TheRPGSite

So about the recent Gleichman fiasco (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=30151) thread.

Brian says something, people get up in his face, he's getting passive aggressive shit (I'll cop to it, my apologies Brian) and aggressive shit, basically living a world of Amber "bad stuff", and then this happens (sorry about the lack of post links, the thread is locked):

Quote from: The Butcher, post 183What, gleichman bred?

which cracks the door open.

Brian says this (post 185):

QuoteTwo, twin boys.

 Both went on to military service with one currently deployed in the Persian Gulf. I now await the wishes that he's killed while in harm's way, for that's just about how you bastards think.

and rather than back off at the "keep my family out of it" hint, inevitably enough this gets posted:

Quote from: Novastar

QuoteQuote: Originally Posted by gleichman  
Unlike the common poster at therpgsite, he is neither a child nor suffers emotional damage when told he made an error.

That's not what you just said:

QuoteQuote: Does that bother me? Only in the say way that human stupidity always bothers me. It would be a better world if it had better people.

You just inferred he's stupid and a flawed person, because he made a different call than you in an RPG game.

So first things, "it would be a better world if it had better people" was directed at ME, I can deal with it, thank you. But secondly, twisting it into an attack on his own son is textbook taking something out of context and using it to attack someone.

Brian takes some, I'd say legitimate, umbrage at the implication, and we're off, with The Butcher, Novastar again (yes it escalated quickly, but what the hell did you expect when you brought his family into it), Will, Marleycat (indirectly, expressing you might enjoy seeing Gleichman getting attacked through his sons), jeff37923,  and Emperor Norton.

So what do we have here? The current vernacular is online harassment, I'll just call it straight up bullying. You may not agree with Brian, you may not like him, you may enjoy needling him, but you need to keep it to him. As One Horse Town said:

QuoteI'm sorry, Brian. A couple of those comments are well out of order and i totally understand your anger on this.

 Jesus people, leave the personal family stuff alone.

Let me repeat that, don't attack people through their families.  

These kinds of comments make a mockery of the ethos of this site. Vigorous argument is one thing, blatant PAs that get community support in some sort of blood in the water feeding frenzy is something else entirely. It holds the whole site up for ridicule. This is exactly the kind of shit Zak got accused of stirring up. You'd think that would make people a little more cognizant of acting like online bullies, but apparently not.  

We are supposed to be self policing and better than that, this shows we aren't. So here's what I'm doing, I'm calling The Butcher, Novastar, Will, Marleycat, jeff37923, and Emperor Norton, and anyone I may have missed, out. I don't care if you think what you said was legit, you should have shut it, and you need to apologize for it. Make it flowery, make it a simple "I'm sorry", I don't care. Suck it up, do the right thing, and post an apology here, show we can be better than that.

I'll start:
Brian, I'm sorry. I saw what was happening but didn't say anything, and given the bullying should have known better than to contribute to it with my passive-aggressive BS. I don't always agree with you, but in general I think you have some interesting things to say. I would certainly prefer you continue to contribute here. I'm sorry.

Oh, and just to repeat, keep peoples families out of it.


And in case it needs to be said, this isn't a point at the people I called out and act holier than thou thread either.

Moved this to the Help Desk as it's basically a board culture thing.

I really think we can do better than this. Even anything on the edge of bringing families into it should give some definite pause. Can we maybe just agree, whatever the feelings are on the thread in question, that in the future, any sort of family commentary, direct or indirect, implied or implicit, is probably not the sort of thing that does us any favors as an RPG forum and community?

I'd like to see us move on and focus on better gaming discussion.

My initial comment was a joke. I'm pretty sure almost everyone here is old enough to remember what one of those looks like.

Gleichman felt the necessity to reply, sharing personal family information with everyone, and took the opportunity to level a particularly virulent accusation — that we would wish for the death of a human being just to spite him — at the board as a whole ("you bastards").

I was even considerate enough of his bitterness to allay his completely baseless fears of anyone wishing ill upon his family; congratulated him on said family; and, horror of horrors, ended it with what I considered at the time a good-natured ribbing (post #188).

Since all parts are presumably adults who are more than capable of dealing with words, let alone at an Internet forum about elfgames, I'm having a hard time understanding what the fuss is all about. I mean, it's not exactly my best moment as a poster, but I don't get the wailing and gnashing of teeth either.

And with gleichman's insufferable "you are ALL doing it wrong" attitude and his habit of popping up every few months to troll the boards (I've tried to engage him honestly in the past, to no avail, and I don't think I was the only one), I can't really see him as the victim here. I have witnessed worse dogpiles, and even bans, of posters who did far less to annoy people and "disrupt the site" than dear ol' gleichman.

Two things, because I didn't see those comments before the thread was locked.

1. I absolutely agree that shots shouldn't be taken at family members

2. Gleichman brought them up himself, and tried to hide behind them with this:

QuoteI now await the wishes that he's killed while in harm's way, for that's just about how you bastards think.

That was the first salvo of utter bullshit in that thread.  No one, not one single person, even implied that they wished his kids dead.  That was complete and utter bullshit cowardice on his part.  

I'm a veteran.  I've had friends that didn't make it back in one piece, and some that didn't make it back at all.  For him to hide behind that, let alone his own kids, whenever someone calls him out on him being an asshole, is some of the lowest crap I've seen in a long, long time.

So sorry, I have no sympathy for him at all on that.

The thread in question is a disgrace for this forum and makes me consider leaving it permanently. I do not understand which type of community, online or offline, can engage and escalate this type of behaviour at the collective level this has reached, while retaining any self respect or respect for basic social decency.

Freedom of speech licenses insults, but it does not license dogpiling and ganging in on a person as was the case here. In my book, the forum has now officially crossed the line of cyber bullying (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberbullying). I also notice that the preferred type of victim is any of the more fringe parts of its older membership. As a result, the forum is quickly losing whatever differentiated it from rpg.net at the level of content and culture of debate.

As stated the issue is collective, not individual, but by way of example I'll isolate two people who stand on the opposite side of a cultural, political spectrum to illustrate how 'successful' this site has become to attract people who condone and escalate the dynamics we can all observe here.

Marleycat has fucked up so many threads in the past months I stopped counting. Insults and allegations are flung at posters who post direct on topic content, which come seemingly come out at nowhere. I actually went back in time and low and behold, this poster has managed to get other posters banned because she successfully flame baited them, repeatedly. Gleichman calls this specifically out as harassment in the latest thread. I think he is correct.

The solution? Tell people who bring to this site a self-declared 'football hooligan' mentality (worn as a badge of honour, apparently) from their 'sports fora' to take it back to those sites. Disputes over games are not shouting matches over your local football team in a derby. If you lack the level of sophistication and discernment to tell the difference between these two types of discussion, we can't ask you to shut up, but we can ask you to stop disrupting this site with an endless stream of non-contributions.

My other nomination of the hour is Zak S, who manages to set the tone in a single thread he has no interest or ability to contribute to, except to license it as a personal 'get back at gleichman' moment. This is the type of contribution this forum should not tolerate. As in, at all.  Having banned from rpg.net, and pretty much ousted from The Gaming Den, as being an insufferable, uncommunicative narcissist, Zak S is now taking his online persona and antics that work for a blog - scratch that, that work for his blog - to the area they have proven to not work for at all: online fora. This whole 'answer my question or I'm gonna delete you' attitude stinks sky high in its conceit and aggression. Yes, it works when you run a site, and call it your blog, but perpretate this level of self-importance and all conversations begin to revolve around yourself and your issues over self (perceived or real). A class act for anyone coming out of the punk movement, and one that on other sites has already paid its price for its unlovely combination of radical rhetoric and professorial authoritarianism.

I guess similar things could be said about other posters, or about the two posters I singled out. The main point of singling them out is not to make it about them only, but to alert the forum to the fact that this site has now become the playground of social rejects from other fora, and there's the real issue if this community wants to be that thing.

I'm tired of people who make online fora the personal playground for their crusades and vendettas. If this community does not act quickly, it will have become a second rpg.net, except with not-safe-for-work language and imagery allowed to briefly interrupt its social hysteria. And in that case, I'll follow Melan, Benoist, and the others who have already left this forum as no longer a constructive, comfortable, and wortwhile social outlet for RPG discussions. I guess the community is already at the rear end of this development, so the only thing I regret is that this wasn't raised as an issue much earlier. Good luck everyone, and in closing - my sympathies to gleichman for this treatment, and the RPG hobby is richer for his making it clear that he doesn't want to be part of this community, not even in the difficult role he chose for himself over the past years.

I have to agree with the posters expressing dissapointment in that thread. I realize people have issues with gleichman, that he can be provocative, but i also think he didn't come out of that thread looking like the one to blame for it. I feel things have become more personal and hostile, and do believe we can do better. We have free speech here, that is part of the site's core principles. I do think people could be exercizing that a bit better than they have of late. I don't think folks involved realize how bad the thread reads. That was pretty much every poster on the thread, with a handful of exceptions, attacking the guy in a way that just comes off like bullying. It was the internet equivalent of holding someone down and kicking them while they are on the ground. Once it reaches that point, it doesn't matter if the person deserves it or not. There is smack talk, but then there is stuff like you had on this thread.

I for one wouldn't mind seeing more points of view explored rather than squashed down first thing.

Quote from: apparition13;772597Let me repeat that, don't attack people through their families.  

Likewise, a poster should not try to use his family members as shields when they feel attacked whether they are or not. Gleichman brought up his son's military service in a manner that shows he expected someone to take a potshot at that in an attempt to garner sympathy in a gaming discussion.

Quote from: apparition13;772597We are supposed to be self policing and better than that, this shows we aren't. So here's what I'm doing, I'm calling The Butcher, Novastar, Will, Marleycat, jeff37923, and Emperor Norton, and anyone I may have missed, out. I don't care if you think what you said was legit, you should have shut it, and you need to apologize for it. Make it flowery, make it a simple "I'm sorry", I don't care. Suck it up, do the right thing, and post an apology here, show we can be better than that.

No.

Quote from: jeff37923This tirade gave me a belly laugh.

Because really, fuck you gleichman for being such a pseudointellectual pussy that you have to use your own son's honorable military service as a shield to protect your hurt feelings over a gaming discussion.

Is nothing to be apologized for.

G - dog himself is probably laughing in his bunker now how well he trolled RPGsite, first by, as usual, playing on everyone's nerves, then dropping his son into the mix and quickly hiding behind his mention as soon as he's attacked. Especially as it's actually him that upped the ante.

Edit: Alright, I read it. Good grief people, do you need to really stoop so low to take on as pathetic of a troll as gleichmann? Come on, you need to dangle Champions in front of his face, or the fact that he apparently does not believe in circumstantial modifiers as "unfair" to make him trip on his own "wargaming" legs. That really was uncalled for.

QuoteI'm tired of people who make online fora the personal playground for their crusades and vendettas. If this community does not act quickly, it will have become a second rpg.net, except with not-safe-for-work language and imagery allowed to briefly interrupt its social hysteria. And in that case, I'll follow Melan, Benoist, and the others who have already left this forum as no longer a constructive, comfortable, and wortwhile social outlet for RPG discussions. I guess the community is already at the rear end of this development, so the only thing I regret is that this wasn't raised as an issue much earlier. Good luck everyone, and in closing - my sympathies to gleichman for this treatment, and the RPG hobby is richer for his making it clear that he doesn't want to be part of this community, not even in the difficult role he chose for himself over the past years.

Oh, please. Attacking kids is shit, but those who quit are usually exactly those who started with various vendettas themselves, not being able to dish out as much as they take.

And yes, I can understand the point of the risk of forum grudges and "forum reputation", but ultimately - there's no way for it not to form, because that's just how humans work. Gleichmann has been routinely waggling his cock in people's faces with theories that are bound to cause a raise, and double - downing and insulting them when they didn't like them. Tje floodgate opened as people started in cashing the checks he's been writing over and over. Hells' bells, I know I'm an horrible bastard here, and I don't expect people to magically forgive me whenever I argue with them. Cliques suck, but what can you do - little. Though I do agree that yes, they suck.

Were people fair to Gleichmann? No. But neither was he fair to them. Ultimately, people were offended, and we might actually loose some good posters over one troll, who might've once actually try to indulge in a conversation rather than stand on a soapbox and talk how much superior a way he developed in 80s was to everyone else's, gets shitpiled, as they quit in disgust over the shitpile. But let's not pretend Gleichmann is a poor innocent boy that was dogpiled by RPGsite's mean kids - he was a man who never managed to get a posse to dogpile others it seemed more like, as his ardent, anti - conversationalist and preaching stance seemed.

Was the kid thing necessary? Bloody hells, no. But he was pushing buttons all the time, so it's quite logical that eventually, things spin out of hand. He's not a lone voice of dissent being silenced, he's a man who's been tearing at so many throats, and yet is surprised when he throws a tantrum showing finally weakness that everyone jumps on that breach in the armour. This time, the breach was opened in such a way, he can finally do what he always wanted to - leave in a huff while feeling morally superior, with someone actually patting him on the way out.

Gleichman will be back...like herpes.

His "reaction" to Novastar was classic Gleichman and absolutely hysterical. I freaking love Gleichman's flame outs. It's almost a shame we have to wait a few months before we will again be "blessed" with his next trolling.

