TheRPGSite

For the last three days I've taken nothing but insult and abuse from the people who's main purpose for being here is to insult and abuse me, and yet people seem to be nodding their heads in apathy when these people make attacks that hit to the core of what this site is about.

I mean, what's the point really? Does anyone even care about free speech on this forum? Do they really want to preserve it? Because every time someone tells me "you're just like the RPG.net mods", or "you're just like Ron Edwards", and fucking NO ONE jumps in and says "no, in fact he isn't", its like they're telling me "I can't tell the difference between what you've accomplished here and what things are like over there".  So then really, why am I even bothering?

If no one really wants to defend the way things are run here, maybe I should start running them the way the rpg.net mods or Ron Edwards really do things?

RPGPundit

It's free speech that allows people to say that stuff. It's a cheap shot that is readily available because of free speech. It's a fact of the internet that if you stick your head above the parapet, folk are going to take pot-shots.

No, you're not like an RPGnet mod. The ability to say those things to you (as long as it doesn't disrupt the running of the board) proves that.

The Ron Edwards jibe is a long-running one and again something that was bound to come up. It is again wrong as long as discussion of anything RPG related is allowed somewhere on the site. If you outlawed talk of forge or storygames, even in off-topic, then you'd pretty much be mirror-Ron.

I disagreed with your decision to move the Forgie Mechanics thread to off-topic. But since some links have started appearing in it, maybe it was for the best, given past events.

Quote from: One Horse Town;289190I disagreed with your decision to move the Forgie Mechanics thread to off-topic. But since some links have started appearing in it, maybe it was for the best, given past events.

Well I linked to John Kim's site because Bill wanted to know about a specific Forge...well ok a RE (Sorceror) game mechanic. Honestly, it was not meant to be disruptive to this site and I thought it perfectly acceptable since we were discussing Frogey games. (Why does this feel like a tribunal ?)

Regards,
David R

I am constantly inundated with so much free speech that I tend to ignore it.

Quote from: David R;289201Well I linked to John Kim's site because Bill wanted to know about a specific Forge...well ok a RE (Sorceror) game mechanic. Honestly, it was not meant to be disruptive to this site and I thought it perfectly acceptable since we were discussing Frogey games. (Why does this feel like a tribunal ?)

Regards,
David R

It is acceptable to post links, now, on that thread now that it's in the Off Topic section.  it just proves though that allowing Forgespeak in the main forum would lead to the shills like Kubasik showing up and people posting links and generally trying to promote a philosophy that is utterly toxic to RPGs.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;289209It is acceptable to post links, now, on that thread now that it's in the Off Topic section.  it just proves though that allowing Forgespeak in the main forum would lead to the shills like Kubasik showing up and people posting links and generally trying to promote a philosophy that is utterly toxic to RPGs.

Kubasik is no shill and some of your philosophies are the ones which are toxic to RPGs.

And would you stop engaging with that troll Cavscout except for threads in this and your forum ?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: brettmb;289206I am constantly inundated with so much free speech that I tend to ignore it.

Unfortunately, I think that's the case with many here. They take it for granted, and they fail to defend it or to stop those that are abusing it or trying to see it taken away. And they have become unappreciative.

So why bother? The only answer is for my own sake. Sadly, however, that means that others are really abrogating all of their sense of responsibility, and it leaves me feeling very much alone in taking a moral stand.

RPGPundit

Quote from: David R;289215And would you stop engaging with that troll Cavscout except for threads in this and your forum ?

Regards,
David R

No. He doesn't get to have the last word.
If people don't like that, and are bothered by the constant conflict, then they should join me in destroying him.

Of course, if I banned him for being the troll everyone knows he is, the Anti-Pundit Squad would come along claiming I don't believe in free speech and that I'm just like the RPG.net mods and Ron Edwards and Hitler and that I eat babies for breakfast, and no one would say a fucking word against them.

RPGPundit

Free speech was not being attacked here. It was you that they were attacking. I think most of us know that you can take care of yourself.

If someone is disrupting the site and free speech is being abused, it's time for a banning. That is how you stop abuse.

No, if they attack me by claiming that I'm not allowing free speech, and that I'm exactly like those other guys, then they're attacking the concept of free speech on this site.

And if people don't stand up and notice that, then they're saying that they really don't notice the difference or don't care about the difference between this place's freedom of speech and other places' repression.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;289217No. He doesn't get to have the last word.
If people don't like that, and are bothered by the constant conflict, then they should join me in destroying him.

Of course, if I banned him for being the troll everyone knows he is, the Anti-Pundit Squad would come along claiming I don't believe in free speech and that I'm just like the RPG.net mods and Ron Edwards and Hitler and that I eat babies for breakfast, and no one would say a fucking word against them.

OHT said this on that other thread

QuoteDo you hear that noise, CavScout? That's the silence of the board. You've even alienated the couple of people who used to give you the benifit of the doubt. You did that because you couldn't help yourself. You have to argue, you have to try to get your gotcha moment. Now you're relegated to having pops at pundit and me, 'cos no one else is interested. That's why i said that Pundit is an excellent shit-magnet. Guys like you always end up battling him at every step, because you've got nothing else left and he offends your alpha male complex.

So, you only have two things left - wave your dong about in a futile manner or actually engage in what the board is for. Trouble is, you're right. If you wanted to do that now, you've burnt so many bridges, folk just wouldn't give a shit.

You're on your own.

[/I]

And I think that's all there is to say. It doesn't really matter if he gets the last word. Most if not everyone here is aware of the fact that he has a hardon for you because you banned him for being a troll on the politics forum.

As for free speech. Free speech here means calling someone a prick and not being banned. That's all. Of course nobody thinks you're some sort of ModThug .(Wait ModThug....this sounds like a cool idea for a retopunk game....nevermind) The only people that implied this so far has been kyle and me. And I did it because I think your policy of banishing Forge games to OT, is fucked up.

So chill the fuck out. Nobody here thinks free speech is threatened. It only ever comes up because of your attitude towards certain games and gamers.

Regards,
David R

Pal, when I have compared you with Ron Edwards it's been about behaviours you denounce on him and you show all the fucking time. It has nothing to do with free speech or modding style. If you don't want to be compared with him, don't do some things like he did. Easy.

And I don't think free speech is a sacred obligation of a privately run website: you're perfectly well within your rights on banning discussion on any game just because this is your website. And it's OK: you're not a fascist for that. In WW boards you don't discuss D&D and no one goes around crying 'fascists!'

Chill out man.

But the point is I haven't. I haven't banned discussion on any game. I've just made the rule that those discussions have to happen on the right places for this forum. And for that, I get accused of being the same as someone who shuts down speech, or those who have banned thousands.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;289246But the point is I haven't. I haven't banned discussion on any game. I've just made the rule that those discussions have to happen on the right places for this forum. And for that, I get accused of being the same as someone who shuts down speech, or those who have banned thousands.

RPGPundit

Yup, you have a point there. I find that measure artificial and unnecessary, but this is YOUR place and I respect that.

My point is, I don't really care if you allow more or less discussion of this or that game around here, or if you decide to move them to this or the other forum. I dispute with you claims that I find false, and when possible, try to bring factual data to the discussion. If tomorrow you decide that Sorcerer is taboo, I will happily comply with it and won't discuss Sorcerer here, because this is your place with your rules.

Hope I made myself clear on that. You're free to keep thinking that I have a personal cause against you, as you wish. But then I would probably never show any agreement with you and, in fact, i agree with you in many things. So, there.

Regarding Cavscout, I feel that trying to beat him in that last word contest diminishes you, but is your choice. You can do better than that, though.

I think you're all taking this much too seriously.

It is an RPG forum, after all.

Quote from: David R;289201Well I linked to John Kim's site because Bill wanted to know about a specific Forge...well ok a RE (Sorceror) game mechanic. Honestly, it was not meant to be disruptive to this site and I thought it perfectly acceptable since we were discussing Frogey games. (Why does this feel like a tribunal ?)

Regards,
David R

For the record, the links in the thread are:
At my request a character sheet for BW by Droog: PDF (http://www.lumpley.com/pdfs/pullouts.pdf)

A completed character for Dindenver's DitV campaign
http://casualgamerscorner.pbwiki.com/NatesChar
AP Reports for said campaign
http://casualgamerscorner.pbwiki.com/Aug14Logs
http://casualgamerscorner.pbwiki.com/Aug28Logs

A link for explanation purposes to a Sorcerer char sheet by ChristopherKubasik
Here's a link (http://www.sorcerer-rpg.com/sorcerer_sheet.pdf)

A definitional reference to JHKim's site by DavidR at my bequest
http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/...betical/B.html

Now, none of these has sale information, links to the stores where you can buy them and for the most part are clear discussions of mechanics or AP of the games in question. No use of GNS terms or theory was discussed. Let's revisit that NO discussion of Theory took place.

I would also note, the only person with sale information in that thread is me (in my sig).

Quote from: RPGPundit;289246I haven't banned discussion on any game. I've just made the rule that those discussions have to happen on the right places for this forum. And for that, I get accused of being the same as someone who shuts down speech, or those who have banned thousands.

Discussing Burning Wheel in the same place we hear about Koltar being kidnapped in a school bus full of nymphos or where a poll is running between MacDonald's and Burger King may sound appropriate for you. It is not to me and most of the people in this community.

