogpiling Pundit.

I did tell you I could have done things differently. What I also said was that I wasn't going to make a blanket apology for things I didn't do, despite Pundit demanding I "do it now, or else."

My exact words were

QuoteI will not apologize for things I did not do to a man who will hold it over my head every time I point out that he's acting like a retard. If that means I'm banned, so be it. If I thought it would change anything I would, but you and I both know that the instant I say something that contradicts something he said I'm back in the status of "that guy who's trying to destroy my site."

There are many, many people who speak out against him more often, more vocally, and more abusively then I ever have. I have never lied about him despite the multiple lies he's told about me. I've never forcibly changed his title as a failed attempt at bullying.

No, I will not lie to that man (or any man who doesn't have a gun to my face) and say I'm sorry for things I did not do.

I will apologize to you though, for helping to create a shit storm that caught you up in the middle of it. I'm honestly sorry about that part of all this.

and

QuoteNo, that's not the thought process. The thought process was "since I'm going to piss him off, I might as well do what I was going to do anyway, regardless of how he might feel."

and

QuoteMy intention wasn't to piss anyone off, merely to find out how to contact someone who seemed knowledgeable on a subject I'm currently interested in. The fact that it manged to piss Pundit off is atangential amusement. With or without him I'd have still wanted to know where DN can be found.

I know (and no longer care) that you, Pundit, and a third admin that apparently wanted me banned but won't say so to my face don't believe me when I say that. But it doesn't make it any less true.

Quote from: James McMurrayI know (and no longer care) that you, Pundit, and a third admin that apparently wanted me banned but won't say so to my face don't believe me when I say that. But it doesn't make it any less true.

You're right.  I overstated my case and that was wrong of me.  I apologize.

Enough already !
 Yes - I'm guilty of that one particular necro - I  just thought the bagels stuff was funny.
At the time - I saw someone browsing the thread, when I was looking through the "who's on right now' feature.  I was in a silly mood and probably should have just gone to sleep when I did that.

 I've already rapped my keyboard fingers on that one.

- Ed C.

Don't worry about it. The necroing was a trigger because it made Pundit censor something shortly after saying that censorship doesn't happen here, but it would have happened eventually. For whatever reasons, me speaking against Pundit is disruptive, even though I've never stirred up shit storms like he does on a regular basis. If it hadn't been now, my "seditionist" ways and "agenda to destroy this site" would have been "uncovered," "proven," and "dealt with" some other day.

Quote from: James McMurrayIt's difficult to say to a new user that you're running a place where people don't get banned for speaking out against the big boss, and then the very next day you topic ban someone for speaking out against the big boss. "

In other words, he didn't ban you.

Seanchai

True, but give it time. Assuming he doesn't stop acting like an ass, I almost certainly won't stop pointing out when he's being an ass, and eventually it'll be "too disruptive" despite there being a heck of a lot more people than me speaking against him.

He also told Serious Paul that there was no censorship here, and the very next day censored a post. His vision and his reality are out of whack.

QuoteI am discouraged. I sense an undercurrent of discontent with some users and I don't know what to do about it. Lots of people seem to enjoy the environment that Pundit has created, but at the first sign that Pundit is trying to keep the place on course he usually gets dogpiled. I lack the wisdom to resolve the conflict.

Oh horseshit.  He takes flack because despite his big talk about "free speech" and "censorship", the moment anyone criticizes him or his vews, he starts spouting paranoid rantings about "enemy action" and "conspiracies", and tossing out ban threats like they were candy.

You may be naive enough to ignore that and pretend that it isn't going anywhere, but I'm not, and shit like his behavior towards James is a spectacular example of the fact that it's only a matter of time before he starts backing up those threats at his own whims.

And you yourself have admitted that he takes the final call on everything, he's the guy in charge, and there's fuck all anyone else has to do with it.  so yeah, I get a bit nervous when he plays the tinpot dictator, and then has the audacity to expect his targets to take it with a fucking smile.  