He'll be back...because who the fuck else will tolerate his shit?

Is this site nasty and vicious? Yeah, that's the price of free speech. That's the ugly part of free speech nobody likes to admit. You can't have free speech and "decency" or "protection for everyone's feels" or "only intellectual banter" - if you want free speech, you get the "good speech" and the "bad speech" too.

Do I want more Signal vs. Noise on theRPGsite? Hell yeah, but not at the cost of our freedom of speech. The best way to increase the Signal vs. Noise is for ALL OF US (and I will say me first) to put more energy into improving RPG threads and less energy into bullshit forum wank and spank.

May we all gain the wisdom to know which is which.

He brought up his one son early in the thread and kept referring to his son. If he didn't want his family involved, don't bring it up.

He repeatedly denigrated folks who don't stick to rules.

He then trawled for offense with his whole 'I'm sure you want my patriotic son killed horribly, you bastards!'

When that DIDN'T WORK, he pretended it did for drama.

I mean, seriously. Read he post he flamed out on. I reread it three times looking for an edit note, because his reaction seemed utterly unrelated.

The post didn't mention his son who was serving. Instead, it pointed out 'hey, wait, if you're bringing up stuff about your sons... don't you realize this logical conclusion of your posts? Think about it.'

That's... not directing anything negative toward either of his sons (whom Gleichman brought up).


I had nothing negative to say about G until he started talking. He hangs on his words, however much he'd desperately like to recast things as a cabal of stalkers and conspirators trying to make some random game guy look bad.

Quote from: Will;772656I had nothing negative to say about G until he started talking.

:rotfl:

Yeah, that's how it usually goes.

This is a site about RPGs. We enjoy the ability here to discuss RPGs and gaming freely, but there's also such a thing as accountability and responsibility.

Let's face it--we definitely have some posters that are more concerned seemingly with trolling and single-note posts rather than creating actual content, writing reviews, or doing more than drive-bys in threads. It's disappointing, and more than a bit sad, when I think of some of the vibrancy of posting and unique characters that have left this board.

I'm not out to turn this into some free speech issue or anything else, but I think the site would be a better place if more of us focused on the love of gaming, gaming design, and trading opinions with a baseline of respect, even in times of the warmest disagreements. I've certainly not always been the best at that myself, but for me, I'm going to pledge very hard to make contributions that make this a better place, take accountability for what I post, encourage gaming, and help make cool stuff. I'm going to say right here and now I'm going to focus on reviews and my upcoming Gen Con coverage. I hope others find their own great way to provide content and contribute.

I think if we all spent more time on gaming, less on drama, and did just one thoughtful post, review, or actual play write-up a week, this forum would live up to the hopes and ideals many of us had for it.

This isn't the type of board to ban someone unless things go very, very far indeed, so all this is really is an appeal. Let's do awesome stuff, and leave dogpiles, one-notes, drive-bys, and the extremes of drama to other places.

I strongly urge people if you don't care for how someone posts, put them on ignore and think twice about posting in threads started by them.

This is a pretty open forum, which means that trolls, or people whom you perceive to be trolling, are going to swing by. The best way to get rid of them is to starve them of attention. If someone else is having a conversation with someone you don't like or if you don't care for the convo, then just move on. I know Gleichman has a strong personality (let's leave it at that) but you people weren't just attacking him, you were being extremely rude to me and the others who thought there was something worth discussing.

Ultimately if Gleichman or anyone else takes a crazy or dishonest stance in a discussion, even the people who engage that individual can just back off. When somebody seems crazy to you, they probably seem crazy to others as well. Your point is made, done.

Incidentally, this is why I would like the site to have a +1 feature (note, not a downvote or -1, just +1) because I think if you can see that folks are +ing your post in droves, and nobody is supporting the other poster, you might realize it's not really worth your time to engage in the "somebody is wrong on the internet" thing.

Quote from: Arminius;772750I strongly urge people if you don't care for how someone posts, put them on ignore and think twice about posting in threads started by them.

This is a pretty open forum, which means that trolls, or people whom you perceive to be trolling, are going to swing by. The best way to get rid of them is to starve them of attention. If someone else is having a conversation with someone you don't like or if you don't care for the convo, then just move on. I know Gleichman has a strong personality (let's leave it at that) but you people weren't just attacking him, you were being extremely rude to me and the others who thought there was something worth discussing.

Ultimately if Gleichman or anyone else takes a crazy or dishonest stance in a discussion, even the people who engage that individual can just back off. When somebody seems crazy to you, they probably seem crazy to others as well. Your point is made, done.

Incidentally, this is why I would like the site to have a +1 feature (note, not a downvote or -1, just +1) because I think if you can see that folks are +ing your post in droves, and nobody is supporting the other poster, you might realize it's not really worth your time to engage in the "somebody is wrong on the internet" thing.

I agree. Gleichman can surely get on nerves, but when it comes to his point of view on games, it's very specific, but thoughtful. In my mind it's not too different from Pundit, you have to look past the bluster and read the point.

Ultimately, there was an actual discussion going on, and it derailed. The fact that the thread included posters who had no other interest than to wind things up is pretty shabby.

I suggest people reread the thread.

G mentioned his son in the first post, and said he screwed up. There was some reasonable chatter. Last post of first page, G starts in on value judgments about how 'this is what's wrong with the industry today.'

So move on or put him on ignore. Don't play the stupid hyenas and zebras game; this isn't RPGnet.

Quote from: Arminius;772750I strongly urge people if you don't care for how someone posts, put them on ignore and think twice about posting in threads started by them.

I didn't post in that thread, nor have I read it. It's Gleichman. What he says is neither informative nor entertaining. He's just a cocksmock.

All we're doing is rolling dice, eating snacks and telling tall stories. Sure, there's a bit more to it all than that, but that's what it comes down to and it's not something to get emotional about.

Unless of course you go diceless, that is just beyond the pale. It's almost as bad as not bringing snacks. Cunts.

I thought I'd give the thread a little time to shake out a bit before responding.

Quote from: The Butcher;772605My initial comment was a joke. I'm pretty sure almost everyone here is old enough to remember what one of those looks like.

Jokes depend on the audience. The problem in this case is Gleichman is under personal attack from multiple vectors, so he's going to read it uncharitably. In his situation I would have read it as "wait, you mean to tell me that stupid, moronic asshole found someone gullible or stupid enough to pair off with? That's just wrong, he doesn't deserve respect, let alone love".

QuoteGleichman felt the necessity to reply, sharing personal family information with everyone, and took the opportunity to level a particularly virulent accusation — that we would wish for the death of a human being just to spite him — at the board as a whole ("you bastards").

Sure, you challenged him, so re replied. The "virulent accusation" though wasn't a surprise to me at all given all the PAs he had already taken in the thread. If he's been attacked on just about every grounds he could have been, why should being attacked through family be a surprise? And note, he did get attacked through his family, though not in the way he suggested it might.

QuoteI was even considerate enough of his bitterness to allay his completely baseless fears of anyone wishing ill upon his family; congratulated him on said family; and, horror of horrors, ended it with what I considered at the time a good-natured ribbing (post #188).

Hey, I appreciated that. Kudos on seeing what had happened and trying to do something about it. Unfortunately the cat was already out of the bag.

Sacrosanct: he wasn't hiding behind his kids, he was expressing pride in them, but also what I would say was legitimate cynicism that, given the attacks he had already been subject to, someone would turn that against him as well. Though thankfully not in the manner he thought.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;772621I have to agree with the posters expressing dissapointment in that thread. I realize people have issues with gleichman, that he can be provocative, but i also think he didn't come out of that thread looking like the one to blame for it. I feel things have become more personal and hostile, and do believe we can do better. We have free speech here, that is part of the site's core principles. I do think people could be exercizing that a bit better than they have of late. I don't think folks involved realize how bad the thread reads. That was pretty much every poster on the thread, with a handful of exceptions, attacking the guy in a way that just comes off like bullying. It was the internet equivalent of holding someone down and kicking them while they are on the ground. Once it reaches that point, it doesn't matter if the person deserves it or not. There is smack talk, but then there is stuff like you had on this thread.

I for one wouldn't mind seeing more points of view explored rather than squashed down first thing.

Well put, there is a responsibility that goes along with the right to free speech.

Quote from: jeff37923;772627Likewise, a poster should not try to use his family members as shields when they feel attacked whether they are or not. Gleichman brought up his son's military service in a manner that shows he expected someone to take a potshot at that in an attempt to garner sympathy in a gaming discussion.

He'd gotten pot shots about everything else, why not expect it from this angle?

QuoteNo.

Disappointing, but not surprising. I was hoping at least one of you would apologize, but given getting called out is going to result in righteous indignation I wasn't really expecting anything.

QuoteIs nothing to be apologized for.

I think different. Getting caught up in mob behavior and going too far is both something to apologize for and something to learn from, so next time one can recognize the situation and respond better.

Quote from: Rincewind1;772629Was the kid thing necessary? Bloody hells, no. But he was pushing buttons all the time, so it's quite logical that eventually, things spin out of hand. He's not a lone voice of dissent being silenced, he's a man who's been tearing at so many throats, and yet is surprised when he throws a tantrum showing finally weakness that everyone jumps on that breach in the armour. This time, the breach was opened in such a way, he can finally do what he always wanted to - leave in a huff while feeling morally superior, with someone actually patting him on the way out.

My question is what do you do when things do spin out of hand? It may be perfectly predictable that people would attack a chink in the armor, but is it right to do so in this way, and if it isn't how do you deal with it afterwards? I'm not suggesting people kowtow and beg his forgiveness, I'm not even suggesting people need to be sincere. But it seems to me this is a situation where an apology, even if grudging, is called for.

Quote from: Will;772656The post didn't mention his son who was serving. Instead, it pointed out 'hey, wait, if you're bringing up stuff about your sons... don't you realize this logical conclusion of your posts? Think about it.'

Except that comment was at worst a PA directed at me, and it didn't bug me that much since I could see how much shit Gleichman was getting thrown at him. It wasn't a problem until Novastar applied a little spin and turned it into an attack, and several other people uncritically accepted that spin as the truth and used "you just said your kid is stupid (he didn't, he suggested I was stupid)" as a club to beat him with. It was like watching what passes for political punditry in this country, with an added helping of "and he's a crappy father".

It's over the line, even for this hive of scum and villainy. And I usually like the Mos Eisleyesque nature of this forum.

Quote from: Arminius;772776So move on or put him on ignore. Don't play the stupid hyenas and zebras game; this isn't RPGnet.

That's what I like, simple solutions. These two sentences can be the tl,dr for this thread.

Quote from: apparition13;772966Sacrosanct: he wasn't hiding behind his kids, he was expressing pride in them, but also what I would say was legitimate cynicism that, given the attacks he had already been subject to, someone would turn that against him as well. Though thankfully not in the manner he thought.

Yeah he did.  He pulled the, "If you say anything bad about me, then you want my kids to die."  Just a slight variation on the classic, "If you disagree, you must hate puppies." angle.

And the reason I took offense at it is because as a veteran myself, his statement implies that if I call him an asshole for being an asshole, then I become a dirtbag hypocrite by wishing ill on veterans.  It was a cowardly cop out to avoid taking accountability for his own actions but to shift the blame to people calling him out as being horrible people.

QuoteHe'd gotten pot shots about everything else, why not expect it from this angle?.

He got pots shots for things he himself has directly said/done.  No one took pot shots at him for things his family or friends or anyone else did.  If you can't see this fundamental difference, not sure what to tell you.

His _first post_ is 'my son messed up GMing a game, and here's why that sort of thing is a horrible thing people should avoid.'

I'm a father of twins. I'm sure at some point I'll post something stupid about them, and people will call me on it. I'll then hopefully take the hit and move on.

Quote from: Will;772970His _first post_ is 'my son messed up GMing a game, and here's why that sort of thing is a horrible thing people should avoid.'

I'm a father of twins. I'm sure at some point I'll post something stupid about them, and people will call me on it. I'll then hopefully take the hit and move on.

You bred?

Quote from: Zachary The First;772712This is a site about RPGs. We enjoy the ability here to discuss RPGs and gaming freely, but there's also such a thing as accountability and responsibility.

Let's face it--we definitely have some posters that are more concerned seemingly with trolling and single-note posts rather than creating actual content, writing reviews, or doing more than drive-bys in threads. It's disappointing, and more than a bit sad, when I think of some of the vibrancy of posting and unique characters that have left this board.

I'm not out to turn this into some free speech issue or anything else, but I think the site would be a better place if more of us focused on the love of gaming, gaming design, and trading opinions with a baseline of respect, even in times of the warmest disagreements. I've certainly not always been the best at that myself, but for me, I'm going to pledge very hard to make contributions that make this a better place, take accountability for what I post, encourage gaming, and help make cool stuff. I'm going to say right here and now I'm going to focus on reviews and my upcoming Gen Con coverage. I hope others find their own great way to provide content and contribute.

I think if we all spent more time on gaming, less on drama, and did just one thoughtful post, review, or actual play write-up a week, this forum would live up to the hopes and ideals many of us had for it.