This forum is too much about you, what you like, your wars and your attempts to "win". You said recently that it is possible to have culinary ideologies, political ideologies and yes, gaming ideologies. I agree. It's also possible to go over the fucking top about trivial matters such as Veal Tenderloin or Exalted. It's gotten to a point where everything is about you and what you like. And the extreme and futile lines that you draw between different gaming tastes.

When people say you are acting like a RPG.net mod, they mean you are molding this place based on your own biased views, just like they do. There is a difference between having restrictive rules that will lead to suspensions and funnelling discussion to a dumpster but the net effect is the same: it is about administration molding a forum and a community around THEIR beliefs.

The appeal of RPGsite, from my perspective, was that you could talk about all roleplaying game matters and call people on their bullshit. There were no untouchable darling games here, no group-think and cliques. No need to resort to long bouts of subtle passive-aggressive attacks and hold grudges forever.

I tried to ignore the fact you like to claim the forum success is due to you. I tried to ignore your dedicated forum and your attempts at imposing on us that you are a special citizen. I tried to ignore your thread-crapping. I tried to ignore the very excessive and hateful language you use against certain people and groups. To ignore you fanning the flames of stupid "wars". And most of all, I tried to ignore your awful attitude, lack of objectivity and absolute refusal to ever self-reflect, consider other viewpoints or (horror) consider you might be wrong once in a while.

But this latest stunt of pretending Burning Wheel is not a roleplaying game and dumping it in an off-topic cesspool? I give up.

I'm still gonna stick around to read and maybe help but I can't wait to find another home.

Also, don't worry, I'm not going to pursue you in every thread. This is a one shot. In fact, I'd like to thank you for the insight you provide sometimes, for many of your game ideas, for start many threads inciting roleplaying thoughts and for (initially) moderating such a forum with a relative consistency.

Unfortunately, it has taken a turn I don't like.

Freedom of speech is nice. What about respect? Freedom of ideas? Constructive discussions? Community spirit? Those are things I would like to see promoted more around here. I'm not saying they are non-existent. But other concerns are overshadowing the good stuff.

Quote from: RPGPundit;289246But the point is I haven't. I haven't banned discussion on any game. I've just made the rule that those discussions have to happen on the right places for this forum. And for that, I get accused of being the same as someone who shuts down speech, or those who have banned thousands.
RPGPundit

That is because your detractors know that the comparisons get under your skin and use that against you.

Pundit, you're doing fine, and haven't been a hypocrite in any sense of the word. Though, I would like to point out, from personal experience of running a BBS....
 
RPGsite is about discussing RPGS.  Getting as many people involved in discussion as possible, and attracting new users would be positive points, yes?
 
 Now, the asslickers over at RPGnet look over here, and LAUGH, because they see what a trainwreck this place can be, due to douchenozzles like CavScout.
 
 And I also know from personal experience, that, when kicked off of a board, and when one takes the initiative to create a new, improved board, minus the fascism, one would rather see one's creation become a THREAT, and not a LAUGHINGSTOCK, to the other board.
 
This being said, "freedom of speech" should not pertain to intentional disruption.  The intentional disruption only serves to drive away DECENT users, who are tired of the animosity perpetuated by certain users.
 
 Boot the asshole off, so the rest of us can discuss RPGs in relative peace.

Quote from: RPGPundit;289224No, if they attack me by claiming that I'm not allowing free speech, and that I'm exactly like those other guys, then they're attacking the concept of free speech on this site.

And if people don't stand up and notice that, then they're saying that they really don't notice the difference or don't care about the difference between this place's freedom of speech and other places' repression.

RPGPundit

Pundit, claiming you're not alowing free speech in this forum is like making a case that the Pope's a Muslim.

Wtf?

I mean, whoever made that claim either needs a major reality check or is just spouting nonsense to get under your skin.

The RPGsite is a forum where you say what the damn well you feel like saying, and you don't need to be too nice about it either.

I've been insulted on this site, I've also insulted others in ways that would get me booted from other forums I used to use in the past. Some people are more set intheir ways, others more open-minded. At the end of the day you learn what others think and agree to disagree...with the odd offensve word thrown around.

Like in every community there appear to be some little pet hatreds around, but so what? Game preferences aside, there is no one here I wouldn't welcome at my gaming table. I'm glad I found this place, not only for the gaming talk but for everything else.

So yeah, thanks for keeping theRPGsite the way it is and ignore the ocasional douchebag. As we say in my country "the cries of pigs reach not the heavens."

Pundy, dude, of course that shit bothers the fuck out of me.  It gets fucking irritating, because every fucking thread just gets fucking derailed by the latest batch of little warriors who just have to fucking attack your every goddamn word, no matter what you say.  

I'm sick of fucking assholes like that, because it destroys thread after thread after thread, by turning it into nothing but another fucking prick-waving contest.

And yeah, this is coming from someone who used to be one of thoes assholes, but you know what?  I got the fuck over it, what the fuck is you people's excuse?  Hmm?

If you hate the cocksucker so much, then fucking leave, instead of poisoning the fucking well every chance you get, just because he dared say a word.

Otherwise, get the fuck over yourselves already, and lay off the lame fucking thread stalking.

Quote from: J Arcane;289292If you hate the cocksucker so much, then fucking leave, instead of poisoning the fucking well every chance you get, just because he dared say a word.

Good advice.

Pundy pity parties are always the best.

Quote from: RPGPundit;289182.................
I mean, what's the point really? Does anyone even care about free speech on this forum? Do they really want to preserve it? Because every time someone tells me "you're just like the RPG.net mods", .................

RPGPundit

I care.

From what I've seen you've been pretty fair.
 Every once in awhile you seem to let people push your buttons a little. But hey, that happens to me too )and plenty others).


- Ed C.

Quote from: brettmb;289222Free speech was not being attacked here. It was you that they were attacking.

Brett's right.

Sorry, Pundit, you're running into the problem advocates of free speech always face. Sometimes people will say things you don't like. They may even - my god! - criticise you.

Quit being a pussy. You create a super-tough-and-manly persona, working hard to stay anonymous - well, Internet Tough Guys who like to stay anonymous cop shit. You dish it out, you're going to have to eat some, too. That's just the way it is. You complaining that people attack you would be like me complaining people write long posts. Man up.

Quote from: RPGPunditif they attack me by claiming that I'm not allowing free speech

As far as I recall, nobody said that. Again you display the inability to contend with what people have actually said, instead of some bullshit you made up.

What they said was that you were ghettoising some rpgs solely on the basis of your own judgment that they weren't rpgs, ignoring mainstream opinion. That is, you were turning the place into your own personal wankfest.

Thus the comparisons with Uncle Ronny. He doesn't think D&D4e is an rpg, either. Guess what? I don't think Amber's an rpg, cos it doesn't use dice. But really if everyone who plays it thinks it's an rpg, well I'll go with the flow instead of crying like a little girl. I wouldn't try to get all Amber discussions moved to Off Topic in the hopes they'd die while at the same time claiming I was being perfectly objective and reasonable.

If moving discussions of games you think aren't rpgs but everyone else does to the Off Topic forum is not designed to shut them down, hoping they'll perish in Off Topic obscurity, then why do it?

Don't you recall your complaints when rpg.net put d20 in its own little ghetto, your claiming that it was their attempt to stifle discussion of d20? At least they didn't put discussion of d20 in Tangency Open and claim it wasn't even an rpg.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;289348Thus the comparisons with Uncle Ronny. He doesn't think D&D4e is an rpg, either.

Actually, I'm pretty sure he does. In fact, if you were to take that question across to the Forge I think you'd get a puzzled reaction.

The trouble with Poobutt's definitions, and what actually makes them inferior to the Forge definitions, is that RE's definitions imply from the beginning a broad church, while Poobutt's attempt to solidify the form. It seems a religious sort of urge: the harking back to the prophets and the Golden Age, the laying down of doctrine, the demonising of opponents.

So Poobutt's RPG Catholicism is rigid and unwilling to bend. Now that's irony!

Quote from: droog;289365Actually, I'm pretty sure he does. In fact, if you were to take that question across to the Forge I think you'd get a puzzled reaction.

Really? I'm surprised. I guess he's never said it explicitly, just with all that brain damage and child abuse and only-rpgs-with-stories-are-good nonsense I drew the natural conclusion.

But I'm definitely happy to be wrong in this case!

Quote from: droogIt seems a religious sort of urge: the harking back to the prophets and the Golden Age, the laying down of doctrine, the demonising of opponents.[/quoteSo Pundit's approach includes fewer gamers than even that fucked-up, self-contradictory, muddled, bullshit GNS.

Sad, sad.

I'm still reeling from surprise at being called a Forger. Poor Pundit, so caught up in his Swine War he thinks everyone's his enemy. Words of wisdom from M:-

(http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Film/Pix/gallery/2006/11/10/m3.jpg)

"When you can't tell your friends from your enemies, it's time to go."

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;289348Brett's right.

Sorry, Pundit, you're running into the problem advocates of free speech always face. Sometimes people will say things you don't like. They may even - my god! - criticise you.

This thread isn't about me. Its about how much others value free speech here.

QuoteQuit being a pussy. You create a super-tough-and-manly persona, working hard to stay anonymous - well, Internet Tough Guys who like to stay anonymous cop shit. You dish it out, you're going to have to eat some, too. That's just the way it is. You complaining that people attack you would be like me complaining people write long posts. Man up.