Do you really fucking think that attacking everyone who disagrees with him with accusations of conspiracy and threats of banning is really keeping the place on any kind of course worth following?  Honestly?

Because I've generally seen you as a pretty reasonable individual, but you're really forcing me to reconsider my opinion of you here.

I think Pundit is showing his double face really bad here.  James did not 'invite' Nox back here, he asked how to get ahold of him and even stated why when asked.  Pundit sees shit and doesn't read what they actually wrote.  Top that off with his over the top attitude, gaming 'war' crap and everything else and it's only a matter of time before he starts running everybody off.

You'll live James. :)  Just don't carry this over into the proper forum. The temptation will be strong, but it'll acheive nothing. If you really do like this place (pundit notwithstanding) then disrupting the RPG forum will just fuck things up. On a similar note, Pundit, you have your own forum to rant and rave. Why not keep the rants there and talk like a nice, normal person on the RPG forum? That way, you'd get far less flak. As it's going at the moment, you're getting yourself an anti-fanclub, which is starting to get disruptive. This seems to be against your nature though. How about arguing in a measured way when you're railing against 'the swine' instead of the histrionics? There's a fine line between acting up and stirring controversy to get more readers/posters and actually running them out of town. Time perhaps, to think about plan A plus?

I'm more curious about how many of these discussions are just Pundit's own accounts, himself arguing with himself. I mean we all know he isn't who he is saying he is right? I mean his whole Pundit personality is just a put on, an act. He is no more the RPG Pundit in real life than he is any of the other accounts he is almost certainly running here.

Quote from: Serious PaulI'm more curious about how many of these discussions are just Pundit's own accounts, himself arguing with himself. I mean we all know he isn't who he is saying he is right? I mean his whole Pundit personality is just a put on, an act. He is no more the RPG Pundit in real life than he is any of the other accounts he is almost certainly running here.

Now look who's being paranoid . . .

Way to torpedo your own credibility there, sport.

Quote from: J ArcaneNow look who's being paranoid . . .

I'm not paranoid, it's at least partially true. I may be wrong on a few details, but I can tell you for a fact that RPG Pundit is a persona, not a person.

QuoteWay to torpedo your own credibility there, sport.

I've never been worried about that. Time will prove me correct.

You're being an idiot, Paul. I have precisely ONE account on here, this one.

RPGPundit

McMurray did not start a thread inviting Nox back into the Off-Topic forum, he started a thread asking if anyone knew how to get in touch with him so he could discuss some rpg-related stuff with him. That's entirely within the general purpose of this place.

The Off Topic subforum ban for McMurray is unnecessary and wrong. He does have the annoying habit of carrying a grudge about RPGPundit, but vice versa, so it comes out even. See, most of the posters here are sensible, we can call someone a cocksmock in one thread and agree with them in another. But certain posters - James McMurray, RPGPundit, J_Arcane, and a few others - just can't let shit go.

Both McMurray and RPGPundit need to grow the fuck up, drop grudges, and focus on talking about roleplaying stuff on these forums. McMurray should not be prevented from seeing or posting to the Off Topic subforum.

Quote from: J ArcaneOh horseshit.  He takes flack because despite his big talk about "free speech" and "censorship", the moment anyone criticizes him or his vews, he starts spouting paranoid rantings about "enemy action" and "conspiracies", and tossing out ban threats like they were candy.

You may be naive enough to ignore that and pretend that it isn't going anywhere, but I'm not, and shit like his behavior towards James is a spectacular example of the fact that it's only a matter of time before he starts backing up those threats at his own whims.

I don't think I'm being naive about anything.  My comment was not meant to impy that Pundit is some kind of misunderstood saint.  Clearly his actions and his rhetoric do not always match up.  What discourages me is the number of people who take the bait and try to argue a point with him.  I can't be the only guy here who has notices that the man NEVER backs down.  But a lot of people seem more interested in scoring points off of Pundit rather than simply enjoying the rest of the site.  James seems to be one of those people.  If we all went back to talking about RPGs instead of endless rhetorical throwdowns I think the site would be a lot better.