This isn't the type of board to ban someone unless things go very, very far indeed, so all this is really is an appeal. Let's do awesome stuff, and leave dogpiles, one-notes, drive-bys, and the extremes of drama to other places.

Yes, it is sad, and yes, I agree with you. But at the same time - this isn't some poor lone misunderstood lamb that's walked into a hardcore trolling session. This is someone who has countless times said how much he spites this site. The assumption he wants a legitimate discussion is over by then. There are people who had been subjected to almost as bad pack hunt here, because they argued for "storygames are rpgs, you twats" (two_fish, soviet). And yet nobody was up in arms. Yes, line was crossed here. But it's a line he was working up a lot of people to cross for ages.

I do however agree, that we should focus on points, not posters. But that's a good thing in theory, but sort of bad in practice. For it to work you'd need to have full anonymity. Despite the droves of users, RPGsite isn't a very large forum, at least by forum standards - if grudges form on a bigger one such as TBP, why'd you not expect a much more hermetic society, where people spend more "time" with less amount of people, not form them?

Quote from: apparition13;772966My question is what do you do when things do spin out of hand? It may be perfectly predictable that people would attack a chink in the armor, but is it right to do so in this way, and if it isn't how do you deal with it afterwards? I'm not suggesting people kowtow and beg his forgiveness, I'm not even suggesting people need to be sincere. But it seems to me this is a situation where an apology, even if grudging, is called for.
.

I think an apology is good for crossing the line at hounding him, but at the same time - he should apologise as well, especially for the whole "YOU PROBABLY WISH MY KID DEAD, BASTARDS" line. He's been insulting people here left and right for ages.

How'd I handle it as well? Let me tell you something. I know I'm a right bastard, and I get on people's nerves here. I also know I can get into petty rivalries and go balls out stupid at times. But when that happens, I don't blame the entire world. I take a step back. Relax. Take time off. It's a bloody forum, not my workplace, I can afford to live without it for a month or two to calm down and/or for my interest to come back in it.

There's no excuse for dogpiling people, but there's also no excuse for waving your cock in everyone's face and expecting them to let you go, because you have a "strong personality" and we should "attack the argument, not the poster." Because that's how things work - when you have a history of arguing with someone, you lash out. That's where both sides should take a step back. And if you have a "strong personality", you may wish to learn a little tact.

All that said, I'd ultimately agree that yes, ignore and move on is the best thing to do. The problem is of course, when you have someone screaming for attention, it is kind of hard to ignore them.

I recommend everyone practice breeding! Often!

Quote from: Arminius;772750Incidentally, this is why I would like the site to have a +1 feature (note, not a downvote or -1, just +1)

Good idea, but it would be cooler if we had a "Hell yeah!" button and a "Fuck you!" button.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;772811Unless of course you go diceless, that is just beyond the pale. It's almost as bad as not bringing snacks. Cunts.

How much beer would I need to bring to offset the diceless penalty?

First of all, apparition13 and Rincewind, thanks for keeping a cool head and being reasonable. apparition13 in particular, I was pretty mad at your OP here, but that was a very reasonable response — even if I still disagree.

Quote from: apparition13;772966I thought I'd give the thread a little time to shake out a bit before responding.

I really only take exception with the idea that there's anything extraordinary with gleichman throwing a hissy fit and ragequitting the forum.

I am sorry he chose to take such deep-seated offense at what at the time I considered a harmless joke. But it immediately became apparent that he lends those discussions way more emotional weight than all other parts involved.

And of course, it begs the question of whether we should endeavor to make the forum emotionally safe for gleichman. Read that out loud a couple of times and hopefully you'll understand where I'm coming from.

Quote from: apparition13;772966That's what I like, simple solutions. These two sentences can be the tl,dr for this thread.

Sound advice for gleichman, too. ;)

Quote from: Rincewind1;772971There are people who had been subjected to almost as bad pack hunt here, because they argued for "storygames are rpgs, you twats" (two_fish, soviet). And yet nobody was up in arms. Yes, line was crossed here. But it's a line he was working up a lot of people to cross for ages.

That's part of what I was hinting at.

Quote from: Rincewind1;772971I think an apology is good for crossing the line at hounding him, but at the same time - he should apologise as well, especially for the whole "YOU PROBABLY WISH MY KID DEAD, BASTARDS" line. He's been insulting people here left and right for ages.

That'd be a compromise I could live with, but I don't see it happening.

Quote from: Will;772972I recommend everyone practice breeding! Often!

See. That's the sort of answer I expected. Honest.

Quote from: Spinachcat;772989How much beer would I need to bring to offset the diceless penalty?

There is no amount possible. If the game is diceless, I won't be there. Diceless games always turn emo-thespy, and are incomplete. Diceless roleplaying games are like porn without the money shot - it's fun, but there's something missing.

Think of that the next time you toss a handful on the table.

Quote from: The Butcher;773014And of course, it begs the question of whether we should endeavor to make the forum emotionally safe for gleichman.

Of course we should!  I'll get right on that.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;773025Think of that the next time you toss a handful on the table.

And that's why I only use white dice.

Hey, I prefer my porn without a money shot.

I'd rather ask a question if we should endeavour to make the forum emotionally safe, stop.

If so, I wonder how. Perhaps an open letter'd be a way to start.

Given that I'm friended to Gleichman I should probably say something. I've been ambivalent since it did seem that he was inviting attack with the 'and you probably wish he was dead', but... I expect he thought he had to provide extra information on his family (probably against his better judgment) since it was his son being quoted in the OP, and he was under heavy attack at the time. I would add that I think Novastar's line of argument did enrage him into quitting, rather than this being some deliberate ploy on his part.  did reach his quota of muckslinging, but he was one of the cleverer posters around, and his moving on is a loss to the site and gaming in general.

On the board culture question, I don't believe therpgsite has ever been what you would call an emotional safe zone, but I do commend a number of the people in this thread for their efforts.

Quote from: Arminius;772750I strongly urge people if you don't care for how someone posts, put them on ignore and think twice about posting in threads started by them.

This is a pretty open forum, which means that trolls, or people whom you perceive to be trolling, are going to swing by. The best way to get rid of them is to starve them of attention. If someone else is having a conversation with someone you don't like or if you don't care for the convo, then just move on. I know Gleichman has a strong personality (let's leave it at that) but you people weren't just attacking him, you were being extremely rude to me and the others who thought there was something worth discussing.

Ultimately if Gleichman or anyone else takes a crazy or dishonest stance in a discussion, even the people who engage that individual can just back off. When somebody seems crazy to you, they probably seem crazy to others as well. Your point is made, done.

Incidentally, this is why I would like the site to have a +1 feature (note, not a downvote or -1, just +1) because I think if you can see that folks are +ing your post in droves, and nobody is supporting the other poster, you might realize it's not really worth your time to engage in the "somebody is wrong on the internet" thing.

Quote from: Arminius;772776So move on or put him on ignore. Don't play the stupid hyenas and zebras game; this isn't RPGnet.

I find this comments most reasonable and correct, and I feel is someone we all could do.

I didn't even know that thread existed, and is very cringe-worthy. I do not understand why Gleichman keeps visiting a place he hates so much, and I don't care. I don't think is a good idea to engage him when he behaves in that manner.

Yeah, the guy ithinks that not playing by RAW is a dishonor and that if you do you are a terrible person. So fucking what? Are we seriously getting any concern about what a guy who lives God knows where and who is not part of our life in any significant manner has to say about how we play? He runs games his way, he's content with that, good for him.

Quote from: apparition13;772966He'd gotten pot shots about everything else, why not expect it from this angle?

Um, because by bringing up the possibility of his son's death in honorable military service and how his opponent's desired this, gleichman was trying to emotionally manipulate the reader?

Quote from: apparition13;772966Disappointing, but not surprising. I was hoping at least one of you would apologize, but given getting called out is going to result in righteous indignation I wasn't really expecting anything.

No, more like ambivalent what-the-fuck? than any kind of righteous indignation. I was honestly wondering what your own motivation was for doing this.

Quote from: apparition13;772966I think different. Getting caught up in mob behavior and going too far is both something to apologize for and something to learn from, so next time one can recognize the situation and respond better.

Sometimes the "mob" is right.

Quote from: Arminius;772750I strongly urge people if you don't care for how someone posts, put them on ignore and think twice about posting in threads started by them.

Quote from: JamesV;772760I agree. Gleichman can surely get on nerves, but when it comes to his point of view on games, it's very specific, but thoughtful. In my mind it's not too different from Pundit, you have to look past the bluster and read the point.

Ultimately, there was an actual discussion going on, and it derailed. The fact that the thread included posters who had no other interest than to wind things up is pretty shabby.

I agree too.

I mainly regret agreeing with Emperor Norton on it being disgusting, because I though he meant the personal attack was disgusting ... and I was sick of that thread and left it for a few days, and when I came back and found out that Norton thought the attack was good, I could not comment on it, because the thread had gotten locked.
Locking it was a good decision, though.

Sure, G seem to irritate people easily, but to me it has always seemed like he responds in kind.
His "problem" is more like that he seem to think of things in very distinct paths, and to others that cannot follow those, his reasoning seems off.

This is never going to be an emotionally safe environment as long as Pundit runs it, i expect.

However, as someone wiser than me says in their signature "Just because there is a lack of moderation, doesn't mean you should say every dickish thing in your head" or something similar.

Gleichman is an odd case, i'm perfectly capable of admitting. He does throw around absolutes, likes to question the morality of people who do or say certain things and generally gets under peoples' skin.

However, it seem to have become acceptable hereabouts to basically sling shit at him whenever he pops up, with very little regard to what he's actually saying in the thread at hand.

I expect Brian regrets bringing up his family at all - but that doesn't mean that we are absolved of responsibility in what followed.

Man up and admit that it went too far and that you're abdicating responsibility  for some pretty foul behavior.

Suggesting that a father is emotionally abusing his children is not right. He was harried and hassled until he said something he probably regrets and then got some pretty hateful stuff after that. This is bullying.

It's not the first time either is it? Koltar pretty much gets jumped on whenever he crops up and he's just a harmless old duffer.

This is not what i personally want from a low moderation board.

However, if that's what we get, then i expect the people involved to hold their hands up and admit "hey, it got out of hand. Sorry."

Barring that, do what Arminius suggests and use your ignore lists.

Quote from: Rincewind1;773069I'd rather ask a question if we should endeavour to make the forum emotionally safe, stop.

If so, I wonder how. Perhaps an open letter'd be a way to start.

No. This isn't that kind of forum. This is a forum that values free speech. And that is an important value for us to uphold. At the same time that doesn't mean all speech on the site is commendable or that folks should be jerks just because. That is the neccessary downside, not the upside, of our policies.

It became very clear to me some time ago Gleichman takes these exchanges more seriously than many think, and I agree with OHT that there seems to be an anything goes mentality when it comes to responding to Gleichman and guys like Koltar. Personally I find that sort of singling out for special treatment (even if folks feel justified by the poster's behavior) disheartening. Especially when, if you look past the insults and bluster, Gleichman is making actual arguments that a lot of folks failed to address.

I am not saying he is right, I even disagreed with him on the thread. But I gain a lot more as a poster hearing his points and weighing them, than by dismissing them because of how they are presented. I actually wish more folks took him seriously because at times we can become an echo-chamber around certain ideas and it is good have other perspectives like that (and I do realize he presents them in an absolutist way that can be infuriating----but then we do that with a lot of our ideas too, even if not to that degree).

FWIW, my view has it that he brought up the military angle as a dodge once he discovered he was in a painted corner.  For example, did we ever establish which son was the GM?  Of course not, because we simply didn't care - it doesn't change anything.  Gman added that slant.

Rewarding his discussion tactic via "shame on us" threads instead of calling him on his "you wish my son was dead" strawman would be the true bullshit.

I think it was the "Heisenburg" line that really sunk him.

I'll point out that we recently had a thread here which paralleled the RAW thread.

In it, several people (including myself) advocated for simple, concise descriptions of settings, and that being able to summarize a campaign into a single sheet was 'objectively better', generally, than... not.

People disagreed, there was some argument back and forth.

Despite people disagreeing on some very fundamental principles and claiming 'everyone should do X,' people managed not to call each other horrible plagues on gaming and nobody suggested other people were just itching to wish their family death and torture.

Quote from: mcbobbo;773127FWIW, my view has it that he brought up the military angle as a dodge once he discovered he was in a painted corner.  For example, did we ever establish which son was the GM?  Of course not, because we simply didn't care - it doesn't change anything.  Gman added that slant.

Rewarding his discussion tactic via "shame on us" threads instead of calling him on his "you wish my son was dead" strawman would be the true bullshit.

I think it was the "Heisenburg" line that really sunk him.

My view has it that he mentioned it because he's proud of his sons, and he mentioned it as a reply to the "you bred?" comment.
Of course I may remember it incorrectly.

So, the guy speaks in absolutes and some emotional exaggerations, and you mean that makes him a valid target?
Sure, it is obvious that he hadn't thought through the logical conclusions of his absolutes in combination that his example really was one of his sons.
It seems to me that he saw the "His son", "Son as GM", and "Criticizing GMs Harshly" lines of thoughts as three different lines of thoughts, so when his view of The usual Suspects went at him saying he really was criticizing his son .... he went on the "here it comes, they are attacking me through my son" instead of thinking through what he had said.
But then, "The usual suspects" did seem more interested in attacking him than trying to get him to understand what he had said.