That wasn't the complaint.
The complaint was that no one seemed too interested in clarifying the fact that there is a VAST GULF of difference between me and an rpg.net mod or Ron Edwards in terms of how this site is run and how free speech is tolerated, which leads me to wonder if anyone even cares about that here.

QuoteAs far as I recall, nobody said that.

Then you haven't been reading much have you?
You haven't read the forge-thread where they have explicitly stated that I'm exactly like an RPG.net mod and that there's no difference between this place and the forge in terms of how we treat people or topics we don't like.
And that's patently untrue.

QuoteWhat they said was that you were ghettoising some rpgs solely on the basis of your own judgment that they weren't rpgs, ignoring mainstream opinion. That is, you were turning the place into your own personal wankfest.

Yes, that was your attack on me.
David R's compared me to Grand Moff Tarkin, implying that I was tyranically ruling this site with fear and an iron grip.
Peteramthor said I'm "RPGnet moderator material".

Now do you want to admit that you were wrong, or just shut the fuck up? Its wide open.

QuoteThus the comparisons with Uncle Ronny. He doesn't think D&D4e is an rpg, either.

Actually, he's pissing his pants with joy over 4e, considering it a triumph of Gamist play.

QuoteGuess what? I don't think Amber's an rpg, cos it doesn't use dice.

Using or not using dice doesn't change the fundamental nature of the game.
Deciding that "STORY" is more important than emulation or any other factor, or allowing the players to create the universe and forbidding the GM from saying no to them, all of those things do.

QuoteIf moving discussions of games you think aren't rpgs but everyone else does to the Off Topic forum is not designed to shut them down, hoping they'll perish in Off Topic obscurity, then why do it?

Many other people do not consider those RPGs, including more than a few more-honest Forgies. Hell, the authors of Dread even openly say so in their book!
They know that what they're doing has about as much to do (or less) as what RPGs had to do with Wargames.

And yes, I absolutely would prefer that all Forge-related discussion fade in obscurity. No question about it.
I'd certainly prefer that to them taking over this site.

QuoteDon't you recall your complaints when rpg.net put d20 in its own little ghetto, your claiming that it was their attempt to stifle discussion of d20? At least they didn't put discussion of d20 in Tangency Open and claim it wasn't even an rpg.

The difference would be that D20 is the most popular RPG system in the entire world, while Storygames are not RPGs, even according to the admittance of some of its strongest adherents. Others attempt to claim they're RPGs in order to parasitically feed off our hobby; but you can't honestly compare isolating a questionable game in off-topic to ghettoizing the most popular RPG in the world.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;289370So Pundit's approach includes fewer gamers than even that fucked-up, self-contradictory, muddled, bullshit GNS.

And with that blatant lie you could not possibly believe, you have apparently officially chosen to graduate into a full-blown Pundit-hater. Why I have no idea, but fine.

Yes, of course that must be true, I mean the Landmarks only include pretty well every game system described as an RPG from the early 70s until the late 90s, and 90+% of those that have come after that.
Obviously I'm the height of prejudiced exclusion.

Quote

"When you can't tell your friends from your enemies, it's time to go."

And of course, you self-absorbed piece of garbage, I imagine you would be more than happy to volunteer to be the guy who takes over?
We are few, and know each other well, Jimbob. You've wanted to determine "policy" on this site since you first came here with your tail between your legs after being kicked out of rpg.net. And it irks you that most of the people here would prefer my style of moderation to your own.

Again, perhaps if its my time to go, I should hand over this site to the Forgers and see how much you like their style of moderation?  See how long you survive here, and how long this site survives?

Let me assure you one thing: YOU will never be the one who gets to be in charge here. Ever.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;289371That wasn't the complaint.
The complaint was that no one seemed too interested in clarifying the fact that there is a VAST GULF of difference between me and an rpg.net mod or Ron Edwards in terms of how this site is run and how free speech is tolerated, which leads me to wonder if anyone even cares about that here.

Personally Pundit there is a huge difference between you, the rpg.net mods and Ron Edwards.  When you bring up the subject of free speech and its toleration,  you often run into individuals who chose the extreme approach to get a rise out of you.  Instead of a diplomatic approach they go right for the nuclear option.  I do not post enough nor am I controversial, but I do appreciate the atmosphere this site offers.  

As far as coming to your defense, I figured your well established to handle any crowd that appears in your forum. You have to look at with a business attitude.  Let your customers rant their opinions all over the board, besides many on here like the sound of their own voices.  Remember free speech does have reasonable limits, and you are the one who draws the line here.  I would just roll my eyes, bitch slap a few around and smoke my pipe.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;289348You create a super-tough-and-manly persona, working hard to stay anonymous -

And doing a piss poor job at that! :teehee:

Quote from: James J Skach;289392And doing a piss poor job at that! :teehee:

About as poor as some do at running a forum.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;289395About as poor as some do at running a forum.

RPGPundit

Fortunately for me, I don't wrap my existence up in it. It's a hobby, after all.

But you keep on with your bad self. As others have pointed out, you're quite amusing.

And you know that's coming from someone who totally agrees with you that GNS and Forge Theory is shit. I have from the beginning - see my first thread questioning the need for the term "Conflict Resolution." I just don't let that blind me to the fact that those games are RPG's.

you're setting yourself up for failure, IMHO, with this continued need to control that area of discussion. I'm disappointed that you don't have enough trust in the people here to respond adequately to that kind of "theory" discussion with cogent and devastating skill or to discuss mechanics without getting into the silly theory behind it.

And get out from behind your mask. Prove yourself better than that...

Just my two cents.

The problem isn't that. The problem is that if the Forgies are allowed to bring up theory in the main forum, they will bring it up ALL THE TIME; EVERYWHERE.  It is their standard operating procedure:

1. Fill the forum with users brought in from Storygames, Forget, etc.
2. turn the subject of every thread to include mention of either Forge Games or GNS theory. Recommend Dogs in the Vinyard for everything, talk about how certain problems can be solved by determining what the "agenda" is, etc etc.
3. Talk about GNS theory as if everyone was already accepting it to be proven, true, correct and useful.
4. At this point, the site is basically another extension of the Forge agenda.
5. However, if resistance is encountered, engage in conflicts at every turn, trying to make the other side seem like the disruptive ones as often as possible. Claim that the Forge doesn't look down on regular gamers, doesn't think anyone is brain damaged, fake offense and beg for moderator protection against "attacks" of people who are "hating for no reason". Call for an "emotionally safe environment".
6. Propose and promote your own people for moderator roles.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;289371This thread isn't about me. Its about how much others value free speech here.

Bullshit.  We value it just fine, or we wouldn't be here.

QuoteThe complaint was that no one seemed too interested in clarifying the fact that there is a VAST GULF of difference between me and an rpg.net mod or Ron Edwards in terms of how this site is run and how free speech is tolerated, which leads me to wonder if anyone even cares about that here.

No one gives two shits about Ron Edwards.  If you want to claim that victory, have at it, but the Forge hasn't been relevant since about ten minutes after their domain went up.  Let it go.  If they want to chat about twat dripping Forge theories over in Role Playing, let them have their fun.  When the rest of us get tired of it, we will join in, ridicule them to tears, and we can have some quiet in which to fight about how stupid 4e is.

QuoteDavid R's compared me to Grand Moff Tarkin, implying that I was tyranically ruling this site with fear and an iron grip.
Peteramthor said I'm "RPGnet moderator material".

I dig David R, and I don't think I have any problems with Peter either, but why do you care what they think?  Two guys out of a couple thousand.  They are torqued about something and sounded off like the rest of us pig-headed assholes around here.  The triumph is that pig-headed assholes like us can sound off all day long.  You want your defence for the free speech policies around here?  We continue to use it every fucking day.

QuoteThey know that what they're doing has about as much to do (or less) as what RPGs had to do with Wargames.

Make a wargame forum, make a non-trad RPG forum.  Done.  Let people bitch and moan about how they are ghettoised in there like tBP, all the while ignoring the irony that they can talk about Storygames and Forge games on Storygames and the Forge

Which is really what it boils down to.  There are places to talk about Forge games.  Of course, there is one central place where people can talk about Forge games to their heart's content.  theRPGsite is not in either of those lists.  Don't like it?  Plenty of places to start free forums out there, and getting your own domain isn't an economically crippling proposition anyway.  While vBulletin isn't free, phpBB is, as well as MyBB and a number of others.

Quote from: James J Skach;289397And get out from behind your mask. Prove yourself better than that...

Better than what? The fuckers who hate me so much that they spend ALL DAY pursuing and harrassing me here and on the blog, so that they can start trying to "teach me a lesson" in my personal or work life or go after my friends or loved ones?

What the fuck for?!

This is stupid fucking Swine thinking: "we shouldn't use stupid nicknames here, we should be SERIOUS and address each other by our first names, online IDs are childish and unintellectual".  What a load of crap.

RPGPundit

Yeah, as someone who has personally been harassed elsewhere on the web for comments made on this very fucking site, I can't say as I see any reason why I or anyone else should be expected to just share personally identifiable information for all the fucking world to see.  

Fuck that shit, you want to be flippant about your personal info, by all means, go right the fuck ahead, but don't you fucking dare presume to judge anyone else for not stooping to such carelessness.