QuoteAnd you yourself have admitted that he takes the final call on everything, he's the guy in charge, and there's fuck all anyone else has to do with it.  so yeah, I get a bit nervous when he plays the tinpot dictator, and then has the audacity to expect his targets to take it with a fucking smile.  

Do you really fucking think that attacking everyone who disagrees with him with accusations of conspiracy and threats of banning is really keeping the place on any kind of course worth following?  Honestly?

Because I've generally seen you as a pretty reasonable individual, but you're really forcing me to reconsider my opinion of you here.

I know Pundit has an over the top online personality, but you really are overstating your case.  He seems to see swine under every bed, but he most certainly does not threaten to ban everyone who disagrees with him.  In the nine months or so the board has been open the admins have discussed the possibility of banning exactly two users.  Neither of which were outright banned and both of which were sanctioned after lengthy debate.  Does that really sound to you like a man rushing out to ban people?

I have to go get ready for work now.  No doubt there'll be more fuel on this fire when I get back online.

I may be new to this place, and I have only skimmed through James' posts, but what I see here worrys me.

I was attracted to theRPGsite because of the no-censoring no-arbitrary-mod-decisions no-forced-opinion-cuddling-for-the-sake-of-community policy, which is a welcome change to the other English and German RPG boards. To see that someone's access to a channel gets restricted because a single sysop is pissed off runs absolutely counter to this policy, and I have to think hard if I stay here or not. The actual and current discussions aren't much more worthwile than on any sane board else, but what fascinates me is the potential for fruitful discourse in such an no-holds-barred environment. If this potential vanishes because of the mood of "the invisible discussions of the powers that be", I see no convincing reason to take the language barrier and discuss here. If all what I wanted was controlled discourse under the supervision of an almighty community protector, I could have stayed in Germany.


In addition, I have to agree on JimBobs (and others) interpretation of the Nox thread. It sounded more than a contact-seeking than a re-invitation.

How does subject banning help in any way?

Please, tell me how in any way did James interfere with the RPG talk on this board?

So, if RPG talk wasn´t concerned, there need to be no action.

Pundit, you were half-correct when you forced James McMurray to ignore your posts before. But what you really should have done, and should do now, is put him on your ignore list.

The idea that you need to read his posts to run the site is not true, since this forum doesn't have the same kind of content-policing that others do. And anyway, jrients is also a moderator, and other users can still report his posts if he starts posting goat porn or something.

Bad call. Not the first. Won't be the last.

Now that we're on our way with our very own Rule 10 firmly in place, I'm betting we'll get our first real ban before the close of the year. Any takers for the pool?

Quote from: Christmas ApeBad call. Not the first. Won't be the last.

In your opinion was th bad call the particular sanction selected or taking any action at all?

QuoteNow that we're on our way with our very own Rule 10 firmly in place, I'm betting we'll get our first real ban before the close of the year. Any takers for the pool?

I'm not going to go back to RPGnet just to hunt down a Rule you don't like, dude.  But I've already said to the other admins that if James and Pundit continue to bump heads then Mr. McMurray won't last another month or two.

He meant, rpg.net rules & guidelines (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=90683),

Rule 10: Respect our decisions. The moderation team reserves the right to warn, suspend, or permanently ban users judged to be acting against the spirit of the rules, even users conforming to the letter.

Translation: "If we don't like you, we'll get you no matter what." So Christmas Ape is saying that a moderator's personal dislike of a poster is influencing their moderation decisions.

Which is of course no shit.

Both RPGPundit and McMurray should learn to just drop it. Take that chip on your shoulder, and just drop it in the fire, and toast marshmallows over it. I mean, McMurray has had a go at me many times, and Dominus Nox had nothing but abuse for me - but when McMurray posted asking if we knew how to contact Nox, I offered suggestions. Why? Because, you know, why be a shit about things? Why jump into unrelated threads just to have a go at someone? Both McMurray and RPGPundit have threadcrapped on each-other many times. Grow the fuck up, and drop it.