On the other hand, if I give him what may seem as the benefit of doubt, then that courtesy should be extended to "The Usual Suspects" too.
But what remains then is simply what has been said at least 2 times before in this thread:
Use the ignore list, and think twice (or really, really hard) before posting in a thread made by someone you think are trolling or worse.

This site depends on collective non-forcible regulation of behaviours, rather than moderation of behaviors (outside of those behaviours that are egregiously disruptive to the site).

From what I've seen, the right response to the things that happened on that thread is this very thread.

RPGPundit

Quote from: One Horse Town;773103Suggesting that a father is emotionally abusing his children is not right.

Then would you consider publicly excoriating your offspring on an internet forum over a game ruling difference of opinion to be representative of what kind of behavior?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;773109......when it comes to responding to Gleichman and guys like Koltar. Personally I find that sort of singling out for special treatment......

Is there something specific you are referring to with that comment?

In the past 7 months I haven't posted as much as I used to because of two reasons:
1) Actual computer problems with my desktop PC...and internet connection issues

2) Jeff37923 being an ass in every thread that I either start or comment in. That knee-jerk posting of a video every damn time got old real fast.

 I go onto any forum to talk about role playing games  - not to get insulted.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Arminius;772776So move on or put him on ignore. Don't play the stupid hyenas and zebras game; this isn't RPGnet.

Bingo.  It seems like instead of enjoying the forum where you can be free of the "me too", dog piling, Zebrashow, we have way too many people lately deciding it's more fun to do it here.

The level of site-disrupting shitposting these days is orders of magnitude higher then what got, say, JDCorley banned, but since they're not trolling Pundit directly, it just keeps snowballing.

Quote from: apparition13;772966It's over the line, even for this hive of scum and villainy. And I usually like the Mos Eisleyesque nature of this forum.

It used to be a hive of scum and villiany, it's just working up to awfulpurple 2.0 now.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;773081I don't believe therpgsite has ever been what you would call an emotional safe zone, but I do commend a number of the people in this thread for their efforts.

We don't need an emotional safe zone, one where ideas could be expressed without every line of every post going through some Bizarro propaganda version of "Sophistry Telephone" would be nice.

Quote from: Koltar;773399Is there something specific you are referring to with that comment?

In the past 7 months I haven't posted as much as I used to because of two reasons:
1) Actual computer problems with my desktop PC...and internet connection issues

2) Jeff37923 being an ass in every thread that I either start or comment in. That knee-jerk posting of a video every damn time got old real fast.

 I go onto any forum to talk about role playing games  - not to get insulted.

- Ed C.

I was just referring to how I sometimes see posters attack you for no apparent reason.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;773109I am not saying he is right, I even disagreed with him on the thread. But I gain a lot more as a poster hearing his points and weighing them, than by dismissing them because of how they are presented. I actually wish more folks took him seriously because at times we can become an echo-chamber around certain ideas and it is good have other perspectives like that (and I do realize he presents them in an absolutist way that can be infuriating----but then we do that with a lot of our ideas too, even if not to that degree).

Yeah. I genuinely like Gleichman's posts and reading his point of view, even if I disagree with much of it. I don't consider him any more absolutist than anyone else here, he's just hostile in a different way than other posters; more blunt, less nasty.

We'd be a poorer place without his occasional visits.

Obviously, I am what is wrong with theRPGSite.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;773109It became very clear to me some time ago Gleichman takes these exchanges more seriously than many think, and I agree with OHT that there seems to be an anything goes mentality when it comes to responding to Gleichman and guys like Koltar. Personally I find that sort of singling out for special treatment (even if folks feel justified by the poster's behavior) disheartening. Especially when, if you look past the insults and bluster, Gleichman is making actual arguments that a lot of folks failed to address.

If you want to be a Preacher of Truth, Disdainful, you're either prepared to take the heat or don't walk into the flames.

QuoteI am not saying he is right, I even disagreed with him on the thread. But I gain a lot more as a poster hearing his points and weighing them, than by dismissing them because of how they are presented. I actually wish more folks took him seriously because at times we can become an echo-chamber around certain ideas and it is good have other perspectives like that (and I do realize he presents them in an absolutist way that can be infuriating----but then we do that with a lot of our ideas too, even if not to that degree).

Actually, you will be surprised, I did like some of his texts (most notably, the metagame one). However, he is an absolutely asinine poster, because recently his main argument is, when engaged intellectually, "Well, in my game...", which is frankly dishonest and pointless to argue on an intellectual basis - look how Estar engaged him over last couple of arguments (apologies to Estar for calling him into a thread he probably doesn't want to be in). Him quitting RPGsite is quite frankly good also for him, because he should lock himself away from the "plebs" in his ivory tower, and write there, since he obviously can't communicate with people, discussing his ideas without him actually present is probably much more beneficial to all.

Quote from: jeff37923;773517Obviously, I am what is wrong with theRPGSite.

Jeff, this is a tangent here, but - you need to let things go, man. You are a man who literally has to have a grudge against someone. You find a target, and engage them endlessly until they quit the forums. I like to think you're not a troll, just sometimes an horrible bastard.

Quote from: CRKrueger;773401Bingo.  It seems like instead of enjoying the forum where you can be free of the "me too", dog piling, Zebrashow, we have way too many people lately deciding it's more fun to do it here.

The level of site-disrupting shitposting these days is orders of magnitude higher then what got, say, JDCorley banned, but since they're not trolling Pundit directly, it just keeps snowballing.

Or maybe people should also leave some of their "strong personality" at the door, both ways? And yes, that is ironic coming from me, I know.

The problem is less that the site is ZOMG AWFULPURPLE 2.0 SOON, but that when people are challenged - both right and wrong - rather than try to engage, they quickly grow furious that their Internet ego is challenged. Now, don't get me wrong - I am as guilty of this as any other man or woman here. But if we want more civil discussions, we need less Internet Tough Hunter Thompsons, and more people who want to engage in a genuine discussion, rather than think anyone criticising them is a troll seeking to undermine their authority/respect/position whatever.

Quote from: Rincewind1;773524The problem is less that the site is ZOMG AWFULPURPLE 2.0 SOON, but that when people are challenged - both right and wrong - rather than try to engage, they quickly grow furious that their Internet ego is challenged. Now, don't get me wrong - I am as guilty of this as any other man or woman here. But if we want more civil discussions, we need less Internet Tough Hunter Thompsons, and more people who want to engage in a genuine discussion, rather than think anyone criticising them is a troll seeking to undermine their authority/respect/position whatever.

Actually I couldn't care less about my or anyone else's 'Internet ego", and anyone who thinks there's status to be had here is a misguided fool, as I said, it's Pundit and everybody else.  

It's the deliberately and purposely misquoting what someone is saying 6 posts in a row because they're wearing the wrong team jersey that I think we could do with a lot less of.  That's got fuck all to do with strength of personality, it's just about intellectual honesty or the total lack thereof.

Quote from: CRKrueger;773544Actually I couldn't care less about my or anyone else's 'Internet ego", and anyone who thinks there's status to be had here is a misguided fool, as I said, it's Pundit and everybody else.  

It's the deliberately and purposely misquoting what someone is saying 6 posts in a row because they're wearing the wrong team jersey that I think we could do with a lot less of.  That's got fuck all to do with strength of personality, it's just about intellectual honesty or the total lack thereof.

The latter I agree with - as to the first paragraph, I speak of what I consider a root of the problem that may cause the latter.

Quote from: apparition13But secondly, twisting it into an attack on his own son is textbook taking something out of context and using it to attack someone.

No, it's taking one in context comment, and applying it to previous statements. Gleichman's own "consistent logic". Gleichman's also the first to tell you words have meaning, and very specific meaning. It's the foundation of his "Rules > Rulings" philosophy of OneTrueWayism.

I cannot help that pointing out his logic of being a dick to us, means he's also being a dick to his son. It's up to Brian to stop being a dick.

If Gleichman really wants people to stop treating him like a horrible human being?
Then he should stop acting like a horrible human being. End of line.

Quote from: RPGPundit;773189This site depends on collective non-forcible regulation of behaviours, rather than moderation of behaviors (outside of those behaviours that are egregiously disruptive to the site).

From what I've seen, the right response to the things that happened on that thread is this very thread.

RPGPundit

If people start exercising a little more restraint, perhaps pause a second to ask if that's really what they want to say, or how they want to say it, I'd say it has served it's purpose re. the site.

Quote from: Rincewind1;773069I'd rather ask a question if we should endeavour to make the forum emotionally safe, stop.

If so, I wonder how. Perhaps an open letter'd be a way to start.

It doesn't need to be emotionally safe. The attraction is being able to say your piece without second guessing every damned word because you're going to run afoul of moderation. To quote Heinlein:

Quote from: the notebooks of Lazarus LongMoving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untraveled, the naive, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as "empty," "meaningless," or "dishonest," and scorn to use them. No matter how "pure" their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too well at best.

We just need a little more lube.

Quote from: jeff37923;773087No, more like ambivalent what-the-fuck? than any kind of righteous indignation. I was honestly wondering what your own motivation was for doing this.

To quote Faith, "because it's wrong". I saw behavior I didn't like, including on my part, so I said something. Is that so far-fetched?

Quote from: One Horse Town;773103*snip* stuff I agree with

I agree with all of this. Low moderation means almost all of the site moderation needs to be self-moderation. In my case, I find hitting "preview post" helps me cut out some of the BS.  

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;773109No. This isn't that kind of forum. This is a forum that values free speech. And that is an important value for us to uphold. At the same time that doesn't mean all speech on the site is commendable or that folks should be jerks just because. That is the neccessary downside, not the upside, of our policies.

It became very clear to me some time ago Gleichman takes these exchanges more seriously than many think, and I agree with OHT that there seems to be an anything goes mentality when it comes to responding to Gleichman and guys like Koltar. Personally I find that sort of singling out for special treatment (even if folks feel justified by the poster's behavior) disheartening. Especially when, if you look past the insults and bluster, Gleichman is making actual arguments that a lot of folks failed to address.

I am not saying he is right, I even disagreed with him on the thread. But I gain a lot more as a poster hearing his points and weighing them, than by dismissing them because of how they are presented. I actually wish more folks took him seriously because at times we can become an echo-chamber around certain ideas and it is good have other perspectives like that (and I do realize he presents them in an absolutist way that can be infuriating----but then we do that with a lot of our ideas too, even if not to that degree).

Agreed here as well. The more liberty you have, the more responsibility you have to use it responsibly. And while I don't much agree with Gleichman, his viewpoint is one that isn't common, and is therefore useful since it stretches my intellectual boundaries.

Quote from: Catelf;773186My view has it that he mentioned it because he's proud of his sons, and he mentioned it as a reply to the "you bred?" comment.
Of course I may remember it incorrectly.

Nope, perfectly correct.

QuoteSo, the guy speaks in absolutes and some emotional exaggerations, and you mean that makes him a valid target?
Sure, it is obvious that he hadn't thought through the logical conclusions of his absolutes in combination that his example really was one of his sons.
It seems to me that he saw the "His son", "Son as GM", and "Criticizing GMs Harshly" lines of thoughts as three different lines of thoughts, so when his view of The usual Suspects went at him saying he really was criticizing his son .... he went on the "here it comes, they are attacking me through my son" instead of thinking through what he had said.
But then, "The usual suspects" did seem more interested in attacking him than trying to get him to understand what he had said.

On the other hand, if I give him what may seem as the benefit of doubt, then that courtesy should be extended to "The Usual Suspects" too.

I really don't think there was enough ambiguity on the part of the usual suspects to justify extending them the benefit of doubt in this case. Earlier in the thread, maybe. But not later.

Quote from: Koltar;773399Is there something specific you are referring to with that comment?

 I go onto any forum to talk about role playing games  - not to get insulted.

- Ed C.

He just meant you're someone else who gets targeted whenever they show up. I don't think I've ever seen this site when there wasn't at least one person who wasn't considered fair game by some subset of the posting population.

Quote from: CRKrueger;773403We don't need an emotional safe zone, one where ideas could be expressed without every line of every post going through some Bizarro propaganda version of "Sophistry Telephone" would be nice.

I'd just like to say the bolded bit is a right clever turn of phrase.

Quote from: jeff37923;773517Obviously, I am what is wrong with theRPGSite.

There's that scene in Terminator where Arnie is responding to the, I think motel manager, and we see a list of potential responses, the last of which is "fuck you asshole". He jumps straight to the bottom of the list; I'm suggesting we use the other responses more often.

Quote from: Novastar;773658No, it's taking one in context comment,

and applying it to previous statements.

That's textbook using things out of context. Taking something that makes sense in one place, and applying it to something said somewhere else.

QuoteIf Gleichman really wants people to stop treating him like a horrible human being?
Then he should stop acting like a horrible human being. End of line.

I think you were over the line. Apparently you don't. Riddle me this though, can you think of anything you could do that would be over the line? Because what you write here could be used to justify a whole lot of horrible.