Its part of the expectation that I should open myself up to be the fucking punching bag of those who cannot defeat me in the actual arena of ideas. So they dedicate themselves to character assassination and harassment, hoping that if they repeat things like "the RPGpundit is no different than an RPGnet mod" often enough, it'll become true, and if they insult and attack me often enough maybe i'll just become miserable enough to stop wanting to fight to defend gaming from the likes of them.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;289401The problem isn't that. The problem is that if the Forgies are allowed to bring up theory in the main forum, they will bring it up ALL THE TIME; EVERYWHERE.  It is their standard operating procedure:

And we know that, don't we? I mean, no small thanks to you, we are all well aware and can call them on it, no? But you don't seem to trust the people here to do that, apparently. No skin off my nose, but your hanlding the situation is...less than stellar, IMHO.

Quote from: RPGPundit;2894011. Fill the forum with users brought in from Storygames, Forget, etc.

Yay! More users!

Quote from: RPGPundit;2894012. turn the subject of every thread to include mention of either Forge Games or GNS theory. Recommend Dogs in the Vinyard for everything, talk about how certain problems can be solved by determining what the "agenda" is, etc etc.

Unless, of course, we call them on the bullshit when it rears it's ugly head.

Quote from: RPGPundit;2894013. Talk about GNS theory as if everyone was already accepting it to be proven, true, correct and useful.

Unless, of course, we call them on the bullshit when they try.

Quote from: RPGPundit;2894014. At this point, the site is basically another extension of the Forge agenda.

Only if we let it happen by not calling them on it - whcih, apparently, you think will happen.

Quote from: RPGPundit;2894015. However, if resistance is encountered, engage in conflicts at every turn, trying to make the other side seem like the disruptive ones as often as possible. Claim that the Forge doesn't look down on regular gamers, doesn't think anyone is brain damaged, fake offense and beg for moderator protection against "attacks" of people who are "hating for no reason". Call for an "emotionally safe environment".

That's already happened here no matter how much control you've attempted. And what happened? We called them on it and they withdrew.

Quote from: RPGPundit;2894016. Propose and promote your own people for moderator roles.

And how would this ever happen since you own the ficking site!


No, for some reason you've decided that in this case, you need to protect us from ourselves. That's not a good sign...

If I saw the job being done more often, then I'd feel a lot less worried. But sadly, people tend to seem to want to leave it to me to fight the battle.

RPGPundit

Quote from: J Arcane;289408Yeah, as someone who has personally been harassed elsewhere on the web for comments made on this very fucking site, I can't say as I see any reason why I or anyone else should be expected to just share personally identifiable information for all the fucking world to see.  

Fuck that shit, you want to be flippant about your personal info, by all means, go right the fuck ahead, but don't you fucking dare presume to judge anyone else for not stooping to such carelessness.

Flippant about my name? Carelessness? I don't think so. It's a conscious decision. Ask Pundy - I even requested my first username to be changed after I thought about it.

When Jackalope shows up to throw shit on me, I'll let you know. Otherwise, I find the personal nature breaks down barriers. I've got little to nothing to hide. Internet Harassment is the least of my worries - no offense.

And just for the record, I'll dare to presume to judge whomever I want. They can take or leave the judgment as they see fit. Unless, of course, this site has now taken to presume to tell me when I can and can't judge peoples' actions...

Quote from: RPGPundit;289411If I saw the job being done more often, then I'd feel a lot less worried. But sadly, people tend to seem to want to leave it to me to fight the battle.

RPGPundit

Name them, Pundit. Just because some of us disagree with your movement of Bill's thread - a thread with almost no hint, if any, of ideological theory crap and with lots of talk of mechanics - doesn't mean it's time to give up the ship. there's more ideological battling going on in any one 4e thread, hell on post, than was in that thread.

But this is good for clearing the air. It's obvious that there are those here, apparently even myself included, who aren't pure enough in thought and action for you. That's good to know.

Again, that's your decision, and only your decision, to make.  But there's not one damn thing wrong with wanting a little privacy, to suggest otherwise is absurd, and pretty much against everything I stand for.  You're basically demanding that someone else surrender their personal rights for what?  To prove a point of a fuckign message board?

Fuck that noise, and shame on you and everyone else who's played that card.

Quote from: RPGPundit;289409Its part of the expectation that I should open myself up to be the fucking punching bag of those who cannot defeat me in the actual arena of ideas. So they dedicate themselves to character assassination and harassment, hoping that if they repeat things like "the RPGpundit is no different than an RPGnet mod" often enough, it'll become true, and if they insult and attack me often enough maybe i'll just become miserable enough to stop wanting to fight to defend gaming from the likes of them.

RPGPundit

None of their yapping makes it more apparent than your own words. Hugo Chavez would be proud...

Viva la Revolution...or something!

Quote from: J Arcane;289415Again, that's your decision, and only your decision, to make.  But there's not one damn thing wrong with wanting a little privacy, to suggest otherwise is absurd, and pretty much against everything I stand for.  You're basically demanding that someone else surrender their personal rights for what?  To prove a point of a fuckign message board?

Fuck that noise, and shame on you and everyone else who's played that card.

As far as I know, J, I'm the only one who said it. And you can "shame on me" all you want. It's got little to no impact. It's not about proving a point on a message board. I'm not against him wanting privacy. But that ship sailed some time ago for him. I'm sorry if it's against everything you stand for. We will agree to disagree, I suppose.

Quote from: shalvayez;289280Now, the asslickers over at RPGnet look over here, and LAUGH, because they see what a trainwreck this place can be, due to douchenozzles like CavScout.

Fact is, I've seen worse trainwrecks in rpg.net than here, such as that guy who claimed he enjoyed having sex with his dog. Rpg.net has more of everything than this site, more posters, more moderation, more trainwrecks, more assholes, etc.

Quote from: RPGPundit;289401The problem isn't that. The problem is that if the Forgies are allowed to bring up theory in the main forum, they will bring it up ALL THE TIME; EVERYWHERE.  It is their standard operating procedure:

1. Fill the forum with users brought in from Storygames, Forget, etc.
2. turn the subject of every thread to include mention of either Forge Games or GNS theory. Recommend Dogs in the Vinyard for everything, talk about how certain problems can be solved by determining what the "agenda" is, etc etc.
3. Talk about GNS theory as if everyone was already accepting it to be proven, true, correct and useful.
4. At this point, the site is basically another extension of the Forge agenda.
5. However, if resistance is encountered, engage in conflicts at every turn, trying to make the other side seem like the disruptive ones as often as possible. Claim that the Forge doesn't look down on regular gamers, doesn't think anyone is brain damaged, fake offense and beg for moderator protection against "attacks" of people who are "hating for no reason". Call for an "emotionally safe environment".
6. Propose and promote your own people for moderator roles.

RPGPundit

I do think that GNS theory has the same intellectual value as the used diapers of my daughter. But even so, I wouldn't forbid its discussion in the roleplaying section. It's related to roleplaying, even if it's a bunch of crap.

And if anybody engaged in typical forgiewanker behavior here, well, you know... :forge:

Quote from: James J Skach;289412Otherwise, I find the personal nature breaks down barriers.

I do, too. I've found I'm less likely to both give and receive nasty personal attacks with something resembling my real name (I just omit my surname so that anyone googling up the more-significant-than-forum-blather writing won't get a zillion forum links in response, but it doesn't take much brainpower to find it out through various links).

But not everyone feels that way, and I respect that. Some prefer more privacy.

There's also the privacy of those close to you. It's the reason I don't mention a lot about my private life - not because I care about my own, but because it ties into those of others; if my friends and loved ones want to spill stuff online, they can do it themselves.

On the other hand, if you use a pseudonym, you'll cop more shit. It's a tradeoff, you can have more privacy but less respect, or less privacy and more respect.

I don't think this site is a "trainwreck", that's bollocks.

Pundit's taking a day or so off, I hope he cools down and gets some perspective. Those who enjoy attacking him all across unrelated threads and on his blog - ease up for a day or two, come on. Talk rpgs instead, terrible imposition on you, I know :p

Quote from: RPGPundit;289246But the point is I haven't. I haven't banned discussion on any game. I've just made the rule that those discussions have to happen on the right places for this forum. And for that, I get accused of being the same as someone who shuts down speech, or those who have banned thousands.

RPGPundit

Of course, it's an exaggeration.You're not the same like them. But moving discussions of RPGs such as Burning Wheel to Off Topic is a dirty tactic, it's a way of manipulation. I am very disappointed by that policy. It's great that in this site I'm allowed to tell you this (in rpg.net I would think twice before talking back to a mod, after everything I've seen there): I think you're wrong.

Please reconsider that policy.

Claudius, he's taking some time off. Let him have that time off.

Wouldn't you need time off if you were dealing with us?

If you've time on your hands to post on stuff that doesn't really matter, head over to the Design subforum!

Good grief!

Ned

Quote from: RPGPundit;289409hoping that if they repeat things like "the RPGpundit is no different than an RPGnet mod" often enough, it'll become true

RPGPundit

How is this different then what you do saying games from The Forge or Storygames not rpgs?   Do you think if you keep saying it over and over it will become true?

They are role playing games, no matter how often you say different.

Do I like them?   Hell no.   Someone in my group suggested playing Burning Wheel and I made it clear I had no interest in playing any games from The Forge.

But I understand, whether I like them or not they are rpgs.

....because by Pundit's definition - they really aren't Role Playing Games.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;289546....because by Pundit's definition - they really aren't Role Playing Games.


- Ed C.

Right, but that's in his mind.  However for the majority of the gamers out there they do recognize them as rpgs.

The problem I have with the Pundit's view (and I really don't have anything against him as a person) is his viewpoint is very elitist and does more to splinter a hobby that is in such a shape where this kind of thing is really not needed.