I don't think we're to the point where the admins are demanding that you respect our authoritay, but in general I value the spirit of rules more than detailed legalistic interpretation of them.  So maybe he's right.

Quote from: J ArcaneYou may be naive enough to ignore that and pretend that it isn't going anywhere, but I'm not, and shit like his behavior towards James is a spectacular example of the fact that it's only a matter of time before he starts backing up those threats at his own whims.

Can we take this as a declaration of your intent to leave then?

Seanchai

Quote from: peteramthorPundit sees shit and doesn't read what they actually wrote.

I'm not Pundit. I definitely thought - think, really - James started the second thread to stir the pot.

Seanchai

I don't have a problem with either Pundit or James.  I read James' post the same way JimBob did, as a request for information on Nox.  The same was true about the thread Koltar necro'd, it wasn't a Nox baiting thread, it was just a joke.  

All that aside though, given the context of the history between Pundit and James, and the timing of James' thread I can understand why Pundit reached the conclusion that James was deliberately baiting him.  I'm a relatively new poster but Pundit doesn't strike me as thin skinned and he seems to tolerate a lot of personal attacks and disagreement with his positions as long as they don't become disruptive to the site.  Hell, Nox started a poll on what kind of asshole Pundit was and that didn't even get him banned.  The issue with Nox though is his situation became a disruption and it is understandable that Pundit wants to avoid a resurrection of the Nox show for that reason.

Not to second guess the decision in this case, but if you take James at his word it might defuse the tension to just reinstate his ability to post in open, delete the Nox thread he posted, and then ask for a "gentlemen's agreement" that we won't post or necro anymore Nox related threads.  That way James already has his answer on how to contact Nox, we won't get a repeat of the Nox show, James can prove he isn't trying to be disruptive since he won't have any reason to bring Nox up again, and the the free speech advocates can rest a little easier.

Just a suggestion.

Quote from: JimBobOzMcMurray did not start a thread inviting Nox back into the Off-Topic forum, he started a thread asking if anyone knew how to get in touch with him so he could discuss some rpg-related stuff with him.

No, he started a thread asking if anyone knew how to get a hold of him. He didn't say why. Moreover, the thread is titled, "Dominus Nox, Where Art Thou?" In other words, it's addressed to him.

Seanchai

Quote from: JimBobOzThe Off Topic subforum ban for McMurray is unnecessary and wrong. He does have the annoying habit of carrying a grudge about RPGPundit, but vice versa, so it comes out even. See, most of the posters here are sensible, we can call someone a cocksmock in one thread and agree with them in another. But certain posters - James McMurray, RPGPundit, J_Arcane, and a few others - just can't let shit go.

I've had several discussions with Pundit that weren't hate-fests, including being stoked about the release of his game, despite also calling him a retard for his latest paranoid rants. I've had several conversations with you that don't involve slinging shit, while thinking you're an over-controlling doof who thinks this site should be run exactly to his specifications and free speech be damned. I've had several RPG related conversations with Dominus Nox while simultaneously pointing and laughing at his ludicrous political ideas.

Saying I can't divorce the message from the messenger is outright wrong, and easily verified as such. Even Pundit has made a few constructive comments in threads I've started, just none (that I can remember) while I was currently pointing out something he was hilariously wrong about.

It's not that we can't get along. We've done it in the past when t he discussion was just about RPG and not about how this person or that idea is Swinish. The problem is that when I'm the one speaking out again Pundit it drives him into a frothing rage. And when Pundit writes something about X idea being swinish, or how such-and-such game is destroying the hobby, I don't restrain myself from joinging the chorus of people telling him he's a loon.

Then again, I shouldn't have to. Telling people they're a loon is part of the vision that this site is supposedly upholding.