Quote from: Novastar;773658No, it's taking one in context comment, and applying it to previous statements. Gleichman's own "consistent logic". Gleichman's also the first to tell you words have meaning, and very specific meaning. It's the foundation of his "Rules > Rulings" philosophy of OneTrueWayism.

I cannot help that pointing out his logic of being a dick to us, means he's also being a dick to his son. It's up to Brian to stop being a dick.

If Gleichman really wants people to stop treating him like a horrible human being?
Then he should stop acting like a horrible human being. End of line.

See, we can help it. We don't have to bring families into it. We can look at ideas, and talk about gaming, instead of bringing in stuff that really has nothing to do with gaming. That falls under personal responsibility. We have the ability to exercise restraint, ignore the pointless stuff, and talk about what originally brought us together in this hobby.

There was a pretty good discussion going that I'm afraid is getting blocked out by this sort of thinking. To say we "cannot help ourselves" is a sad state, indeed. I think we can, and I think many of us can contribute really positive discussion to the site.

Ultimately, it's up to each of us to decide how we want to contribute to this site. But I do think we can all do better--myself included, certainly!

It was a pretty good discussion so long as people ignored half of what Gleichman said, including a persistent griping about people being stupid antagonistic idiots who were constantly trying to pull one over on the GM.

It would have been awesome if, when Novastar pointed out the logical consequence of his comments, Gleichman had gone 'huh, you know, you're right. I'll yoke back on the unnecessary condemnation' and focused on a more positive focus.

Quote from: Zachary The First;773694We don't have to bring families into it.

And...I never said a damn thing about either of his boys.

I SAID he was an awful person, if he ACTUALLY said those things to them, like he does to us. That logically following his own statements, he's damning at least the one child, at the same time he's damning us.

His comments are just a little bit subtler than saying, "You're not as stupid as you look!" to his own children, if he does it knowingly.

Sorry, but fuck that shit.

...

...I also asked like three questions before the comment (in two different posts), which Gleichman never addressed. And, of course, it's not like he's ever run from an argument before...especially when it fucks with the conclusions he's arrived at, before even asking.

tl;dr version

Quintesson: "Silence! Or else you will be held in contempt of court!"
Hot Rod: "I have nothing BUT contempt for this court..."

Quote from: apparition13;773692We just need a little more lube.

Would that Gleichman take your advice, this whole debacle would have been avoided.

QuoteThat's textbook using things out of context. Taking something that makes sense in one place, and applying it to something said somewhere else.

No, it is not.
If I used the one line to claim he was a Nazi, or his son is a pigfucker, that would be taking it out of context.

He has stated (repeatedly) that anyone who plays a certain way, is lacking in intelligence and a lesser human being. I merely pointed out that the brush he was painting with, hits a lot of people, including his own son apparently.

QuoteI think you were over the line.

Cause apparently Gleichman can call me and other posters cumstains, but God forbid I point out his statements could be offensive to his own children, as well.

QuoteApparently you don't.

I think Gleichman could be interesting, if he could treat people in general with something approaching common human decency.
I have commented in the past that I think he could play a mean game of chess, or wargame of choice.

QuoteRiddle me this though, can you think of anything you could do that would be over the line? Because what you write here could be used to justify a whole lot of horrible.

Actually insult his kids? Make up shit? Track him down and smear him in bacon grease?

Seriously, how far should I go with this?

Gleichman's a fucking rude prick, who has an inflated value of his own intellect, and doesn't like being proved wrong. Congrats, he's 20% of the people that post on the Internet in the former, and 100% in the latter. I'm not fucking stalking the dude, I didn't go on his website to cherry pick out quotes to "trip him up"; I used what he posted in the thread, which I'm sorry, was pretty damned fucked up with to begin with.

This isn't a court. It's not an interrogation, or a demand, or a trial, or anything else. No one is getting banned, and no one here is about to become a martyr for freedom. It's pointing out that a fair amount of discussion on this board has devolved into people trolling or simply going around with the same posters over and over again.

I think we should hold conversation to a higher standard. Exercise a bit of restraint, stop justifying dogpiling, and actually look to the ideas being expressed, not easy points or derailing the discussion. I know some folks don't feel they had any fault in the thread. But I would say when some of us--who have been on this board for a long time, and are not exactly known as totalitarians or shrinking violets in any sense of the term--all have a genuine issue with the level and quality of discussion, it might at least give pause for a moment. If not, well, ok; we're all responsible for ourselves. I've said my piece, but I know we can all do better.

Really, if folks are engaged in a conversation (which several individuals in this thread have mentioned having their discussion with Gleichman derailed in that thread), and people pop in to snipe, I don't think that's doing any good. There's an ignore button for a reason, the same as there's the intellectual freedom to ignore a thread, or stay away from that which discourages actual discussion.

I'm sorry; I don't mean to sound preachy or talk down in any way. I'm just disappointed in the overall level of discussion here lately; looking at my own posting history, I've been as guilty as anyone. I've said my piece, and I hope to do better going forward.

Maybe you should give that missive to Gleichman, if and when he returns.

I'll behave, IF he can.

Quote from: Novastar;773736Maybe you should give that missive to Gleichman, if and when he returns.

I'll behave, IF he can.

I think it applies to us all equally, not just any one of us.

With that, I guess I've said what I wanted to say here. Back on to gaming stuff!

I have him on IL for a reason and never would have known the little that I do know except for other people quoting him here and there but I do apologize if I ever said a thing about about his family (I didn't). But I don't apologize for thinking he's a mean spirited asshole.

Quote from: Marleycat;773747I have him on IL for a reason and never would have known the little that I do know except for other people quoting him here and there but I do apologize if I ever said a thing about about his family (I didn't). But I don't apologize for thinking he's a mean spirited asshole.

Did anyone actually say anything about his family aside from gliechman himself?

Quote from: Nexus;773750Did anyone actually say anything about his family aside from gliechman himself?

How would I know? I literally found out Gleichman created the damn topic while I was in a decent conversation about something brought up in the thread pages later.

A bunch of us said nice things about his son in the service.

Because we're such assholes.

Quote from: Marleycat;773752How would I know? I literally found out Gleichman created the damn topic while I was in a decent conversation about something brought up in the thread pages later.

It was more a question to the general thread.

Quote from: Nexus;773764It was more a question to the general thread.

Beyond Butcher's joke I saw nothing but respect for his son in the military. Most of us here respect and understand what's real compared to elf games.

Now now, not too much of massaging of prostates here - there was a lot of unnecessary jumping down on his throat as he was already down, that ultimately derailed the thread for the few insane or naive to engage him honestly (or just talk to each other).

Quote from: Rincewind1;773524Jeff, this is a tangent here, but - you need to let things go, man. You are a man who literally has to have a grudge against someone. You find a target, and engage them endlessly until they quit the forums. I like to think you're not a troll, just sometimes an horrible bastard.

Quote from: apparition13;773692There's that scene in Terminator where Arnie is responding to the, I think motel manager, and we see a list of potential responses, the last of which is "fuck you asshole". He jumps straight to the bottom of the list; I'm suggesting we use the other responses more often.

Here's the thing, though. Sometimes the best response to someone is to be that horrible bastard and say, "Fuck you, asshole."

Gleichman brought up his son and his son's military service in order to emotionally manipulate the readers and it has worked on you two. It is a despicable tactic.

Koltar hates that I give him shit about his Klingon cosplay but has conveniently managed to miss those times when I have admitted to picking on him while also noting that he has managed to do more to make the world a better place through his Klingon cosplay than all the social justice warriors combined because he got off his ass and did something instead of just masturbating about it on the Internet. Then again, I loathe Roddenberry, a cardinal sin to a Trekkie.

And all of you need to get a better grip on the concept of sarcasm.

Quote from: jeff37923;773839Here's the thing, though. Sometimes the best response to someone is to be that horrible bastard and say, "Fuck you, asshole."

Gleichman brought up his son and his son's military service in order to emotionally manipulate the readers and it has worked on you two. It is a despicable tactic.

And all of you need to get a better grip on the concept of sarcasm.

So, when someone says something as an answer to someone else, and briefly adds something that he's proud of (or else he would not have mentioned it at all, as it was unimportant to the topic), you automatically assumes that that someone is just adding it to manipulate.
Well, I think you have gotten too used to politicians.

Thing is, I have no love as such for military in general in reality, and if I have any at all, it is purely game-based.
But, despite that, I saw no manipulative purpose with how he expressed himself when mentioning that detail.

Also, that comment you made there, on "emotional manipulation" followed (after a paragraph on Koltar that I removed because I do not know what that was about,) by a comment on sarcasm ...
My initial reaction was to consider adding the response in the beginning of the quote .. but I won't.
It do shows me though why you would think that Gleichman was manipulative when it is possible that he wasn't:
You know (and use)triggers, so you assume G is using triggers, too.
But you might say that you aren't using triggers, and you may even believe that yourself.
It is possible that G uses triggers with his absolutes, but if he does, I doubt that he is aware of it.

Is this perhaps what all this is about?
Triggers of the sort that makes some easily jump to the abrasive responses?
(I grew up with someone that was good at using triggers, and I wished to not get effected by such, nor to ever use those myself. Perhaps that is helping me here .. It feels awkward, though.)

While I have no cow in this race myself, and the Zebras & Hyenas game is abhorrent to me, I think Jeff37923 and Rincewind1 both make good points. As far as I can see as a fairly Neutral observer, Gleichmann brought it on himself. That doesn't really excuse the dogpiling in that thread, but I can't see him as a victim in it either.

"Vil du være med på leken får du tåle steken", as we say in my country.

Quote from: The Ent;773881While I have no cow in this race myself, and the Zebras & Hyenas game is abhorrent to me, I think Jeff37923 and Rincewind1 both make good points. As far as I can see as a fairly Neutral observer, Gleichmann brought it on himself. That doesn't really excuse the dogpiling in that thread, but I can't see him as a victim in it either.

"Vil du være med på leken får du tåle steken", as we say in my country.

That saying has equals in other languages, and I think it even has several in English.
The problem with that saying is that this is not a game, games are what we are talking about.
G seems quite secluded in himself to begin with, and someone that is secluded do not answer to attacks well, and attacked is what he was.
Sure, he failed to see connections in his reasoning, but too many used that flaw and that info, to attack him.

However, Jeff seem to think that G was manipulating people in the thread, so I guess that explains why he thought it was ok to attack.

Quote from: Catelf;773903That saying has equals in other languages, and I think it even has several in English.
The problem with that saying is that this is not a game, games are what we are talking about.
G seems quite secluded in himself to begin with, and someone that is secluded do not answer to attacks well, and attacked is what he was.
Sure, he failed to see connections in his reasoning, but too many used that flaw and that info, to attack him.

However, Jeff seem to think that G was manipulating people in the thread, so I guess that explains why he thought it was ok to attack.

I Get what you're saying.
(The saying I was quoting isn't just about Games mind, "if you want to join the game you got to stand the pain", sure, literally, but you know. That covers lots of stuff. Like internet brawls.)

He was attacked sure but. He has history here. Jeff, Rince and others - well I can't speak for them, but as far as I can see they've had enough interactions with him that they're not giving him the benefit of the doubt any more. I Don't feel that they can be fairly Criticized for that really. I've seen enough of the posts of all these three posters that I have to agree with Rince & Jeff - sure they can be harsh bastards, but Gleichmann frequently comes across pretty trollish.

Other posters with no such history re: Gleichmann have no excuse to go dogpile him though. As I said, I find dogpiling to be distasteful.

Once again, I have to return to my saying.

If Gleichmann can't handle a beating, then he shouldn't go about starting fights.

It's really that simple.

He's a grown man, with grown children even.

If he wants an emotionally safe place to rant, there's TBP.

And, secluded? He has a Family, apparently.

I don't care for Gliechman's style of writing or the way he present his ideas. This time I tried to refrain from telling him quit arguing like a prick. As that gotten gotten me nowhere in the past.

My first reaction to him mentioning his son was "This is not going to end well." His post was harshly critical and from personal experience a parent being harshly critical of their son or daughter in public often produces strong reactions in people. With the conversation revolving around that instead of the original point.

On the other hand posters should realize that ANY comment on Gliechman criticizing his son or Gliechman's family was also not going to end well. It just needed to avoided or ignored altogether by both sides. But that didn't happen.

As for me I tried to only refer to his son in my posts as the referee, or a similar impersonal term. I had no interest in talking about his family or engaging in commentary about his style of parenting. I am willing to give him this much slack. Also I know pointing out how he argues is near useless so I tried to refrain from doing that.

The other thing I got was trying to argue with the guy without his rules in front of me is not going to work. So I ordered them from lulu.

Which I guess must of have pissed him off because he tore down his lulu store.

And god help me as I actually got the point of a post of his this time.

Anyway that my opinion on the matter.

Quote from: Catelf;773864So, when someone says something as an answer to someone else, and briefly adds something that he's proud of (or else he would not have mentioned it at all, as it was unimportant to the topic), you automatically assumes that that someone is just adding it to manipulate.
Well, I think you have gotten too used to politicians.

Thing is, I have no love as such for military in general in reality, and if I have any at all, it is purely game-based.
But, despite that, I saw no manipulative purpose with how he expressed himself when mentioning that detail.