Now luckily most gamers don't go on message forums so what we really think doesn't matter and doesn't influance the hobby as a whole.

The Pundit is more then welcome to have his opinions and I welcome free speech, I will just disagree with them because he doesn't speak to how the majority of gamers feel, but more to how he and a minority of gamers feel.

I don't see why he has to divide gamers into specific groups.  I don't understand why he can't be happy playing what he enjoys and let others play what they enjoy.  We are all in the same hobby and people playing games I dislike doesn't in any way effect the game my group plays once a week.

QuoteThe problem I have with the Pundit's view (and I really don't have anything against him as a person) is his viewpoint is very elitist and does more to splinter a hobby that is in such a shape where this kind of thing is really not needed.

They started it.  And besides, is the loss of a tiny and irrelevant fringe really some great threat to roleplaying as we know it?  I can't say as I'd even notice if the entirety of the Forge and their games up and disappeared over night, nor would any of the groups I've played with in the last 10-15 years, and I don't think it would be remotely controversial to suggest that neither would the body of the roleplaying community at large.

Besides, there's plenty of sites already where they are free to spout whatever lunatic theories they desire, to shill games about the Holocaust played with Jenga tiles, or whatever stupid shit they're up to this week, so I don't see it as some great and terrible loss.

When you combine that with the fact that these people cannot refrain from expressing their utter and complete loathing for everything about regular RPGs and their players, you have an influence that is ultimately more disruptive than harmful.

Most any site on the internet is going to have certain groups of people that are just going to be persona non grata by default, the only difference is most other places would simply ban them outright the second their allegiances became known.  Shit, this site took fucking months to finally sanction such gems as KKK members and child molestors, I've yet to see anyone get outright banned just for talking about the Forge.  Not even blatant viral marketeers like we've had in the past.

Quote from: RPGPundit;289182Does anyone even care about free speech on this forum?

Do you? Because the longer I'm here, the less I believe your rhetoric about RPGsite being a place where folks don't get banned or only get banned for disruptive behavior.

Quote from: RPGPundit;289182Do they really want to preserve it? Because every time someone tells me "you're just like the RPG.net mods", or "you're just like Ron Edwards", and fucking NO ONE jumps in and says "no, in fact he isn't", its like they're telling me "I can't tell the difference between what you've accomplished here and what things are like over there".

Maybe that's because you are like them.

Quote from: RPGPundit;289182If no one really wants to defend the way things are run here, maybe I should start running them the way the rpg.net mods or Ron Edwards really do things?

You are already are - it's just not as blatant.

Seanchai

Quote from: shalvayez;289280Now, the asslickers over at RPGnet look over here, and LAUGH, because they see what a trainwreck this place can be, due to douchenozzles like CavScout.

It's only a trainwreck if you choose not to ignore people and their comments.

Seanchai

Quote from: Consonant Dude;289278This forum is too much about you, what you like, your wars and your attempts to "win". You said recently that it is possible to have culinary ideologies, political ideologies and yes, gaming ideologies. I agree. It's also possible to go over the fucking top about trivial matters such as Veal Tenderloin or Exalted. It's gotten to a point where everything is about you and what you like. And the extreme and futile lines that you draw between different gaming tastes.

I'm not sure this hasn't been about Pundy turning it up to 11 to get hits, generate discussion, etc..

Quote from: Consonant Dude;289278When people say you are acting like a RPG.net mod, they mean you are molding this place based on your own biased views, just like they do.

Personally, I say he's like a TBP mod because his rules are as flexible as May Lou Retton. When is speech a behavior versus speech? Only Pundy can tell us...

Also, people make the comparison because Pundy invites it. He, himself, compares this site and it's moderation to TBP and it's moderation. It's only natural that others follow suit...

Quote from: Consonant Dude;289278The appeal of RPGsite, from my perspective, was that you could talk about all roleplaying game matters and call people on their bullshit. There were no untouchable darling games here, no group-think and cliques. No need to resort to long bouts of subtle passive-aggressive attacks and hold grudges forever.

That's what I like about the RPGsite as well.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;289623................because his rules are as flexible as May Lou Retton. When is speech a behavior versus speech? Only Pundy can tell us...

Could you please spell her name correctly if you're going to use her for a pop culture reference ?

 Its MARY Lou Retton.

I had a teenage crush on her back when she won at that summer olympics.

Besides, Cincinnati has a Gymnestics training center that since then has trained many Olympic champions. This town takes gymnastics very seriously.

- Ed C.

Quote from: J Arcane;289553They started it.

They started it?

What are we?  5 years old?  No one started anything, there is no "war" or any of that crap.  They are gamers, just like us.  They are playing the games they like and we are playing the games we like.  It's possiable that we can coexisit in the same hobby and play different games.

Quote from: J Arcane;289553And besides, is the loss of a tiny and irrelevant fringe really some great threat to roleplaying as we know it?

Ok, then if they are irrelevant then just ignore them.  They aren't effecting your hobby (nor mine) and you aren't effecting theirs.  Some people like them and talk about them (like over on rpg.net and other places) and some people don't.

Quote from: RPGPundit;289182Does anyone even care about free speech on this forum? Do they really want to preserve it? Because every time someone tells me "you're just like the RPG.net mods", or "you're just like Ron Edwards", and fucking NO ONE jumps in and says "no, in fact he isn't", its like they're telling me "I can't tell the difference between what you've accomplished here and what things are like over there".  

Perhaps this wouldn't happen if you didn't behave in ways the rpg.net moderators do.  or worse.

I have seen you a couple of times (one even recently) argue with someone and then make the comment "Your arguement is so stupid I should ban you".

Not only is that abuse of "power" but that is actually worse then what rpg.net moderators do.

I am not saying you are like the rpg.net moderators or like Ron Edwards, I am simply pointing out what I see.

Quote from: The Game Guy;289626They started it?

What are we?  5 years old?  No one started anything, there is no "war" or any of that crap.  

The fuck there isn't.  I personally watched the Forge and it's ilk do fucking everything in their power to pollute the discourse on RPGnet, it's one of the reasons why, in all my years there, I had a mere handful of posts in the actual RPG forum.  I did all my RPG discussion on Tangency of all places.  

QuoteThey are gamers, just like us.

I think quite a few of them would take great offense to such an accusation.

QuoteThey are playing the games they like and we are playing the games we like.  It's possiable that we can coexisit in the same hobby and play different games.

They aren't interested in coexisting, they've made that abundantly clear by their behavior.

QuoteOk, then if they are irrelevant then just ignore them.

Irrelevant to the hobbby at large.  Quite relevant sadly to discussions of viral marketing invasions and interforum trolling.

QuoteThey aren't effecting your hobby (nor mine) and you aren't effecting theirs.

They are affecting the places I like to talk about my hobby, however.

QuoteSome people like them and talk about them (like over on rpg.net and other places) and some people don't.

And there's plenty of other places on the internet where the people who do like them are free to talk about them all day long.  Whole forums devoted to them in fact, forums in which discussion of the kinds of games I like are treated with the same hostility theirs are here.  Why can't they be happy with those places instead of invading here?

Furthermore, no one, not one person, in the entire history of this board, has been banned simply for discussing a Forge game.  Not one.  It's simply been decided that in order to stem the tide of the potential disruption that tends to occur when the Forge arrives in force on a general or traditional RPG forum, by designating discussion of said games to a different forum than the rest.  

EN World keeps a seperate forum for non-D&D games, because non-D&D games aren't what they're about.  RPGnet keeps a seperate forum for D&D games because they're mostly about Exalted and whatever game their friends wrote this week.  Why can't we have a seperate forum for stuff that our site is not about, hmm?

J. Arcane wins.

Quote from: The Game Guy;289538How is this different then what you do saying games from The Forge or Storygames not rpgs?   Do you think if you keep saying it over and over it will become true?

They are role playing games, no matter how often you say different.

Do I like them?   Hell no.   Someone in my group suggested playing Burning Wheel and I made it clear I had no interest in playing any games from The Forge.

But I understand, whether I like them or not they are rpgs.

That's not true. Some Forgie games are RPGs, but not all Forgie games are RPGs. You've got to examine them one by one. Burning Wheel is an RPG, but Universalis is clearly not an RPG. Primetime Adventures? I find it hard to call it an RPG. The Mountain Witch? Can you honestly call it an RPG?

Quote from: J Arcane;289553They started it.  And besides, is the loss of a tiny and irrelevant fringe really some great threat to roleplaying as we know it?  I can't say as I'd even notice if the entirety of the Forge and their games up and disappeared over night, nor would any of the groups I've played with in the last 10-15 years, and I don't think it would be remotely controversial to suggest that neither would the body of the roleplaying community at large.

Besides, there's plenty of sites already where they are free to spout whatever lunatic theories they desire, to shill games about the Holocaust played with Jenga tiles, or whatever stupid shit they're up to this week, so I don't see it as some great and terrible loss.

When you combine that with the fact that these people cannot refrain from expressing their utter and complete loathing for everything about regular RPGs and their players, you have an influence that is ultimately more disruptive than harmful.

If J Arcane is deluded, then I'm deluded too, because this is what I've seen, the same disdain for traditional gaming. My only comfort is that although they make a lot of noise in internet discussions, in real life they're completely irrelevant.