Quote from: SeanchaiNo, he started a thread asking if anyone knew how to get a hold of him. He didn't say why. Moreover, the thread is titled, "Dominus Nox, Where Art Thou?" In other words, it's addressed to him.

Seanchai

It's addressed to him to be humorous. Dominus Nox is banned from Off Topic, and as far as anyone can tell doesn't come here anymore, except perhaps to look for threads he can bitch about on another site, but he seems to grab most of those from RPG.net and SJGame. Had I posted it in RPG open it would definitely have been addressed to him, but since it wasn't an RPG related topic I didn't.

I will say that I don't think there's anything wrong with addressing a thread to someone. Nox hasn't been banned, and I was looking to discuss RPG materials, which is tentaively what this site is about (when it isn't a rent fest against other boards). People post threads looking for another member at boards all the time. The only reason this one was wrong is because Pundit wanted Nox banned but wouldn't do it and was afraid he'd come back. He even censored a title of a thread for fear that would happen.

Had it been about Lev Lafayette (another guy Pundit wanted to ban) the response would probably have been the same (assuming someone had recently necroed a thread about Lev and Bagels).

Quote from: James McMurrayI will say that I don't think there's anything wrong with addressing a thread to someone.

No, there isn't.

But it's also not as if the people who feel you were up to something are completely without reason. 1. You followed up a bitter exchange about Nox with a brand new thread, asking how to get in touch with Nox. 2. The initial post doesn't mention why you want to get a hold of him. 3. You address the thread to him.

Quote from: James McMurrayNox hasn't been banned, and I was looking to discuss RPG materials, which is tentaively what this site is about (when it isn't a rent fest against other boards).

And if you'd said in your original post, "Hey, I want to talk to Nox about sci-fi games. How can I get a hold of him?" maybe only Pundit would think you were posting just to cause trouble.

Quote from: James McMurrayPeople post threads looking for another member at boards all the time.

They do, and if you'd said in your original post, "Hey, I want to talk to Nox about sci-fi games. How can I get a hold of him?" maybe only Pundit would think you were posting just to cause trouble.

Quote from: James McMurrayHad it been about Lev Lafayette (another guy Pundit wanted to ban) the response would probably have been the same (assuming someone had recently necroed a thread about Lev and Bagels).

Had you just been...discussing Lev Lafayette with Pundit just before you started a thread trying to find, yeah, I imagine the result would have been the same...

Seanchai

Quote from: SkyrockI may be new to this place, and I have only skimmed through James' posts, but what I see here worrys me.

I was attracted to theRPGsite because of the no-censoring no-arbitrary-mod-decisions no-forced-opinion-cuddling-for-the-sake-of-community policy, which is a welcome change to the other English and German RPG boards. To see that someone's access to a channel gets restricted because a single sysop is pissed off runs absolutely counter to this policy, and I have to think hard if I stay here or not. The actual and current discussions aren't much more worthwile than on any sane board else, but what fascinates me is the potential for fruitful discourse in such an no-holds-barred environment. If this potential vanishes because of the mood of "the invisible discussions of the powers that be", I see no convincing reason to take the language barrier and discuss here. If all what I wanted was controlled discourse under the supervision of an almighty community protector, I could have stayed in Germany.

Trust me, as long as you are not just disrupting the site to try to attack someone (whether its me or anyone else), you are allowed to disagree with and argue with and swear at and debate with anyone you want, including me.

So to sum up:
fighting and arguing with me: won't get you in trouble.
trying to harm the site or part of the site itself just to get back at me: will get you in trouble.

James' supposed reason for his post is a pathetic cover-story, which should be obvious to anyone who reads the comments he posted on the other thread immediately before starting his Nox invitation thread. In the previous thread, he noted that I'd taken the name "nox" out of the previous thread, he noted that i had "bowed to the will of the users", but that changing the name was a way for me to "hold onto my authority" (it wasn't, it was a way to allow people to talk about stupid fucking bagels without risking that the Nox issue would kill the still-delicate Off Topic forum), so he decided right after that to challenge that same "authority" by starting a thread with Nox's full name on it, asking him "where are you"?
If you or Jimbob really can't see his actual motives behind this, you're both blind.