Also, that comment you made there, on "emotional manipulation" followed (after a paragraph on Koltar that I removed because I do not know what that was about,) by a comment on sarcasm ...
My initial reaction was to consider adding the response in the beginning of the quote .. but I won't.
It do shows me though why you would think that Gleichman was manipulative when it is possible that he wasn't:
You know (and use)triggers, so you assume G is using triggers, too.
But you might say that you aren't using triggers, and you may even believe that yourself.
It is possible that G uses triggers with his absolutes, but if he does, I doubt that he is aware of it.

Is this perhaps what all this is about?
Triggers of the sort that makes some easily jump to the abrasive responses?
(I grew up with someone that was good at using triggers, and I wished to not get effected by such, nor to ever use those myself. Perhaps that is helping me here .. It feels awkward, though.)

Triggers?

I think your head is up your own ass on this so far that you may never see daylight.

Go re-read the thread in question and pay closer attention to how and when Glaichman brings his family into the discussion.

He accused everyone who disagreed with him of wanting his son to die or be tortured horribly because we all hate military and/or were looking for an excuse to vilify him.

My dad was in the Air Force, my cousin served two tours in Afghanistan, my brother was in the Army. I have great respect for everyone who serves.

His _completely out of left field_ slam related to the Armed Services was fucking offensive.

So when he tarred everyone with a broad brush, we immediately went to the attack and... oh wait, no, we lauded his son and mostly brushed it off.

Quote from: jeff37923;773935Triggers?

I think your head is up your own ass on this so far that you may never see daylight.

Go re-read the thread in question and pay closer attention to how and when Glaichman brings his family into the discussion.

I re-read enough when it was going on.

And "head up your ass"?
You try to prove me wrong, by proving me right.
You obviously want a reaction from me, that you can keep perpetrating.
This reply is my response.

Quote from: The Ent;773924I Get what you're saying.
(The saying I was quoting isn't just about Games mind, "if you want to join the game you got to stand the pain", sure, literally, but you know. That covers lots of stuff. Like internet brawls.)

He was attacked sure but. He has history here. Jeff, Rince and others - well I can't speak for them, but as far as I can see they've had enough interactions with him that they're not giving him the benefit of the doubt any more. I Don't feel that they can be fairly Criticized for that really. I've seen enough of the posts of all these three posters that I have to agree with Rince & Jeff - sure they can be harsh bastards, but Gleichmann frequently comes across pretty trollish.

Other posters with no such history re: Gleichmann have no excuse to go dogpile him though. As I said, I find dogpiling to be distasteful.

Once again, I have to return to my saying.

If Gleichmann can't handle a beating, then he shouldn't go about starting fights.

It's really that simple.

He's a grown man, with grown children even.

If he wants an emotionally safe place to rant, there's TBP.

And, secluded? He has a Family, apparently.

Even people that is emotionally secluded can still manage to get families, but perhaps secluded was the wrong words:
"Caught up in his own ways of thinking" may be more proper.

As for Jeff ... I guess he's ok as long as he only talks about games.
In other cases, he clearly has a history too.

Quote from: Catelf;773958Even people that is emotionally secluded can still manage to get families, but perhaps secluded was the wrong words:
"Caught up in his own ways of thinking" may be more proper.

As for Jeff ... I guess he's ok as long as he only talks about games.
In other cases, he clearly has a history too.

I absolutely see your POV.

Quote from: estar;773933The other thing I got was trying to argue with the guy without his rules in front of me is not going to work. So I ordered them from lulu.

Which I guess must of have pissed him off because he tore down his lulu store.

And god help me as I actually got the point of a post of his this time.

Anyway that my opinion on the matter.

Did he tear it down before or after he announced that he ragequit?
If after, it is possible that he just connected your ordering it with the whole thread that he at the time just wanted to get away from.

Quote from: Will;773948He accused everyone who disagreed with him of wanting his son to die or be tortured horribly because we all hate military and/or were looking for an excuse to vilify him.

My dad was in the Air Force, my cousin served two tours in Afghanistan, my brother was in the Army. I have great respect for everyone who serves.

His _completely out of left field_ slam related to the Armed Services was fucking offensive.

So when he tarred everyone with a broad brush, we immediately went to the attack and... oh wait, no, we lauded his son and mostly brushed it off.

This was his exact words at first:

QuoteTwo, twin boys.

Both went on to military service with one currently deployed in the Persian Gulf. I now await the wishes that he's killed while in harm's way, for that's just about how you bastards think.

I agree that it was a bit too much, but too many chose to escalate it ...

(WTH am I doing this for, the reasonable will thankfully keep being reasonable, but those that thinks they have far more points than they do will keep holing on to their points and think all of them were right because they did have some points that were right...)

Do you mean escalate it to that point, or after?

Because unless I missed it, nobody said anything bad about his son serving after that post.

Quote from: Catelf;773950I re-read enough when it was going on.

And "head up your ass"?
You try to prove me wrong, by proving me right.
You obviously want a reaction from me, that you can keep perpetrating.
This reply is my response.

So, your conclusions come without looking at what actually happened. Just wanted to confirm that. Yes, your head is up your ass.

Quote from: Catelf;773958Even people that is emotionally secluded can still manage to get families, but perhaps secluded was the wrong words:
"Caught up in his own ways of thinking" may be more proper.

As for Jeff ... I guess he's ok as long as he only talks about games.
In other cases, he clearly has a history too.

Yup, I'm clearly emotionally damaged.

Quote from: Will;773976Do you mean escalate it to that point, or after?

Because unless I missed it, nobody said anything bad about his son serving after that post.

I have reread it now.
It is obviously "escalate to that point", so I was technically wrong there.
After that it seems to only have been Novastar that went on and pointed out how G's comment looked like .... again, and G took it the worst way possible.
Essentially, I may have drawn some incorrect conclusions and assumptions, and I have to face it.

However, I am not alone in having drawn incorrect conclusions, and because of that thread being a mess in general, I prefer to not detail the rights and wrongs this time.
I only wonder if the other ones that made mistakes also will face those, or if they will not.
(Those I define "reasonable ones" already have, or wasn't even wrong to begin with. There is a risk someone or a very few will claim they weren't wrong at all, despite them actually being wrong, but those ought to be obvious by now.)

Quote from: Catelf;773971Did he tear it down before or after he announced that he ragequit?
If after, it is possible that he just connected your ordering it with the whole thread that he at the time just wanted to get away from.

It was a couple of days afterwards. Curious I checked it, I guess 4 days or so afterwards  and now it not there.

I told him I ordered it before the stuff with his son went down. I think he did this before prior to 2010 when he had his rules in a doc file for people to download.

It would not be the first time Gleichman cut and run from an argument, or ignored data that contradicts his narrative.

Are there some hurt feelings in this thread?

Shut the fuck up and roll the dice! The game must go on.

So those interested my copy of Gliechman rules just shipped. Should have them by next week.

Quote from: The Ent;773924If Gleichmann can't handle a beating, then he shouldn't go about starting fights.

It's really that simple.

There are many who need to learn that lesson.

Quote from: estar;773933The other thing I got was trying to argue with the guy without his rules in front of me is not going to work. So I ordered them from lulu.

Which I guess must of have pissed him off because he tore down his lulu store.

:rotfl:

Quote from: Novastar;773707Would that Gleichman take your advice, this whole debacle would have been avoided.

He's not the only one that could have used some lube.

QuoteHe has stated (repeatedly) that anyone who plays a certain way, is lacking in intelligence and a lesser human being. I merely pointed out that the brush he was painting with, hits a lot of people, including his own son apparently.

Can you not see how telling someone they are a terrible parent and hate their kids might draw a bit of a negative reaction? How it might not help your argument at all? How about the only thing it will do is inflame things?

QuoteCause apparently Gleichman can call me and other posters cumstains, but God forbid I point out his statements could be offensive to his own children, as well.

If he calls you a cumstain, call him one back. Don't bring family into it.

Quote from: Nexus;773750Did anyone actually say anything about his family aside from gliechman himself?

Implying you are a terrible parent is saying something about your family.

Look - ah, fuck it. One last time, this time with overkill. The numbers are post numbers, I've left the names off since I can't multiquote a closed thread and it was too much work. I've also left most of Gleichman's responses out. Yes, they had snark and PAs aplenty. I'm bolding what I think are the over the line attacks using family. I think the unbolded ones were probably okay in isolation, but in volume like here they are a problem as well.

Gleichman posts, there's discussion, things are going okay,

Then comes the "talking behind his back in a thread he can see". If you really want to belittle someone, take to PMs where they can't see them and it's actually behind their back. Doing it in public like this is like insulting someone sitting at your junior high lunch table while pretending they don't exist.

I also decided to underline all these Gleichman insulting asides between posters that weren't written to Gleichman once I saw how many of them there are.

QuotePost 22: Chuckle Out Loud at Gleichman still existing and people still talking to him.

Aaaaand of course it had to be Zak. After all the crap from the last few weeks, I am so disappoint. What's the point of posting this in the first place? Total thread crap, and the thread is sure to go pear shaped now.

Quote23: At least no one is quoting him so at least I never knew until his name was mentioned.
25: My thoughts exactly. (+1 for p22)
30: It seems that the 4e burning was a sacrifice necessary to bring back gleichmann. Welcome to your first rodeo (response to p29.
31: Thanks.  I guess? :) So what's a gleichmann?
32: You are better off not knowing. He takes all the fun out of gaming kind of like the Grinch and Christmas.

34 and 35, Gleichman responds to the topic, 36 he responds to 32.  38 he responds to 29. Both 36 and 38 are PA-ish, but in context they come after the above snark. 40, GA on gamers who like things to go their own way.

Quote41: That is a highly twisted and blinkered way of considering the issue.  You are taking every approach that isn't yours and ascribing it to scurrilous motives. This makes you look foolish.

The thread has now become heated, and personal. Gleichman responds in kind to many of the following posts.

Quote45: Ah, I begin to see from whence your reputation comes.

49: No no, the system didn't fail the players, the players FAILED THE SYSTEM.

51: A gentlemen that still hasn't internalized, "Different strokes, for different folks".

54: I have very little patience for the juvenile bullshit of 'badwrongfun.' The world is full of intolerant small-minded crap, and while I know it's a pipe dream, it'd be fucking fantastic not encountering it in something as unimportant and meant for fun as RPGs.

58: Now, I think your point of view on this paints you as someone whose ass is so tight you couldn't pull a needle out of it with a 2-ton tractor,

This is actually the first "you're a bad parent" post.

Quote63: You really posted a thread on an RPG site to call out your son for not following the rules you wrote to the letter. I just want to make sure I understand this correctly.

Gleichman responded with this:

Quote65: No.I posted a really good example of actual play when a Ruling not Rules harmed a game. Who was involved was unimportant.

Safe for the moment, the thread doesn't blow up.

Quote66: I see you are unable to actually provide any support for your point of view and instead you resort to unfounded name calling. We are all most impressed. That's sarcasm. In case you are having trouble following along.

67: Know what? We're talking about a goddamned game here, not making the trains run unerringly on time. You're right -- if folks are having fun, they don't care what you think. Nor should they. This clinical and rather myopic view of how to play really is just an excuse to be critical of other styles. You're also right in that no one's ever been convinced by an online discussion. This is another example.

68: Some people are tempermentally unsuited to be a GM. Anyone who thinks a GM could or should be replaced by a computer (which of course will always follow the RAW) is unsuited to the role of a GM. From your comments you appear to be one of those people.

71: It's interesting. A few pages ago I debated pointing out that G's views of gaming smacked a lot of real world conservative douchebaggery. But I figured it would be a bit silly to draw large inferences out of how people like their gaming. Looks like my instincts were right, though. What an officious jackass.

75: Regression towards the mean in action (implication that the son who made the initial ruling is not a terrible human being like his father).

79: What are you like 10 years old emotionally?

82: Oh no worries, I perfectly think your way is shit, nothing "postmodern" about it.

83: Man, I was so much happier when nobody quoted Gleichman.

112: Aren't you just the most precious little boy. Why, look, I have a .sig just for you! But leaving that aside ... damn, you're just so amusing it's tough not to collect your quips.

149: So, you're basically just a pretentious douchebag. I figured this was the case due to all the posts in this thread, but right here we see a definitive affirmation of that fact. Sorry if you're unable to enjoy playing games; you have said numerous times that ALL rpg rules are seriously flawed, so...yeah, sucks to be you.

150: You appear to have misspelled the word "better".

Fixed your type is fun to do, but it's still passive-aggro bs.

Quote153: OHT, is the creation of this thread not the definition of trolling?

155: I warned you all upthread. Gleichman is very special.

159: I should have paid more attention to Gleichmann's sig (William F. Buckley quote). Pretty well summed up.

162: Buckley was pretentious, but at least he spoke well, was entertainingly pretentious, and was able to present a logical train of thought. Sadly Gleichmann seems unable to do any of the three. He is like the ranters who come out on many campuses each fall along with the rest of the autumnal nuts.

163: Brian is the mopey middle-schooler who makes lists of 'enemies' consisting of people who don't even know who he is, and believes he's ostracized by others because he's so much better and brighter than everyone else and lacks the self-reflection to realise it's just because he's a fucking shitwit.