Quote from: J Arcane;289634The fuck there isn't.  I personally watched the Forge and it's ilk do fucking everything in their power to pollute the discourse on RPGnet, it's one of the reasons why, in all my years there, I had a mere handful of posts in the actual RPG forum.  I did all my RPG discussion on Tangency of all places.  

Ok, well if there is a war it only exists in your head and The Pundit's head.  But it exists nowhere in reality, because I only seem to hear about it here.   No one else is talking about it and no one else seems to know it exists.

Probably because people are busy playing games and fighting pointless wars that wont be won or lost.  You are just spinning your wheels.  Just play the games you enjoy and ignore the people who you dont want to here from

Quote from: J Arcane;289634I think quite a few of them would take great offense to such an accusation.

I hear people here say that but I have yet to see any sign from the people over at The Forge or Storygames say they are anything but gamers.

But then I dont hang out or read their forums, so I could have missed something.

Quote from: J Arcane;289634They aren't interested in coexisting, they've made that abundantly clear by their behavior.

I think you are reading too deeply into things and seeing things that arent there.

Quote from: J Arcane;289634Irrelevant to the hobbby at large.  Quite relevant sadly to discussions of viral marketing invasions and interforum trolling.

Your ignore list button is your friend

Quote from: J Arcane;289634They are affecting the places I like to talk about my hobby, however.

Again, your ingnore button is your freind.  If people ignore them then they dont get attention and they go away.

Quote from: J Arcane;289634And there's plenty of other places on the internet where the people who do like them are free to talk about them all day long.  Whole forums devoted to them in fact, forums in which discussion of the kinds of games I like are treated with the same hostility theirs are here.  Why can't they be happy with those places instead of invading here?

Because if this forum is going to be about true free speech which is what The RPG Pundit claims, then they should be able to post on here.  You then have the choice of not reading the threads or putting the people on ignore.  If enough people dont read the threads or ignore people then they will go away.

Otherewise, this forum isnt about true free speech.

Quote from: J Arcane;289634EN World keeps a seperate forum for non-D&D games, because non-D&D games aren't what they're about.  RPGnet keeps a seperate forum for D&D games because they're mostly about Exalted and whatever game their friends wrote this week.  Why can't we have a seperate forum for stuff that our site is not about, hmm?

Right, this is the same forum where people complained about rpg.net putting D&D into a seperate forum, yet its ok to do it with Forge and Story Games.

Sort of Hypocritical if you ask me

Quote from: Claudius;289671If J Arcane is deluded, then I'm deluded too, because this is what I've seen, the same disdain for traditional gaming. My only comfort is that although they make a lot of noise in internet discussions, in real life they're completely irrelevant.

If they are irrelevant then ignore them and move on.  Don't talk about them, don't post about them.

GetThe RPG Pundit to stop talking about them.  They less they are talked about the less people know about them and the are then minimized even more.

Quote from: The Game Guy;289687If they are irrelevant then ignore them and move on.  Don't talk about them, don't post about them.

GetThe RPG Pundit to stop talking about them.  They less they are talked about the less people know about them and the are then minimized even more.

Maybe you haven't noticed - but it really doesn't work that way or hasn't. Some people see a pattern of Forge apologists and promoters registering on forums ...then they flood a gaming forum with threads about forgie-style games and their take on things.

This is a part of that "war" that Pundit is talking about.

He'll probably hate this analogy - but if it were an Ayn Rand novel it would be like one of Ellsworth Toohey's whispering campaigns against or for something.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;289691Maybe you haven't noticed - but it really doesn't work that way or hasn't. Some people see a pattern of Forge apologists and promoters registering on forums ...then they flood a gaming forum with threads about forgie-style games and their take on things.

Well I don't see anything from The Forge or Storygames people and I haven't for awhile.  

And to make what I said before work, people have to actually ignore the thread.   Every time there was a thread by The Forge people or Storygames people everyone started jumping in and going after them.  That isn't ignoring them

Quote from: Koltar;289691This is a part of that Imaginary"war" that Pundit is talking about.

Just needed to correct that statement a bit

QuoteOk, well if there is a war it only exists in your head and The Pundit's head. But it exists nowhere in reality, because I only seem to hear about it here. No one else is talking about it and no one else seems to know it exists.

"I didn't see it happen, I wasn't there, so obviously it didn't happen and you're all delusional for believing it did."

Gotcha.  Thanks for making clear what an utterly useless endeavour it is to try and have a rational conversation with you.  

Must be hell for you reading the newspapers.

Quote from: J Arcane;289743"I didn't see it happen, I wasn't there, so obviously it didn't happen and you're all delusional for believing it did."

Gotcha.  Thanks for making clear what an utterly useless endeavour it is to try and have a rational conversation with you.  

Must be hell for you reading the newspapers.

No, that's not it at all.

The only time I have heard about this so-called war (so called because it doesn't exist) was out of The Pundit's mouth.  He tries to repeat that there is this "war" going on over and over in hopes that if he says the lie enough times it is true.  

The people over on Storygames aren’t talking about it; the people on rpg.net aren't talking about it.

Not because it’s some secret war, but because it comes from The Pundit's imagination.   He is the only one fighting this imaginary war.  Everyone else is off playing games and having fun.

The RPG Pundit is trying in vain to make himself important to the hobby.  I don't know if this is because of his low self esteem problem or what, but he makes a lot of shit up.   This war is one of those things he came up with to make himself look important and act as if he is "fighting for the common gamer".

The problem is he is speaking for himself.   There are plenty of gamers who are happy to play traditional games as well as games from Storygames.  I am not one of them, but there are plenty of people out there.

I am sure if there were more people who were even aware of his imaginary war they would even say that he doesn't speak for them.

The reason I don't hear about this "war" going on isn't because it is supersecret or just not being talked about, is because The Pundit is the one who came up with it and he is the only one who knows about it.

No matter how many false claims he makes that because of his war The Forge is less effective then they were or that he has had some effect on Storygames, none of it is true.

Again, I have nothing against The Pundit personally, but when he says something that isn't true (and it happens alot) I am going to say something.

"Does anyone here even CARE about Free Speech?"

That's not why I post here.  If I wanted that I'd post on my own blog, hang around on 4chan or something similar.

I'd rather the site focused more on being a high-quality RPG site and not a RPG site + Free Speechxorz site.  The Free Speechxorz encourages too many ass-hats and derails too many topics.

Not everyone uses the same word to describe them, but the events are still the same.  You're playing semantics.

Go talk to some people who were on RPGnet after the Forge closed it's theory forum how well those days went.  Go dig back in the records here for some of the forum invasions from the Forge and Storygames of the past.  We even had one case where a thread was found on Storygames all about how to invade sites like these to push their games.

You can stick your fucking head in the sand all you want, but the bottom line is, this shit happens, it's happened before, and it will happen again, unless steps are taken to curb the effect.  I've given the Forge and it's ilk the benefit of the doubt many a time, and every time they've betrayed my good faith by acting like a pack of virulent assholes.

So frankly, you can take your slander, and your naivete, and your ignorance, and stick it straight up your ass.  I'm not here on this board to listen to some little ingrate interloper impugn my experiences and my honesty, out of some misplaced sense of feel-good liberalism.

Quote from: Claudius;289671My only comfort is that although they make a lot of noise in internet discussions, in real life they're completely irrelevant.

Hey! I got a group to start playing Burning Wheel and they've never looked back.

J.Arcane: Thank you, for defending the truth.

RPGPundit

Quote from: J Arcane;289794Not everyone uses the same word to describe them, but the events are still the same.  You're playing semantics.

That would be so if I had ever read anyone even discussing going to sites (be it this one or other ones) in any fashion, worded in such a way that no matter how you read it that it was clear they were out to wreck the hobby or change how sites discuss games.   None of them.

Quote from: J Arcane;289794Go talk to some people who were on RPGnet after the Forge closed it's theory forum how well those days went.  Go dig back in the records here for some of the forum invasions from the Forge and Storygames of the past.  We even had one case where a thread was found on Storygames all about how to invade sites like these to push their games.

They may have gone to other sites to discuss their games to make people aware of their existance.  But how is that different then The Pundit or any other author going to other sites and posting about their own game?

I want an answer, not an insult.  I am trying to have a serious conversation.

Quote from: J Arcane;289794You can stick your fucking head in the sand all you want, but the bottom line is, this shit happens, it's happened before, and it will happen again, unless steps are taken to curb the effect.  I've given the Forge and it's ilk the benefit of the doubt many a time, and every time they've betrayed my good faith by acting like a pack of virulent assholes.

Then you put them on your ignore list, as well as everyone else, the thread vanishes off the front page nad it is forgotten.

Quote from: J Arcane;289794So frankly, you can take your slander, and your naivete, and your ignorance, and stick it straight up your ass.

Who have I slandered?  No one.

Well, at the very least, this thread hasn't devolved into another acrimonious back and forth.

QuoteThen you put them on your ignore list, as well as everyone else, the thread vanishes off the front page nad it is forgotten.

Since you're such a big fan of ignore lists, I take it you won't have any problem with me doing so to you, since at this point you've made it abundantly clear you are nothing more than a deliberately obtuse troll, the latest holy warrior in a long line that I'm frankly sick to fucking death of dealing with.

Quote from: J Arcane;289817Since you're such a big fan of ignore lists, I take it you won't have any problem with me doing so to you, since at this point you've made it abundantly clear you are nothing more than a deliberately obtuse troll, the latest holy warrior in a long line that I'm frankly sick to fucking death of dealing with.