RPGPundit

Quote from: hgjsPundit, you were half-correct when you forced James McMurray to ignore your posts before. But what you really should have done, and should do now, is put him on your ignore list.

The idea that you need to read his posts to run the site is not true, since this forum doesn't have the same kind of content-policing that others do. And anyway, jrients is also a moderator, and other users can still report his posts if he starts posting goat porn or something.

Around here, I don't bend to James' frivolous wishes. As much as he would like it otherwise, I'm the Admin here, and he's not. It would be ludicrous for me to censor my own reading just because of what James is writing.

RPGPundit

Quote from: SeanchaiNo, there isn't.

But it's also not as if the people who feel you were up to something are completely without reason. 1. You followed up a bitter exchange about Nox with a brand new thread, asking how to get in touch with Nox. 2. The initial post doesn't mention why you want to get a hold of him. 3. You address the thread to him.

Yep, and the reason I followed up an exchange about Nox with a hunt for him is fully explained in the thread. It isn't in the opening post, but I didn't realize that people were expected to lay out their motives when posting threads.

Yes, I figured it would piss Pundit off, but I honestly don't care if he gets pissed off. Waking up in the morning seems to anger the man, so I'd rather go barefoot than put on my eggshell shoes when I come to what is supposedly the frontier town of RPGs.

QuoteAnd if you'd said in your original post, "Hey, I want to talk to Nox about sci-fi games. How can I get a hold of him?" maybe only Pundit would think you were posting just to cause trouble.

True. And that's why I apologized to jrients for putting him in the position I did.

QuoteThey do, and if you'd said in your original post, "Hey, I want to talk to Nox about sci-fi games. How can I get a hold of him?" maybe only Pundit would think you were posting just to cause trouble.

True. And that's why I apologized to jrients for putting him in the position I did.

Wait. Is there an echo in here? ;)

And once again I propose the Off-Topic Forum be dumped. It's just not worth it.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityAnd once again I propose the Off-Topic Forum be dumped. It's just not worth it.

...and I politely disagree.

 If done right , an off-topic section on any forum can be a friendly place for venting and for things that just don't seem to fit the other sub-forums.

...just my opinion , your kilometerage may vary....

- Ed C.

Quote from: James McMurrayIt isn't in the opening post, but I didn't realize that people were expected to lay out their motives when posting threads.

Of course they're not. By the same token, however, you don't get to play martyr when your post is taken the wrong way because your motive is unclear, particularly given the circumstances.

Quote from: James McMurrayYes, I figured it would piss Pundit off, but I honestly don't care if he gets pissed off.

That's what I figured. Personally, I feel you lose whatever moral high ground you might have when you intentionally provoke a response so that you can then cry foul...

Seanchai

This is Pundit and his views of me (liar, intentionally trying to destroy his community, etc). Eventually something I say is going to get his goat. If it's "intentionally provoking a response" to decide I no longer give a shit, then I'm guilty.

But when you say it was done so that I can cry foul you're wrong. And you're in danger of wearing the same "I can read minds and motives" goggles Pundit likes. Is there anything that either a) I can do to prove that idea wrong, or b) you can do to prove it right? If the answer to a is yes, tell me and I'll do it. If the answer to b is no, perhaps you're working with an opinion and treating it as fact?

Quote from: James McMurrayEventually something I say is going to get his goat.

That's likely. It's just a matter of whether or not you'll a) do that intentionally and b) do that in a way that's disruptive to the site as a whole.

Quote from: James McMurrayIf the answer to b is no, perhaps you're working with an opinion and treating it as fact?  

My conclusion absolutely an opinion. As far as I can see, it's absolutely a correct and apt opinion as well.