I missed it, this is the first Novastar reference to Gleichman being a terrible parent.

Quote173: For the love of God, I hope you did not say this to your son. I don't care if he's 5 or 35, if you said this or something similar, you are a fucking awful person.

Fortunately it was buried in a long post, so everyone else missed it too.

Quote176: Personally I'm amazed anybody takes Gleichman seriously but hey different strokes and all that jazz.

178: First, I had forgotten what G was like on TBP, and was willing to give someone here the benefit of the doubt in a more open environment. Then, when I figured out what a pompous self-loving dilhole he was, I was lured by the freedom to point that out. But at this point we're just streaming into the event horizon of his ego, so I'll try to do the sane thing and stop contributing.

181: Isn't this emotional abuse of a child by gleichman (referring to 173)?

183: What, gleichman bred?[/B]

What, someone's stupid enough to have kids with him?

Gleichman in response to 183:

Quote185: Two, twin boys. Both went on to military service with one currently deployed in the Persian Gulf.

Bear in mind at this point there have been by my count (which likely missed some) 34 posts either directly attacking Gleichman or, more commonly, insulting him while talking past him. Is it really a surprise he might say something like this given all the rest of the PAs directed at him?

QuoteI now await the wishes that he's killed while in harm's way, for that's just about how you bastards think.

Fuse lit...

Quote186: Gleichman: You are a small-minded twat.

Followed by thanking his son for his service. Interesting juxtaposition, that.

Quote187: "Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in."
 ― Isaac Asimov

 "The measure of intelligence is the ability to change."
 ― Albert Einstein

 "Despite my firm convictions, I have been always a man who tries to face facts, and to accept the reality of life as new experience and new knowledge unfolds it. I have always kept an open mind, which is necessary to the flexibility that must go hand in hand with every form of intelligent search for truth."
 ― Malcolm X

Good quotes and all, but the implication that the poster thinks Gleichman is an idiot comes through.

Quote188: God no (in reference to "wishes he's killed"). Congratulations on the family. (Then this). And apparently at least one's not as crazy as you so there's hope.

Since we missed it the first time, Novastar decides to double down and say it again. Thanks Novastar.*

Quote189: You just inferred he's stupid and a flawed person, because he made a different call than you in an RPG game.

and BOOM! Gleichman in response to Novastar's post 189. This time he saw the implication that first came in 173:

Quote190: You. FUCK OFF.

 The very idea that one of sons could be killed defending your sorry ass right to defame people online and throw unrelated words into a father's mouth to make an attack that had to be Satan's own creation REPULSES ME. And YOU make me seriously regret supporting them in their decision to undertake that risk.

 But Gratz you fucking idiot, after I don't know how many years a couple of you bastards have finally actually made me angry. You've proven nothing is too far, nothing is off limits. You would have thought I would have known that, but fool am I. I believe there was something worthwhile left in mankind.

 But you and jeff37923 have proved me oh so wrong.

 Gratz again.

 One Horse Town, please ban my account. I wish it as a marker to what just occurred. I will have nothing further to do with a site that accepts this sort of behavior from their posters. There is only so much shit one can wade through, no matter the cause.

Blood is in the water, sharks are starting to frenzy.

Quote191: Poor kid.

192: EDIT: I never said jack about your other son's service, or my own, because they aren't germane to the issue. I was commenting on your questionable behavior to the other one. And they are YOUR words. Maybe, just maybe, if you are shown that the open disdain that you treat a great deal of other people, is equally applicable to your own boys, you might take and show some restraint and courtesy in the future.

 Note: "I" have never said your children are stupid or lesser people. You did. Or more accurately, you stated that people that engage in the same activities as them, are. I merely pointed out you are painting with an over-large brush, one that also includes your children. Maybe you should give some thoughts on your comments, rather than your anger with me.

Here's a fun idea; why don't you go out to a mall, and walk up to everyone you see who you think might be a bad parent, and then very reasonably show them why logically they are bad parents. See how it goes. Or in not so snarky words, you might think you're being reasonable here, but people aren't reasonable where their kids and their relationships with their kids are concerned. Appealing to reason is futile. If you do it anyway you're being an idiot. I presume you aren't an idiot, so learn this lesson.

Quote193: Hey, Gleichman, if you don't want to imply that you think your son is an idiot, maybe you shouldn't imply that you think your son is an idiot. And fuck you for having the stones to try hiding behind the flag when you're called out on your bullshit.

Uncritically accepting Novastar's spin.

Quote194: This might get entertaining finally. Don't dissapoint the people that don't have you on ignore already, try hard ok? Just for me.

The audience egging the sharks on.

Quote197: Because really, fuck you gleichman for being such a pseudointellectual pussy that you have to use your own son's honorable military service as a shield to protect your hurt feelings over a gaming discussion.

Regarding  "hiding behind the flag". Gleichman loses it over this: "You just inferred he's stupid and a flawed person, because he made a different call than you in an RPG game." This: "The very idea that one of sons could be killed defending your sorry ass right to defame people online and throw unrelated words into a father's mouth to make an attack that had to be Satan's own creation REPULSES ME." is directed squarely at the implication that he is calling his own son's stupid. It doesn't have anything to do with hurt feelings over a gaming discussion, it has to do with an attack on his relationship with his sons. And it isn't hiding behind the flag, it's saying that Novastar is so repulsive they don't deserve constitutional protections. It's a PA, not hiding. Hiding behind the flag would be claiming that an attack on him is unfair because he is a veteran, or because his sons are. That doesn't happen here. Saying "you don't deserve the privilege of being defended by my son" isn't the same as claiming a privilege because his son is a vet. The reason I've bolded these is because they again play into the family dynamic.

Quote198 (Me): Sorry, by this: It's care that you have no concept why you're failure to care matters, did you mean this: It's cLEare that you have no concept why you're YOUR failure to care matters? (Because pointing out spelling/auto-correct errors is a way to imply people are stupid.)

Apparently I did (as is this).

If I'd been paying more attention to how much shit he had been dealing with, I wouldn't have posted this. In isolation it's pretty aggressive give and take, in the context of the thread it's piling on.

Quote200: That was, indeed, seriously disgusting (+1 for 193 re. hiding behind the flag).

201: I agree.

One Horse Town expresses disappointment at the thread.

Quote205: Wait, how the fuck is making fun of someone marching out their son's military service to protect them from someone disagreeing with them about elf-games hitting above their weight. Gleichman acts like a child. Has acted like a child every single time I've seen him. Consistently insults anyone who doesn't match his playstyle (and his playstyle is so hilariously extreme that that is pretty much everyone), and acts like he's persecuted and surrounded by idiots when no one agrees with him. (Are you beginning to see why he might feel persecuted?)

207: Oh, come on, dude quoted back exactly what Gliechman said.

 How about the part where Gliechman claimed that the posters would wish his son dead now that they found out he was in the military. Was that part out of line?

No, no, only the part where someone pointed out the exact thing that Gliechman said. That is totally off base, yep.[/U]

One Horse Town closes the thread.

*********

That took a while.

Final analysis:

1. Attacking people based on their family relationships, including implying or saying they are bad parents, will get your ass kicked in public. It's OTT, it's stupid, it makes you look like a bully, and it nukes threads. Don't do it.

2. I knew there were a lot of PAs in the thread, I didn't realize how many of them involved posters discussing what an awful person Gleichman was amongst themselves. If you're going to be an asshole and insult someone don't be a chickenshit, insult them directly; address it to them. If you want to talk behind their back, take it to PM so you can actually talk behind their back.

I really want to emphasize this point. Until I pulled all these quotes, I didn't know how much this was happening. Keep an eye out. I think these kinds of posts have a pretty corrosive effect on the site.

3. If someone annoys you that much, IL them, and stay out of their threads, even if the threads look interesting. And if you should wander into their range, don't engage, and don't talk about them out in the open.

4. No-one can admit to being in the wrong, since they think it means they are an intrinsically horrible person rather than someone who made a mistake or got carried away. Ironically Gleichman got this right; he thought his son made a GMing mistake, but didn't think that meant he was a horrible person.

5. Try and be aware of what is happening in the thread beyond just your participation. This was where my mistake lay, I had tunnel vision focused on my exchange with Brian and missed how many posts there were that were PAs. Someone may be acting dickish in part because they are getting it from all sides. Don't pile on when you see that.

6. Hopefully some of the neutrals took something useful away from this.

7. Slather that lube over your posts and maybe the site will have less friction.

 
*Yes, this is a PA.

I can admit to being wrong.

I should have left the thread earlier when it was clear what Gleichman was about. As I said in the thread, I was seduced by being in an environment that was less jackbooted than previous forums I've been on.

I agree that most of the 20s posts were unwarranted sniping. If you don't ever listen to Gliechman... don't post in a thread he started?

As for my quotes, did you notice Gleichman's sig?

Quote"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you've simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

That's horrific. And it's also very appropriate to the tone and style of Gleichman's arguments, which is what my shift in posting in the thread was about -- realizing that he's not actually interested in a discussion, that he is absolutely intolerant of contrasting views, however he might pay lip service to story games.

My quotes were a response to that, on the subject of being open-minded, and a sharp, _intellectual_, reply to the tone and nature of his arguments.

I don't think it's in the same sphere as 'har har you suck.'

Excuse me that he ruined his own thread as usual. I figured if he insisted then at least be entertaining, not be a big dick about it. As I said I WAS having a productive conservation in that thread that may have been some help to Gleichman over the actual reason for the thread.

Basically I was warning people about him and how that thread would end so get off your high horse before you get bucked off.

Marleycat, your entire involvement in that thread was to take potshots at Gleichman and throw feces at him constantly.

You had absolutely nothing productive to say in the thread.

Neither did Zak.

Gleichman took the entire can of gasoline and upended it on his head, but let's be honest, there were plenty of people eagerly tossing matches at him.

Apparition13, please feel free to add me to your Ignore List.

Considering the only two posters I've ever had a serious problem with on RPGSite, were the poster who constantly talked about his love for little boys (forgot what his name was), and Gleichman, I feel pretty comfortable that I'm not the unreasonable one.

Everyone else I feel I have argued in good faith with, and feel that they have in turn responded in kind. I began that same way with both of those two gentlemen, but they have worn away the benefit of the doubt. This was not accomplished in a single post (hell, anyone can have a bad day), but a history of their posts.

And even amongst that, I did ask questions, snarky questions to be sure, since I find the claim about "Highly detailed and exacting positioning" counterintuitive to his 'Heisenberg Principle of Position". His entire premise is flawed, which I had the cardinal sin of pointing out years ago to him as well, when he was berating all of us as plebs, who enjoyed "Theatre of the Mind" to using a battlemap.

Quote from: Will;774872Marleycat, your entire involvement in that thread was to take potshots at Gleichman and throw feces at him constantly.

You had absolutely nothing productive to say in the thread.

Neither did Zak.

Gleichman took the entire can of gasoline and upended it on his head, but let's be honest, there were plenty of people eagerly tossing matches at him.

Oh yes I did. Just because you didn't listen don't come painting me out as some villian. What he did is exactly what he does everytime he decides to show up every 6 months or so. And it ends the exact same way everytime without fail. Gleichman is the ONLY person I have on IL here and that took some serious doing on his part.

Quote from: apparition13;774699He's not the only one that could have used some lube.

Can you not see how telling someone they are a terrible parent and hate their kids might draw a bit of a negative reaction? How it might not help your argument at all? How about the only thing it will do is inflame things?

If he calls you a cumstain, call him one back. Don't bring family into it.

Implying you are a terrible parent is saying something about your family.

Look - ah, fuck it. One last time, this time with overkill. The numbers are post numbers, I've left the names off since I can't multiquote a closed thread and it was too much work. I've also left most of Gleichman's responses out. Yes, they had snark and PAs aplenty. I'm bolding what I think are the over the line attacks using family. I think the unbolded ones were probably okay in isolation, but in volume like here they are a problem as well.

Gleichman posts, there's discussion, things are going okay,

Then comes the "talking behind his back in a thread he can see". If you really want to belittle someone, take to PMs where they can't see them and it's actually behind their back. Doing it in public like this is like insulting someone sitting at your junior high lunch table while pretending they don't exist.

I also decided to underline all these Gleichman insulting asides between posters that weren't written to Gleichman once I saw how many of them there are.
Aaaaand of course it had to be Zak. After all the crap from the last few weeks, I am so disappoint. What's the point of posting this in the first place? Total thread crap, and the thread is sure to go pear shaped now.


34 and 35, Gleichman responds to the topic, 36 he responds to 32.  38 he responds to 29. Both 36 and 38 are PA-ish, but in context they come after the above snark. 40, GA on gamers who like things to go their own way.



The thread has now become heated, and personal. Gleichman responds in kind to many of the following posts.



This is actually the first "you're a bad parent" post.Gleichman responded with this:


Safe for the moment, the thread doesn't blow up.



Fixed your type is fun to do, but it's still passive-aggro bs.



I missed it, this is the first Novastar reference to Gleichman being a terrible parent.



Fortunately it was buried in a long post, so everyone else missed it too.

What, someone's stupid enough to have kids with him?