Sure, since its clear that I am not a troll, but I am clearly pointing out how wrong you and The RPG Pundit are and you aren't looking to have an actuall conversation.

You are just like The RPG Pundit, you want to hear your own voice and don't care if what you are saying is wrong.

I think I will do the same thing and put you on my ignore list as well, because you just arent worth my time either.

Quote from: Aos;289815Well, at the very least, this thread hasn't devolved into another acrimonious back and forth.

It's my fault somewhat.  I should have seen that J Arcane is just like The RPG Pundit and they don't care about the truth, they just want to spout out what they want to hear, no matter how wrong they are.

I put J Arcane on my ignore list and I won't bother with either of these threads anymore.

QuoteYou are just like The RPG Pundit, you want to hear your own voice and don't care if what you are saying is wrong.

What is there to be "wrong" about?  I WAS FUCKING THERE YOU FUCKING PRICK.

You don't know a goddamn thing about what happened, and now you're presuming to pass judgement on my honesty in relating events that actually fucking happened to me, and yet you don't understand why I am angry at you?

Go eat a fucking dick, you weaselly little shit.  No one gets away with calling me a liar.

Quote from: J Arcane;289829What is there to be "wrong" about?  I WAS FUCKING THERE YOU FUCKING PRICK.

You don't know a goddamn thing about what happened, and now you're presuming to pass judgement on my honesty in relating events that actually fucking happened to me, and yet you don't understand why I am angry at you?

Go eat a fucking dick, you weaselly little shit.  No one gets away with calling me a liar.

Dude, J, chill out. Of course he's getting away with calling you that, just like you're getting away with calling whoever you want whatever you want. This is the Internet.

Quote from: Imperator;289836Dude, J, chill out. Of course he's getting away with calling you that, just like you're getting away with calling whoever you want whatever you want. This is the Internet.

I apologize (to you and the rest, not him).

The one thing that is sure to get under my skin is calling me a liar.  I'm many things, but dishonest is not one of them, and I take great exception to people suggesting otherwise.

Quote from: The Game Guy;289822Sure, since its clear that I am not a troll, but I am clearly pointing out how wrong you and The RPG Pundit are and you aren't looking to have an actuall conversation.

You are just like The RPG Pundit, you want to hear your own voice and don't care if what you are saying is wrong.

I think I will do the same thing and put you on my ignore list as well, because you just arent worth my time either.

You're fucking hilarious. You come on here, claim I'm the ONLY one who sees the Forge ever behaving badly, then J.Arcane shows up and says he did too, and now you say "well its just you two guys too"; he posts a shitload of specific instances where they behaved exactly as I'd delineated, you claim its irrelevant and keep insisting that "no one sees them doing this but you.. and him", and yet HE'S the one who isn't looking to have an actual conversation?

Fuck you.

RPGPundit

It's not that Mike L guy is it? (i think that was his name).

Mike S. Shit, it certainly could be!

Quote from: RPGPundit;289844Mike S. Shit, it certainly could be!

I think Mike S was the Cthulhutech guy wasn't he?  The guy who harassed me across the internet for calling it vaporware?

This guy showed up after one of the recent WEG/D6 threads to play the glorious defender, but I mostly ignored him because I've pretty much written off WEG at this point.

Quote from: J Arcane;289845I think Mike S was the Cthulhutech guy wasn't he?  The guy who harassed me across the internet for calling it vaporware?

This guy showed up after one of the recent WEG/D6 threads to play the glorious defender, but I mostly ignored him because I've pretty much written off WEG at this point.

Nah, he was a WEG guy, had some fan forums...

Quote from: One Horse Town;289848Nah, he was a WEG guy, had some fan forums...

Ahh, OK.  I knew I knew a Mike Something, just not the same one I was thinking of apparently.

I didn't know about that stuff. I did know he was a regular stalker on my blog.

RPGPundit

Quote from: The Game Guy;289822Sure, since its clear that I am not a troll, but I am clearly pointing out how wrong you and The RPG Pundit are and you aren't looking to have an actuall conversation.

Nope, you're trolling right now actually.

Members of the Forge routinely went to gaming messageboards and posted glowing reviews of Forge games in effort to use viral marketting techniques to bring more attention to the, typically emo-tourism style, Forge games being shat out by them. This was history and not some lie told by a hadfull of members here. Since Pundit took an anti-swine stance against the elitist Forge twats who claimed that traditional gamers really weren't having fun with their games (like some of the current tripe from 4E Zealots), Pundit and this forum were specifically targetted for viral marketting attempts.

You're new here, so it is understandible that you don't know anything but heresay about this forum, but why don't you look through some of the archived threads. You'll find more than enough evidence of attempts by Forgists to conduct a viral marketting campaign in their favor on this messageboard.

Quote from: The Game Guy;289787The problem is he is speaking for himself.   There are plenty of gamers who are happy to play traditional games as well as games from Storygames.  I am not one of them, but there are plenty of people out there.

It's very true. I know some gamers who have played over 150 sessions of Hackmaster, but also play Burning Wheel, Dogs in the Vineyard, Sorceror and so on. And Cthulhu is an old favourite of theirs. Having gamed with them in their traditional games, I can honestly say they're quite normal gamers. They portray their characters in interesting or at least amusing ways, they argue about the rules, they eat lots of junk food, they go through periods of not knowing each week which day their game will be or what they're playing, but still always manage to do something on some day - and so on.

On the other hand, they consider diceless an ambomination unto Gygax, and not to be tolerated.

If there were a genuine "traditional" vs Forger "war", this would all be impossible.

None of this changes the fact that many of the Forgers hate "traditional" gaming and think we're all freaks. It's just really overblown to consider it a "war". It's like the "canon wars" on the Traveller mailing list, or the "real history wars" on the Ars Magica mailing list - nine-tenths of all the aggressive "you must play this way or you're doing it wrong!" comes from the lonely nerds who haven't gamed for twenty years because no-one will game with them.

Also, Forgers are quite good at shilling for their mates. They all vote for each-other in indie game awards and that sort of thing. But I mean, that's just advertising, that's not a war. It'd be like saying your mum is at war when she tells all her friends that you're an excellent violinist and everyone should come to your concert.

I don't really think of these sorts of conflicts as a "war", a war implies two sides, concomitant hostilities, etc.  I'm not barging into Forge forums and loudly trumpeting my latest Fallout-knockoff RPG project, or telling them how awful their way of gaming is.  There's no front here.

No, I think of them more in the same way I think about Something Awful or 4chan forum invasions.  Someone on some board says something or does something or likes something they don't (or in some cases, something they do), and next thing you know there's a swarm of them on your door, popping up faster than even the most overzealous mod can ban them, and you just have to ride it out until it goes away and hope they don't tear the place apart i nthe meantime.  It's more like a vermin infestation.  Individually they'd be insignificant trolls, the harm comes when they swarm in great numbers, or start working their way in through the walls until before you know it they're all over the place.

I've seen it go both ways, and either way it's irritating as shit, so I prefer to post to a place that's smart enough to lay down proper rat traps and line the perimeter with poison.

Going with that analogy, a lot of us here are dedicated bug-squashers. Maybe it comes from my work as a cook, you have to be paranoid about vermin.

I mean look at the welcome that We All Had Names bloke got - he was flogged out of here. All that "unless it's a narrative with meaning it's not a real rpg" nonsense gets stomped on quickly by a dozen posters. I mean, name a Forger who came here and managed a postcount over a few hundred before skulking off?

Sure, in principle they could infest the place overnight in large numbers, but let's face it - they don't exist in large numbers anymore. (Cue Pundit stepping in to take credit for that.)

So when Pundit wants to use moderator powers to try to marginalise these guys, what he's really saying is that he doesn't trust us. He thinks we're naive children, and only his brilliant wisdom and great courage can possibly defend us from a bunch of cocksmocks, nine-tenths of whom never game and just sit there in their parents' basements caressing copies of games nobody plays and dreaming and singing with tears in their eyes, someday, someday I'll be beautiful.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;289897I mean look at the welcome that We All Had Names bloke got - he was flogged out of here. All that "unless it's a narrative with meaning it's not a real rpg" nonsense gets stomped on quickly by a dozen posters. I mean, name a Forger who came here and managed a postcount over a few hundred before skulking off?

And here's what that Jason chap (I think he created Grey Ranks) said about us :

QuoteI'm having a pretty involved conversation over at TheRPGSite, which has been very interesting. It started as a thread about the Indie RPG Awards, and I registered and waded in when they started talking about Grey Ranks. I offered to answer questions and correct any misapprehensions and a number of thoughtful people took me up on it. They are asking some challenging questions and it's been very good for me to formulate cogent answers. It's making me realize how insular my gaming/Internet world is - why haven't I been asked these questions before now? We need better critical faculties and mechanisms as a community

http://planet-sg.ogrecave.com/index.php?s=therpgsite

The problem is the Pundit has no fucking imagination.

Regards,
David R

As nice as it is to see someone from that community getting a fucking clue, the last thing I would like to see is them treating our site as some kind of Forgey boot camp.  I'm not interested in providing a public service to people who have no respect for me.

Y'know I respect you J, but it's not about that at all. It's about having discussions on this site without the groupthink that the Pundit seems to want to cultivate and which the Forge suffers from.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;289903Y'know I respect you J, but it's not about that at all. It's about having discussions on this site without the groupthink that the Pundit seems to want to cultivate and which the Forge suffers from.