The facts are: You made a big deal about censorship in the Nox thread, then created a new thread in the wake of your disagreement. You admit that you knew Pundit would react poorly to it. The title is addressed Nox and you didn't explain why you wanted to get a hold of him in your initial post.

I believe you when you say the reason you want to get a hold of Nox is so that you can discuss sci-fi game. However, I believe the reason you created the thread and worded it as you did was to bait Pundit and prolong your censorship drama.

Seanchai

Quote from: RPGPunditIf you or Jimbob really can't see his actual motives behind this, you're both blind.

Shouldn't his motives be irrelevant? Shouldn't each user only be judged on their actions?

I mean if we're going to start delving into the reason each poster is here, aren't we opening a real Pandora's Box?

Quote from: Pierce InverarityAnd once again I propose the Off-Topic Forum be dumped. It's just not worth it.

To you. Do you post there? I mean if you just ignore that section of board, and if others do the same what difference does it make what happens there?

I mean I pretty much think the Amber section is a waste of space, but instead of bitching about it I just don't post there. I vote with my dollars and sense.

Quote from: Serious PaulShouldn't his motives be irrelevant? Shouldn't each user only be judged on their actions?

I mean if we're going to start delving into the reason each poster is here, aren't we opening a real Pandora's Box?

Ok, sure, I'll grant you this: the actual actions and not the motives for being here should be the judgement of whether to take any kind of moderator action. No doubt about that.

That is to say, if I doubt James McMurray's or, J Arcane or Blue Devil's motives for being here, it doesn't allow me to summarily ban them.

Its their actions that matter. And James took action. His action in and of itself was the disruption. Action that he now admitted he largely took in order to "get my goat". Action that, by trying to turn Off-topic back into "the Nox show", I judged to be detrimental to the functioning of the Off-topic forum as a whole.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditIts their actions that matter. And James took action. His action in and of itself was the disruption. Action that he now admitted he largely took in order to "get my goat". Action that, by trying to turn Off-topic back into "the Nox show", I judged to be detrimental to the functioning of the Off-topic forum as a whole.

Okay.

Well I'm off to the Chinese buffet folks, but it's been real! Pundit, you'll always be welcome at my gaming table. You and Jong always have a plate at the table.

Quote from: Serious PaulI mean I pretty much think the Amber section is a waste of space, but instead of bitching about it I just don't post there.

The Amber forum doesn't generate problems.

Seems like a place that valued free speech wouldn't have admins starting thread where they badmouth other members in subforums that they've just finished banning that member from. But that's fairly typical of Pundit's "dish it but don't take it" stance.

QuoteThe Amber forum doesn't generate problems.

Perhaps because it's mostly ignored? It definitely generated problems when it was first created. All sorts of people complained about favoritism, advertising, and I can't remember what else. Then they decided to ignore the forum they didn't like and the problems disappeared.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityThe Amber forum doesn't generate problems.

That's a point of view. From my own point of view it's different. But since I'm not into forcing my personal opinions and views on others I'll stick to just leaving things I don't like alone and voting with my feet, dollars and sense.

Now damn it, after a frickin' hours delay I really am off to eat some chinese food.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityAnd once again I propose the Off-Topic Forum be dumped. It's just not worth it.

I can't agree with this more.  If people really feel the need to discuss bagels, politics, Oscar nominations and such then they should make their own forum and invite the people they want over.  OT forums are just more trouble than they're worth and, contrary to Koltar's personal experience (YMMV of course), I've never seen them done right.

Let me hedge that a bit and say that the only time I see OT forums work is when you have a "semi-serious OT" (usually limited to music, movies, books, food, even politics/current events) and "kitchen sink" (keetooms, bagels, myspace wannabe's, "I'm having a bad day," vibes, etc).  