Gleichman in response to 183:



Bear in mind at this point there have been by my count (which likely missed some) 34 posts either directly attacking Gleichman or, more commonly, insulting him while talking past him. Is it really a surprise he might say something like this given all the rest of the PAs directed at him?


Fuse lit...
Followed by thanking his son for his service. Interesting juxtaposition, that.



Good quotes and all, but the implication that the poster thinks Gleichman is an idiot comes through.



Since we missed it the first time, Novastar decides to double down and say it again. Thanks Novastar.*



and BOOM! Gleichman in response to Novastar's post 189. This time he saw the implication that first came in 173:



Blood is in the water, sharks are starting to frenzy.

Here's a fun idea; why don't you go out to a mall, and walk up to everyone you see who you think might be a bad parent, and then very reasonably show them why logically they are bad parents. See how it goes. Or in not so snarky words, you might think you're being reasonable here, but people aren't reasonable where their kids and their relationships with their kids are concerned. Appealing to reason is futile. If you do it anyway you're being an idiot. I presume you aren't an idiot, so learn this lesson.

Uncritically accepting Novastar's spin.


The audience egging the sharks on.



Regarding  "hiding behind the flag". Gleichman loses it over this: "You just inferred he's stupid and a flawed person, because he made a different call than you in an RPG game." This: "The very idea that one of sons could be killed defending your sorry ass right to defame people online and throw unrelated words into a father's mouth to make an attack that had to be Satan's own creation REPULSES ME." is directed squarely at the implication that he is calling his own son's stupid. It doesn't have anything to do with hurt feelings over a gaming discussion, it has to do with an attack on his relationship with his sons. And it isn't hiding behind the flag, it's saying that Novastar is so repulsive they don't deserve constitutional protections. It's a PA, not hiding. Hiding behind the flag would be claiming that an attack on him is unfair because he is a veteran, or because his sons are. That doesn't happen here. Saying "you don't deserve the privilege of being defended by my son" isn't the same as claiming a privilege because his son is a vet. The reason I've bolded these is because they again play into the family dynamic.


If I'd been paying more attention to how much shit he had been dealing with, I wouldn't have posted this. In isolation it's pretty aggressive give and take, in the context of the thread it's piling on.



One Horse Town expresses disappointment at the thread.



One Horse Town closes the thread.

*********

That took a while.

Final analysis:

1. Attacking people based on their family relationships, including implying or saying they are bad parents, will get your ass kicked in public. It's OTT, it's stupid, it makes you look like a bully, and it nukes threads. Don't do it.

2. I knew there were a lot of PAs in the thread, I didn't realize how many of them involved posters discussing what an awful person Gleichman was amongst themselves. If you're going to be an asshole and insult someone don't be a chickenshit, insult them directly; address it to them. If you want to talk behind their back, take it to PM so you can actually talk behind their back.

I really want to emphasize this point. Until I pulled all these quotes, I didn't know how much this was happening. Keep an eye out. I think these kinds of posts have a pretty corrosive effect on the site.

3. If someone annoys you that much, IL them, and stay out of their threads, even if the threads look interesting. And if you should wander into their range, don't engage, and don't talk about them out in the open.

4. No-one can admit to being in the wrong, since they think it means they are an intrinsically horrible person rather than someone who made a mistake or got carried away. Ironically Gleichman got this right; he thought his son made a GMing mistake, but didn't think that meant he was a horrible person.

5. Try and be aware of what is happening in the thread beyond just your participation. This was where my mistake lay, I had tunnel vision focused on my exchange with Brian and missed how many posts there were that were PAs. Someone may be acting dickish in part because they are getting it from all sides. Don't pile on when you see that.

6. Hopefully some of the neutrals took something useful away from this.

7. Slather that lube over your posts and maybe the site will have less friction.

 
*Yes, this is a PA.

You need to either get a life or go find an emotionally safe zone to post at.

Quote from: Novastar;774910Apparition13, please feel free to add me to your Ignore List.

Considering the only two posters I've ever had a serious problem with on RPGSite, were the poster who constantly talked about his love for little boys (forgot what his name was), and Gleichman, I feel pretty comfortable that I'm not the unreasonable one.

Everyone else I feel I have argued in good faith with, and feel that they have in turn responded in kind. I began that same way with both of those two gentlemen, but they have worn away the benefit of the doubt. This was not accomplished in a single post (hell, anyone can have a bad day), but a history of their posts.

And even amongst that, I did ask questions, snarky questions to be sure, since I find the claim about "Highly detailed and exacting positioning" counterintuitive to his 'Heisenberg Principle of Position". His entire premise is flawed, which I had the cardinal sin of pointing out years ago to him as well, when he was berating all of us as plebs, who enjoyed "Theatre of the Mind" to using a battlemap.

Please, add me to your Ignore List as well Apparition 13.

I request the same Apparition 13 .  *Curtsies*

Quote from: Novastar;774910Apparition13, please feel free to add me to your Ignore List.

Considering the only two posters I've ever had a serious problem with on RPGSite, were the poster who constantly talked about his love for little boys (forgot what his name was), and Gleichman, I feel pretty comfortable that I'm not the unreasonable one..

mythusmage or something like that?  I feel left out that you haven't had a serious problem with me.  Everyone hates me ;)

Quote from: Sacrosanct;775013mythusmage or something like that?  I feel left out that you haven't had a serious problem with me.  Everyone hates me ;)

I'll try harder in the future to be an argumentive prig. :p

Quote from: Sacrosanct;775013mythusmage or something like that?  I feel left out that you haven't had a serious problem with me.  Everyone hates me ;)

Well really? I could go Sybil if it entertains me. You do know that Mythnage or whatever is a SA goon? It's saddens me that you guys think I am so stupid. And yes Sacrosanct you suck.:)

Quote from: Will;774774I can admit to being wrong.

I should have left the thread earlier when it was clear what Gleichman was about. As I said in the thread, I was seduced by being in an environment that was less jackbooted than previous forums I've been on.

I agree that most of the 20s posts were unwarranted sniping. If you don't ever listen to Gliechman... don't post in a thread he started?

Thank you, I appreciate the open mind. :)

QuoteAs for my quotes, did you notice Gleichman's sig?

That's horrific. And it's also very appropriate to the tone and style of Gleichman's arguments, which is what my shift in posting in the thread was about -- realizing that he's not actually interested in a discussion, that he is absolutely intolerant of contrasting views, however he might pay lip service to story games.

The point of the quote is that sooner or later you have to quit waffling and take a position. Is climate change real? Should abortion be legal? What kind of grand strategy should the U.S. take with respect to a rising China now, and a rising India a generation or two later? Should we build an interstate bypass? What do you want for dinner?

Now if it also means you must then hold this position regardless of future information, then yes, it's pretty stupid, but I don't think that's what Buckley meant. Personally I think it was an "aren't I clever" response to what he saw as a "yeah man, just keep your mind open" mentality that seemed to disregard evidence in favor of treating all sides as equivalent. Which we can see in the media, when being open minded seems to mean having one climate denialist on with one climate scientist when debating global warming rather than doing it in an auditorium with one climate denialist and 99 climate scientists.

I'm open to the idea that I may be reading Buckley too generously.

Quote from: jeff37923;774973You need to either get a life or go find an emotionally safe zone to post at.

This is a safe zone; no second guessing whether what you want to post will get you banned.

Quote from: Novastar;774910Apparition13, please feel free to add me to your Ignore List.

Quote from: jeff37923;774974Please, add me to your Ignore List as well Apparition 13.

Quote from: Marleycat;774997I request the same Apparition 13 .  *Curtsies*

Nah, y'all are being silly. I generally just read the posts and don't even notice who is writing them. Besides, the only three people I've ever IL'd are people whose posting style, rather than content, irritated me. I haven't really noticed anything objectionable about any of you and your posting outside of that thread, but then again I haven't subjected many threads to this kind of analysis. Seriously, I have nothing personal against any of you (and Novastar, I apologize for the aggro directed at you in the "overkill" post).



Just a final request here, try an experiment in empathy. Look at my post 87, and replace Gleichman with yourself. Would you feel a little persecuted if you were being talked to, and about, like that? I'm not talking so much about the specifics, although those are relevant, as the quantity. How do you think you would respond to that volume of personal animosity? Like he did, or differently? How did you respond to Gleichman when he retaliated, and what might that say about how you might respond if you were the 'one' against the 'many'?

Like I said a couple of times, I don't think my responses to him were over the top in isolation, but in the context (rulings, not rules :)) of the thread they were piling on, and therefore wrong, which is why I apologized. I was focused on my response, on myself, when I posted; when I then exercised some empathy and looked at it from his viewpoint I realized I had gone too far.

That's all I'm saying really, flip your perspective back and forth, look at your posts and others from different viewpoints, then decide what to do.

If Buckley was twittering, I'd be more generous.

As it is, I hold him to wording.

Saying the -purpose- of an open mind is to shut it, that strikes me as abhorrent.

He could have used the word obligation, or responsibility, or 'a properly functioning open mind must also...'

But he essentially tilted it toward a fundamental distrust and misunderstanding of what an open mind means.

So, I posted my counter quotes from hippies like Einstein.

@Apparition 13, fair enough sir but understand he's still on my IL regardless.

The book arrived today. Will dig into and post a review. Initial impression that it looks solid. Has a lot of detail but looks straightforward enough. If you like GURPS, Hero, Rolemaster, Harnmaster, Runequest, etc. You will likely like this set of rules. It is formatted similar to SPI's Dragonquest and Universe with wargame style numbering of topics. Makes it easy to look up references.

Yes it has Giants on page 211, but it is recommend as an option. Anyway Brian makes it clear that a referee needs to have a writeup summarizing what option are in use. His personal campaign likely doesn't have giants.

Sorry couldn't resist.

Quote from: estar;775829The book arrived today. Will dig into and post a review. Initial impression that it looks solid. Has a lot of detail but looks straightforward enough. If you like GURPS, Hero, Rolemaster, Harnmaster, Runequest, etc. You will likely like this set of rules. It is formatted similar to SPI's Dragonquest and Universe with wargame style numbering of topics. Makes it easy to look up references.

I got a copy as well. I agree it looks solid. Will probably do a review in the next couple of weeks.

Will your reviews save his precious children's lives???

You better think of the children when you monsters review his masterwork!

This was his second RPG, right? After his success with FATAL? No seriously, I always wondered if Gleichman was the author. He seems like THAT dude.

But hey, if his game has cool bits, that's great news. I've always said that I am happy to separate the Creator from the Creation.

Actually, I believe "Age of Heroes" is his only work, and it's currently at revision 5, according to his website.

Quote from: Spinachcat;779098Will your reviews save his precious children's lives???

You better think of the children when you monsters review his masterwork!

This was his second RPG, right? After his success with FATAL? No seriously, I always wondered if Gleichman was the author. He seems like THAT dude.

Drive by sniping, weeks after the fact, in a thread about not doing that. Is there a point to this assholery, or are you just so petty you had to get stuck in because you missed out on the other thread?

QuoteBut hey, if his game has cool bits, that's great news. I've always said that I am happy to separate the Creator from the Creation.

Well at least you've got that going for you. Which is nice, I suppose.

Quote from: Spinachcat;779098Will your reviews save his precious children's lives???

You better think of the children when you monsters review his masterwork!

This was his second RPG, right? After his success with FATAL? No seriously, I always wondered if Gleichman was the author. He seems like THAT dude.

But hey, if his game has cool bits, that's great news. I've always said that I am happy to separate the Creator from the Creation.

Well, anyone who takes the time and effort to design a game, write the rulebook and put it up for sale, gets props from me. I know what kind of work that entails.

I told him I wanted to look at his game because when I have discussed mechanics with Gleichman in the past I liked a lot of his ideas, even if we disagreed strongly about a few key points. I've only had a chance to skim the rules now and plan to read them tonight or tomorrow (after I do my next movie review), then run them as a one-shot or two-shot once I muster the troops. So far I like a lot of what I see. The review isn't going to be about any of the forum drama or about holding Gleichman to things he has said in the heat of an internet debate. It will just be about the game.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;779161Well, anyone who takes the time and effort to design a game, write the rulebook and put it up for sale, gets props from me.

I fully agree and I have agreed on that point before on various forums because I believe that criticism and praise Creation must be separated from the actions and personality of the Creator.

I even debate whether boycotting an odious Creator is the right action if it deprives you of entertainment you would enjoy. It's a point I consider heftily as to the pros/cons of boycotts.

My hope is Age of Heroes has LOTS of good stuff to steal.

Quote from: apparition13;779129Drive by sniping, weeks after the fact, in a thread about not doing that.

I'm so sorry Thread Mommy!!

I've be bad so its time to spank me Apparition 13. Spank me hard.

Quote from: Spinachcat;779326My hope is Age of Heroes has LOTS of good stuff to steal.

I still working through it but it there are appears to be subsystems that can be reused for example herbalism.

Honestly I am little astonished at Age of Heroes. The game itself is solid but has detailed mechanics so it won't to be everybody taste. My astonishment is at how well-written it is compared to Gleichman's rhetoric. By well-written I mean it doesn't talk down to you. It does takes a definite stance on what the game is or isn't but also gives a fair amount of options to tweak it to one's style.

He would not have half the problems he does on the forums if he wrote posts like he wrote Age of Heroes.