Regards,
David R

What group think?  The incredible mass of traditional RPGs released since the 70s and the wide variety of tastes regarding said mass isn't enough diversity for you?

Do we really have to let a bunch of wacky irrelevant nonsense clutter up otherwise normal conversations?  Would you want some Stormfront jackhole rambling about the ZOG conspiracy in the middle of an otherwise normal political discussion board?  Would you let Erich von Danniken nutjobs interrupt reasonable conversation on the origin of the Sumerian civilization on an archaeology board?

There's plenty of variety of ideas on this site without having to entertain every whacko discredited theory out there.

Quote from: J Arcane;289908What group think?  The incredible mass of traditional RPGs released since the 70s and the wide variety of tastes regarding said mass isn't enough diversity for you?

The groupthink that is defined by the term Swine, War and "this is not an rpg". Of course there is diversity and I would like to think there's place in this diversity for nontraditional games. As long as people behave in a civil manner, where's the harm. The tone of this site is about calling people out on their BS. I hope this applies to trad games as well as nontrad games.

QuoteDo we really have to let a bunch of wacky irrelevant nonsense clutter up otherwise normal conversations?  Would you want some Stormfront jackhole rambling about the ZOG conspiracy in the middle of an otherwise normal political discussion board?  Would you let Erich von Danniken nutjobs interrupt reasonable conversation on the origin of the Sumerian civilization on an archaeology board?

What has this got to with rpgs ? I mean when we see people behaving like wankers when talking about games we call them out on it. You're talking an extreme position when there is a sensible middle ground.

QuoteThere's plenty of variety of ideas on this site without having to entertain every whacko discredited theory out there.

And when those discredited theories come up by all means attack them but when gamers want to talk about games even games you may not like, this should be the place for it.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;289912The groupthink that is defined by the term Swine, War and "this is not an rpg".

If there is "groupthink" on this subject, I'm sure not seeing it, considering whenever any of those terms comes up it results in a flood of people like you throwing a goddamn fit about it.  

QuoteOf course there is diversity and I would like to think there's place in this diversity for nontraditional games. As long as people behave in a civil manner, where's the harm. The tone of this site is about calling people out on their BS. I hope this applies to trad games as well as nontrad games.

Except that "non-trad" games are at their root fundamentally based on BS, and so all you're effectively suggesting here is that we simply let run rampant the announcement of things that are almost guaranteed to cause flames and disruption.

QuoteWhat has this got to with rpgs ? I mean when we see people behaving like wankers when talking about games we call them out on it. You're talking an extreme position when there is a sensible middle ground.

I'm simply using examples of equally discredited and nonsensical fringe theories in other fields as a means of analogy.

QuoteAnd when those discredited theories come up by all means attack them but when gamers want to talk about games even games you may not like, this should be the place for it.

Regards,
David R

The entire Forge/Storygames milieu is based fundamentally on theories that are, indeed, quite discredited.  All allowing them to run rampant is going to do is ensure more endless flames than this site already has, and frankly I think we can both agree that there's already plenty of that.

You're not really thinking this out here.  You know what will happen if you get what you claim to want.  Why would you want to bring that upon this site?

Okay, JArcane has just said he doesn't want any more flames on this forum.

...

I think I need a strong cup of coke and some cheetos to revive me.

Quote from: J Arcane;289915If there is "groupthink" on this subject, I'm sure not seeing it, considering whenever any of those terms comes up it results in a flood of people like you throwing a goddamn fit about it.

I've never really seen a flood but I'm glad I'm doing my part. But look at the Pundit's recent posts about the subject. Obviously he thinks that all the regulars here aren't doing their part in the WAR effort, so even though you don't see the groupthink, I think there's an attempt to cultivate it.

QuoteExcept that "non-trad" games are at their root fundamentally based on BS, and so all you're effectively suggesting here is that we simply let run rampant the announcement of things that are almost guaranteed to cause flames and disruption.

Not really. See for examples Bill's thread. And why are you so worried about flame wars and disruptions ? Take a look at the D&D edition wars threads. It happens. So what.

QuoteI'm simply using examples of equally discredited and nonsensical fringe theories in other fields as a means of analogy.

Then your analogy is flawed. Talking theory is one thing but the fact is, people play these games and as I have always argued, the gameplay is about the same as trad games even though the design aspects may be dodgy and some of it's players think they are doing something more sophisticated than regular gaming.

QuoteThe entire Forge/Storygames milieu is based fundamentally on theories that are, indeed, quite discredited.  All allowing them to run rampant is going to do is ensure more endless flames than this site already has, and frankly I think we can both agree that there's already plenty of that.

Like I said theory is one thing but folks talking about the games they like even if they are Forge games is another. And really how many people talk about these games anyway? Most of the time they come up because the Pundit just can't leave them alone.

QuoteYou're not really thinking this out here.  You know what will happen if you get what you claim to want.  Why would you want to bring that upon this site?

Bring what on to this site, J ? Discussions like the ones we had about We All Had Names or Grey Ranks or Bill's threads....I would even add the threads Gleichman has started...? I thought they were great. I would think that if people were registering just to shill games - whatever type of games - they would receive a nasty reception.

Regards,
David R

Maybe I'm off topic here I dont know. (I dont really think thats possible though) But it seems to me that the forgie/storygames jack offs that come here are either looking to shill, or looking for a fight. By arguing back and forth with them you are merely fueling them. I know you are just trying to defend your point of veiw. But it seems to me that posting a simple :forge: then ignoring them seems like a better idea. Then you dont fall into the trap they want of the back and forth.

:shrug: I think I've done enough mouthing off. Seems to me that if these Forge types come sniffing around here because we talk about their games, at least get a productive conversation out of them. Maybe all Forge talk (inculding games) should be banned, this way everyone here is happy joy and we can go about our merry way.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;289984:shrug: I think I've done enough mouthing off. Seems to me that if these Forge types come sniffing around here because we talk about their games, at least get a productive conversation out of them. Maybe all Forge talk (inculding games) should be banned, this way everyone here is happy joy and we can go about our merry way.

Regards,
David R

Well my comment was directed against the shills and douche bags. Which I do not consider you to be. Your back and forth with J Arcane was an interesting read. Conversations like that I think are good and though provoking. But others are just arguements for the sake of arguements. Or to purposely fuck with people.

Sorry I though I should clarify my thoughts on the subject.

Hippos are the most dangerous animals in Africa.

Quote from: Aos;289990Hippos are the most dangerous animals in Africa.

Zombie pygmy hippos are the most dangerous in the Brookfield Zoo this Chicago Gameday.

Quote from: RPGPundit;289209It is acceptable to post links, now, on that thread now that it's in the Off Topic section.  it just proves though that allowing Forgespeak in the main forum would lead to the shills like Kubasik showing up and people posting links and generally trying to promote a philosophy that is utterly toxic to RPGs.

RPGPundit

This forum prospers on hate, vitriol and bile. I suspect the 4e thing has dragged on for as long as it has simply because the Forge-crew hasn't said anything particularly outrageous in the past year. It's a dumb policy to push Forge-games and Forge-likes into Off-topic, and it's my biggest gripe with you as a moderator. Otherwise you're OK, though the Pundit persona is occasionally a bit tiresome.

I have yet to even see what a Forge "game" is. Are the games worthy of the hatred, or just the creators and the cliques the "games" attract?
 
 Are their any Forge freebies that I can download and pick apart?

One other thing:

We do have the best discussion of Forge games going. I very often feel those are the intellectual high-points of this forum, and I don't like the Forge stuff getting shuffled off because of that. I think it's a Nietzsche quote that "Great enemies make great men" or some such.

Quote from: shalvayez;290116I have yet to even see what a Forge "game" is. Are the games worthy of the hatred, or just the creators and the cliques the "games" attract?

Well, they come in all shapes, much like traditional games.

So to make a collective judgment on whether the games are worthy of hatred (or praise for that matter) would be misguided. Same with the creators. They're just people, you know.

The cliques? Yeah, there are certain trends I don't care for, others I actively dislike.  

Quote from: shalvayez;290116Are their any Forge freebies that I can download and pick apart?

There are probably several, usually they are drafts or demos. Off the top of my head, The Shadow of Yesterday that is available free online to browse. It's not a .pdf to download, though.

It ain't going to paint a complete and accurate picture of Forge games anymore than perusing one of Phoenix Command, Amber, Werewolf, Risus or D&D would give you the picture on "Traditional games according to Pundit".

Google a lot, check out some blogs, The Forge or Story-Games and you should find demos and freebies. I'm out of touch with those communities so I can't help much.

Quote from: Consonant Dude;290187There are probably several, usually they are drafts or demos. Off the top of my head, The Shadow of Yesterday that is available free online to browse. It's not a .pdf to download, though.

The Shadow of Yesterday is actually closer to a traditional RPG than a forge game.

Quote from: brettmb;290215The Shadow of Yesterday is actually closer to a traditional RPG than a forge game.

Is that Clinton's game? I always mix it up with a different one. If so, how can you get any more forgey?

Quote from: HinterWelt;290219Is that Clinton's game? I always mix it up with a different one. If so, how can you get any more forgey?

His games are very unforge-like. He'll even tell you so.

Quote from: brettmb;290220His games are very unforge-like. He'll even tell you so.

But he founded the forge right? Does that not make him forgey?

Yes, but his design principles are very traditional.

Quote from: brettmb;290258Yes, but his design principles are very traditional.

Ahh, understood.