And I'm going to piss off Werekoala for bringing this up, but democraticunderground.com has an excellent feature where a user can essentially delete specific threads from their view.  There's no "this thread has been ignored," type of message -- it's just gone.  That would be a nifty feature to implement here, but I believe DU is a heavily homebrewed message board so I don't know how difficult that would be to implement.

Quote from: RPGPunditAction that he now admitted he largely took in order to "get my goat". Action that, by trying to turn Off-topic back into "the Nox show", I judged to be detrimental to the functioning of the Off-topic forum as a whole.

RPGPundit

That thread blew up because of you.  Simple reason enough.  All of the disruption after it was because of you.  If you hadn't posted into it and let it drop then there wouldn't even be this discussion going on.  The only person who has tried to turn it back into "the Nox show" is you.

To address the specific James vs. Pundit situation at hand:

In almost all Internet Drama cases, I think a simple matter of a PM exchange might have cleared up a lot of this mess.  In a perfect world it might have went something like this:

Pundit: "Did you just post that to fuck things up?"
James: "You know, in hindsight, I can see that it may seem that way but I assure you that's not the case."
Pundit: "Okay, just checking.  I know we have 'history' so I just wanted to clear that up."
James: "No problem!"

But this is the Internet, so Welcome to Stupidiotsville, population: Us.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityAnd once again I propose the Off-Topic Forum be dumped. It's just not worth it.

I'd add that this would only have even a slim chance of working if the RPGPundit's own forum were removed. It would become the defacto off-topic, only exclusively shitstorm.

Quote from: JimBobOzMcMurray did not start a thread inviting Nox back into the Off-Topic forum, he started a thread asking if anyone knew how to get in touch with him so he could discuss some rpg-related stuff with him. That's entirely within the general purpose of this place.

The Off Topic subforum ban for McMurray is unnecessary and wrong. He does have the annoying habit of carrying a grudge about RPGPundit, but vice versa, so it comes out even. See, most of the posters here are sensible, we can call someone a cocksmock in one thread and agree with them in another. But certain posters - James McMurray, RPGPundit, J_Arcane, and a few others - just can't let shit go.

Both McMurray and RPGPundit need to grow the fuck up, drop grudges, and focus on talking about roleplaying stuff on these forums. McMurray should not be prevented from seeing or posting to the Off Topic subforum.

I agree with most of that, though we do have to remember how most of us know Pundit. He has rightfully earned the reputation of being a paranoid lunatic with many axes to grind. That said, even I agree with him now and again (I don't, however, agree with him on this call).

As far as most of us being able to call each other names in one thread and then cordially discuss things in another, I wholeheartedly agree. I mean, over at RPGnet I don't think you and I (or Seanchai and I, J Arcane and I, etc) ever exchanged a kind word.

Here, though, we manage to do that (if infrequently).

I thhink that's part of theRPGsite's charm, really. Actions like this (i.e., the forum ban) run directly contrary to what makes this dynamic work, however. Pundit's ad copy is gold, though lately, his actions have tarnished the silver lining of the place.

As I said in the off-topic forum, I think the more that Pundit distances himself from performing moderation duties, the better this site will be for everybody (including him). He works better as the man behind the curtain, rather than the public face of enforcement.

Quote from: jdrakehI mean, over at RPGnet I don't think your and I (or Seanchai and I, J Arcane and I, etc) ever exchanged a kind word.

Here, though, we manage to do that (if infrequently).

Good morning!

Seanchai

Quote from: jdrakehAs far as most of us being able to call each other names in one thread and then cordially disucss things in another, I wholeheartedly agree. I mean, over at RPGnet I don't think your and I (or Seanchai and I, J Arcane and I, etc) ever exchanged a kind word.

With certain troubled people on rpg.net, I had no kind words, no.

Not words, but...

I wonder how old Rob Lowry's going these days.

Quote from: SeanchaiGood morning!

Seanchai

Good morning, neighbor!

Quote from: JimBobOzI wonder how old Rob Lowry's going these days.

I don't know. I suspect that I'll find out soon, though. Living ammends and all that.